PG: Knicks vs ATL

[HEZI]

Video highlights it all. I turned off the volume so didn’t listen to the biased commentary but just watched the video and yup it’s all there. I tried to tell you they can’t defend

LMAO

Embarrassing.

I don’t get how people find it fun to troll every single day.

Trolling is what you guys are doing at this point. Imagine blaming the coach for plays like Josh Hart getting spun on and his man getting to the basket

It’s pathetic and embarrassing at this point

[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

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**** Thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chanel Bomber]

I’ll save you the paragraphs

We lost both trades

We won the KAT trade and I think it's pretty clear cut. The offseason wasn't limited to that trade - a lot happened in the summer and our lesser record can be explained by diverse other factors.

I'm not worried about the team tbh - but they'll need to win at a higher rate in the second half of the season. If they stall in March, I think then it will be cause for concern.

I don’t think we’ve won anything. This team can’t beat contenders. Last season we were beating contenders with Randle and Donte. Randle and Donte are more valuable to thibs and Brunson than KAT imo

I’m not worried about the team because I’ve already accepted we’re mid I don’t see us changing into a top tier team by March. I would love to be wrong though

And iHart and to a lesser extent Mitch (and later Precious). And neither can play for us.

We were beating teams primarily with our defense and offensive rebounding last year. These areas of the game were our primary competitive advantages, with Brunson. The stats from last year are quite loud and clear about this. And our centers were the key to this.

Neither Randle nor Divo helped in those departments.

The dropoff in performance stems primarily from losing iHart and Mitch, not from swapping Randle and Divo for KAT. Not to mention, KAT's performing at a higher level than both of those Minnesota guys this season.

But we still have the 6th best net rating in the NBA so I think way too early to panic. They need to find some consistency but I expect them to win 50 games this year.

[G_K_F]

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**** Thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're being a hater, man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rajajackal]

we can't fire thibs midseason because that would make rick brunson acting head coach which would be so toxic that it'd undo all the detoxification this franchise has enjoyed these last four years lol

[NYKinMIA]

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**** Thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

damn

[Chanel Bomber]

hey fellas, just checking in. haven't been here in a little while.

my 2 cents. the problem with being an offense first team instead of a defense and rebounding first team is that defense can be relied upon and offense can't. kat is a better player than randle and mikal is a better player than donte but is the team really any better ? probably at the end of the day they'll end up somewhere close to the same. so what was the point ? i got too much going on to care a lot right now but that's what i think. anyway, hope y'all are good and your families are healthy.

I hope you and your family are good too. Whatever you're going through, know you're good peoples.

I agree with the general sentiment about defense but Randle and Divo didn't defend. They were defensive weak links.

So it's not about swapping Randle/Divo for KAT/Mikal. There's no dropoff there.

We lost our defense when iHart walked for nothing and our boy Mitch suffered a setback in his recovery.

My guess is the FO thought acquiring Mikal could offset that loss and bring elite perimeter defense in addition to OG. The issue is Mikal is not elite, and in fact looks pretty average. So getting him didn't mitigate the loss of iHart and Mitch.

[Jalen Bluntson]

hey fellas, just checking in. haven't been here in a little while.

my 2 cents. the problem with being an offense first team instead of a defense and rebounding first team is that defense can be relied upon and offense can't. kat is a better player than randle and mikal is a better player than donte but is the team really any better ? probably at the end of the day they'll end up somewhere close to the same. so what was the point ? i got too much going on to care a lot right now but that's what i think. anyway, hope y'all are good and your families are healthy.

I've said as much as well. We've got a good team but won't have a great one until we figure out the defense. That said, I think we're better than the "stand pat" option where we still lose iHart. We didn't replace iHart (2nd on the team in WS last year) and Mitch isn't healthy yet so hopefully the latter of those will help in that regard or we can figure something else out. If not, we have a good team but not a contender.

Best to you and yours.

We are just missing a rim protecting big. We went from Randle and Divo to Mikal and Towns, and all things considered that’s either a lateral move defensively or we got a little better. We just don’t have the dynamic shot blocker that helps Thibs from being exposed on a nightly basis. The issue now is that is a Thibs led defensive team good enough to win a championship especially with his shortcomings offensively? And I think we know the answer to that.

Yeah. I have to say that if we can't get him the rim protector/rebounder he can't win without, then we are going to see a lot of this. It's a horrible idea to rely on shams, I mean Mitch moving forward. Shart leaving really killed us. Mitch being hurt really surprises NO ONE. The solution is obvious. We need to go get a rim protector ASAP. Precious isn't it. Sims damn sure isn't it. Hukporti is a project that we will never see play unless Thibs kills everyone. Probably not gonna be it either. Mitch will never be healthy.

The offense will be fine if we can play defense/rebound they way we need to. We look completely lost on defense now. Thibs refusal to switch is the current problem. Not having the rim protector is the overall problem apparently.

Gonna be a long year. I'm still enjoying the team but, it's not that difficult to just go back to HATING EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING!!!!

[3toheadmelo]

We won the KAT trade and I think it's pretty clear cut. The offseason wasn't limited to that trade - a lot happened in the summer and our lesser record can be explained by diverse other factors.

I'm not worried about the team tbh - but they'll need to win at a higher rate in the second half of the season. If they stall in March, I think then it will be cause for concern.

I don’t think we’ve won anything. This team can’t beat contenders. Last season we were beating contenders with Randle and Donte. Randle and Donte are more valuable to thibs and Brunson than KAT imo

I’m not worried about the team because I’ve already accepted we’re mid I don’t see us changing into a top tier team by March. I would love to be wrong though

And iHart and to a lesser extent Mitch (and later Precious). And neither can play for us.

We were beating teams primarily with our defense and offensive rebounding last year. These areas of the game were our primary competitive advantages, with Brunson. The stats from last year are quite loud and clear about this. And our centers were the key to this.

Neither Randle nor Divo helped in those departments.

The dropoff in performance stems primarily from losing iHart and Mitch, not from swapping Randle and Divo for KAT. Not to mention, KAT's performing at a higher level than both of those Minnesota guys this season.

But we still have the 6th best net rating in the NBA so I think way too early to panic. They need to find some consistency but I expect them to win 50 games this year.

Eye test shows me that we miss Randle’s playmaking and gravity. Nobody can really create for our team besides Brunson. Randle was our de facto PG for the past years with Brunson. Brunson is struggling a bit trying to find that balance between scoring and playmaking.
Ihart is good, but he played awful in the post season. We could’ve replaced him with Nick Richards and ran it back.

What’s our net rating against teams that have a winning record?

[rajajackal]

with mitch not coming to save us any time soon, might be that mcbride for mikal is the answer. straight forward poa defense and 3 point shooting seems more complimentary to this SL than a midrange shooter. that's brunson's zone anyway. let mikal get jiggy as 6th man and terrorize other benches. he can still play a lot of important minutes with the other nova guys

[cgmw]

hey fellas, just checking in. haven't been here in a little while.

my 2 cents. the problem with being an offense first team instead of a defense and rebounding first team is that defense can be relied upon and offense can't. kat is a better player than randle and mikal is a better player than donte but is the team really any better ? probably at the end of the day they'll end up somewhere close to the same. so what was the point ? i got too much going on to care a lot right now but that's what i think. anyway, hope y'all are good and your families are healthy.

I hope you and your family are good too. Whatever you're going through, know you're good peoples.

I agree with the general sentiment about defense but Randle and Divo didn't defend. They were defensive weak links.

So it's not about swapping Randle/Divo for KAT/Mikal. There's no dropoff there.

We lost our defense when iHart walked for nothing and our boy Mitch suffered a setback in his recovery.

My guess is the FO thought acquiring Mikal could offset that loss and bring elite perimeter defense in addition to OG. The issue is Mikal is not elite, and in fact looks pretty average. So getting him didn't mitigate the loss of iHart and Mitch.

It’s Thibs’ refusal to abandon drop coverage. Our perimeter players aren’t fighting over picks with 110% playoff aggression because it’s a f*cking Wednesday in early December and that’s normal.

Without playoff aggression all 80 regular season games, even guys as talented as OG, Mikal, and Deuce will regularly go under picks therefore causing rotational chaos as Thibs refuses to let his center flash.

In the end, it’s dysfunction. But it’s better than we’ve ever had it before. Thibs won’t adjust to Leon’s personnel. Leon won’t panic into trading for the drop coverage rim protector Thibs stubbornly can’t live without.

I love this team but any sane adult can see it won’t end well in April/May after Thibs runs the starting 7 into the ground. Apparently he requires 8 starting caliber players plus 2 rim-protecting G-Leagers.

[KnixinSix]

I've said as much as well. We've got a good team but won't have a great one until we figure out the defense. That said, I think we're better than the "stand pat" option where we still lose iHart. We didn't replace iHart (2nd on the team in WS last year) and Mitch isn't healthy yet so hopefully the latter of those will help in that regard or we can figure something else out. If not, we have a good team but not a contender.

Best to you and yours.

We are just missing a rim protecting big. We went from Randle and Divo to Mikal and Towns, and all things considered that’s either a lateral move defensively or we got a little better. We just don’t have the dynamic shot blocker that helps Thibs from being exposed on a nightly basis. The issue now is that is a Thibs led defensive team good enough to win a championship especially with his shortcomings offensively? And I think we know the answer to that.

Yeah. I have to say that if we can't get him the rim protector/rebounder he can't win without, then we are going to see a lot of this. It's a horrible idea to rely on shams, I mean Mitch moving forward. Shart leaving really killed us. Mitch being hurt really surprises NO ONE. The solution is obvious. We need to go get a rim protector ASAP. Precious isn't it. Sims damn sure isn't it. Hukporti is a project that we will never see play unless Thibs kills everyone. Probably not gonna be it either. Mitch will never be healthy.

The offense will be fine if we can play defense/rebound they way we need to. We look completely lost on defense now. Thibs refusal to switch is the current problem. Not having the rim protector is the overall problem apparently.

Gonna be a long year. I'm still enjoying the team but, it's not that difficult to just go back to HATING EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING!!!!

Isnt December 15th a key date to start making trades or something?

I really hope we can pull of getting a guy like Kessler while keeping Mitch.

[KnixinSix]

We won the KAT trade and I think it's pretty clear cut. The offseason wasn't limited to that trade - a lot happened in the summer and our lesser record can be explained by diverse other factors.

I'm not worried about the team tbh - but they'll need to win at a higher rate in the second half of the season. If they stall in March, I think then it will be cause for concern.

I don’t think we’ve won anything. This team can’t beat contenders. Last season we were beating contenders with Randle and Donte. Randle and Donte are more valuable to thibs and Brunson than KAT imo

I’m not worried about the team because I’ve already accepted we’re mid I don’t see us changing into a top tier team by March. I would love to be wrong though

And iHart and to a lesser extent Mitch (and later Precious). And neither can play for us.

We were beating teams primarily with our defense and offensive rebounding last year. These areas of the game were our primary competitive advantages, with Brunson. The stats from last year are quite loud and clear about this. And our centers were the key to this.

Neither Randle nor Divo helped in those departments.

The dropoff in performance stems primarily from losing iHart and Mitch, not from swapping Randle and Divo for KAT. Not to mention, KAT's performing at a higher level than both of those Minnesota guys this season.

But we still have the 6th best net rating in the NBA so I think way too early to panic. They need to find some consistency but I expect them to win 50 games this year.

Well said. This is why pulling off Kessler or Richards looms larger and larger. Unless we luck out with mitch and he actually comes back and stays healthy

[robillionaire]

I stand by what I said, we lost because of Brunson. That’s not even so much an insult on him but an acknowledgement of how much we rely on him playing at a superstar level. If he plays like Elfrid Payton and goes 5-15 as he did last night we just aren’t winning many games, especially with his defensive liability. We could afford for another player to have an off night as long as Brunson is playing at a high level and someone else can pick up the slack but if he has an off night we’re pretty much screwed. So hopefully he stops coasting and flips the switch by the end of the season

[Jalen Bluntson]

hey fellas, just checking in. haven't been here in a little while.

my 2 cents. the problem with being an offense first team instead of a defense and rebounding first team is that defense can be relied upon and offense can't. kat is a better player than randle and mikal is a better player than donte but is the team really any better ? probably at the end of the day they'll end up somewhere close to the same. so what was the point ? i got too much going on to care a lot right now but that's what i think. anyway, hope y'all are good and your families are healthy.

I hope you and your family are good too. Whatever you're going through, know you're good peoples.

I agree with the general sentiment about defense but Randle and Divo didn't defend. They were defensive weak links.

So it's not about swapping Randle/Divo for KAT/Mikal. There's no dropoff there.

We lost our defense when iHart walked for nothing and our boy Mitch suffered a setback in his recovery.

My guess is the FO thought acquiring Mikal could offset that loss and bring elite perimeter defense in addition to OG. The issue is Mikal is not elite, and in fact looks pretty average. So getting him didn't mitigate the loss of iHart and Mitch.

Correct me if I am wrong but, Mikal was traded for before Shart decided to leave. What they knew behind the scenes I won't claim to know but, we still had Randle and DDV and Shart was still undecided when we made the Mikal trade. Not sure they were thinking Mikal could make up the difference defensively at that point. Not sure Mitch was expected to miss half the season either.

They could have hoped for a Thibs rotation of:
Brunson/Deuce
Mikal/DDV
OG/Hart
Randle
Shart/Mitch

That's what many of us wanted/expected too at the end of last season and right after the trade. Run it back with Mikal.

Then the rumblings of losing Shart happened and Randle wouldn't extend. Here we are wishing we had last year's team with Mikal or, at least this year's team with Shart/healthy Mitch.

Brunson/Payne
Mikal/Deuce
OG/Hart
KAT
Shart/Mitch

What fun that would be. Same basic identity as last year but way more efficient and better on defense.

Oh well. Looks like we need to find that rim protector somehow. Thibs can't win without one.

[Chanel Bomber]

I don’t think we’ve won anything. This team can’t beat contenders. Last season we were beating contenders with Randle and Donte. Randle and Donte are more valuable to thibs and Brunson than KAT imo

I’m not worried about the team because I’ve already accepted we’re mid I don’t see us changing into a top tier team by March. I would love to be wrong though

And iHart and to a lesser extent Mitch (and later Precious). And neither can play for us.

We were beating teams primarily with our defense and offensive rebounding last year. These areas of the game were our primary competitive advantages, with Brunson. The stats from last year are quite loud and clear about this. And our centers were the key to this.

Neither Randle nor Divo helped in those departments.

The dropoff in performance stems primarily from losing iHart and Mitch, not from swapping Randle and Divo for KAT. Not to mention, KAT's performing at a higher level than both of those Minnesota guys this season.

But we still have the 6th best net rating in the NBA so I think way too early to panic. They need to find some consistency but I expect them to win 50 games this year.

Eye test shows me that we miss Randle’s playmaking and gravity. Nobody can really create for our team besides Brunson. Randle was our de facto PG for the past years with Brunson. Brunson is struggling a bit trying to find that balance between scoring and playmaking.
Ihart is good, but he played awful in the post season. We could’ve replaced him with Nick Richards and ran it back.

What’s our net rating against teams that have a winning record?

We have the second best offense in the NBA, right behind Cleveland.

We certainly don't miss Randle's offense. Our offense is elite.

Where we suffered a loss was on defense and Randle was not a good defender for us. iHart and Mitch were the foundational pieces of our defense and one walked for nothing while the other's injured.

You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole with your Randle argument. It simply doesn't add up.

[Chanel Bomber]

hey fellas, just checking in. haven't been here in a little while.

my 2 cents. the problem with being an offense first team instead of a defense and rebounding first team is that defense can be relied upon and offense can't. kat is a better player than randle and mikal is a better player than donte but is the team really any better ? probably at the end of the day they'll end up somewhere close to the same. so what was the point ? i got too much going on to care a lot right now but that's what i think. anyway, hope y'all are good and your families are healthy.

I hope you and your family are good too. Whatever you're going through, know you're good peoples.

I agree with the general sentiment about defense but Randle and Divo didn't defend. They were defensive weak links.

So it's not about swapping Randle/Divo for KAT/Mikal. There's no dropoff there.

We lost our defense when iHart walked for nothing and our boy Mitch suffered a setback in his recovery.

My guess is the FO thought acquiring Mikal could offset that loss and bring elite perimeter defense in addition to OG. The issue is Mikal is not elite, and in fact looks pretty average. So getting him didn't mitigate the loss of iHart and Mitch.

Correct me if I am wrong but, Mikal was traded for before Shart decided to leave. What they knew behind the scenes I won't claim to know but, we still had Randle and DDV and Shart was still undecided when we made the Mikal trade. Not sure they were thinking Mikal could make up the difference defensively at that point. Not sure Mitch was expected to miss half the season either.

They could have hoped for a Thibs rotation of:
Brunson/Deuce
Mikal/DDV
OG/Hart
Randle
Shart/Mitch

That's what many of us wanted/expected too at the end of last season and right after the trade. Run it back with Mikal.

Then the rumblings of losing Shart happened and Randle wouldn't extend. Here we are wishing we had last year's team with Mikal or, at least this year's team with Shart/healthy Mitch.

Brunson/Payne
Mikal/Deuce
OG/Hart
KAT
Shart/Mitch

What fun that would be. Same basic identity as last year but way more efficient and better on defense.

Oh well. Looks like we need to find that rim protector somehow. Thibs can't win without one.

I think they knew they had no chance to keep Shartovic. They probably would've trade for Mikal regardless. You make a good point with the timeline but I think they were bracing for the possibility of him leaving.

[The KnicksFix]

We won the KAT trade and I think it's pretty clear cut. The offseason wasn't limited to that trade - a lot happened in the summer and our lesser record can be explained by diverse other factors.

I'm not worried about the team tbh - but they'll need to win at a higher rate in the second half of the season. If they stall in March, I think then it will be cause for concern.

I don’t think we’ve won anything. This team can’t beat contenders. Last season we were beating contenders with Randle and Donte. Randle and Donte are more valuable to thibs and Brunson than KAT imo

I’m not worried about the team because I’ve already accepted we’re mid I don’t see us changing into a top tier team by March. I would love to be wrong though

And iHart and to a lesser extent Mitch (and later Precious). And neither can play for us.

We were beating teams primarily with our defense and offensive rebounding last year. These areas of the game were our primary competitive advantages, with Brunson. The stats from last year are quite loud and clear about this. And our centers were the key to this.

Neither Randle nor Divo helped in those departments.

The dropoff in performance stems primarily from losing iHart and Mitch, not from swapping Randle and Divo for KAT. Not to mention, KAT's performing at a higher level than both of those Minnesota guys this season.

But we still have the 6th best net rating in the NBA so I think way too early to panic. They need to find some consistency but I expect them to win 50 games this year.

Exactly this Chanel. We need to rebound.
In terms of overall scoring, KAT and bridges have out scored Randle and divo. We need rebounding back.

[Chanel Bomber]

hey fellas, just checking in. haven't been here in a little while.

my 2 cents. the problem with being an offense first team instead of a defense and rebounding first team is that defense can be relied upon and offense can't. kat is a better player than randle and mikal is a better player than donte but is the team really any better ? probably at the end of the day they'll end up somewhere close to the same. so what was the point ? i got too much going on to care a lot right now but that's what i think. anyway, hope y'all are good and your families are healthy.

I hope you and your family are good too. Whatever you're going through, know you're good peoples.

I agree with the general sentiment about defense but Randle and Divo didn't defend. They were defensive weak links.

So it's not about swapping Randle/Divo for KAT/Mikal. There's no dropoff there.

We lost our defense when iHart walked for nothing and our boy Mitch suffered a setback in his recovery.

My guess is the FO thought acquiring Mikal could offset that loss and bring elite perimeter defense in addition to OG. The issue is Mikal is not elite, and in fact looks pretty average. So getting him didn't mitigate the loss of iHart and Mitch.

It’s Thibs’ refusal to abandon drop coverage. Our perimeter players aren’t fighting over picks with 110% playoff aggression because it’s a f*cking Wednesday in early December and that’s normal.

Without playoff aggression all 80 regular season games, even guys as talented as OG, Mikal, and Deuce will regularly go under picks therefore causing rotational chaos as Thibs refuses to let his center flash.

In the end, it’s dysfunction. But it’s better than we’ve ever had it before. Thibs won’t adjust to Leon’s personnel. Leon won’t panic into trading for the drop coverage rim protector Thibs stubbornly can’t live without.

I love this team but any sane adult can see it won’t end well in April/May after Thibs runs the starting 7 into the ground. Apparently he requires 8 starting caliber players plus 2 rim-protecting G-Leagers.

I don't think Thibs is the devil unlike other folks here, and there are some personnel issues, but these are fair points of criticism.

Also you've seen them play in person, and it must've jumped out at you.

Obviously, none of us should delude ourselves into thinking we could coach an NBA team like Thibs. He's in an entirely different universe in terms of knowledge and ability. And he's proven he can coach a team to relative success. But I think there is room for disagreement with Thibs on some more strategic (less so on the Xs and Os) questions. And we know that because coaches are not a homogenous group in terms of principles.

[robillionaire]

I don’t think we’ve won anything. This team can’t beat contenders. Last season we were beating contenders with Randle and Donte. Randle and Donte are more valuable to thibs and Brunson than KAT imo

I’m not worried about the team because I’ve already accepted we’re mid I don’t see us changing into a top tier team by March. I would love to be wrong though

And iHart and to a lesser extent Mitch (and later Precious). And neither can play for us.

We were beating teams primarily with our defense and offensive rebounding last year. These areas of the game were our primary competitive advantages, with Brunson. The stats from last year are quite loud and clear about this. And our centers were the key to this.

Neither Randle nor Divo helped in those departments.

The dropoff in performance stems primarily from losing iHart and Mitch, not from swapping Randle and Divo for KAT. Not to mention, KAT's performing at a higher level than both of those Minnesota guys this season.

But we still have the 6th best net rating in the NBA so I think way too early to panic. They need to find some consistency but I expect them to win 50 games this year.

Exactly this Chanel. We need to rebound.
In terms of overall scoring, KAT and bridges have out scored Randle and divo. We need rebounding back.

Well Towns is tied with Jokić leading the NBA in rebounds averaging 13.6 RPG. But that’s all we have. OG isn’t a real PF no matter how much we wanna pretend that. His rebounding isn’t up to snuff with a PF. Hart is scrappy with rebounds at times but we are still playing a very undersized lineup. Precious didn’t even look that good on the boards to me last night. Had butterfingers.