Asik Discussion. Pg 50 Sheridan: Bulls will match

[1rage]

and more advanced stats from last season:

Hollinger:

That's a bit of an eye-of-the-beholder question. Asik's advanced stats support the subjective viewpoint that he's one of the five or 10 best defensive players in basketball, and defense in general tends to be wildly underrated in the free-agent market (although weirdly, not in the draft). He is also, objectively, a monstrous rebounder, with his 20.1 Rebound Rate ranking sixth in the NBA last season.

Way to cheery pick from the article...The next paragraph....

Asik is a terrible offensive player, however, with bad hands, poor touch and a proclivity for illegal screens. Advanced stats seem to indicate that he takes away almost as much with his offense as he does with his defense -- but that overall he's a plus, even compared to the league average.

and the paragraph after that:

And that, in the big picture, makes him a second-tier starting center. And you know how much those are worth? About $8 million a year. Houston should know; they just paid nearly the same amount to the departed Samuel Dalembert.

Houston will hope Asik can improve on that prognosis by upping his offensive production to slightly less pathetic levels, with the tutelage of Kevin McHale, but even so his defense justifies the contract.

[MrSparkle]

Yep. Only reason it's not justified for Chicago is Noah plays 33+ mpg. Hard to pay market value for 15 mpg out of Asik... Or fathom decreasing Noah and Taj's minutes. Still $25m/3yr for Asik is fair. Houston's far from crazy.

[weneeda2guard]

ill stand in the minority

but i firmly believe that asik like brewer, like watson and soon like jimmy butler are more products of thibs defensive schemes and they can be made over again.

i do think they will be great defenders once they leave but they were taught great defense by thibs. we can get another 7 ft player, we can get other guards more athletic and more skillful and thibs can teach them great defense and nothing will be lost

only player thibs has not effected is boozer, and thats just cause his feet movement stink. hell even korver started playing better defense.

the fear and panic of losing these 1 dimensional minimally skilled players need to cease. they were not good enough to get us past any other elite team in a 7 game series and i am not mad if the front office cuts they ties with them except taj and get other guards who are more athletic and can handle the ball better and add some other depth at the 4 and 5 and let coach thibs coach them up to contender status.

[1rage]

ill stand in the minority

but i firmly believe that asik like brewer, like watson and soon like jimmy butler are more products of thibs defensive schemes and they can be made over again.

i do think they will be great defenders once they leave but they were taught great defense by thibs. we can get another 7 ft player, we can get other guards more athletic and more skillful and thibs can teach them great defense and nothing will be lost

only player thibs has not effected is boozer, and thats just cause his feet movement stink. hell even korver started playing better defense.

the fear and panic of losing these 1 dimensional minimally skilled players need to cease. they were not good enough to get us past any other elite team in a 7 game series and i am not mad if the front office cuts they ties with them except taj and get other guards who are more athletic and can handle the ball better and add some other depth at the 4 and 5 and let coach thibs coach them up to contender status.

products of Thibs system?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcvtM8JqlnY[/youtube]

[Magilla_Gorilla]

ill stand in the minority

but i firmly believe that asik like brewer, like watson and soon like jimmy butler are more products of thibs defensive schemes and they can be made over again.

i do think they will be great defenders once they leave but they were taught great defense by thibs. we can get another 7 ft player, we can get other guards more athletic and more skillful and thibs can teach them great defense and nothing will be lost

only player thibs has not effected is boozer, and thats just cause his feet movement stink. hell even korver started playing better defense.

the fear and panic of losing these 1 dimensional minimally skilled players need to cease. they were not good enough to get us past any other elite team in a 7 game series and i am not mad if the front office cuts they ties with them except taj and get other guards who are more athletic and can handle the ball better and add some other depth at the 4 and 5 and let coach thibs coach them up to contender status.

Asik was a top tier defender in the TBL and Euroleague - he isn't a product of Thibs - though certainly it is to his benefit to play for him.

[Mech Engineer]

All this Thibs system, Doc's system is nonsense if you don't have the talent. Look at Boston. They were a top defensive team and Garnett was looking like a 27 year old prime MVP Garnett in the Miami series for the first 5 games. What happened? Bosh came back and he provided the spacing for LeBron to take over.
Garnett started looking like the old man he is and Doc's system didn't win the last 2 games because LeBron was great in those 2 games.

Now with Howard going to Brooklyn, Asik is more valuable if the Bulls need to have an iota of a chance to match-up against Howard.

[weneeda2guard]

ill stand in the minority

but i firmly believe that asik like brewer, like watson and soon like jimmy butler are more products of thibs defensive schemes and they can be made over again.

i do think they will be great defenders once they leave but they were taught great defense by thibs. we can get another 7 ft player, we can get other guards more athletic and more skillful and thibs can teach them great defense and nothing will be lost

only player thibs has not effected is boozer, and thats just cause his feet movement stink. hell even korver started playing better defense.

the fear and panic of losing these 1 dimensional minimally skilled players need to cease. they were not good enough to get us past any other elite team in a 7 game series and i am not mad if the front office cuts they ties with them except taj and get other guards who are more athletic and can handle the ball better and add some other depth at the 4 and 5 and let coach thibs coach them up to contender status.

products of Thibs system?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcvtM8JqlnY[/youtube]

so posting asik who is 7ft btw getting a ton of blocks on some midgets proves he was a elite defender before getting under thibs? you telling me if asik is drafted by mike dantoni he still a elite defender? you dont think thibs played a part in his maturity as a defender but guys like kevin garnet, tony allen and just about every player who has ever played for thibs displays credence to thibs defensive philosophy and making them the type of defender they are, but omer didnt benefit?

nobody was suggesting that thibs taught omer how to play defense all together. what im saying is his defensive efficiency and all the numbers that suggest he is one of the best in the leauge is largely attached to thibs coaching. and most players in thibs systems except boozer will be high in the league in defensive rating because of thibs system.

omer is too minimally skilled to command 14 mill in a 3rd year. and if you ar egoing to commit to that much for omer then flip noah. but omer has shown nothing to suggest he deserves that sort of pay day and that is what is going to make moving him if we match harder cause most in the league wont think that 14 mill in the 3rd year is worth it. thibs can plug another big body back there and we wont miss a beat. im sure of it.

[weneeda2guard]

ill stand in the minority

but i firmly believe that asik like brewer, like watson and soon like jimmy butler are more products of thibs defensive schemes and they can be made over again.

i do think they will be great defenders once they leave but they were taught great defense by thibs. we can get another 7 ft player, we can get other guards more athletic and more skillful and thibs can teach them great defense and nothing will be lost

only player thibs has not effected is boozer, and thats just cause his feet movement stink. hell even korver started playing better defense.

the fear and panic of losing these 1 dimensional minimally skilled players need to cease. they were not good enough to get us past any other elite team in a 7 game series and i am not mad if the front office cuts they ties with them except taj and get other guards who are more athletic and can handle the ball better and add some other depth at the 4 and 5 and let coach thibs coach them up to contender status.

Asik was a top tier defender in the TBL and Euroleague - he isn't a product of Thibs - though certainly it is to his benefit to play for him.

again as i said to the other poster, nobody said thibs taught omer how to play defense all together. but simply put, if omer is playing for don nelson is he a all time defender? no, so playing for a coach like thibs who staple is defense will boost everyone who plays for him rating on the defensive end. thats all im saying. we wont miss him as much as people think we will

[Magilla_Gorilla]

so posting asik who is 7ft btw getting a ton of blocks on some midgets proves he was a elite defender before getting under thibs? you telling me if asik is drafted by mike dantoni he still a elite defender? you dont think thibs played a part in his maturity as a defender but guys like kevin garnet, tony allen and just about every player who has ever played for thibs displays credence to thibs defensive philosophy and making them the type of defender they are, but omer didnt benefit?

Omer clearly benefits by playing for Thibs as any player would playing for a great coach - but thats not what you said - you said Omer was a product of Thibs system. Which is ridiculous - but expected from you. I don't expect you watched 5 minutes of Omer outside of the NBA.

nobody was suggesting that thibs taught omer how to play defense all together. what im saying is his defensive efficiency and all the numbers that suggest he is one of the best in the leauge is largely attached to thibs coaching. and most players in thibs systems except boozer will be high in the league in defensive rating because of thibs system.

Of course his numbers related to team efficiency are going to be high under Thibs and while surrounded by great defenders - but Asik when studied in a vacuum, and when stats are derived from individual play has graded out as the best defender in the league by synergy sports. Additionally he passes the video test.

omer is too minimally skilled to command 14 mill in a 3rd year. and if you ar egoing to commit to that much for omer then flip noah. but omer has shown nothing to suggest he deserves that sort of pay day and that is what is going to make moving him if we match harder cause most in the league wont think that 14 mill in the 3rd year is worth it. thibs can plug another big body back there and we wont miss a beat. im sure of it.

Yeah, you're wrong.

[LoveDaBoo]

Now with Howard going to Brooklyn, Asik is more valuable if the Bulls need to have an iota of a chance to match-up against Howard.

You need to stop saying this. It's stupid as hell. Asik simply doesn't stop Howard.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Now with Howard going to Brooklyn, Asik is more valuable if the Bulls need to have an iota of a chance to match-up against Howard.

You need to stop saying this. It's stupid as hell. Asik simply doesn't stop Howard.

No, but what he does do is defend him a hell of a lot more competently than Noah or Taj can.

[LoveDaBoo]

Now with Howard going to Brooklyn, Asik is more valuable if the Bulls need to have an iota of a chance to match-up against Howard.

You need to stop saying this. It's stupid as hell. Asik simply doesn't stop Howard.

No, but what he does do is defend him a hell of a lot more competently than Noah or Taj can.

Not if your metric is that he lets him score less. Howard still gets his against Asik, even though Asik looks better in his failed attempts to keep him from scoring.


Also, to all those talking about how Asik's defense is 'elite,' and that that justifies his contract: our defense is great even without Asik. It doesn't make sense to pay big coin for an additional defender because of the law of diminishing returns. No matter how many great defenders you bring in, other teams are still going to score so many points per game; each additional defender you play will reduce that score less than the prior one. If interior defense was a big problem for this team, investing a large amount of money in defense would be reasonable; but that isn't the case with the Bulls.

[DanTown8587]

Yep. Only reason it's not justified for Chicago is Noah plays 33+ mpg. Hard to pay market value for 15 mpg out of Asik... Or fathom decreasing Noah and Taj's minutes. Still $25m/3yr for Asik is fair. Houston's far from crazy.

It's fair to a team that wants Omer to be their starter. hell, if it was eight a year over three years, I'd probably match it. It's solely that in the last year, you're paying Omer Asik max money. Not kinda max money, not a lot of money, maximum money. And before someone says "well amnesty Boozer, trade his contract", those are two independent things. The first being, if you amnesty Boozer, wouldn't you rather have cap space than Omer at 15 million? The second is, what if no one worth acquiring for expiring contracts becomes available?

I've seen this Bulls team play for two+ years now. They're a great regular season team for the depth they had. But in the playoffs, lack of difference makers was too great to ignore. If you resign Omer but let Korver, Brewer go, are you really getting better? You're not improving the team (in fact it gets worse) and you still have glaring issues at scoring the basketball.

[djunkster]

Its a little hard for me to think about losing Asik when he's your only other center on the team. It is hard to imagine getting a replacement that produces as well as Asik does (even if only on the defensive side of the ball). Is there someone we can realistically get that equally good at defense as Asik is?

I've heard opposing teams refer to the Bulls defense + rebounding as coming in "waves." Part of that is because the defense doesn't lose a step when the Bulls go to their reserves (sometimes gets even better). Of the bench mob, you can replace Watson, Brewer, JLIII. More difficult to replace Korver and Gibson. Even more difficult to replace Asik.

Lose Asik and at the bare minimum... we lose 6 extra fouls against Dwight Howard. And don't kid yourself, Gibson, Boozer and Noah don't do anything against Howard. Asik at least slows him down (at least doesn't pick up lots of quick fouls like Noah usually does against Howard).

Losing Asik makes us a weaker team - we will be taking a step back, which means we are one step further from a championship. I hope the Bulls match because it would be an excellent basketball decision.

If they don't match, it would be an excellent financial decision.

Either way, it will be a good AND bad decision.

[Mech Engineer]

Now with Howard going to Brooklyn, Asik is more valuable if the Bulls need to have an iota of a chance to match-up against Howard.

You need to stop saying this. It's stupid as hell. Asik simply doesn't stop Howard.

Did you read what I wrote. I never said Asik stops Howard. All I said, the chances of matching up against Howard is better with Asik than just Noah. Noah + Asik can slow down Howard not stop him.

If I you don't think so, it's your opinion.

[Godzilla039]

Since this current core wins on defense, rebounding and depth, (and Asik is our best rebounder and defender) I say we re-sign him. I don't see the FO making a trade for a dynamic scorer (assuming one would be availiable) so I think we'll just have to ride out this core until contracts start coming off the books. Then reload .. eventhough I would have prefered a draft day reload. Plus, I like watching dude play. Yeah, his offense sucks but some of that falls on the players that seem incapable to understand that soft lobs at the rim would probably be a better decision than throwing him fastballs in the paint.

[LoveDaBoo]

Now with Howard going to Brooklyn, Asik is more valuable if the Bulls need to have an iota of a chance to match-up against Howard.

You need to stop saying this. It's stupid as hell. Asik simply doesn't stop Howard.

Did you read what I wrote. I never said Asik stops Howard. All I said, the chances of matching up against Howard is better with Asik than just Noah. Noah + Asik can slow down Howard not stop him.

If I you don't think so, it's your opinion.

No, it's just a fact that they don't. When Howard has it going, you basically just better focus on stopping the rest of the team. Paying Asik $8M in some ill-conceived effort to shut Howard down is silly.

[DuckIII]

Paying Asik $8M in some ill-conceived effort to shut Howard down is silly.

Paying one player to "stop" another specific player is always silly. But there are many other non-silly reasons the Bulls should match Asik.

[LoveDaBoo]

Plus, I like watching dude play. Yeah, his offense sucks but some of that falls on the players that seem incapable to understand that soft lobs at the rim would probably be a better decision than throwing him fastballs in the paint.

Not really. He simply can't catch anything on offense consistently. And when he does catch it, he very frequently loses the ball. And when he does catch it and doesn't get stripped, he often misses an easy shot/and-1. And when he's fouled -often after missing an easy and-1- he misses most the FTs he shoots. For as entertaining as he is on defense, he's wildly frustrating on offense.

[AAU Teammate]

Paying Asik because he can defend Howard is different from saying:

"lets pay Asik to defend Howard"