2016 Playoffs

[DirtyDez]

[thamadkant]

Lebron won MVP... But Kyrie has hit almost every critical shots for the Cavs in the the last 3 games. And the shots he hit were under duress and amazing. Each shots either kept the momentum towards Cavs or stopped Warriors run.... Breathtaking performance for Kyrie. He also shut down Curry...

Lebron got the MVP and its well deserved... But Kyrie should have a piece of that award... Just rewatch the series and watch Kyrie's huge plays.

[bwgood77]

If Lebron REALLY wants to cement his legacy, he should go on the Lebron US Tour, signing 1 year deals with a new team every year (all teams that have not yet won a title). How cool would that be.

yup said it last year. lebron should do a mercenersry type free agency... Teams who hasnt won a ring..
He jonns them.. He can have 3 or 4 statues by the time he retires

It is amazing. They said after the game that Cleveland had the WORST record in the league the four years before LeBron came back, and he takes them to the finals? I know they added Love, but most here seem to consider him worthless, but that is a team that definitely isn't even in the playoffs without LeBron.

As blasphemous as this is to say. I don't know if Jordan would have really had the ability to just go to the worst team in the league and get them to the finals two years in a row and beat one of the best regular season teams of all time.

His Bulls teams had MUCH more help than this Cleveland one did.

And before people jump in with emoticons ridiculing me for that comment, I'm not saying LeBron is a better player than MJ. MJ had that killer instinct..LeBron never really did, until tonight....this is really the first time I felt like nerves didn't do the better of him in a tight big game....I wonder if that makes him more confident in such moments in the future..I would bet on it. LeBron always had such enormous pressure to win it all it was too much....and in that series against Boston when he was in Cleveland and blew it he was singlehandedly as a fairly young player trying to take out three future hall of famers, and people say he choked...yes he did, but the pressure was there.

It carried over to Miami to some extent, though he got better with it. Ray Allen saved him the first year. SA was just simply a much better team the second year.

[bwgood77]

Lebron won MVP... But Kyrie has hit almost every critical shots for the Cavs in the the last 3 games. And the shots he hit were under duress and amazing. Each shots either kept the momentum towards Cavs or stopped Warriors run.... Breathtaking performance for Kyrie. He also shut down Curry...

Lebron got the MVP and its well deserved... But Kyrie should have a piece of that award... Just rewatch the series and watch Kyrie's huge plays.

Yeah, if Kyrie doesn't hit that shot I don't know how this series ends, as everyone seemed nervous, but LeBron was basically shutting down GS on the other side. That's pretty valuable too. Kyrie was valuable scoring...very valuable...but LeBron was valuable on defense, scoring, assists, rebounds, blocks, steals...I mean he was all over the place. This is the best finals performance by a player in a long time, so I don't think Kyrie deserves too much of it.

[DirtyDez]

https://mobile.twitter.com/dmansworld474/status/744730972533334016/video/1

[GMATCallahan]

In this series, I would actually say that Richard Jefferson has amounted to Cleveland's fourth-best player.

Yes, who would have ever thought that? It doesn't seem like he's done much in the league for years.

I had presumed that Jefferson was washed up and just providing "veteran leadership" on the roster, but at thirty-five, he remains quite athletic—not as athletic as when he was playing in the NBA Finals with the Nets at ages twenty-two and twenty-three, obviously, but still more athletic than most. Then add his knowledge of how to play, how to defend, and how to move without the ball—he was one of the smartest players on the court in this series—and he allowed Cleveland to go small in a way that worked.

[GMATCallahan]

Yeah, if Kyrie doesn't hit that shot I don't know how this series ends, as everyone seemed nervous, but LeBron was basically shutting down GS on the other side. That's pretty valuable too. Kyrie was valuable scoring...very valuable...but LeBron was valuable on defense, scoring, assists, rebounds, blocks, steals...I mean he was all over the place. This is the best finals performance by a player in a long time, so I don't think Kyrie deserves too much of it.

Irving possesses great scoring talent, but if he is leading a team, it may not reach the playoffs—even in the East. James gave him the platform, and James still amounted to the best player on that platform.

But championships always represent team efforts. Remove Scottie Pippen from the Bulls in the 1990s, and Michael Jordan drops from six NBA Finals MVP Awards to zero.

In a team game, MVP Awards are sort of silly, anyway. They are promotional gimmicks, kind of like the Oscars.

[bwgood77]

In this series, I would actually say that Richard Jefferson has amounted to Cleveland's fourth-best player.

Yes, who would have ever thought that? It doesn't seem like he's done much in the league for years.

I had presumed that Jefferson was washed up and just providing "veteran leadership" on the roster, but at thirty-five, he remains quite athletic—not as athletic as when he was playing in the NBA Finals with the Nets at ages twenty-two and twenty-three, obviously, but still more athletic than most. Then add his knowledge of how to play, how to defend, and how to move without the ball—he was one of the smartest players on the court in this series—and he allowed Cleveland to go small in a way that worked.

Curious, where would you place LeBron on a list of historical players....like if you had to rank them. I'm guessing this is the kind of thing you think is nonsensical, because so many factors come into play, but even though his career probably has a good 5-7 years left, do you think he is a top 10 or 5 player of all time?

On an unrelated note, you might not have seen the posts I made with Richard Dumas' videos in the draft thread. How important do you think he was in the 93 finals? Does it get back to Phx without him?

[thamadkant]

If Lebron REALLY wants to cement his legacy, he should go on the Lebron US Tour, signing 1 year deals with a new team every year (all teams that have not yet won a title). How cool would that be.

yup said it last year. lebron should do a mercenersry type free agency... Teams who hasnt won a ring..
He jonns them.. He can have 3 or 4 statues by the time he retires

It is amazing. They said after the game that Cleveland had the WORST record in the league the four years before LeBron came back, and he takes them to the finals? I know they added Love, but most here seem to consider him worthless, but that is a team that definitely isn't even in the playoffs without LeBron.

As blasphemous as this is to say. I don't know if Jordan would have really had the ability to just go to the worst team in the league and get them to the finals two years in a row and beat one of the best regular season teams of all time.

His Bulls teams had MUCH more help than this Cleveland one did.

And before people jump in with emoticons ridiculing me for that comment, I'm not saying LeBron is a better player than MJ. MJ had that killer instinct..LeBron never really did, until tonight....this is really the first time I felt like nerves didn't do the better of him in a tight big game....I wonder if that makes him more confident in such moments in the future..I would bet on it. LeBron always had such enormous pressure to win it all it was too much....and in that series against Boston when he was in Cleveland and blew it he was singlehandedly as a fairly young player trying to take out three future hall of famers, and people say he choked...yes he did, but the pressure was there.

It carried over to Miami to some extent, though he got better with it. Ray Allen saved him the first year. SA was just simply a much better team the second year.

What you are implying is blasphomous.

Cavs pre Lebron.... Was a mess of a team... The coach and players didnt have anything to play for.

Lebron comes back and he quickly took leadership ... He automatically got rid of any laziness or non conformance. He ensured everyone knew their role.

Lets not ignore that the eastern conference is still weal enough for Cavs to sleep walk to the finals.


Jordam had rivalries with Celtics, Pistons, Knicks and Pacers in his ECF quest... All powerhouse teams who could of gone all the way to win a ring those years. Lebron and the east of the last 5 years have been a joke... He ensured the east only had one super team and its his.

Lebron is great... Will go down as the greatest poinr forward of all time... But Ive seen Jordan topple giants from both sides of the conference
. and legit legendary shots just like what Kyrie did... Jordan nailed so many money shots in the playoffs that thry deserve their own hall of fame.

[bwgood77]

yup said it last year. lebron should do a mercenersry type free agency... Teams who hasnt won a ring..
He jonns them.. He can have 3 or 4 statues by the time he retires

It is amazing. They said after the game that Cleveland had the WORST record in the league the four years before LeBron came back, and he takes them to the finals? I know they added Love, but most here seem to consider him worthless, but that is a team that definitely isn't even in the playoffs without LeBron.

As blasphemous as this is to say. I don't know if Jordan would have really had the ability to just go to the worst team in the league and get them to the finals two years in a row and beat one of the best regular season teams of all time.

His Bulls teams had MUCH more help than this Cleveland one did.

And before people jump in with emoticons ridiculing me for that comment, I'm not saying LeBron is a better player than MJ. MJ had that killer instinct..LeBron never really did, until tonight....this is really the first time I felt like nerves didn't do the better of him in a tight big game....I wonder if that makes him more confident in such moments in the future..I would bet on it. LeBron always had such enormous pressure to win it all it was too much....and in that series against Boston when he was in Cleveland and blew it he was singlehandedly as a fairly young player trying to take out three future hall of famers, and people say he choked...yes he did, but the pressure was there.

It carried over to Miami to some extent, though he got better with it. Ray Allen saved him the first year. SA was just simply a much better team the second year.

What you are implying is blasphomous.

Cavs pre Lebron.... Was a mess of a team... The coach and players didnt have anything to play for.

Lebron comes back and he quickly took leadership ... He automatically got rid of any laziness or non conformance. He ensured everyone knew their role.

Lets not ignore that the eastern conference is still weal enough for Cavs to sleep walk to the finals.


Jordam had rivalries with Celtics, Pistons, Knicks and Pacers in his ECF quest... All powerhouse teams who could of gone all the way to win a ring those years. Lebron and the east of the last 5 years have been a joke... He ensured the east only had one super team and its his.

Lebron is great... Will go down as the greatest poinr forward of all time... But Ive seen Jordan topple giants from both sides of the conference
. and legit legendary shots just like what Kyrie did... Jordan nailed so many money shots in the playoffs that thry deserve their own hall of fame.

Jordan didn't have much of a battle from the Celtics by the time he went to the finals, and the Pistons either. The Knicks were a great defensive team and a challenge but that was for the most part, the only real challenge and that was in like 2 of the last 3 years of his first 3 peat.

You are mentioning teams he got knocked out by with the Pistons and Celtics which would require, for comparison sake, if you want to put those team's in the mix, to throw in Boston's team with three hall of famers he basically nearly beat by himself and extremely strong Bulls and Pacers teams who had #1 seeds. But he also faced tough finals opponents in the Spurs twice and the Warriors...I mean these three squads were probably three of the best teams in history for teams not having won it all, and he was not playing with nearly as much of a team as SA or GS.

[Bogyo]

Wow! LeBron really making himself worthwile in the GOAT conversation!
GSW got a bit too cocky for my taste, as others have stated.

Still, I gotta ask - when was the last time when a visiting team had twice as many FTs in a game 7 than the home team champions?

[GMATCallahan]

Lebron won MVP... But Kyrie has hit almost every critical shots for the Cavs in the the last 3 games. And the shots he hit were under duress and amazing. Each shots either kept the momentum towards Cavs or stopped Warriors run.... Breathtaking performance for Kyrie. He also shut down Curry...

Lebron got the MVP and its well deserved... But Kyrie should have a piece of that award... Just rewatch the series and watch Kyrie's huge plays.

I definitely would not say that Irving shut down Curry. Tristan Thompson had much more to do with stifling Curry than Irving, and Irving was sometimes guarding Harrison Barnes, Klay Thompson, whoever—with all the switching and cross-matching that needs to occur when facing the Warriors, a team effort is definitely required. T. Thompson constituted the defender of the series, though.

Plus, Curry missed some open shots and some shots that he sinks routinely.

I would also note that James' three free throws after drawing the foul on Ezeli, and then James' three-pointer against Ezeli, along with his block on Iguodala, were the plays that set up Irving's three-pointer over Curry.

James represented the best total player by a substantial margin, but Irving gave him what he was missing in last year's Finals and what he was missing during his first stint in Cleveland. Indeed, Irving gave James what he had gone to Miami to find in Dwyane Wade.

[GMATCallahan]

Wow! LeBron really making himself worthwile in the GOAT conversation!
GSW got a bit too cocky for my taste, as others have stated.

Still, I gotta ask - when was the last time when a visiting team had twice as many FTs in a game 7 than the home team champions?

But Cleveland went to the basket and into the post much more often than Golden State; the Warriors relied on three-pointers, and both Curry and Thompson flopped in that regard in the season's biggest game. If one of them had been a little better from deep, the Warriors would have won the championship.

Free throws are not necessarily supposed to even out. If one team plays one way and another team plays a different style that does not lead to as much contact, free throws should not even out or come close to evening out.

Plus, Draymond Green was fortunate to receive three free throws on that gimmicky rip-through move in the third quarter, a play that helped bring Golden State back and that could have proved pivotal.

[sunskerr]

Pretty disappointed that the Warriors lost like that. It's just going to fuel the false narrative that 3 point shooting teams can't win when in fact they've been winning since 2011. It's an almost vomit worthy narrative because it appeases the common NBA fan and ignores what is actually true. And as a Suns fan, this is our team's legacy because we weren't able to win a championship with Nash and D'Antoni. In essence, a narrative like that devalues what Nash and D'Antoni brough to the league. That being said, yeah Cleveland is also built like a modern NBA team with 3 point shooting, but that isn't what a lot of casual fans or regular people see.

But as an NRL Cowboys supporter, I can absolutely empathize with the Cavs winning their first championship, as the Cows did in last year's premiership. That sight of LeBron on the floor, I can't be mad at that. Great stuff.

P.S. please don't sign Harrison Barnes.

[bwgood77]

Pretty disappointed that the Warriors lost like that. It's just going to fuel the false narrative that 3 point shooting teams can't win when in fact they've been winning since 2011. It's an almost vomit worthy narrative because it appeases the common NBA fan and ignores what is actually true. And as a Suns fan, this is our team's legacy because we weren't able to win a championship with Nash and D'Antoni. In essence, a narrative like that devalues what Nash and D'Antoni brough to the league. That being said, yeah Cleveland is also built like a modern NBA team with 3 point shooting, but that isn't what a lot of casual fans or regular people see.

But as an NRL Cowboys supporter, I can absolutely empathize with the Cavs winning their first championship, as the Cows did in last year's premiership. That sight of LeBron on the floor, I can't be mad at that. Great stuff.

P.S. please don't sign Harrison Barnes.

Who cares what casual fans think of our Suns' teams....we know it and they won it all last year. If people are clueless, that's on them.

[GMATCallahan]

Curious, where would you place LeBron on a list of historical players....like if you had to rank them. I'm guessing this is the kind of thing you think is nonsensical, because so many factors come into play, but even though his career probably has a good 5-7 years left, do you think he is a top 10 or 5 player of all time?

On an unrelated note, you might not have seen the posts I made with Richard Dumas' videos in the draft thread. How important do you think he was in the 93 finals? Does it get back to Phx without him?

You are correct that I consider list-making a simplistic, contrived, fallacious, and ultimately frivolous exercise, but ...

Yeah, I would consider James a top-ten player all time (give or take). To me, there are essentially two categories: centers and non-centers. Among centers, we have Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Shaquille O'Neal, and Tim Duncan—with apologies to Moses Malone, David Robinson, and a few others. (Duncan matched up at power forward plenty and even sometimes at small forward early in his career, but he also functioned as a center frequently and could serve as either a center or a power forward on an interchangeable basis. And, to be fair, Robinson possessed much more offensive game than Russell. The latter's intangibles, though, were off the charts, and we are in the dilemma of trying to compare players at very different points in history and with all the progressions that emerge in between.) Among non-centers, we have Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and LeBron James—with apologies to Julius Erving, Jerry West, and a few others.

I am not sure if James has another five-to-seven "good" years left—he could, but keep in mind that Kobe Bryant, who also entered the league out of high school, essentially could not play or play effectively after age thirty-four. If James follows a similar trajectory, he would have three good years left. Also keep in mind that Larry Bird retired at age thirty-five and was hobbled in three of his last four seasons. Regardless, anything that James accomplishes from here on out will just be padding. So we do have a career's worth of work to evaluate James on, and I do feel that he is right there in the discussion with Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. James cannot shoot nearly as well as Bird or play in the post nearly as well as Magic (much as he might try), and he does not shoot free throws nearly as well as either of them, but he is a better defender than either Bird or Magic (although Bird and Magic did record their share of blocks and especially steals). James is also a much better ball-handler than Bird and a far more explosive athlete than either one. One could fairly debate who one would take among the three of them and make a strong argument for any of the three. (Do not look to PER for the answers, though, given its misapplication of team pace factors to individual performance; I will try to finish that discussion with you at some point, as you had asked me some questions that I do want to answer when I have the chance.) Overall, I would take Jordan over any of them, though—and I will address your recent comments about Jordan and James, as I have some different interpretations.

I have not seen your posts about Dumas in that thread, but I will try to look them up. In terms of the 1993 NBA Finals, Phoenix would not have won a game without Richard Dumas, especially since Cedric Ceballos missed the entire series.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

Curious, where would you place LeBron on a list of historical players....like if you had to rank them. I'm guessing this is the kind of thing you think is nonsensical, because so many factors come into play, but even though his career probably has a good 5-7 years left, do you think he is a top 10 or 5 player of all time?

On an unrelated note, you might not have seen the posts I made with Richard Dumas' videos in the draft thread. How important do you think he was in the 93 finals? Does it get back to Phx without him?

You are correct that I consider list-making a simplistic, contrived, fallacious, and ultimately frivolous exercise, but ...

Yeah, I would consider James a top-ten player all time. To me, there are essentially two categories: centers and non-centers. Among centers, we have Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, and Tim Duncan—with apologies to Moses Malone, David Robinson, and a few others. (Duncan matched up at power forward plenty and even sometimes at small forward early in his career, but he also functioned as a center frequently and could serve as either a center or a power forward on an interchangeable basis. And, to be fair, Robinson possessed much more offensive game than Russell. The latter's intangibles, though, were off the charts, and we are in the dilemma of trying to compare players at very different points in history and with all the progressions that emerge in between.) Among non-centers, we have Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and LeBron James—with apologies to Julius Erving, Jerry West, and a few others.

I am not sure if James has another five-to-seven "good" years left—he could, but keep in mind that Kobe Bryant, who also entered the league out of high school, essentially could not play or play effectively after age thirty-four. If James follows a similar trajectory, he would have three good years left. Also keep in mind that Larry Bird retired at age thirty-five and was hobbled in three of his last four seasons. Regardless, anything that James accomplishes from here on out will just be padding. So we do have a career's worth of work to evaluate James on, and I do feel that he is right there in the discussion with Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. James cannot shoot nearly as well as Bird or play in the post nearly as well as Magic (much as he might try), and he does not shoot free throws nearly as well as either of them, but he is a better defender than either Bird or Magic (although Bird and Magic did record their share of blocks and especially steals). James is also a much better ball-handler than Bird and a far more explosive athlete than either one. One could fairly debate who one would take among the three of them and make a strong argument for any of the three. (Do not look to PER for the answers, though, given its misapplication of team pace factors to individual performance; I will try to finish that discussion with you at some point, as you had asked me some questions that I do want to answer when I have the chance.) Overall, I would take Jordan over any of them, though—and I will address your recent comments about Jordan and James, as I have some different interpretations.

I have not seen your posts about Dumas in that thread, but I will try to look them up. In terms of the 1993 NBA Finals, Phoenix would not have won a game without Richard Dumas, especially since Cedric Ceballos missed the entire series.

As far as the Jordan thing goes, I will state I think Jordan was the clearly best player ever particularly when it came to when games matter most, but I think LeBron might bring more to the table to plug into any team. Perhaps not, but I think it is probably close.

[spanishninja]

Wow! LeBron really making himself worthwile in the GOAT conversation!
GSW got a bit too cocky for my taste, as others have stated.

Still, I gotta ask - when was the last time when a visiting team had twice as many FTs in a game 7 than the home team champions?

last time a jump-shooting team played in a Finals game 7 I guess.

[GMATCallahan]

Pretty disappointed that the Warriors lost like that. It's just going to fuel the false narrative that 3 point shooting teams can't win when in fact they've been winning since 2011. It's an almost vomit worthy narrative because it appeases the common NBA fan and ignores what is actually true. And as a Suns fan, this is our team's legacy because we weren't able to win a championship with Nash and D'Antoni. In essence, a narrative like that devalues what Nash and D'Antoni brough to the league. That being said, yeah Cleveland is also built like a modern NBA team with 3 point shooting, but that isn't what a lot of casual fans or regular people see.

But as an NRL Cowboys supporter, I can absolutely empathize with the Cavs winning their first championship, as the Cows did in last year's premiership. That sight of LeBron on the floor, I can't be mad at that. Great stuff.

P.S. please don't sign Harrison Barnes.

Who cares what casual fans think of our Suns' teams....we know it and they won it all last year. If people are clueless, that's on them.

I would add that the Phoenix-Golden State analogy is really overblown in my opinion. The Warriors differentiated themselves from the Suns in a lot of ways—they are much better defensively, they play a shot-blocking center quite a bit in either Bogut or Ezeli, they feature multiple ball-handling playmakers, their primary pick-and-roll screener (Draymond Green) is the "point forward" or "point center" that Mike D'Antoni wanted Amar'e Stoudemire to become yet that Stoudemire never came close to being, and their MVP point guard, Stephen Curry, was much more of a dominant scorer than Steve Nash was willing or able to be. The Suns compensated some with Nash being a much better playmaker than Curry, but some loose stylistic similarities—ones shared here and there by other recent champions such as the 2011 Mavericks, the 2012 and 2013 Heat, and the 2014 Spurs—do not make for anything close to a replica. That narrative just constituted a typical media fallacy—it made for a nice "story," especially given that Steve Kerr, Alvin Gentry, and Leandro Barbosa had all played significant roles for the Suns. But it always amounted to a major exaggeration. D'Antoni's Suns influenced the rest of the NBA, including the Warriors, but Golden State is distinct—and, in most areas, superior. Draymond Green, in terms of total game, may have been better than anyone on those Phoenix teams. He was certainly better than everyone outside of Nash, and the Suns never quite had a player like him. The closest was Boris Diaw, but in terms of attitude, physicality, and competitiveness, there is a big difference.

I hope that people do not forget about how Green performed in this Game Seven just because the Warriors lost. 32 points, 15 rebounds, 9 assists (one assist short of the fourth triple-double ever in a Game Seven of the NBA Finals), 2 steals, just 2 turnovers, and 11-15 field goal shooting, 6-8 on threes, and 4-4 from the free throw line? And although Cleveland won, the Cavaliers shot just .402 from the field (.240 on threes), with LeBron James and Kevin Love combining to shoot 12-33 (.363) from the field. Green's defense constituted a huge reason why Cleveland struggled offensively, and he carried the Warriors offensively. He is not a "superstar"—a #1-type offensive option—but he is a better player than most "superstars." In terms of total value, a guy like Stoudemire could not compare, no matter how many points he scored. (Never mind that Stoudemire was not a true #1 offensive option, either—he represented a great assisted finisher.)

[sunsfever68]

think it's fair to say all Suns fans lived vicariously through Cavs fans tonight and got a little taste of what winning a championship is like in a desolate city destitute of trophies.

One day ours is coming. One day. and when it does...I will post a youtube video of the celebration bottles of champagne popping smoking a cigar dousing my friends and random people downtown in champagne.

We will be champions one day Phoenix!!!


For now it'll have to be the Cardinals who get it done!! #inbrucewetrust