"WCIHAoTDP?" - 2016 Draft Thread P.2

[BleedGreen1989]

Unless Thon absolutely blows people away in workouts, I have a hard time seeing how he's a better prospect than Okafor or Noel, who both have NBA minutes under their belts. Okafor has flaws, but he'd be a perfect acquisition with our pick to play the 4/5..

Perfect acquisition if you don't mind your bigs being poor defenders and mediocre rebounders.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Thon Maker shot 0-5 in an exhibition game a year ago, while being dominant defensively and on the boards, against the very best prospects in the world. At his very worst, he dominated one end of the court against the best possible competition imaginable. At his worst, he proved more than Bender Ever has against a bunch of Israelis.

Best talent imaginable? Half of those guys won't even sniff playing time in the NBA and if their lucky maybe two guys out of the rest will be good/decent NBA players. Maker will get drafted on measurements and that's about it.

Not everybody can be Israeli semi-pros, the kind getting minutes over Bender.

Why are you ignoring the fact that Bender put up historically elite numbers in FIBA u-18 play?

And, the Israeli League is professional basketball, not-semi pro, and is MILES ahead of Canadian HS basketball.

And just to repeat from earlier, I don't even like Bender and have no interest in taking him at 3. But you are 100% underselling him.

[Writebloc]

What this draft lacks in high end talent it far surpasses in top end names. My top names of the 2016 draft:

1) Dragan Bender - number one with a bullet, if you can combine a Game of Thrones reference with a Futurama reference you are winning life.

2) Diamond Stone - as if Stone isn't strong enough we need to reinforce that with Diamonds.

3) Thon Maker - could have gone a couple of ways here, but my immature freshman teenage boy came out when I realized that if I add a g to Thon...

4) Buddy Hield - the anachronistic undersized shooting guard from Oklahoma. He shows up to take his girl Peggy Sue to the malt shop and then soc hop on his hover board.

5) Skal Labissiere - 311's personal French chef

6) Timothe Luwawu - I can't wait for Tommy to wrap his tongue around Luwawu.

7) Ivan Rabb - 90's era Jean-Claude Van Damme bad guy.

8) Furkan Korkmanz - when you can get a guy at 8 with a name as easily manipulated as Furkan you know you have a special draft.

9) Ivica Zubac/Ante Zizic - what you thought I was making this up?

10) Prince Ibeh - "Lords and Ladies of the realm it is my pleasure, duty, and honor to present to you PRINCE Ib-eh huh gargle cough gag"

11) Cheick Diallo - Cheick please!

[cl2117]

I'm pretty happy with the way the end of the season played out and the coin flips went (from a draft perspective).

The problem I have is that I have zero confidence that the guy we get in that 3-5 range is going to be the game changer that we need them to be to take us to the next level. Nor do they seem like the kind of guys that you could build a package for a star that another team would be eager to trade for. So I'm praying to all the deities I can think of that we luck into the top 2.

If we are 3 I think we HAVE to take Bender and hope goes all Porzingas. At 4/5 I like them in this order Hield/Brown/Murray/Dunn. Hield's got the scoring we need, Brown fits a need at 3 but I just don't know about his ceiling, Murray just might be the best value pick and Dunn I'd just be holding out for a trade with Philly for Okafor or Noel.

I'd be more than happy trading out for Okafor because I think Stevens and this team are uniquely positioned to mitigate his flaws. If they can get him to play some solid team defense and buy into the "hustle" style of play (e.g. grab some extra boards, run the floor better), not only will he add a huge new dimension to the squad, but we can prop him up to be more than what he is and use him as our next Big Al in a trade for a real star.

Assuming that out picks stay where they are, honestly I'd be ecstatic with Bender at 3, Valentine at 16 and Stone at 23. Ideally pick up Maker at the top of the 2nd round and then I'd look for whatever stash type players I can get Zipser/Cornelie/Qi/Hernangomez (if any of them fall that far). That's a great draft for us.

If we end up at 4/5 I think Ainge needs to take bigger swings in the hopes of hitting pay-dirt because I think in terms of draft value it goes Ingram/Simmons, then Bender on his own, then gets muddled in that 4-8 range. That might mean taking Maker earlier and hoping people are wrong (like at #23 as just a shot in the dark on the guy based on size and hope that he develops). Probably means shying away from someone like Valentine and going for a guy who is more boom or bust and note a likely solid role player (Kormkaz, Rabb, Sabonis).

But if the basketball Gods are kind and deliver us Ingram or Simmons then it doesn't even matter. It's all just gravy from there. Getting Ingram as our SF of the future, add Valentine at #16 as a complete role player SG, a center at #23 to develop (Stone/Jones/Zizic/Zubac), Maker at #31 to star on our D-League team, Cornelie at #35 as a stash, Zipser at #45 as a stash and then BPA with those final second rounders (ideally stashes). My fantasy draft would be complete right there. Wholly unrealistic, but a man can dream.

[Crossy2008]

There are three guys projected to go fairly high that I would want to stay clear of. One is Ellenson, another is Murray, and the third is Poeltl. I don't think any of their game's will translate well to the NBA. Athleticism is a big part of today's NBA, and they are all a little shy in that department, which will translate well in College, but once they get to the NBA it is going to hurt them on both ends of the floor.

If I had a big board I would have Murray in my top fifteen, but Poeltl and Ellenson might not be in the top 30. That makes number 16 more valuable because it is very possible that I could get a top ten selection at 16.

[Marqui17]

I can't imagine why anyone would want to take Bender over Hield (a proven sharpshooter/scorer).

[brackdan70]

I can't imagine why anyone would want to take Bender over Hield (a proven sharpshooter/scorer).

potential. skilled 7 footer with 9'3" standing reach.

Hield is 4 years older.

4 years ago Hield was the 111th ranked in coming Fresh hoops player in the nation.

Not saying Bender will be a better choice than Hield, but there are plenty of reasons I can imagine.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Watched a bit on Thon the past few days, here's my honest assessment:

-He's added significant mass since his original highlight tapes. He obviously has a strong work ethic.

-that said, he's still undersized and needs to add about 20 LBS. He should be able to get there after "red shirting" his rookie year

-He is enormous. Massive standing reach and will be able to alter shots by standing there.

-He is not a fluid athlete. His hips are stiff and he doesn't change directions well. He will struggle on the PnR against a quicker wing. He's not an explosive jumper and does not have a quick leap off the ground. Second jump is rather poor.

-Good straight line speed. Good vertical for a 7+ footer

-Hand size is overrated, I wouldn't worry about that. He does have stone hands though, and struggle receiving lobs.

-He has some good defensive potential, but he loses focus. His agility leads me to doubting his ability to hedge and play the PnR, but he should be a net positive overall

-Offensive potential is less clear. Not a strong jump shooter, and has a hitch to jerk back and fall away when taking threes (he's 7+ feet tall with a gargantuan standing reach, no need to fall away as often as he does). Decent set shoot as evidenced by his decent FT%. His aforementioned stone hands and size definitely hinder him in the post. His long arms help him on drives and with post moves.

-overall, he has tools and ability, but is incredibly raw. The best level of talent he went up against is the HS level. He will not contribute offensively for atleast the next year, if not two or three. Defensively, he's a role player at the moment and will likely be exploited until he gains more experience. He's sort of the inverse of Skal, where Skal is more projectable on offense and Thon more projectable on defense. All things being equal, I take Skal.

-If I had to rank Thon, I'd put him in the 15-25 range. Would consider at 16 and probably take him at 23.

[Envelope]

When someone compares Bender to Bargnani you know that person who said that has never ever seen him play. They have only two things in common - they are both tall and white.

And soft like Charmin'.

Have you ever heard anybody describe Bender as tough?

No, no you haven't.

[pfm]

When someone compares Bender to Bargnani you know that person who said that has never ever seen him play. They have only two things in common - they are both tall and white.

And soft like Charmin'.

Have you ever heard anybody describe Bender as tough?

No, no you haven't.

No need to get so defensive, Thon.

[Homerclease]

I can't imagine why anyone would want to take Bender over Hield (a proven sharpshooter/scorer).

Because the Celtics don't need any more guards. I hope they draft 8 front court players and I also hope one of those 8 can actually perform at the NBA level. The current Celtics front court isn't anywhere near good enough

[LacosteM]

When someone compares Bender to Bargnani you know that person who said that has never ever seen him play. They have only two things in common - they are both tall and white.

And soft like Charmin'.

Have you ever heard anybody describe Bender as tough?

No, no you haven't.

https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/694632736347287552

[Envelope]

Watched a bit on Thon the past few days, here's my honest assessment:

-He's added significant mass since his original highlight tapes. He obviously has a strong work ethic.

-that said, he's still undersized and needs to add about 20 LBS. He should be able to get there after "red shirting" his rookie year

-He is enormous. Massive standing reach and will be able to alter shots by standing there.

-He is not a fluid athlete. His hips are stiff and he doesn't change directions well. He will struggle on the PnR against a quicker wing. He's not an explosive jumper and does not have a quick leap off the ground. Second jump is rather poor.

-Good straight line speed. Good vertical for a 7+ footer

-Hand size is overrated, I wouldn't worry about that. He does have stone hands though, and struggle receiving lobs.

-He has some good defensive potential, but he loses focus. His agility leads me to doubting his ability to hedge and play the PnR, but he should be a net positive overall

-Offensive potential is less clear. Not a strong jump shooter, and has a hitch to jerk back and fall away when taking threes (he's 7+ feet tall with a gargantuan standing reach, no need to fall away as often as he does). Decent set shoot as evidenced by his decent FT%. His aforementioned stone hands and size definitely hinder him in the post. His long arms help him on drives and with post moves.

-overall, he has tools and ability, but is incredibly raw. The best level of talent he went up against is the HS level. He will not contribute offensively for atleast the next year, if not two or three. Defensively, he's a role player at the moment and will likely be exploited until he gains more experience. He's sort of the inverse of Skal, where Skal is more projectable on offense and Thon more projectable on defense. All things being equal, I take Skal.

-If I had to rank Thon, I'd put him in the 15-25 range. Would consider at 16 and probably take him at 23.

Rudy Gobert contributed as a rookie weighing about 230. Thon already weighs 225 and he'll be in the weight room for the next 5 months.

Maker, being a lot more mobile than Gobert, can play significant minutes at PF, even as a rookie, even at 230 lbs.

You under-rate Thon Maker's leaping, and second leaping. It's absolutely elite for a 7'1" guy. And he's already one of the 5 longest guys in the NBA. And at PF, his length advantage is 7.5" higher than the average NBA PF. Or 8.5" over guys like Blake Griffin and Julius Randle and Aaron Gordon.

Larry Sanders thrived at center at 230 lbs. Thon can thrive in a defensive role at PF at 230 lbs. Noel only weighs like 220.

This "average athlete" talk by Givony and DX is absurd. Look at Alex Len if you want to see an average (actually above average) athlete at 7'1. Thon Maker is a bit better athlete than Porzingis.

[Envelope]

Unless Thon absolutely blows people away in workouts, I have a hard time seeing how he's a better prospect than Okafor or Noel, who both have NBA minutes under their belts. Okafor has flaws, but he'd be a perfect acquisition with our pick to play the 4/5..

Perfect acquisition if you don't mind your bigs being poor defenders and mediocre rebounders.

Notice how he slipped the 4 in there with the 5. As if Okafor can defend PFs.

[Envelope]

When someone compares Bender to Bargnani you know that person who said that has never ever seen him play. They have only two things in common - they are both tall and white.

And soft like Charmin'.

Have you ever heard anybody describe Bender as tough?

No, no you haven't.

https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/694632736347287552

I'm sure you could find a quote by Givony saying the same thing about Skal. Probably several.

[Envelope]

There are three guys projected to go fairly high that I would want to stay clear of. One is Ellenson, another is Murray, and the third is Poeltl. I don't think any of their game's will translate well to the NBA. Athleticism is a big part of today's NBA, and they are all a little shy in that department, which will translate well in College, but once they get to the NBA it is going to hurt them on both ends of the floor.

If I had a big board I would have Murray in my top fifteen, but Poeltl and Ellenson might not be in the top 30. That makes number 16 more valuable because it is very possible that I could get a top ten selection at 16.

Poeltl is a great athlete for 7'1. He's Porzingis level as an athlete. Keep in mind people were saying Porzingis was an average athlete this time last year.

What makes Poeltl a top prospect is his ability to play PF as well as center. Similar to Porzingis in that way. Not saying Poeltl is as good a prospect as Porzingis, because Porzingis has a nice 3 point shot and a lot more length, but Poeltl's upside is an All Star PF or an above average starting center.

He's a two way player too, so his impact will be bigger than his stats. And his scoring stats will be pretty darn good.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Rudy Gobert contributed as a rookie weighing about 230. Thon already weighs 225 and he'll be in the weight room for the next 5 months.

He played 9 minutes a game for a bottom 5 team. That's not contributing. And he had just played professional ball in France, a higher talent level than Canadian HS Basketball. Maker will not contribute year 1. Especially on the Celtics.

Maker, being a lot more mobile than Gobert, can play significant minutes at PF, even as a rookie, even at 230 lbs.

This is false- he is not more mobile than Rudy.

You under-rate Thon Maker's leaping, and second leaping. It's absolutely elite for a 7'1" guy. And he's already one of the 5 longest guys in the NBA. And at PF, his length advantage is 7.5" higher than the average NBA PF. Or 8.5" over guys like Blake Griffin and Julius Randle and Aaron Gordon.

Dwight Howard and his 36.5 inch vertical had an elite jump. You yourself stated that Thon had a 28 inch leap. As I've stated its a good number for a 7 footer, but not elite.

And his second jump is poor. He's very slow off the ground. He struggles with tipped balls and grabbing his own missed shots because of this.

Rather than just outright dismissing someone, try to back up your argument. Arguing that he's longer than others is irrelevant because no one is disagreeing with you. The price of milk in Columbia is irrelevant to orange juice tasting great in Florida.

Larry Sanders thrived at center at 230 lbs. Thon can thrive in a defensive role at PF at 230 lbs. Noel only weighs like 220.

I didn't argue Thon couldn't be a good defender one day, so this is irrelevant. But both the guys you listed are much quicker than Thon, which allowed them to successfully thwart the PnR and hedge on rotation.

This "average athlete" talk by Givony and DX is absurd. Look at Alex Len if you want to see an average (actually above average) athlete at 7'1. Thon Maker is a bit better athlete than Porzingis.

I'm not Jon Givony, nor a representative of DX. Sorry if I confused you in ANY way. I never called him an average athlete.

Argue against what I say, not what I haven't.

[LacosteM]

And soft like Charmin'.

Have you ever heard anybody describe Bender as tough?

No, no you haven't.

https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/694632736347287552

I'm sure you could find a quote by Givony saying the same thing about Skal. Probably several.

Sure, just discredit what more informed and knowledgable people have to say, just so you could push your biased opinions.

"Bender’s toughness is described as one of his best qualities. Every year, you hear draft analysts, former players, and sports anchors describe every white European that declares for the draft as soft and perhaps afraid of contact. That could not be farther from the truth of Dragan Bender. Jonathon Givony from The Vertical described him as so: “Bender’s most underrated quality is his toughness. Some may look at his lanky frame and assume he’s just another soft European 7-footer who only wants to hide on the perimeter and jack up 3-pointers, but in reality that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Bender is a competitor who has a relentless motor. He was forced to sit out the initial part of a recent practice we attended to continue to rehab his foot injury (causing most of the dozen NBA scouts in attendance to leave), but begged his way back onto the floor. He proceeded to throw his body around with reckless abandon in five-on-five action. Maccabi’s staff urged him to take it easy, but Bender simply doesn’t know how to do that at this point in his career.”

[BleedGreen1989]

There are three guys projected to go fairly high that I would want to stay clear of. One is Ellenson, another is Murray, and the third is Poeltl. I don't think any of their game's will translate well to the NBA. Athleticism is a big part of today's NBA, and they are all a little shy in that department, which will translate well in College, but once they get to the NBA it is going to hurt them on both ends of the floor.

If I had a big board I would have Murray in my top fifteen, but Poeltl and Ellenson might not be in the top 30. That makes number 16 more valuable because it is very possible that I could get a top ten selection at 16.

Poeltl is a great athlete for 7'1. He's Porzingis level as an athlete. Keep in mind people were saying Porzingis was an average athlete this time last year.

What makes Poeltl a top prospect is his ability to play PF as well as center. Similar to Porzingis in that way. Not saying Poeltl is as good a prospect as Porzingis, because Porzingis has a nice 3 point shot and a lot more length, but Poeltl's upside is an All Star PF or an above average starting center.

He's a two way player too, so his impact will be bigger than his stats. And his scoring stats will be pretty darn good.

Huh? To be an AS PF in today's nba you need to be highly skilled (shooting, passing, driving, ect.) I like Poelti, but I don't think he fits that bill.

I like the Andrew Bogut comparisons.

[Envelope]

Rudy Gobert contributed as a rookie weighing about 230. Thon already weighs 225 and he'll be in the weight room for the next 5 months.

He played 9 minutes a game for a bottom 5 team. That's not contributing. And he had just played professional ball in France, a higher talent level than Canadian HS Basketball. Maker will not contribute year 1. Especially on the Celtics.

Maker, being a lot more mobile than Gobert, can play significant minutes at PF, even as a rookie, even at 230 lbs.

This is false- he is not more mobile than Rudy.

You under-rate Thon Maker's leaping, and second leaping. It's absolutely elite for a 7'1" guy. And he's already one of the 5 longest guys in the NBA. And at PF, his length advantage is 7.5" higher than the average NBA PF. Or 8.5" over guys like Blake Griffin and Julius Randle and Aaron Gordon.

Dwight Howard and his 36.5 inch vertical had an elite jump. You yourself stated that Thon had a 28 inch leap. As I've stated its a good number for a 7 footer, but not elite.

And his second jump is poor. He's very slow off the ground. He struggles with tipped balls and grabbing his own missed shots because of this.

Rather than just outright dismissing someone, try to back up your argument. Arguing that he's longer than others is irrelevant because no one is disagreeing with you. The price of milk in Columbia is irrelevant to orange juice tasting great in Florida.

Larry Sanders thrived at center at 230 lbs. Thon can thrive in a defensive role at PF at 230 lbs. Noel only weighs like 220.

I didn't argue Thon couldn't be a good defender one day, so this is irrelevant. But both the guys you listed are much quicker than Thon, which allowed them to successfully thwart the PnR and hedge on rotation.

This "average athlete" talk by Givony and DX is absurd. Look at Alex Len if you want to see an average (actually above average) athlete at 7'1. Thon Maker is a bit better athlete than Porzingis.

I'm not Jon Givony, nor a representative of DX. Sorry if I confused you in ANY way. I never called him an average athlete.

Argue against what I say, not what I haven't.

I said Dragan Bender had a 28" max vert leap, and I was saying of course Makers would be much higher. Probably 34" at least.

Watch this section of DX's "Strengths" video. It's the one part they get right.
"Mobility on D"
[YouTube]https://youtu.be/PREYPhruOCA?t=1m39s[/YouTube]

Gobert can't move like that in space away from the basket.

And again, this is Obviously outstanding leaping ability for a 7'1" guy. As good as it gets, really.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM3Hx5LNImI[/youtube]

He's just getting picked apart because he's been a youtube superstar since he was 15-16, when he had only been playing for 2-3 years.

Most all of these other prospects were born with a basketball in their hand. Like Simmons, whose father was in the NBA. Simmons got a 10-13 year head start on Maker, as did most other prospects. It's one of the reasons Maker has so much more untapped potential.