Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October

[VFX]

I like how bringing up valid, totally vindicated, arguments nobody wants to hear is “petty” now.

Everything we discuss here we should bury so 6-8 years from now nobody gets their feelings hurt.

Yeah I’ll be petty about it then. Still right.

[Residual-Heat]

I heard an interesting suggestion today from Sam Vecenie.

The Magic may use KCP to defend the opponents best player, potentially saving Suggs some effort on that end that he can use to grow his game on the other end, specially Mentioning ball screens.

I hadn’t thought about how hard Jalen works on the defensive end could gave been holding him back a little in the other. They have managed his minutes accordingly. Maybe the KCP signing might have some other impacts we havent considered.

To a lesser degree, Franz will benefit too. I forgot where I saw the stat, but IIRC it said that KCP spent the most time out of anyone else in the NBA guarding the other team's best player. KCP can guard most SFs. Jaylen Brown, Paul George, Mikal Bridges/OG, Middleton, Jimmy. These are the SFs in the east we need to worry about. At times, depending on the match-ups, we will see KCP guarding SFs and Franz guarding SGs.

[pepe1991]

I wanted to make a thread about revisiting the lengths people went to argue against blowing up that team "because continuity was more important for culture" or whatever.

Lets see.

Fournier isn't in the nba anymore after being a bench/role player journeyman 5 years removed.
The Bulls are praying to move Vucevic because he was obviously fools gold and cant win with him as a 4th option.
AG is exactly what most of us knew. He's a role player and 4th option behind Jokic, Murray, and MPJ.

Orlando now has gained a lot more than these role players masquerading as "core" for almost a decade. None of this was/is surprising to people that knew what they were talking about.

Team was trash and it was never ending defense here for it. I should go back into the archive and laugh at those posts.

I highly doubt anybody argued that they are core in sense they should be best players, most people argued that team can add actual star as supporting cast was already there. But ofc, under Weltman any sort of higher risk move is off the table.

Instad, we got cycle of terrible PGs being starters: Payton, Shelv Mack, Fultz, DJ Augustin... i'm probably forgetting some epic name.

I mean, just when you think about notion that Magic won 42 games and their biggest splash in offseason was Al Faruq Aminu, on team with Gordon, Isaac, MCW, Okeke, Iwundu , Ennis. It was literally the only position Magic didn't need ( damn why that sounds so familiar to 2024 summer ? )

That's pretty much problem with adding people who were specific role players on elite teams. You add them to lesser team and they have certain expetations, ones there is no proof they can actually carry. That's probably my biggest fear with KCP , people think he is way better or at least more well rounded player than he is.

People argued against tanking so vehemently that they would have rather rolled out Fournier, Vuc, and AG with no possible alternative to fix the back court issues via draft. Fultz was a last ditch attempt to get any semblance of upside at the position before drafting Cole. Something something culture, winning culture, tanking bad, etc etc. lets watch bad basketball and treadmill.

Man I would have rather they had blown it up sooner than any of those stupid moves - Fultz, Aminu, Simmons, Bacon, Ennis, DJ, etc. Weltman was doing such a good impression of these posters crying about remaining competitive while collecting scrubs to fix a broken roster. Good thing AG asked out so they could end the insanity.

I argued with people that moving AG or Vuc made the most sense. Nope, pages and pages of debate here arguing against tanking for YEARS. Now we have achieved more than any of those teams did with rookie contract players, a #1 draft pick, AND the result of a Vucevic trade (Franz). Three role players that were massively overrated because they wore a Magic jersey and people bought into this idea that guys could develop their way out of a inherently flawed roster.

Man it feels so good to be vindicated after years arguing with idiots that will now conveniently have amnesia or have left this board. I have the receipts. I know who you all are.

Lot of this is nothing but hindsight tho. And combination of piss poor luck and getting luckier later.

People argued against tanking so vehemently that they would have rather rolled out Fournier, Vuc, and AG with no possible alternative to fix the back court issues via draft. Fultz was a last ditch attempt to get any semblance of upside at the position before drafting Cole. Something something culture, winning culture, tanking bad, etc etc. lets watch bad basketball and treadmill.

Magic tanked each and every season from 2012- 2019. Got : Gordon, Oladipo, Hezonja, Bamba , Isaac , Payton ... Nothing to be too proud off.
All 3 people you mentioned were part of rebuild, Vuc was part of Howard trade, Gordon was 4th overall pick after 23-59 season and Evan was part of AA trade.

Again, Gordon, Vuc , Evan were not problem ,problem was fact that front office never actually tried to get A star.
Vuc was pretty damn good for at least 2 years, two time allstar, 22-12-4 guy.
Gordon is still very good player.
Evan was good for several years.

But mostly because our incompetent PG rotation , almost always crappy SF rotation and no actual star in sight we never even got opportunity to see what Vuc- Evan- Gordon can do with better teams.
Didn't help that Bamba fiasco happened and Isaac himself hardly ever played.
Even whole Fultz thing was combination of crappy luck, traded pick that turned into Maxey, got him in 2019, he didn't suit up for 2018-19 for us at all, played 72 games in 19-20, got overpayed and torn ACL right after.


Vuc's value was also best seen in trades that followed. Magic got nothing from Evan, near nothing from Gordon trade other than this mistery 2025 pick from Nuggets, who are still contender.

And things changed, Magic finally won lottery and got lucky from Vuc pick ( Franz).

Let's not get it twisted, current Banchero and Franz, with previous Magic luck could have easly be Jabari Smith and Davion Mitchell or whoever.

I will never be big supporter of sucking for better picks because there are plenty of evidence it doesn't work ( Pistons, Wizards etc). Magic spent almost one whole decade in lottery. Are yet to win playoff series midway through second decade. Sure ,eventually you will win lottery and get some superstar by accident, but you would get probably same results with different approach as well. ( Miami Heat last top 5 pick was selected in 2008, they won two titles and went to several ECF, nba finals in mean time ).

To me, way bigger problem with Weltman is fact that he will hardly ever take bigger risks, rebuild that Magic did wasn't his decision, it was decision of players who quit on him. Fast forward 5 years later, we still talk who among SGs will be playing PG. Nothing really changed with his approach toward running team, team itself just got more lucky in draft ( albet ,he selected them ) and more lucky with injuries.
Our free agency approach is still pure nonsense.
Our bigger stakes moves are still nonexisting.
Our activity in trades is near zero.
Expetations from this team are still "make playoffs and go home".

No matter how much depth Magic have at some positions, we are still one annual Isaac injury, Franz/Paolo twisted ankle away from being playin team. Only thing that changed in nba nowdays is that, unlike in 2012-2020, you can have "good season" by being 5th worst in conference of 15 and still be in play for playoffs.

[VFX]

Ah yes, being completely proven wrong about Orlando’s process in how to raise their ceiling potential for the future is now “nothing but hindsight”. Why? Because it isn’t convenient to have to justify why tanking worked for Orlando in what I believe was 2 seasons total 2020-21 and 2021-22.

I frankly don’t give a **** about anything pre-2017 as it pertains to this discussion. Henigan was fired for attempting to push a star-less team into contention and made poor short sighted decisions to get there. They attempted to tank in 17-18 for the quality draft and botched it between GM’s resulting in Bamba. Going +.500 the very next season proves they were trying to compete with a Dinosaur head coach and just weren’t good.

Nobody argued otherwise about the risks involved with tanking and most of those years certainly were not. Tanking teams don’t hire and fire a carousel of seasoned coaches, while making no roster changes, unless they have expectations. That was the entire argument for 4 years of nonsense here and the reason I’m revisiting any of this.

At the end of the day they are tasked with building a championship team that can make a playoff run. 2017-2021 Magic were not accomplishing that the same way the 2023 Houston Rockets aren’t even after mediocre drafts. The difference is that the 2023 Rockets are attempting to get better by adding talent and assets. So no, it doesn’t matter if you dislike the process. One leads somewhere and one doesn’t. We are seeing that now pay off with 2024 Orlando.

Congratulations, you listed a bunch of players post-Dwight that either aren’t in the nba or are 4th options on their teams. AG landed in the best possible spot, while he plays next to the best player in the world, and Vuc accomplished absolutely nothing except trade regret amongst Bulls fans. They were Orlando’s #1 and #2 options that in their prime and were really fourth options that fans convinced themselves otherwise.

I’m actually loving the cope now that “yeah they were really good”…they just never led Orlando anywhere and tanking/ trading all of those 4th option scrubs for rookie contract players got us further last season than they ever did… but yeah really good players!

You are actually listing all the current reasons 2017-2021 Weltman is the same Weltman you think deserves criticism in 2024. You know you can actually praise his Vuc trade and also be critical of the fact it took him 4-5 years to actually pull it off right? Chicago has culpability in that decision more than anyone would like to justify. Just like we can raise scrutiny over his picks after the top 10 and praise his picks in the top of the lottery.

Nothing really changed with his approach toward running team, team itself just got more lucky in draft ( albet ,he selected them ) and more lucky with injuries.

I agree with you here on all your points about how things are handled..you say Weltman doesn’t take enough risks but concede that when he did it actually paid off.What’s fascinating is that you will say this but defend the idea that tanking wasn’t the right path. Yes, luck matters. Realizing that you aren’t going to win with role players with no ceiling means you might have to run that risk for 1-3 seasons instead of wasting everyone’s time for 3.

Yeah, maybe making a move instead resigning terrible players and never trading them would finally upgrade the back court. Nah, let’s just roll out dog **** 4th options for 4 years and see how it plays out. See how the same logic applies then as it does today? Weltman is the same guy with the same process.

[pepe1991]

There is fundamental difference between what i belive what was right path opposite of what you belive.
To me, if you invest so much time into running back same roster, you own to yourself and that roster chance to win and put them in best situation possible to win. For Isaac, Vuc, Gordon, Evan core right move in that moment in time was getting star player.
If that failed , rebuild would have been only logical next step.
Just like i belive that running back ( and throwing money into ) Banchero, Franz and Suggs, without starting PG is waste of time, and at some point you will need to put them in position to win, or lose them.

Vuc, Evan and Gordon (and Oladipo , Hezonja, Payton, Bamba ) are all products of - tanking. This is not deniable or arguable fact. You don't like this because it shows that tanking doesn't always work.



Feel free to elaborate further why 2012-2018 tanking didn't result in sucess. Matter of fact, 2016-17 season with 29-53 record and 2017-18 season , with 25-57 record both had same , familiar places at lottery dask- Jeff Weltman.

2017 -6th overall pick gave you Jonathan " part of problem- Vuc, Evan, Gordon" core.
2018 - 6th overall pick gave you Bamba, the "Vuc replacer".
Both failed for different reasons, but both were products of indeed -tanking or sucking.
Context of those drafts is very important
2017- 5th worst record - drafted 6th because better team leapfrogged over you.
2018- 5th worst record- drafted 6th because better team leapfrogged over you.
By doing so, you because nothing but luck didn't draft Luka freaking Doncic or Deaaron Fox.
Both selections would change tragjectory and you would never have re-rebuild in 2021 to being with. You can argue that landing Doncic would have been , single biggest moment in Magic history, right there with getting Shaq. But once again - luck played role.


For example, Hennigan would have kept his job for waaaaaaaaay longer if he landed 3rd pick in 2014, when Magic had 3rd worst record, it would have been Embiid.

But this is why i hate to "debate" about tanking as strategy, it's so luck- based. And as somebody who works his whole life in finances and literally in department of planning and analysis , luck will never be viewed as strategy. One day your luck will save you, next time you need it, it will poop your bed.

[VFX]

If Hennigan didn’t meddle in anything it might have worked IF he chose the right picks. Significant caveat but still better than treadmilling out of principle.

Botching a rebuild with bad moves isn’t evidence draft picks didn’t pan out in a 3 year window post Dwight trade. You still have to be smart enough to know when to move players (see Giddey) while they still have some kind of value. It’s an equation that requires all factors and not 1.

Oladipo, Sabonis, next years pick

Roster or trade AG
Roster or trade Vuc
Dont resign or trade EP + Evan.

Look at OKC in retrospect. A team YOU and casuals panned for trading a bunch of guys merely for draft picks. #1 in the West last season after flipping players until they have a working roster. Another example proving small market tank strategy and draft capital is the best decision. An example I specifically used in that 4 year window and again… vindicated.

Philadelphia also might not win a championship but they went from historically bad to outpacing Orlando with a similar strategy. I think we catch up to them eventually but you get the idea. More examples that were panned at the time.

That Hennigan and retread group was never getting that star player. That’s the ENTIRE argument that seems to go over everyone’s head. You and others would say “yeah but Giannis and Jokic were drafted later” like it was even an argument in good faith. That’s why the term is treadmill.

Yeah you are missing the entire point. Listing draft failures is half of the equation. You have to get there to even make the decision. Orlando didn’t and half assed everything with that squad while committing the sin of boring, bad, basketball.

This is similar to arguing that the 2024 Lakers are in a better position than the 2024 Spurs because they made the playoffs. No, the Spurs have a future and the Lakers have questions with limited avenues to maximize talent. I know that might be too complex for most people to wrap their minds around.

You hate the tank strategy because it’s luck based and you hate the debate because it has proven to work regardless of that fact. Orlando’s roster is a result of doing it for two seasons after years of arguing otherwise. The simple fact is that there was nowhere else left for Orlando to go. Weltman did what he always does… paint himself into a corner with no alternatives until he’s forced to make a decision.

[Skybox]

They were right to blow the team up and I also wish they had done it sooner...the "petty" part is lumping Vuc into the group as a "4th option" like Evan or AG. Vuc was a deserved All-Star twice, putting up better numbers & efficiency than our present All-Star savior, Paolo. He was also traded, in hindight, at the right time - considering the return. I'm not insane enough to start a Paolo vs Vuc debate (especially given ages, positions, ceilings, etc) but it's revisionist to toss Vuc onto the same scrap heap as much lesser players. I might add that AG is basically the same player he was and should've been if he had a better fitting team with an actual setup man on the roster...which we still lack. Prime Vuc, AG, and Isaac with a decent backcourt leader could certainly have been a strong team.

Blanket statements about tanking are as worthless as presuming that every trade is great or terrible..."trades are bad". IF we had gotten #4 instead of #1 or went with Jabari over Paolo and/or Moody over Franz, we'd still be looking up from the bottom. There's no absolutes in evaluating the different ways to successfully build a contender. I believe tank & draft is the right way - but it's got its own tremendous reliance on luck and a very clear ceiling period - where you'd better make trades to surround your solid picks with the right cast. Our FO hasn't shown that ability or willingness yet...KCP is fun-but noone would suggest that that is a move to contention.

[Skybox]

You have to wonder is Weltman focusing on earning an easier bonus for "Best Defensive Team" and tapping out on the much more difficult "Build A Contender" award category?

[VFX]

They were right to blow the team up and I also wish they had done it sooner...the "petty" part is lumping Vuc into the group as a "4th option" like Evan or AG. Vuc was a deserved All-Star twice, putting up better numbers & efficiency than our present All-Star savior, Paolo. He was also traded, in hindight, at the right time - considering the return. I'm not insane enough to start a Paolo vs Vuc debate (especially given ages, positions, ceilings, etc) but it's revisionist to toss Vuc onto the same scrap heap as much lesser players. I might add that AG is basically the same player he was and should've been if he had a better fitting team with an actual setup man on the roster...which we still lack. Prime Vuc, AG, and Isaac with a decent backcourt leader could certainly have been a strong team.

Blanket statements about tanking are as worthless as presuming that every trade is great or terrible..."trades are bad". IF we had gotten #4 instead of #1 or went with Jabari over Paolo and/or Moody over Franz, we'd still be looking up from the bottom. There's no absolutes in evaluating the different ways to successfully build a contender. I believe tank & draft is the right way - but it's got its own tremendous reliance on luck and a very clear ceiling period - where you'd better make trades to surround your solid picks with the right cast. Our FO hasn't shown that ability or willingness yet...KCP is fun-but noone would suggest that that is a move to contention.

Kevin Love was a massive upcoming superstar and the best thing since sliced bread circa 2010-2014. Same **** with Vucevic. Bad team, bad offense everywhere else, good numbers. Goes to a real team with talent and becomes a third option.

He was wearing a Magic jersey so you are inclined to feel otherwise. That’s fine.

That team with Vuc, AG, and JI was abysmal predictable offense. The roster made no sense and was like watching something in the mid 90s. Vuc appeared great because he touched the ball every possession.

People might have a better argument if that team had actual star talent next to him or even 1 other player capable of allstar votes while he put up those numbers. Never did.

[eyriq]

You have to wonder...

No, you don't.

[Skybox]

They were right to blow the team up and I also wish they had done it sooner...the "petty" part is lumping Vuc into the group as a "4th option" like Evan or AG. Vuc was a deserved All-Star twice, putting up better numbers & efficiency than our present All-Star savior, Paolo. He was also traded, in hindight, at the right time - considering the return. I'm not insane enough to start a Paolo vs Vuc debate (especially given ages, positions, ceilings, etc) but it's revisionist to toss Vuc onto the same scrap heap as much lesser players. I might add that AG is basically the same player he was and should've been if he had a better fitting team with an actual setup man on the roster...which we still lack. Prime Vuc, AG, and Isaac with a decent backcourt leader could certainly have been a strong team.

Blanket statements about tanking are as worthless as presuming that every trade is great or terrible..."trades are bad". IF we had gotten #4 instead of #1 or went with Jabari over Paolo and/or Moody over Franz, we'd still be looking up from the bottom. There's no absolutes in evaluating the different ways to successfully build a contender. I believe tank & draft is the right way - but it's got its own tremendous reliance on luck and a very clear ceiling period - where you'd better make trades to surround your solid picks with the right cast. Our FO hasn't shown that ability or willingness yet...KCP is fun-but noone would suggest that that is a move to contention.

Kevin Love was a massive upcoming superstar and the best thing since sliced bread circa 2010-2014. Same **** with Vucevic. Bad team, bad offense everywhere else, good numbers. Goes to a real team with talent and becomes a third option.

He was wearing a Magic jersey so you are inclined to feel otherwise. That’s fine.
I've got NOOO problem questioning the value of players on our roster...that should be clear by now

That team with Vuc, AG, and JI was abysmal predictable offense. The roster made no sense and was like watching something in the mid 90s. Vuc appeared great because he touched the ball every possession.

So you really don't like predictable offense? Strap in...it should be a bit better just from, hopefully, improved floor spacers...but if you're expecting some dynamic improvement in ORL's weak side of the court, I'd love to hear what it's based on other than just "developing Paolo & Franz to be more efficient" (whatever that actually equates to)

As far as Vuc fooling everyone - I'm going to side with the judgment of the NBA coaches who put him on the All-Star team over armchair warriors.

[Skybox]

You have to wonder...

No, you don't.

what will we do between cat videos and rehashing garbage from the last decade?

[VFX]

They were right to blow the team up and I also wish they had done it sooner...the "petty" part is lumping Vuc into the group as a "4th option" like Evan or AG. Vuc was a deserved All-Star twice, putting up better numbers & efficiency than our present All-Star savior, Paolo. He was also traded, in hindight, at the right time - considering the return. I'm not insane enough to start a Paolo vs Vuc debate (especially given ages, positions, ceilings, etc) but it's revisionist to toss Vuc onto the same scrap heap as much lesser players. I might add that AG is basically the same player he was and should've been if he had a better fitting team with an actual setup man on the roster...which we still lack. Prime Vuc, AG, and Isaac with a decent backcourt leader could certainly have been a strong team.

Blanket statements about tanking are as worthless as presuming that every trade is great or terrible..."trades are bad". IF we had gotten #4 instead of #1 or went with Jabari over Paolo and/or Moody over Franz, we'd still be looking up from the bottom. There's no absolutes in evaluating the different ways to successfully build a contender. I believe tank & draft is the right way - but it's got its own tremendous reliance on luck and a very clear ceiling period - where you'd better make trades to surround your solid picks with the right cast. Our FO hasn't shown that ability or willingness yet...KCP is fun-but noone would suggest that that is a move to contention.

Kevin Love was a massive upcoming superstar and the best thing since sliced bread circa 2010-2014. Same **** with Vucevic. Bad team, bad offense everywhere else, good numbers. Goes to a real team with talent and becomes a third option.

He was wearing a Magic jersey so you are inclined to feel otherwise. That’s fine.
I've got NOOO problem questioning the value of players on our roster...that should be clear by now

That team with Vuc, AG, and JI was abysmal predictable offense. The roster made no sense and was like watching something in the mid 90s. Vuc appeared great because he touched the ball every possession.

So you really don't like predictable offense? Strap in...it should be a bit better just from, hopefully, improved floor spacers...but if you're expecting some dynamic improvement in ORL's weak side of the court, I'd love to hear what it's based on other than just "developing Paolo & Franz to be more efficient" (whatever that actually equates to)

As far as Vuc fooling everyone - I'm going to side with the judgment of the NBA coaches who put him on the All-Star team over armchair warriors.

Meh.

Orlando has assets now unlike that stretch of time people somehow remember fondly for whatever reason. Weltman can consolidate some pieces to improve things. Maybe this takes another 4 years though and Gary Harris has to retire first

Yeah I’m not worried about the development of Suggs, Franz, and Paolo. They are ahead of schedule and just need the FO and Mosely to figure out an offense. Maybe that never happens. Would be a shame if not.

Yeah Vuc earned those allstar votes for sure. Wonder why he wasn’t able to earn any in the last 3 seasons playing next to guys that actually score the basketball. Very mysterious. Almost like there is a correlation.

[eyriq]

You have to wonder...

No, you don't.

what will we do between cat videos and rehashing garbage from the last decade?

Haha, fine, carry on.

[eyriq]

The Hennigan era was fun in the beginning. Youngest GM in history with a plan to rebuild through the draft. Vooch, Victor, Gordon, Payton, and Hezonja were the foundation built up after several seasons of tanking. Never did identify a franchise player, and attempts to accelerate the rebuild failed miserably.

I think you can break the '10s into several periods:

The Tank: 2012 - 2014 (drafted Oladipo, Gordon, Payton, and Hezonja)
The Acceleration: 2015 - 2017 (Hired Skiles and then Vogel, traded upside for win-now players)
The Re-tool: 2018 - 2020 (Fired Hennigan, tried to salvage things, with some success.)

I was fine with the tank. The problem was one of consistency. Accelerating the rebuild was a panic move and sabotaged everything. It introduced discontinuity and sacrificed player development. Weltman is older, wiser, and more respected, he'll not allow meddling factors to ruin the process.

[jonbob17]

The Hennigan era was fun in the beginning. Youngest GM in history with a plan to rebuild through the draft. Vooch, Victor, Gordon, Payton, and Hezonja were the foundation built up after several seasons of tanking. Never did identify a franchise player, and attempts to accelerate the rebuild failed miserably.

I think you can break the '10s into several periods:

The Tank: 2012 - 2014 (drafted Oladipo, Gordon, Payton, and Hezonja)
The Acceleration: 2015 - 2017 (Hired Skiles and then Vogel, traded upside for win-now players)
The Re-tool: 2018 - 2020 (Fired Hennigan, tried to salvage things, with some success.)

I was fine with the tank. The problem was one of consistency. Accelerating the rebuild was a panic move and sabotaged everything. It introduced discontinuity and sacrificed player development. Weltman is older, wiser, and more respected, he'll not allow meddling factors to ruin the process.

Not defending Hennigan, like at all. The Harris (leaving) and Oaldipo trades were abysmal. He was plagued by bad draft luck. We get the 2nd overall pick in one of the worst drafts in the last 40 years in 2013.
2014 a three player draft we pick 4th. Letting the Elfrid Payton cat out of the bag was a rather large error, and Philly owned him for it, and makes you appreciate how tight lipped the current management team is.

At the time of the 2015 draft it was viewed as a 4 player draft, porzingis a late riser. And of course we pick 5th and it was a huge swing and a miss.

It would have been interesting if he had admitted the failure to obtain star players and tried to rebuild, but succumbing to the pressure to win proved to be his fatal flaw.

[eyriq]

The Hennigan era was fun in the beginning. Youngest GM in history with a plan to rebuild through the draft. Vooch, Victor, Gordon, Payton, and Hezonja were the foundation built up after several seasons of tanking. Never did identify a franchise player, and attempts to accelerate the rebuild failed miserably.

I think you can break the '10s into several periods:

The Tank: 2012 - 2014 (drafted Oladipo, Gordon, Payton, and Hezonja)
The Acceleration: 2015 - 2017 (Hired Skiles and then Vogel, traded upside for win-now players)
The Re-tool: 2018 - 2020 (Fired Hennigan, tried to salvage things, with some success.)

I was fine with the tank. The problem was one of consistency. Accelerating the rebuild was a panic move and sabotaged everything. It introduced discontinuity and sacrificed player development. Weltman is older, wiser, and more respected, he'll not allow meddling factors to ruin the process.

Not defending Hennigan, like at all. The Harris (leaving) and Oaldipo trades were abysmal. He was plagued by bad draft luck. We get the 2nd overall pick in one of the worst drafts in the last 40 years in 2013.
2014 a three player draft we pick 4th. Letting the Elfrid Payton cat out of the bag was a rather large error, and Philly owned him for it, and makes you appreciate how tight lipped the current management team is.

At the time of the 2015 draft it was viewed as a 4 player draft, porzingis a late riser. And of course we pick 5th and it was a huge swing and a miss.

It would have been interesting if he had admitted the failure to obtain star players and tried to rebuild, but succumbing to the pressure to win proved to be his fatal flaw.

I agree 100%. Lottery luck didn't work out in his favor, but instead of staying with it he succumbed to the pressure to win. Such a shame.

The funny thing is we have a vocal group that hammers Weltman for not accelerating this rebuild with win-now trades.

[Skybox]

Drafting Good players is good. Drafting bad players is bad. Drafting is not bad

Trading for Good players is good. Trading good players for bad ones is bad. Trading is not bad.

*previous rebuild was blown up by bad trades, delayed liquidations, etc...doesn't mean it's better to sit on your thumbs. Just do better at what GMs are supposed to do.

[eyriq]

Drafting Good players is good. Drafting bad players is bad. Drafting is not bad

Trading for Good players is good. Trading good players for bad ones is bad. Trading is not bad.

*previous rebuild was blown up by bad trades, delayed liquidations, etc...doesn't mean it's better to sit on your thumbs. Just do better at what GMs are supposed to do.

It's the principle of it. When building through the draft you need to focus on player development, not trading upside for win-now.

[pepe1991]

The Hennigan era was fun in the beginning. Youngest GM in history with a plan to rebuild through the draft. Vooch, Victor, Gordon, Payton, and Hezonja were the foundation built up after several seasons of tanking. Never did identify a franchise player, and attempts to accelerate the rebuild failed miserably.

I think you can break the '10s into several periods:

The Tank: 2012 - 2014 (drafted Oladipo, Gordon, Payton, and Hezonja)
The Acceleration: 2015 - 2017 (Hired Skiles and then Vogel, traded upside for win-now players)
The Re-tool: 2018 - 2020 (Fired Hennigan, tried to salvage things, with some success.)

I was fine with the tank. The problem was one of consistency. Accelerating the rebuild was a panic move and sabotaged everything. It introduced discontinuity and sacrificed player development. Weltman is older, wiser, and more respected, he'll not allow meddling factors to ruin the process.

Hennigan era was bit more complicated.

He was forced into rebuild because there was no other way, problem is when you are rebuilding but you have nothing to suck for.

2013 draft is golden example of waste of time.
Magic won 20 games, ended up with Oladipo. Oladipo is only allstar selected in lottery from that draft. So, despite getting BPA, he still didn't "win" because draft was one of worst in past 30 years.

2014 rolls and we still suck, we have 3rd worst record , but we fall back to 4# in draft. 1-2-3: Wiggins- Jabari - Embiid. But instad of Embiid, we draf Gordon. Who is good player but Embiid is Embiid and top 10 player.

Payton selection had as spectacular backfire as Toby Harris trade ( traded up, got worst player, lost two picks in process ).

But back to draft, 2015 , 5th worst record, 5th overall pick. Problem? Best players going 1-2-4. Hezonja at 5# and each and every player selected: 6,7,8,9,10 bombed. Matter of fact i think only 5 out of 25 players taken 5-30 / First round are actually still in NBA. Sure Booker and Turner were there, but not really considered top 5 talents.

2016 draft and Sabonis wasn't his pick, Presti told him who to draft to make trade possible.


With just little bit luck, his tennure could have been Embiid and Porzingis, he also, btw tried to draft Porzingis in 2014, but he didn't enter draft.

Getting lucky and drafting good AND running team are two separated things you should judge GM on.

Billy King is easly one of the worst GMs of all time, but guy was low key good at drafting:
Drafted Iguodala at 9#
found Lou Williams at 45th
Thad Young at 12
Bojan Bogdanovic in second round
Mason Plumlee 22#

At the end of a day more often than not GMs faith and perception is viewed through things he hardly ever had much control over ( draft lottery) but good teams leveradge other paths and not just rely on one strategy to save them.
Nuggets won championship with 1 lottery pick selected by them- Murray. They "won" Porter by missing playoffs with 46 wins and selecting last in lottery.
Celtics won title by benefiting from Billy King's epic blunder but also by taking massive risks with whole bunch of trades over years.
Bucks main core was made out of non lottery selected players etc.