The Zach Lavine Problem

[Chi]

Was he?

James Harden (09-12): 17.2 PER, .605 TS%, .457 3PAr, .503 FTr, 3.1 OBPM, 6.9 VORP

Zach LaVine (14-17): 13.4 PER, .547 TS%, .338 3PAr, .222 FTr, 0.5 OBPM, -0.1 VORP

Age 20 & 21 are the only 2 ages we can go by. As my argument was he was better at the same age...

Okay....

Harden (10-11): 15.3 PER, .577 TS%, .453 3PAr, .462 FTr, 1.9 OBPM, 3.7 VORP

LaVine (16-17): 14.4 PER, .560 TS%, .375 3PAr, .206 FTr, 1.5 OBPM, 1.1 VORP

Harden was still better.

I Have to be honest, I don't even know what some of those numbers mean, but if Lavine's career remained as close as that looks to James Harden I'd be pretty thrilled.

And no matter how accurate advanced stats are, basic stats still count for something if not just as much... Basic stats say that Lavine shot better percentages on more attempts. Which is saying a lot when we're talking about offense first players like them.

Not to mention I believe Harden's team was quite a bit better. That has to count for something too. Harden got his as a bench player against bench rotations and still shot worse %s on less attempts...

Again, I'm not saying that Lavine is or will be better than what Harden has become. But at that age, I don't think Harden is better by a landslide if he was at all...

[Poohdini1]

We'd be much better off offering him an extension before he hits RFA and the Nets or Knicks throw something ridiculous at him.

He's like Butler in a sense in that he'll never be the man, but at that point we won't have much salary, and in a rebuild you can't afford to let a talented 23 year old walk.

[MrFortune3]

We'd be much better off offering him an extension before he hits RFA and the Nets or Knicks throw something ridiculous at him.

He's like Butler in a sense in that he'll never be the man, but at that point we won't have much salary, and in a rebuild you can't afford to let a talented 23 year old walk.

The problem with Butler was not that he couldn't be the man, the problem was that he was too good for us to be bad enough to surround him with talent and when they did try...they drafted Doug McDermott.

[laxmosher1]

Age 20 & 21 are the only 2 ages we can go by. As my argument was he was better at the same age...

Okay....

Harden (10-11): 15.3 PER, .577 TS%, .453 3PAr, .462 FTr, 1.9 OBPM, 3.7 VORP

LaVine (16-17): 14.4 PER, .560 TS%, .375 3PAr, .206 FTr, 1.5 OBPM, 1.1 VORP

Harden was still better.

I Have to be honest, I don't even know what some of those numbers mean, but if Lavine's career remained as close as that looks to James Harden I'd be pretty thrilled.

And no matter how accurate advanced stats are, basic stats still count for something if not just as much... Basic stats say that Lavine shot better percentages on more attempts. Which is saying a lot when we're talking about offense first players like them.

Not to mention I believe Harden's team was quite a bit better. That has to count for something too. Harden got his as a bench player against bench rotations and still shot worse %s on less attempts...

Again, I'm not saying that Lavine is or will be better than what Harden has become. But at that age, I don't think Harden is better by a landslide if he was at all...

Exactly. No one really thinks Lavine will be better than Harden. All this talk is just excitement and hope that he can develop some skills that take his game to another level and hopefully become an all star. It kind of irks me to see so many posters just put the kid down constantly. He is super young and has proven he can score in this league and has lots of time to grow as a player. Do we really need to show off Harden numbers to prove that harden is a better player?????

[inescape]

We'd be much better off offering him an extension before he hits RFA and the Nets or Knicks throw something ridiculous at him.

He's like Butler in a sense in that he'll never be the man, but at that point we won't have much salary, and in a rebuild you can't afford to let a talented 23 year old walk.

The problem with Butler was not that he couldn't be the man, the problem was that he was too good for us to be bad enough to surround him with talent and when they did try...they drafted Doug McDermott.

Heat did it with Wade, Bulls could have done it with Butler. That was the best move and it should of happened last offseason.

[BullsFTW]

Okay....

Harden (10-11): 15.3 PER, .577 TS%, .453 3PAr, .462 FTr, 1.9 OBPM, 3.7 VORP

LaVine (16-17): 14.4 PER, .560 TS%, .375 3PAr, .206 FTr, 1.5 OBPM, 1.1 VORP

Harden was still better.

I Have to be honest, I don't even know what some of those numbers mean, but if Lavine's career remained as close as that looks to James Harden I'd be pretty thrilled.

And no matter how accurate advanced stats are, basic stats still count for something if not just as much... Basic stats say that Lavine shot better percentages on more attempts. Which is saying a lot when we're talking about offense first players like them.

Not to mention I believe Harden's team was quite a bit better. That has to count for something too. Harden got his as a bench player against bench rotations and still shot worse %s on less attempts...

Again, I'm not saying that Lavine is or will be better than what Harden has become. But at that age, I don't think Harden is better by a landslide if he was at all...

Exactly. No one really thinks Lavine will be better than Harden. All this talk is just excitement and hope that he can develop some skills that take his game to another level and hopefully become an all star. It kind of irks me to see so many posters just put the kid down constantly. He is super young and has proven he can score in this league and has lots of time to grow as a player. Do we really need to show off Harden numbers to prove that harden is a better player?????

I agree. LaVine has so many tools to become a multiple All-Star. His ceiling in my opinion is a solid 2nd option on a contending team. He has a lot to improve, but the talent is there.

[MrFortune3]

We'd be much better off offering him an extension before he hits RFA and the Nets or Knicks throw something ridiculous at him.

He's like Butler in a sense in that he'll never be the man, but at that point we won't have much salary, and in a rebuild you can't afford to let a talented 23 year old walk.

The problem with Butler was not that he couldn't be the man, the problem was that he was too good for us to be bad enough to surround him with talent and when they did try...they drafted Doug McDermott.

Heat did it with Wade, Bulls could have done it with Butler. That was the best move and it should of happened last offseason.

The Heat have Pat Riley who burns to compete for and win titles. Paxson just wants to be just above mediocre.

[janmagn]

I'm just baffled by this. To the max.

I mean, we've seen countless examples of ACL-injured players becoming shadows of themselves (or just never reaching their potential):

Rose
Rondo
Nate Robinson
Rubio
J. Parker
Gallinari
Shaun Livingston

The list goes on.

Hilarious that Pax said we got a "fantastic young lotto player." Give me a break. It's basically gonna be a countdown to the next time, unless he seriously adjusts and reduces his athletic game, and hopefully it's not after the contract extension.

For Rondo, was it really that ACL tear that made him a role player? Or was it just a result of a very bad fit for todays NBA?

Lähetetty minun LG-H440n laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[Paxson43]

LaVine said he is pushing to be ready by the start of the regular season. The Bulls are saying not so fast.

[DarthDiggler69]

LaVine said he is pushing to be ready by the start of the regular season. The Bulls are saying not so fast.

makes sense, Lavine could possibly help give them a few more wins. Hold him out till December or January

[MrFortune3]

LaVine said he is pushing to be ready by the start of the regular season. The Bulls are saying not so fast.

Good, he has the potential to be our initial franchise player and he is gonna score a lot of points for us.
We need him healthy.

[BR0D1E86]

I Have to be honest, I don't even know what some of those numbers mean, but if Lavine's career remained as close as that looks to James Harden I'd be pretty thrilled.

And no matter how accurate advanced stats are, basic stats still count for something if not just as much... Basic stats say that Lavine shot better percentages on more attempts. Which is saying a lot when we're talking about offense first players like them.

Not to mention I believe Harden's team was quite a bit better. That has to count for something too. Harden got his as a bench player against bench rotations and still shot worse %s on less attempts...

Again, I'm not saying that Lavine is or will be better than what Harden has become. But at that age, I don't think Harden is better by a landslide if he was at all...

Exactly. No one really thinks Lavine will be better than Harden. All this talk is just excitement and hope that he can develop some skills that take his game to another level and hopefully become an all star. It kind of irks me to see so many posters just put the kid down constantly. He is super young and has proven he can score in this league and has lots of time to grow as a player. Do we really need to show off Harden numbers to prove that harden is a better player?????

I agree. LaVine has so many tools to become a multiple All-Star. His ceiling in my opinion is a solid 2nd option on a contending team. He has a lot to improve, but the talent is there.

The talent is obviously there. I haven't watched him much, so I can't figure why his advanced numbers are so poor. I'd guess it's related to bad defense. He's the kind of guy it's worth taking a shot on. If he uses his talent and develops some "smarts" he could be a really good player.

[BR0D1E86]

I'm just baffled by this. To the max.

I mean, we've seen countless examples of ACL-injured players becoming shadows of themselves (or just never reaching their potential):

Rose
Rondo
Nate Robinson
Rubio
J. Parker
Gallinari
Shaun Livingston

The list goes on.

Hilarious that Pax said we got a "fantastic young lotto player." Give me a break. It's basically gonna be a countdown to the next time, unless he seriously adjusts and reduces his athletic game, and hopefully it's not after the contract extension.

For Rondo, was it really that ACL tear that made him a role player? Or was it just a result of a very bad fit for todays NBA?

Lähetetty minun LG-H440n laitteesta Tapatalkilla

I think he's the same player he always was, he just doesn't have KG, Pierce and Allen to cover his massive deficiencies. His stats really aren't that different.

[Paxson43]

That's a raw fouls drawn number (I assume), and is entirely driven by his minutes played.

His free throw attempts per field goal attempt has been on a steady decline as his 3Pr rose.

Inverse to his increase in 3 point attempts... shocker!

Not shocking. Still not good. And certainly doesn't bode well for his prospects as a dynamic player on the ball.

Just for reference (and no, I'm not saying LaVine is anywhere near Thompson's level as a shooter/player):

Thompson's career FTr - 0.156
Lavine's career FTr - 0.222

[Chi]

Another good thing about having Lavine is if we ever get a PG that can shoot we already have 1 half of our very own "Splash Brothers".

Even though I don't like that name, but still... Nice to have...

[Stratmaster]

Okay....

Harden (10-11): 15.3 PER, .577 TS%, .453 3PAr, .462 FTr, 1.9 OBPM, 3.7 VORP

LaVine (16-17): 14.4 PER, .560 TS%, .375 3PAr, .206 FTr, 1.5 OBPM, 1.1 VORP

Harden was still better.

I Have to be honest, I don't even know what some of those numbers mean, but if Lavine's career remained as close as that looks to James Harden I'd be pretty thrilled.

And no matter how accurate advanced stats are, basic stats still count for something if not just as much... Basic stats say that Lavine shot better percentages on more attempts. Which is saying a lot when we're talking about offense first players like them.

Not to mention I believe Harden's team was quite a bit better. That has to count for something too. Harden got his as a bench player against bench rotations and still shot worse %s on less attempts...

Again, I'm not saying that Lavine is or will be better than what Harden has become. But at that age, I don't think Harden is better by a landslide if he was at all...

Exactly. No one really thinks Lavine will be better than Harden. All this talk is just excitement and hope that he can develop some skills that take his game to another level and hopefully become an all star. It kind of irks me to see so many posters just put the kid down constantly. He is super young and has proven he can score in this league and has lots of time to grow as a player. Do we really need to show off Harden numbers to prove that harden is a better player?????

Nah, Lavine is over the hill at age 22. No upside and no room for development. Add that he only averaged 19 ppg at the age of 21 as the 3rd option on an NBA team. Why be optimistic?

[Stratmaster]

We'd be much better off offering him an extension before he hits RFA and the Nets or Knicks throw something ridiculous at him.

He's like Butler in a sense in that he'll never be the man, but at that point we won't have much salary, and in a rebuild you can't afford to let a talented 23 year old walk.

The problem with Butler was not that he couldn't be the man, the problem was that he was too good for us to be bad enough to surround him with talent and when they did try...they drafted Doug McDermott.

Heat did it with Wade, Bulls could have done it with Butler. That was the best move and it should of happened last offseason.

I'm unclear. The Heat did "what" with Wade?

[MrFortune3]

The problem with Butler was not that he couldn't be the man, the problem was that he was too good for us to be bad enough to surround him with talent and when they did try...they drafted Doug McDermott.

Heat did it with Wade, Bulls could have done it with Butler. That was the best move and it should of happened last offseason.

I'm unclear. The Heat did "what" with Wade?

He's saying the Heat were able to build around Wade when they had very little talent. That is a misnomer since he was best friends with Bosh and James and they planned to play together. They didn't actually build around him so much as clear cap space.

[Stratmaster]

Heat did it with Wade, Bulls could have done it with Butler. That was the best move and it should of happened last offseason.

I'm unclear. The Heat did "what" with Wade?

He's saying the Heat were able to build around Wade when they had very little talent. That is a misnomer since he was best friends with Bosh and James and they planned to play together. They didn't actually build around him so much as clear cap space.

OK, that is what I thought he was saying and my jaw kind of dropped.

[inescape]

I'm unclear. The Heat did "what" with Wade?

He's saying the Heat were able to build around Wade when they had very little talent. That is a misnomer since he was best friends with Bosh and James and they planned to play together. They didn't actually build around him so much as clear cap space.

OK, that is what I thought he was saying and my jaw kind of dropped.

Its not a misnomer. What is the point in tanking? High draft picks right? What were the heat doing before LeBron and Bosh? Tanking, and getting high draft picks (Beasley). Riley just simply kept his star, which kept his options wide open. Their was no talk of trading Wade, because Riley isn't an idiot.

My point is simply we could be accomplishing the same thing we are doing now, and kept Butler to recruit for 2018. We would of had this past years high pick, next years high pick (don't sign Wade/Rondo, trade Lopez/Taj), cap space, and a star to recruit FAs. The best of both worlds, and a real "process" and real "flexibility".

Butler was traded because they don't want to pay him in two years. Always follow the money with the Bulls.