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The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke

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Re: The 

Post#521 » by humanrefutation » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:30 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
Yea, we're just gonna disagree then. If Curry's on Sacramento or Philly he doesn't win the MVP. It isn't because he's not amazing, it's because his teammates are terrible.


Do you think that if you put Giannis's clone on the Celtics right now, they'd beat Cleveland?


Yup.


I don't agree, but that's debatable.

How about if you took away Thomas and Horford, with Giannis being the #1 option? Does that team beat Cleveland?

I think the answer to that is a resounding no.
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#522 » by ReasonablySober » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:31 pm

If you think Parker is going to be a star, you're not going to be inclined to trade him. If you don't think Parker is going to be a star, you're probably exploring trade opportunities while he seems to have star-level trade value. That's fair, right?
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#523 » by steger_3434 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:32 pm

After 140 games did we think Giannis was going to be a superstar? If we drafted Parker first and he was putting up 22 and 6 right now while Giannis was putting up his year 2 numbers would these same people have wanted to trade Giannis for that Boston deal?


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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#524 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:33 pm

skones wrote:Kind of hilarious how this board goes from, TANK TANK TANK THIS IS A STAR DRIVEN LEAGUE MORE STARS MORE STARS. DEVELOP TALENT!

To

jkjkjk, we need one, lets get good solid team guys and win NOW

It's the epitome of impatience.


Just because we wanted top picks doesn't mean we have to automatically anoint every top pick a future star.

Also, it could easily be argued that trading for that BK pick is actually more patient than keeping Jabari. It's impossible to pinpoint the exact value of that pick or come even close, but the possible better-than-Jabari outcomes need to be given plenty of credence too.
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Re: The 

Post#525 » by ReasonablySober » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:34 pm

steger_3434 wrote:After 140 games did we think Giannis was going to be a superstar? If we drafted Parker first and he was putting up 22 and 6 right now while Giannis was putting up his year 2 numbers would these same people have wanted to trade Giannis for that Boston deal?


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I was making KG comparisons during Giannis's 2nd season. Yes, I believed he was going to be a star.
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#526 » by steger_3434 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:35 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:
skones wrote:Kind of hilarious how this board goes from, TANK TANK TANK THIS IS A STAR DRIVEN LEAGUE MORE STARS MORE STARS. DEVELOP TALENT!

To

jkjkjk, we need one, lets get good solid team guys and win NOW

It's the epitome of impatience.


Just because we wanted top picks doesn't mean we have to automatically anoint every top pick a future star.

Also, it could easily be argued that trading for that BK pick is actually more patient than keeping Jabari. It's impossible to pinpoint the exact value of that pick or come even close, but the possible better-than-Jabari outcomes need to be given plenty of credence too.

In the last 4 NBA drafts, with a top 10 qualifier, it was pretty much a consensus that Jabari was the 5th best. So odds of that pick being better than Jabari are slim.


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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#527 » by skones » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:37 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:
skones wrote:Kind of hilarious how this board goes from, TANK TANK TANK THIS IS A STAR DRIVEN LEAGUE MORE STARS MORE STARS. DEVELOP TALENT!

To

jkjkjk, we need one, lets get good solid team guys and win NOW

It's the epitome of impatience.


Just because we wanted top picks doesn't mean we have to automatically anoint every top pick a future star.

Also, it could easily be argued that trading for that BK pick is actually more patient than keeping Jabari. It's impossible to pinpoint the exact value of that pick or come even close, but the possible better-than-Jabari outcomes need to be given plenty of credence too.


Go ahead and look at Jabari's statistical company at age 21. Then tell me how many top 5 picks didn't match it. This is about likelihood and probability. This best case outlook as it pertains to future draft selections needs to stop. It's not realistic.

Take a look at 08-12 (used this stretch as they're current players who've been in the league long enough to establish themselves). 9 of the top 25 picks have been all-stars. 5 of them have gone number one overall. Not exactly striking odds.
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#528 » by humanrefutation » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:45 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:If you think Parker is going to be a star, you're not going to be inclined to trade him. If you don't think Parker is going to be a star, you're probably exploring trade opportunities while he seems to have star-level trade value. That's fair, right?


I'm always fine with exploring trades that offer great value for any player, including Giannis, but I think what I'm more in disagreement with is:

A. Jabari and Giannis don't "fit" with one another - I think that's a nebulous perspective.
B. It is in the best interest of the team to move Jabari for "fit" veterans in a win-now move - I don't think Giannis+Crowder+Bradley are winning the East and Crowder/Bradley will be prohibitively expensive right as we're entering this team's Giannis-led window.
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#529 » by DingleJerry » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:48 pm

skones wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
skones wrote:Kind of hilarious how this board goes from, TANK TANK TANK THIS IS A STAR DRIVEN LEAGUE MORE STARS MORE STARS. DEVELOP TALENT!

To

jkjkjk, we need one, lets get good solid team guys and win NOW

It's the epitome of impatience.


Just because we wanted top picks doesn't mean we have to automatically anoint every top pick a future star.

Also, it could easily be argued that trading for that BK pick is actually more patient than keeping Jabari. It's impossible to pinpoint the exact value of that pick or come even close, but the possible better-than-Jabari outcomes need to be given plenty of credence too.


Go ahead and look at Jabari's statistical company at age 21. Then tell me how many top 5 picks didn't match it. This is about likelihood and probability. This best case outlook as it pertains to future draft selections needs to stop. It's not realistic.


That somewhat depends on what stats you choose to look at. The positive spin is of course to look at points/scoring. Again, no one denies his offensive capability. the negative view is going to look at the defensive, hustle stuff and advanced stats and whether that translates to wins. Tons of players have fooled fans and organizations with scoring stats and that's what people are fearing here. And generally over the years here this board has been a place to make fun of PPGZZZ. But now we might have one here and we're choosing to put our head in the sand because he's our guy.

I'm at the point where he's shown me enough offensively that I'm comfortable with him progressing at the level needed there and think we should find a way to work around his weaknesses. And I know in reality we're not getting the godfather offers that are being thrown around here, so we might as well keep supporting him and hope he improves on his weaknesses. So we need a good defensive C to help him, can't have two poor defenders as your #1 lineup these days. Basically, lets start finding guys to fit around MAP since we know much more about JAbari, and will know much more about Khris by this time next year.
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Re: The 

Post#530 » by jakecronus8 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:49 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
steger_3434 wrote:After 140 games did we think Giannis was going to be a superstar? If we drafted Parker first and he was putting up 22 and 6 right now while Giannis was putting up his year 2 numbers would these same people have wanted to trade Giannis for that Boston deal?


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I was making KG comparisons during Giannis's 2nd season. Yes, I believed he was going to be a star.



Agreed. I think most were pretty hopeful at that point.
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Re: The 

Post#531 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:50 pm

steger_3434 wrote:After 140 games did we think Giannis was going to be a superstar?


I've been saying Giannis would be a great scorer since before Jabari was even drafted and that's one of the main reasons I didn't think they'd need him. This was when most people thought Giannis would just be like Ak-47 and the Bucks would need a star scorer to complement him.

Some people still think that. Geez!
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#532 » by skones » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:51 pm

BadgersBucks wrote:
skones wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
Just because we wanted top picks doesn't mean we have to automatically anoint every top pick a future star.

Also, it could easily be argued that trading for that BK pick is actually more patient than keeping Jabari. It's impossible to pinpoint the exact value of that pick or come even close, but the possible better-than-Jabari outcomes need to be given plenty of credence too.


Go ahead and look at Jabari's statistical company at age 21. Then tell me how many top 5 picks didn't match it. This is about likelihood and probability. This best case outlook as it pertains to future draft selections needs to stop. It's not realistic.


That somewhat depends on what stats you choose to look at. The positive spin is of course to look at points/scoring. Again, no one denies his offensive capability. the negative view is going to look at the defensive, hustle stuff and advanced stats and whether that translates to wins. Tons of players have fooled fans and organizations with scoring stats and that's what people are fearing here. And generally over the years here this board has been a place to make fun of PPGZZZ. But now we might have one here and we're choosing to put our head in the sand because he's our guy.

I'm at the point where he's shown me enough offensively that I'm comfortable with him progressing at the level needed there and think we should find a way to work around his weaknesses. And I know in reality we're not getting the godfather offers that are being thrown around here, so we might as well keep supporting him and hope he improves on his weaknesses. So we need a good defensive C to help him, can't have two poor defenders as your #1 lineup these days. Basically, lets start finding guys to fit around MAP since we know much more about JAbari, and will know much more about Khris by this time next year.


I don't disagree, but the PPGZZZ argument has heavy correlation to the inefficiencies and selfish play of Brandon and Monta. Jabari is a very different case.
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Re: The 

Post#533 » by jakecronus8 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:51 pm

steger_3434 wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
skones wrote:Kind of hilarious how this board goes from, TANK TANK TANK THIS IS A STAR DRIVEN LEAGUE MORE STARS MORE STARS. DEVELOP TALENT!

To

jkjkjk, we need one, lets get good solid team guys and win NOW

It's the epitome of impatience.


Just because we wanted top picks doesn't mean we have to automatically anoint every top pick a future star.

Also, it could easily be argued that trading for that BK pick is actually more patient than keeping Jabari. It's impossible to pinpoint the exact value of that pick or come even close, but the possible better-than-Jabari outcomes need to be given plenty of credence too.

In the last 4 NBA drafts, with a top 10 qualifier, it was pretty much a consensus that Jabari was the 5th best. So odds of that pick being better than Jabari are slim.


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What about the last four drafts is indicative of how this or any future class ends up?
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#534 » by H2tObes » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:58 pm

There were a few stretches up until post ASB last year where the boards general outlook on Giannis was way down, and I also remember the same talks about trading Giannis while his value was still really high. Not saying you guys where part of those talks, but it goes to show that no player is safe from trade talks until they show they are 100% a superstar
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#535 » by sidney lanier » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:02 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:
Just because we wanted top picks doesn't mean we have to automatically anoint every top pick a future star.



As Tracy Lord (the original, not the porn star) said in The Philadelphia Story, "With the rich and mighty always a little patience." Substitute top three pick for rich and mighty and you have the reason for forbearance here. If Jabari proves over time to be Marvin Williams-like in his underwhelmingness, I doubt that anyone would object to cutting him loose. The delta between what he would bring now and what he would bring then is less, in my view, than the distance on the probability distribution table between his floor as a player based on what he has done so far and what he might become if his development trajectory is more Kawhi Leonard-like.

In other less annoying words, I know you see holes in his game. We all do. However, we're not all afflicted with the confirmation bias that comes with defending an initial impression the expression of which accounts for most of my own posts and half of everybody else's. I'm glad Bob Cousy suffered from it when he refused to change his low opinion of Oscar Robertson and let the Bucks have him. We all suffer from it at times. It's hard to see and hard to shake.

The quote erroneously attributed to John Maynard Keynes -- "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" -- applies here. Let's wait and see if those facts change.
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Re: The 

Post#536 » by humanrefutation » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:05 pm

jakecronus8 wrote:
steger_3434 wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
Just because we wanted top picks doesn't mean we have to automatically anoint every top pick a future star.

Also, it could easily be argued that trading for that BK pick is actually more patient than keeping Jabari. It's impossible to pinpoint the exact value of that pick or come even close, but the possible better-than-Jabari outcomes need to be given plenty of credence too.

In the last 4 NBA drafts, with a top 10 qualifier, it was pretty much a consensus that Jabari was the 5th best. So odds of that pick being better than Jabari are slim.


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What about the last four drafts is indicative of how this or any future class ends up?


It's not indicative of how any class ends up, but like any historical data, it is useful in evaluating the risk.

Remember, going into the 2013-14 college season, Jabari's class was supposed to be one of the best classes ever. And now, there are exactly zero guys in that class that there's a certain consensus around trading Jabari for, and the two that people are willing to consider were taken #1 and #3.

The fact that a class is considered "strong" is a factor to consider, but it shouldn't be judged apart from the context of history when evaluating risk.
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#537 » by steger_3434 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:06 pm

jakecronus8 wrote:
steger_3434 wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
Just because we wanted top picks doesn't mean we have to automatically anoint every top pick a future star.

Also, it could easily be argued that trading for that BK pick is actually more patient than keeping Jabari. It's impossible to pinpoint the exact value of that pick or come even close, but the possible better-than-Jabari outcomes need to be given plenty of credence too.

In the last 4 NBA drafts, with a top 10 qualifier, it was pretty much a consensus that Jabari was the 5th best. So odds of that pick being better than Jabari are slim.


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What about the last four drafts is indicative of how this or any future class ends up?


Well it's been shoved down our throats that you need a top 3 pick to contend for the title. Past history helps with future expectations.


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Re: The 

Post#538 » by fansinceforever » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:10 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
LedZepp007 wrote:How many **** times do we have to say it? You don't trade potential stars for **** Crowder or Bradley, two above average starters. Parker is 21 and has nearly unlimited offensive potential. Giannis is not so good that he can offensively carry a team. Parker is turning into a near average defender and an above average 3 point shooter. Why the **** are we even considering this.


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If Parker was a potential star in the way you could tell Giannis was a potential star, I don't think you'd see trade threads pop up.

Frank and some Brewhoop guys had a conversation on Twitter last night and I thought this was a good encapsulation of where I'm at:

Read on Twitter


I'm just not in the camp that believes Parker is a player with an enormous ceiling and is destined for stardom.


Do you believe he has any where to go? Can he improve his defense, shooting and fine tune the areas of his game that are already good- very good?

Because if that answer is yes then you're saying you're ok with trading a 21 year old with All-Star potential.
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#539 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:12 pm

humanrefutation wrote: I think what I'm more in disagreement with is:

A. Jabari and Giannis don't "fit" with one another - I think that's a nebulous perspective.


Nebulous, yes, but not without merit. For example, there's a lot of talk about Jabari's jumper improving, but I'm seeing teams leave him open on purpose because they're happy to protect the paint and yield jumpers. So if you look at it in a vacuum, his shooting has been better, but when you realize that it's what the defense wants, it should give you pause. There's a difference between being able to hit 33-35% of your 3's when teams want you to take 3's and hitting that % when teams are actively trying to guard you out there. The latter is an indication of a player who could hit in the high 30's if he was open more. It's a threat defenses respect. That's why a guy like Mirza does so much for Giannis even on an off-night, and it's also why Reddick made such a dramatic difference in Monta's numbers for their 2 months together, even though J.J. hardly hit any of his 3's. The streakiness always regresses to the mean; it's the threat that matters.

I have been saying surround Giannis with shooters since before Jabari was drafted. Every passing week only convinces me of that more. Pick your poison. If those guys can also play d, all the better.
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Re: The "Let's trade Jabari!" thread, sponsored by coolhandluke 

Post#540 » by SupremeHustle » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:15 pm

I'm going to put a poll up asking if we should trade Jabari. We can leave this thread for the discussion.
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