[Camelo Thread Part 17] - Denver makes trade offer p58

[god shammgod]

they used the nets to try to establish the cost of melo to other teams, they knew he probably wasn't going there. so now they're asking for a similar deal from us but they know they won't get it. this plan has worked though, they'll get us to pay more then we would have liked.

They successfully established a cost of Melo for teams that would not have a shot at him in free agency. The "deal" with the Nets did not establish a cost for the Knicks (or Lakers for that matter)

i said they know they won't get that from us, they'll get us to increase our offer though. in that way, they were successful.

[BLACKFEET 2010]

Any new word from "Lockdown Bobby"?

[Thugger HBC]

they used the nets to try to establish the cost of melo to other teams, they knew he probably wasn't going there. so now they're asking for a similar deal from us but they know they won't get it. this plan has worked though, they'll get us to pay more then we would have liked.

They successfully established a cost of Melo for teams that would not have a shot at him in free agency. The "deal" with the Nets did not establish a cost for the Knicks (or Lakers for that matter)

i said they know they won't get that from us, they'll get us to increase our offer though. in that way, they were successful.

My thoughts exactly.

[shrink]

There is a hidden problem when DEN's front office publicly asks for the moon.

DEN fans see that, and when the actual trade goes down for much less, they are going to feel like their front office lost the trade. They already put tremendous value on their own players, so they see the offer and think, "Of course they should get all of this for Car-Melo freakin' Anthony!!!"

When this trade happens and DEN's share is more reflective of their bad bargaining position, instead of just Melo getting a black eye, "losing" the trade is going to damage the reputation of the front office too.

[seren]

Question: If it comes down to taking on bad contracts vs. giving up youth, what would you prefer?

[Marty McFly]

Any new word from "Lockdown Bobby"?

[K_ick_God]

How is the Nets' offer even any good anymore?

Favors looks pretty bad. Yeah he's young, so what. He hasn't even shown any flashes of being a standout player. He looks ordinary.

The Nets have the 6th worst record this season so the 6th pick in a bad draft is nothing earth shattering. But if they get Melo, there are three teams ahead of them but in striking distance so the pick that Denver gets could be 10th. In a bad draft, that is not a particularly exciting asset. It won't help them rebuild very much. The rest of the Nets' picks are uncertain or poor, like the Lakers' pick.

Maybe the Nets are out of it for good or maybe not, and maybe Melo would still cave, but their offer is not that much better than ours if it's even better at all.

Felton is as good as Harris but on a better contract. Chandler, Gallo, who are both good assets and very young but already established players. And we can send them two picks.

[knicks742]

Question: If it comes down to taking on bad contracts vs. giving up youth, what would you prefer?

Definately bad contracts. Third max is a pipe dream in my view so I would rather keep as much talent as possible.

[towelie]

Question: If it comes down to taking on bad contracts vs. giving up youth, what would you prefer?

Definately bad contracts. Third max is a pipe dream in my view so I would rather keep as much talent as possible.

Same. I see the angle seren is playing here, as he doesn't believe Felton can be part of a winning championship team, or that Melo/Amar'e isn't worth it if it doesn't include Paul/Deron/Dwight in the future...

But I think a core of Felton/Melo/Amar'e is worth building around, and if taking bad contracts allows us to keep say Fields and Gallo, or Fields and Chandler, I'd easily welcome back Harrington.

Also, constantly starphucking over a 3rd star is just too exhausting. Once we get Melo and Amar'e, I'd rather start building from there, instead of tearing it down even further in 2012 to add another max.

[MaseInYourFace]

How is the Nets' offer even any good anymore?

Favors looks pretty bad. Yeah he's young, so what. He hasn't even shown any flashes of being a standout player. He looks ordinary.

The Nets have the 6th worst record this season so the 6th pick in a bad draft is nothing earth shattering. But if they get Melo, there are three teams ahead of them but in striking distance so the pick that Denver gets could be 10th. In a bad draft, that is not a particularly exciting asset. It won't help them rebuild very much. The rest of the Nets' picks are uncertain or poor, like the Lakers' pick.

Maybe the Nets are out of it for good or maybe not, and maybe Melo would still cave, but their offer is not that much better than ours if it's even better at all.

Felton is as good as Harris but on a better contract. Chandler, Gallo, both good assets and very young who are established players. And we can send them two picks.

Good analysis. This is the type of analysis that gets overlooked amongst the hype machine.

[Dr. Detfink]

Melo has been on fire...he's scoring in ridiculous sums and what little hope there was getting him in a trade, I am almost convinced that Denver is going to roll the dice with the new CBA and offer on the table.

Whatever the Knicks are offering is nowhere close to what Melo is worth. Donnie knows that. Denver knows that. They are screwed either way.

Don't be surprised if the Knicks don't get Melo at the deadline.

[Knicksin2011]

Definately bad contracts. Third max is a pipe dream in my view so I would rather keep as much talent as possible.

Agreed...the third max is probably going to have to come via trade if it makes sense to do it at all. Keep the young assets (Fields/Gallo/Mosgov) for a possible trade next year at the deadline. I'd take on Harrington for Buike if it meant we could preserve the young core plus Melo and STAT.

[god shammgod]

How is the Nets' offer even any good anymore?

Favors looks pretty bad. Yeah he's young, so what. He hasn't even shown any flashes of being a standout player. He looks ordinary.

The Nets have the 6th worst record this season so the 6th pick in a bad draft is nothing earth shattering. But if they get Melo, there are three teams ahead of them but in striking distance so the pick that Denver gets could be 10th. In a bad draft, that is not a particularly exciting asset. It won't help them rebuild very much. The rest of the Nets' picks are uncertain or poor, like the Lakers' pick.

Maybe the Nets are out of it for good or maybe not, and maybe Melo would still cave, but their offer is not that much better than ours if it's even better at all.

Felton is as good as Harris but on a better contract. Chandler, Gallo, who are both good assets and very young but already established players. And we can send them two picks.

you're right but perception is everything. at the time of the offer it was accepted that it was very good for denver. the same way someone said we don't have the pieces and everyone repeated it. perception becomes reality. now all of a sudden denver has figured out a way for us to make an offer as good as the nets, if not better.

[K_ick_God]

How is the Nets' offer even any good anymore?

Favors looks pretty bad. Yeah he's young, so what. He hasn't even shown any flashes of being a standout player. He looks ordinary.

The Nets have the 6th worst record this season so the 6th pick in a bad draft is nothing earth shattering. But if they get Melo, there are three teams ahead of them but in striking distance so the pick that Denver gets could be 10th. In a bad draft, that is not a particularly exciting asset. It won't help them rebuild very much. The rest of the Nets' picks are uncertain or poor, like the Lakers' pick.

Maybe the Nets are out of it for good or maybe not, and maybe Melo would still cave, but their offer is not that much better than ours if it's even better at all.

Felton is as good as Harris but on a better contract. Chandler, Gallo, who are both good assets and very young but already established players. And we can send them two picks.

you're right but perception is everything. at the time of the offer it was accepted that it was very good for denver. the same way someone said we don't have the pieces and everyone repeated it. perception becomes reality. now all of a sudden denver has figured out a way for us to make an offer as good as the nets, if not better.

Definitely, and the perception of lottery picks is the most overrated quantity in the NBA.

I am dead set against offering the Nuggets Mozgov or Fields, but if I'm Denver, I'd rather build a deal around one of Mozgov or Fields, one of Gallo or Chandler, with Randolph (or a pick) included, than to take the average-looking Derrick Favors and the 6th-10th pick in this year's bad draft, plus a grab bag of mediocre/poor picks.

And we can throw in 1) another pick (2014) and/or 2) taking bad contracts because the Nets can't do that -- they want to go for Paul.

Even if someone disagrees with what Denver should prefer, there is no way that the above analysis (or any combination of our assets) compared to the Nets' assets is not close. It is definitely close. But the media are idiots and their ability to fairly and intelligently evaluate anything is P-poor.

[GONYK]

Melo has been on fire...he's scoring in ridiculous sums and what little hope there was getting him in a trade, I am almost convinced that Denver is going to roll the dice with the new CBA and offer on the table.

Whatever the Knicks are offering is nowhere close to what Melo is worth. Donnie knows that. Denver knows that. They are screwed either way.

Don't be surprised if the Knicks don't get Melo at the deadline.

LOL

Because Denver forgot what Melo could do, and now, all of a sudden, his play reminded them?

[towelie]

How is the Nets' offer even any good anymore?

Favors looks pretty bad. Yeah he's young, so what. He hasn't even shown any flashes of being a standout player. He looks ordinary.

The Nets have the 6th worst record this season so the 6th pick in a bad draft is nothing earth shattering. But if they get Melo, there are three teams ahead of them but in striking distance so the pick that Denver gets could be 10th. In a bad draft, that is not a particularly exciting asset. It won't help them rebuild very much. The rest of the Nets' picks are uncertain or poor, like the Lakers' pick.

Maybe the Nets are out of it for good or maybe not, and maybe Melo would still cave, but their offer is not that much better than ours if it's even better at all.

Felton is as good as Harris but on a better contract. Chandler, Gallo, who are both good assets and very young but already established players. And we can send them two picks.

you're right but perception is everything. at the time of the offer it was accepted that it was very good for denver. the same way someone said we don't have the pieces and everyone repeated it. perception becomes reality. now all of a sudden denver has figured out a way for us to make an offer as good as the nets, if not better.

Definitely, and the perception of lottery picks is the most overrated quantity in the NBA.

I am dead set against offering the Nuggets Mozgov or Fields, but if I'm Denver, I'd rather build a deal around one of Mozgov or Fields, one of Gallo or Chandler, with Randolph (or a pick) included, than to take the average-looking Derrick Favors and the 6th-10th pick in this year's bad draft, plus a grab bag of mediocre/poor picks.

I like Mozgov, but he's not a dealbreaker for me, especially if say Chandler/Mozgov/AR can complete a deal and we can retain both Gallo and Fields.

Fields though is pretty close to an untouchable for me, and would only give him up for Melo if he were the lone asset going. Which isn't going to happen cause Denver will treat Fields as a throw-in, and will want Chandler or Gallo included with him.

[god shammgod]

I like Mozgov, but he's not a dealbreaker for me, especially if say Chandler/Mozgov/AR can complete a deal and we can retain both Gallo and Fields.

Fields though is pretty close to an untouchable for me, and would only give him up for Melo if he were the lone asset going. Which isn't going to happen cause Denver will treat Fields as a throw-in, and will want Chandler or Gallo included with him.

it's a hard decision, moz at his size with his athletic ability could really develop into something. swingmen are easier to obtain.

[seren]

I wouldn't include both of Mozgov and AR unless we get Nene back. We need that second big.

I wouldn't include both of Fields and Gallo. We need that second wing.

I wouldn't include Felton unless Billups is coming. We need a PG.

I wouldn't include TD unless Afflalo is coming. We need a SG.

I would include Chandler to any deal. I just don't think it is a good idea to give him a long term deal before we get our main guys.

[K_ick_God]

Melo has been on fire...he's scoring in ridiculous sums and what little hope there was getting him in a trade, I am almost convinced that Denver is going to roll the dice with the new CBA and offer on the table.

Whatever the Knicks are offering is nowhere close to what Melo is worth. Donnie knows that. Denver knows that. They are screwed either way.

Don't be surprised if the Knicks don't get Melo at the deadline.

LOL

Because Denver forgot what Melo could do, and now, all of a sudden, his play reminded them?

It makes just as much sense to draw the opposite conclusion from what Detfink is saying: They see how well Melo is playing, they see that he's not signing the contract to stay even though Denver has a good record. Given that he is their best player, isn't it important that they get as much value for him as they can rather than seeing him walk for nothing?

This was never about getting fair compensation for him. They can't. The real question is whether they're willing to take almost no compensation for him and lose him for pennies on the dollar. What the Knicks are offering them is kind of like 50 cents on the dollar. Would you rather get 50 cents on the dollar for a player who is this good or just pennies?

[moocow007]

There is a hidden problem when DEN's front office publicly asks for the moon.

DEN fans see that, and when the actual trade goes down for much less, they are going to feel like their front office lost the trade. They already put tremendous value on their own players, so they see the offer and think, "Of course they should get all of this for Car-Melo freakin' Anthony!!!"

When this trade happens and DEN's share is more reflective of their bad bargaining position, instead of just Melo getting a black eye, "losing" the trade is going to damage the reputation of the front office too.

Yep agreed. This has not been handled well at all by Denver's novice FO who have essentially painted themselves into a corner with "realistic" deals never likely reaching their lofty setup.

This and all the back and forths made public that has pissed off about a quarter of the NBA teams out there who have, at one time or other, been part of a deal to move Melo only to see Denver waffle and the trade collapse.