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Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread.

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Re: Re: 

Post#541 » by Kanyewest » Fri May 1, 2015 5:53 am

hands11 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:I used to think Wall is not too bright. I think Gortat's version is on point. He's been the same player. Now that he's not restricted to be utilized in a way that limits his touches and running lanes, Wall is finding him more.

Hands, that's a great analogy about the wide receiver. I do believe Wall wanted more physical toughness from Gortat. Marcin Gortat has an ego. A huge one. He started speaking out more as the Wizards slumped.

You and I agree 100% on Wittman and his stubborn resistance to use Gooden and his preferred Nene over Drew and Marcin. It's no surprise the offense got better once Randy Wittman switched to using Gortat with Gooden or Pierce at PF. Now Wall and Gortat are in sync.

They have a healthy relationship IMO. Disagreement at least means both speak out. Gortat's play commands respect. So does Wall's.

The guy I am happy with in all of this is Nene. He hit the boards hard last round, despite playing around the same minutes as Gooden. Nene accepted the backup C role.


I will say that small ball has worked and stretching out the floor has been better. Still, there are games where Nene has been better than Gortat. For instance in game 1, the Wizards lost the lead in the 4th quarter with Gortat on the floor and Nene on the bench. Nene stepped in for Gortat in overtime and the Wizards held the Raptors scoreless until less than 30 seconds left in the overtime period.

Nene and Gortat also played well together in game 4, then again so did everyone in the blowout but it was still impressive.

I also don't think Wittman was stubborn not to use Gooden. He simply wasn't as good as Humphries early in the season. As the season has progressed, Gooden has played himself into better shape, started knocking down 3s, and he also picked up his defense.


He pretty much didnt play from Fri 11/7 to Mon 2/9

He was 3-7 from 3 to start the year before riding the pins and the team was 4-2

He made 3s when he got regular minutes and they played him more with the starter.

You pretty much just made up a story without any data or actually observation to support it.

Hey. I enjoyed the Hump mid range game, hustle and rebonding. But he doesn't shoot 3s. Nor does Nene. Nor does Kevin. Nor does Gortat.

Gooden does. And he is 6-10 250 and does lots the same stuff Hump does. He hustles. Gooden get more tip backs. Both take charges. Both rebound though Hump is probably more consistent there.

And before I hear about Humps big rebounding game.

Without looking. You know what Gooden season high was. Write down the number and then look here.

Spoiler:
17


How about his season average from 3

Spoiler:
.390 on 1.2 attempts


We needed a S4. We had a S4/S5.. not hind sight. We know that going into the season. And I have projected line ups with it before he season.

Randy missed it.
And along with Randy, lots of the board missed it as well calling Gooden trash. It seems some are still missing it and making excuses for why Randy missed it. Is Gooden an AS? No. Did he have a lower TS then Hump .. yes. That isn't the point. The point is Gooden stretched the floor in way Hum didn't because Hump refused to step behind the 3 line.

And a S4 behind the 3 line at the top of the key, that opened the offense.

Its no secret Randy is old school. Has an old school offense and that he is stubborn as a mule. No reason to make excuses for that.


Humphries posted a higher TS%, better offensive rating, and better defensive rating than Gooden in the regular season. And of course Humphries is a better rebounder than Gooden while Gooden is a better passer.

I agree that Gooden is the better player now but to say that he was better than Humphries before is 20/20 hindsight that wasn't backed up by the data IMO.

I am happy that Gooden did pick up his play to close out the season. For now, he's a better option going forward then Humphries if he can keep it up.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#542 » by hands11 » Fri May 1, 2015 1:56 pm

Some of us have been calling for this since preseason and throughout the year.
As for the stats on TS. I already listed that. And said he is was a better rebounder. And said that wasn't the point and it isn't.
Because you know who else Hump has as a better offensive rating then ? Wall, Beal, Nene
And his defensive rating is better then Otto and Beal for what its worth. Which really isn't the point.

Gooden is a good enough rebounder. Ranked just below Gortat on the team. His defense isn't good in space but that's not uncommon for a 6-10 player. He takes charges. He passes. He has good energy. He get more tip ins then anyone on the team. and

He shoots 3s. He was the S4/S5 they could have used anytime they wanted.. All year.

They needed to find him mins on the floor with Wall and Gortat and other 3 pt shooters.

At least its coming together now. And they have Paul playing some S4. And that combination helps a lot. Specially with Otto out there playing like he is.

End result. Gortat had a TS of .742 in the first round on 11.2 attempts / 36
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#543 » by krii » Fri May 1, 2015 3:04 pm

Actually I would love to see how other fans in NBA ranks Gortat among centers. Is he recognized as top ten or not.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#544 » by hands11 » Fri May 1, 2015 10:29 pm

krii wrote:Actually I would love to see how other fans in NBA ranks Gortat among centers. Is he recognized as top ten or not.


I would suspect knowledgeable NBA fans know his name and think of him as an ok center. Middle of the road type.

I wouldn't expect a lot to think of him much more then that because the whole spread floor Gortat thing would not be something they have followed and that's not something we have seen much of.

You have this one series they would know about and they would likely say... yeah the TOR team wasn't all that.

If we continue this and beat say ATL and he plays well...then people will start to take more notice.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#545 » by hands11 » Fri May 1, 2015 11:58 pm

http://www.monumentalnetwork.com/videos/marcin-gortat-5-1-15

The Hammer speaks...

Still a little grumpy.. Still no commenting on stuff to talk about in the exist interview.

I really hope they get out of the 2nd round. That will help clean up some of these hard feelings over how things went during the season.

And no doubt Gortat has a opportunity to elevate his name among centers the deeper they go. He sounds a bit salty about not being viewed as an All Star. I think he really wants that. Well the best way to get it is to out play other All Starts.

No doubt he blame Randy a good bit for pulling him in the 4th quarter of all those games. All Star are not usually riding the bench in the 4th quarter.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#546 » by J-Ves » Sat May 2, 2015 12:47 am

hands11 wrote:http://www.monumentalnetwork.com/videos/marcin-gortat-5-1-15

The Hammer speaks...

Still a little grumpy.. Still no commenting on stuff to talk about in the exist interview.

I really hope they get out of the 2nd round. That will help clean up some of these hard feelings over how things went during the season.

And no doubt Gortat has a opportunity to elevate his name among centers the deeper they go.

He is clearly pissed about his playing time and maybe even his role in the offense. I'm not too worried about it though, hes a professional and he got his money last off season. He is the best big on the roster but Witt has the right to try to keep his minutes under control and have him as fresh as possible for the post season.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#547 » by payitforward » Sun May 3, 2015 2:02 am

nate33 wrote:How many centers have been better than Marcin Gortat this year? I can't name 10.

Cousins
Duncan
Jordan
Horford
M.Gasol

Who else?

You can make a case for:
P.Gasol
Howard
Gobert
Chandler

Gasol is weak on the defensive end. Howard hasn't played much. Gobert isn't much on offense. Chandler is a real low usage player on offense. They all have an argument over Gortat, but it's not a sure thing.

I don't count Whiteside who only plays half the game and for just half the season. Bogut and Drummond are solid, but I don't think they've been as good as Gortat.

I think this both overstates and understates Gortat's season. Just looking at guys who played 2000+ minutes, off the numbers (wch is all that counts, since we're not seeing the other guys as much as we see Marcin), Chandler has been better, and so has Drummond. So has Gobert (what a bargain that guy is turning out to be!). Add Jordan, and I'm not sure there's anyone else to add! Valanciunas, overall, has been a bit better. Maybe Noah as well. Asik didn't quite get to 2000 minutes,

But Marc Gasol hasn't been as good as Gortat, and neither have Horford or Cousins for that matter. The other guys mentioned are mostly 4s.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#548 » by Tricky_Kid » Sun May 3, 2015 5:54 am

hands11 wrote:http://www.monumentalnetwork.com/videos/marcin-gortat-5-1-15

The Hammer speaks...

Still a little grumpy.. Still no commenting on stuff to talk about in the exist interview.

I really hope they get out of the 2nd round. That will help clean up some of these hard feelings over how things went during the season.

And no doubt Gortat has a opportunity to elevate his name among centers the deeper they go. He sounds a bit salty about not being viewed as an All Star. I think he really wants that. Well the best way to get it is to out play other All Starts.

No doubt he blame Randy a good bit for pulling him in the 4th quarter of all those games. All Star are not usually riding the bench in the 4th quarter.


"No comments about mins in 4th quarters ... saving my money" lol that means He was fined by Wittman or organization for past comments about coach and PT
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#549 » by nate33 » Sun May 3, 2015 1:40 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:How many centers have been better than Marcin Gortat this year? I can't name 10.

Cousins
Duncan
Jordan
Horford
M.Gasol

Who else?

You can make a case for:
P.Gasol
Howard
Gobert
Chandler

Gasol is weak on the defensive end. Howard hasn't played much. Gobert isn't much on offense. Chandler is a real low usage player on offense. They all have an argument over Gortat, but it's not a sure thing.

I don't count Whiteside who only plays half the game and for just half the season. Bogut and Drummond are solid, but I don't think they've been as good as Gortat.

I think this both overstates and understates Gortat's season. Just looking at guys who played 2000+ minutes, off the numbers (wch is all that counts, since we're not seeing the other guys as much as we see Marcin), Chandler has been better, and so has Drummond. So has Gobert (what a bargain that guy is turning out to be!). Add Jordan, and I'm not sure there's anyone else to add! Valanciunas, overall, has been a bit better. Maybe Noah as well. Asik didn't quite get to 2000 minutes,

But Marc Gasol hasn't been as good as Gortat, and neither have Horford or Cousins for that matter. The other guys mentioned are mostly 4s.

Numbers are not all that counts because all of basketball isn't measured by numbers. For example, the box score plus minus data shows that Gortat is considerably more effective than Andre Drummond in causing his team to outscore the opponent, even though Drummond has better box score stats. Gortat rotates better than Drummond, shows better on the pick and roll, he challenges better at the rim without fouling, he plays help defense without letting his man run free.

Gortat ranks 5th in the league in Real Plus/Minus among centers who average 25 or more minutes per game.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#550 » by JWizmentality » Sun May 3, 2015 1:53 pm

Tricky_Kid wrote:
hands11 wrote:http://www.monumentalnetwork.com/videos/marcin-gortat-5-1-15

The Hammer speaks...

Still a little grumpy.. Still no commenting on stuff to talk about in the exist interview.

I really hope they get out of the 2nd round. That will help clean up some of these hard feelings over how things went during the season.

And no doubt Gortat has a opportunity to elevate his name among centers the deeper they go. He sounds a bit salty about not being viewed as an All Star. I think he really wants that. Well the best way to get it is to out play other All Starts.

No doubt he blame Randy a good bit for pulling him in the 4th quarter of all those games. All Star are not usually riding the bench in the 4th quarter.


"No comments about mins in 4th quarters ... saving my money" lol that means He was fined by Wittman or organization for past comments about coach and PT

While Gortat's play wasn't exactly stellar at some points in the season , benching him in the fourth was a travesty.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#551 » by payitforward » Mon May 4, 2015 12:41 am

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:How many centers have been better than Marcin Gortat this year? I can't name 10.

Cousins
Duncan
Jordan
Horford
M.Gasol

Who else?

You can make a case for:
P.Gasol
Howard
Gobert
Chandler

Gasol is weak on the defensive end. Howard hasn't played much. Gobert isn't much on offense. Chandler is a real low usage player on offense. They all have an argument over Gortat, but it's not a sure thing.

I don't count Whiteside who only plays half the game and for just half the season. Bogut and Drummond are solid, but I don't think they've been as good as Gortat.

I think this both overstates and understates Gortat's season. Just looking at guys who played 2000+ minutes, off the numbers (wch is all that counts, since we're not seeing the other guys as much as we see Marcin), Chandler has been better, and so has Drummond. So has Gobert (what a bargain that guy is turning out to be!). Add Jordan, and I'm not sure there's anyone else to add! Valanciunas, overall, has been a bit better. Maybe Noah as well. Asik didn't quite get to 2000 minutes,

But Marc Gasol hasn't been as good as Gortat, and neither have Horford or Cousins for that matter. The other guys mentioned are mostly 4s.

(box score) Numbers are not all that counts because all of basketball isn't measured by (box score) numbers. For example, the box score plus minus data shows that Gortat is considerably more effective than Andre Drummond in causing his team to outscore the opponent, even though Drummond has better box score stats. Gortat rotates better than Drummond, shows better on the pick and roll, he challenges better at the rim without fouling, he plays help defense without letting his man run free.

Gortat ranks 5th in the league in Real Plus/Minus among centers who average 25 or more minutes per game.

Well, I added "(box score)" to "numbers" -- since you you use R Plus/Minus numbers to contradict the importance of Drummond's "better box score stats." I.e. it's not "numbers" but "box score numbers" that don't suffice to measure "all of basketball."

Well, all of wins and losses, obviously, is "measured by box score numbers" -- at the team level. The box score of the first Wizards/Hawks game includes all the data that "measures" the fact that the Wizards won.

It's going from the team to the individual level that introduces doubt. That's totally fair: how do we know that box score numbers by individual are really totally individual? A guy gets an easy bucket off a great pass. Another guy receives a pass with 1 second on the clock and *must* throw up a hopeless shot, etc.

So, when you look at RP/M, you're trying to point out at at least some of that inter-dependance of plays/players that isn't captured by simple box score stats. Do I have that right? It's like you want to go from "the box score numbers" to "what causes the box score numbers."

But, hasn't Kev pointed out that RP/M is a very "dirty" stat? So that it in fact it *doesn't* tell you what you'd like it to tell you? And wouldn't that be kind of obvious in trying to use it to compare the effect of Drummond on his teammates vs. Gortat on his? They're not the same players! We don't have any idea what Gortat's effect would be on the Pistons. Ditto Drummond's effect on the Wizards' players.

Anyway, looking at the link you supply, are you sure you really think Zaza Pachulia is the #2 Center in the league? Kelly Olynyk is more effective than Rudy Gobert? Oh and better than Dwight Howard too? You want Ajinca if I remember right. Why, when you could have Joel Anthony instead? He's better than Chris Bosh! At least that's what the list you sent me claims.

Maybe not. And so... I think I'm safe in saying that I can't rely on the list as a reason to think Gortat had a better season than Drummond.

Btw, since you started this thread making the point that very few Centers had better seasons than Gortat this year, and my post did no more than agree with you and in fact underline the point by saying that maybe it was even fewer than the very few you named, why did you decide to argue with me? Why'd you do it by giving me a list that shows Gortat below a number of other Centers you just said he was above? Do tell.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#552 » by hands11 » Mon May 4, 2015 2:00 am

Tricky_Kid wrote:
hands11 wrote:http://www.monumentalnetwork.com/videos/marcin-gortat-5-1-15

The Hammer speaks...

Still a little grumpy.. Still no commenting on stuff to talk about in the exist interview.

I really hope they get out of the 2nd round. That will help clean up some of these hard feelings over how things went during the season.

And no doubt Gortat has a opportunity to elevate his name among centers the deeper they go. He sounds a bit salty about not being viewed as an All Star. I think he really wants that. Well the best way to get it is to out play other All Starts.

No doubt he blame Randy a good bit for pulling him in the 4th quarter of all those games. All Star are not usually riding the bench in the 4th quarter.


"No comments about mins in 4th quarters ... saving my money" lol that means He was fined by Wittman or organization for past comments about coach and PT


I don't think it means he was fined.. But he might have been warned.

I think if he was fined, that probably goes to the players association and we would have heard about it.

Gortat .. with no Nene was +10

but part of that was the -5 run that happened right after Wall fell on his wrist.

Gortat no Nene in the 2nd half was +17

We got you Hammer. We know what's really what. You can be an All Star next year bro.. Just keep winning right now.

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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#553 » by MarcoPolo » Mon May 4, 2015 10:31 am

1st game vs. Hawks

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1uhnrTQzaY[/youtube]
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#554 » by krii » Mon May 4, 2015 12:01 pm

I'm more impressed with his advanced stats as of late ... In April his offensive rating amounts to 110.6 while defensive reached 93.5. THAT is impressive
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#555 » by Ruzious » Mon May 4, 2015 1:01 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:How many centers have been better than Marcin Gortat this year? I can't name 10.

Cousins
Duncan
Jordan
Horford
M.Gasol

Who else?

You can make a case for:
P.Gasol
Howard
Gobert
Chandler

Gasol is weak on the defensive end. Howard hasn't played much. Gobert isn't much on offense. Chandler is a real low usage player on offense. They all have an argument over Gortat, but it's not a sure thing.

I don't count Whiteside who only plays half the game and for just half the season. Bogut and Drummond are solid, but I don't think they've been as good as Gortat.

I think this both overstates and understates Gortat's season. Just looking at guys who played 2000+ minutes, off the numbers (wch is all that counts, since we're not seeing the other guys as much as we see Marcin), Chandler has been better, and so has Drummond. So has Gobert (what a bargain that guy is turning out to be!). Add Jordan, and I'm not sure there's anyone else to add! Valanciunas, overall, has been a bit better. Maybe Noah as well. Asik didn't quite get to 2000 minutes,

But Marc Gasol hasn't been as good as Gortat, and neither have Horford or Cousins for that matter. The other guys mentioned are mostly 4s.

Focusing on Jonny V, Gortat, and Marc Gasol, in my mind anyway - there's no question Gortat is far more effective than JV while Gasol is far more effective than Gortat. We saw Gortat's dominance in the playoffs, but even in the regular season, you had to question JV because Toronto was so much better when he was off the court. Gasol is arguably a great player - certainly better than Gortat. Cousins is also better by a clear margin - even with the turnovers and fouls. Asik is an average player at this point.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#556 » by J-Ves » Mon May 4, 2015 1:15 pm

In the 5 playoff games hes played he leads all players in WS/48 at .301. He has a PER of 25.9. I don't know where he ranks among centers in the regular season, but right now hes playing at an MVP level.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#557 » by Kanyewest » Mon May 4, 2015 1:16 pm

Gortat has been playing great lately although to add to Nate's list, I would add somewhere to you could make a case for would include Al Jefferson and Vucevic. BTW, I'm not sure what to categorize guys like Duncan and Gasol who play 4 but can also play center, and if we go by that logic, Davis also plays extended minutes at center with Ryan Anderson in the lineup.

I'm also sure some would make the case for Hibbert and Lopez but I would personally prefer Gortat.
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#558 » by krii » Mon May 4, 2015 2:43 pm

RoLo has been outplayed badly by Gortat back in Phoenix. A lot of people in PHX thought that he is much better then ORL reserve center they just traded and that Gortat will only stimulate RoLo to play better basketball. The reality was RoLo sitting on a bench just after a few months and Gortat averaging 13/9 (2010/11) and 15/10 (2011/12).

I remember Suns fans who were shocked how good MG has been and how quickly he understood the game with Steve Nash (that wasn't that easy - look at the numbers of other Suns C's that played with him since 2009). Robin is a good player but not as good as sometimes he is advertised to be. I do feel that guys like Gasol or DMC are much better than Marcin but c'mon - Robin is just a league average, bottom 15/20 C's IMO while Gortat may be classified as arguable top ten.
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Re: Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#559 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon May 4, 2015 2:52 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:How many centers have been better than Marcin Gortat this year? I can't name 10.

Cousins
Duncan
Jordan
Horford
M.Gasol

Who else?

You can make a case for:
P.Gasol
Howard
Gobert
Chandler

Gasol is weak on the defensive end. Howard hasn't played much. Gobert isn't much on offense. Chandler is a real low usage player on offense. They all have an argument over Gortat, but it's not a sure thing.

I don't count Whiteside who only plays half the game and for just half the season. Bogut and Drummond are solid, but I don't think they've been as good as Gortat.

I think this both overstates and understates Gortat's season. Just looking at guys who played 2000+ minutes, off the numbers (wch is all that counts, since we're not seeing the other guys as much as we see Marcin), Chandler has been better, and so has Drummond. So has Gobert (what a bargain that guy is turning out to be!). Add Jordan, and I'm not sure there's anyone else to add! Valanciunas, overall, has been a bit better. Maybe Noah as well. Asik didn't quite get to 2000 minutes,

But Marc Gasol hasn't been as good as Gortat, and neither have Horford or Cousins for that matter. The other guys mentioned are mostly 4s.

Numbers are not all that counts because all of basketball isn't measured by numbers. For example, the box score plus minus data shows that Gortat is considerably more effective than Andre Drummond in causing his team to outscore the opponent, even though Drummond has better box score stats. Gortat rotates better than Drummond, shows better on the pick and roll, he challenges better at the rim without fouling, he plays help defense without letting his man run free.

Gortat ranks 5th in the league in Real Plus/Minus among centers who average 25 or more minutes per game.


He's nine or ten years older than Drummond. Gortat backed up (and daily practiced against) prime, pre-injury Dwight Howard.

Nate33, the things you mentioned are what Gortat knows well.

I don't blame Gortat for having a chip about not playing in the fourth.

I hate to denigrate a good player and great teammate, but Kris Humphries had a real bad real plus/minus.

On the same list Gortat ranks fifth, wonder if the guy ranked first on that list wouldn't mind being a Wizard?

(I like Gortat, but wouldn't mind Nene and Webster and a heap of picks for DMC, next season)
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Re: Marcin Gortat Polish Hammer appreciation thread. 

Post#560 » by hands11 » Thu May 14, 2015 4:13 am

Keep your head up Marcin.

We know it doesn't make sense brother.

Just keep bringing it. The roster will get cleaned up and you will get your rightful shine with Wall, Beal and Otto.

Just hang in there.

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