MJ VS LEBRON VS WHOEVER THREAD

[freethedevil]

There isn't one thing Jordan does better than Lebron

He has more off-ball gravity, is a better man defender and is a much better mid-range scorer which was the three point hsot of his era. He also turns the ball over significatly less.

[70sFan]

Lol so basically what you’re saying is just based on your logic of center is more defensive impactful
Instead of providing any proves or stats to back it up, you just make a statement of a 9 time Defensive 1st team guard is WAY MORE worse defensively than a 1 time Defensive 1st Team center & another 0 time defensive 1st team center based on that logic
Then you went on asking other to provide reason to prove you’re wrong while you unable to provide anything, got it

btw Jordan career DBPM 1.2
Hayes career DBPM 1.0
but i’m sure this is also a meaningless stats because Hayes is a CENTER

It's common knowledge that interior defenders are far more impactful than guys on perimeter. It's not my logic, it's a common knowledge. Perimeter player can't anchor defense, it's easy to understand why - layups are the most efficient shots in basketball and center is in ideal position to contest thesr shots. Center is also in perfect position to observe plays, help his teammates and navigate them. All you need to do is play one basketball game and you'll know that.

Tell me why the most inpactful defenders by various impact metrics are all bigs if I'm wrong?

DBPM doesn't rank defense, it's just a differential between BPM and OBPM. Besides, BPM is just a combination of boxscore stats and you can't judge player's defensive impact based on boxscore stats. You need to look at impact stats like DRPM, DRAPM and others. You also have to watch games of course. How many Hayes games have you seen?

So instead of providing any facts to back up your argument , you went on to dispute whatever stats other provided and now said it's about eye test lol
Such a lame excuse trying to say that because defensive metric mostly dominate by bigs, so some random bigs that not even on the list are WAY BETTER than the ELITE defensive guard , yeah that's your statement WAY BETTER , NOT EVEN CLOSE
Anyway , i guess people always only believe what they believe no matter they're wrong or not.
Keep believe what you believing, nothing wrong with that , just don't come out with these "Not Even Close" bs if you can't prove anything

I dispute DBPM because it doesn't rate defense, do you even know how is it calculated?
What other stats did you bring here? All-defensive team selections or DPOTY? These are not stats, awards can be very misleading.
Show me impact stats that shows Jordan is one of the best defenders ever, I'm waiting. You won't because they don't exist. Because defensive impact metrics are dominated by bigs, because they are more impactful defenders than guards.

I didn't say a word about random bigs, I am talking about top 20 defensive bigs ever. It's not my fault that Elvin Hayes and Dave Cowens are random to you, try to educate yourself next time

You know how amazing Jordan was as a DPOY? Bulls were very strong -2.5 rDRtg in 1988 - quite impressive. Then they lost Oakley next season and despite Grant and Pippen improvement, they fell down to -0.1 rDRtg. Jordan played same amount of time and games in both seasons. So is it because Jordan had one magical ATG defensive season, or because Charles Oakley was more impactful defender than him?

Jordan was rarely even the best defender on his team. Scottie Pippen was more impactful defensively and in first three peat they had Horace Grant - another better defender than Jordan. In 1996-98 they aquired Rodman, who was at least comparable to Jordan in terms of defense (likely better too).

Your last paragraph is the only thing I agree with you. You can believe in anything you want to, it doesn't make you right

[70sFan]

Lol so basically what you’re saying is just based on your logic of center is more defensive impactful
Instead of providing any proves or stats to back it up, you just make a statement of a 9 time Defensive 1st team guard is WAY MORE worse defensively than a 1 time Defensive 1st Team center & another 0 time defensive 1st team center based on that logic
Then you went on asking other to provide reason to prove you’re wrong while you unable to provide anything, got it

btw Jordan career DBPM 1.2
Hayes career DBPM 1.0
but i’m sure this is also a meaningless stats because Hayes is a CENTER

It's common knowledge that interior defenders are far more impactful than guys on perimeter.n?

Well, generally, yes. Obviously, it still goes case by case.

"DBPM" a trash stat, but I wouldn't just auto-assume, center> perimiter player, esepcially if there's conflicting data.

Sure, but would you have Jordan as top 20 defender ever? Would you take him over Elvin Hayes who gave you full decade of strong rim protection, defensive rebounding and good mobility? Or Dave Cowens who could guard anyone on perimter, was outstanding on P&R and one of the best post defenders in the league?

[chitownsalesmen]

according to Bulls fans, Lauri Markkanen.

[trueballer7]

One major strike against MJ that isn't brought up with the constant "Lebron played with superteam" argument is Jordan's team won 55 games without him. Lebron's supposed super team missed the playoffs without him in 2015. It is a myth those Heat teams were a better supporting cast than what MJ had.

Yeah yeah its a myth alright, Steve Kerr "So the second year, we sign Harper and he didnt fit in at all. He was struggling. We still had BJ and Pete Myers. We won fifty five-fifty seven games, or whatever it was. We played the triangle extremely well. Kukoc was great. We sort of all fit into our roles. I think there was a lot of leftover magic from Michaels' presence. Even though he wasnt playing for us, there was still an aura about the team. And Scottie had an amazing year. But the second year, that wore off. And the lack of talent started to come through".
Enter a 33 year old MJ. Three peat

[freethedevil]

It's common knowledge that interior defenders are far more impactful than guys on perimeter.n?

Well, generally, yes. Obviously, it still goes case by case.

"DBPM" a trash stat, but I wouldn't just auto-assume, center> perimiter player, esepcially if there's conflicting data.

Sure, but would you have Jordan as top 20 defender ever?

Hell no, but I seriously doubt I'd have hayes or cowens their either. Off the top of my head, from jordan's era alone, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer hakeem, robinson, eaton, ewing, and oakley as bigs. On the perimiter I'd probably only clearly prefer pippen over jordan with the rest kind of a wash.

Would you take him over Elvin Hayes who gave you full decade of strong rim protection, defensive rebounding and good mobility?

Okay, but Jordan wasn't a non-factor at the rim. He protected the rim a little bit less than oakley in his dpoy season and was probably the better perimiter player. Also, defensive rebounding isn't really that value from an induvidual standpoint. Remember, replacement level players usually win defensive rebounds. Offensive rebounding is far more valuable.

Or Dave Cowens who could guard anyone on perimter, was outstanding on P&R and one of the best post defenders in the league?

Post defense is prolly the least valuable aspect of defense outside of defensive rebounding. pnr/point of attack defense is nice/play switching is nice, but i think Jordan's pass lane jumping and man d paired with some rim protection doesn't make him being a better defender unthinkable. It's probably worth at least looking at the overall impact data.

There's also some value to be said for scarcity here.A +1 defender at the perimiter was prolly is harder to find than a +1 defender at center, and generally you can't use centers in all the same ways you can use a periiter player

[ckman]

It's common knowledge that interior defenders are far more impactful than guys on perimeter. It's not my logic, it's a common knowledge. Perimeter player can't anchor defense, it's easy to understand why - layups are the most efficient shots in basketball and center is in ideal position to contest thesr shots. Center is also in perfect position to observe plays, help his teammates and navigate them. All you need to do is play one basketball game and you'll know that.

Tell me why the most inpactful defenders by various impact metrics are all bigs if I'm wrong?

DBPM doesn't rank defense, it's just a differential between BPM and OBPM. Besides, BPM is just a combination of boxscore stats and you can't judge player's defensive impact based on boxscore stats. You need to look at impact stats like DRPM, DRAPM and others. You also have to watch games of course. How many Hayes games have you seen?

So instead of providing any facts to back up your argument , you went on to dispute whatever stats other provided and now said it's about eye test lol
Such a lame excuse trying to say that because defensive metric mostly dominate by bigs, so some random bigs that not even on the list are WAY BETTER than the ELITE defensive guard , yeah that's your statement WAY BETTER , NOT EVEN CLOSE
Anyway , i guess people always only believe what they believe no matter they're wrong or not.
Keep believe what you believing, nothing wrong with that , just don't come out with these "Not Even Close" bs if you can't prove anything

I dispute DBPM because it doesn't rate defense, do you even know how is it calculated?
What other stats did you bring here? All-defensive team selections or DPOTY? These are not stats, awards can be very misleading.
Show me impact stats that shows Jordan is one of the best defenders ever, I'm waiting. You won't because they don't exist. Because defensive impact metrics are dominated by bigs, because they are more impactful defenders than guards.

I didn't say a word about random bigs, I am talking about top 20 defensive bigs ever. It's not my fault that Elvin Hayes and Dave Cowens are random to you, try to educate yourself next time

You know how amazing Jordan was as a DPOY? Bulls were very strong -2.5 rDRtg in 1988 - quite impressive. Then they lost Oakley next season and despite Grant and Pippen improvement, they fell down to -0.1 rDRtg. Jordan played same amount of time and games in both seasons. So is it because Jordan had one magical ATG defensive season, or because Charles Oakley was more impactful defender than him?

Jordan was rarely even the best defender on his team. Scottie Pippen was more impactful defensively and in first three peat they had Horace Grant - another better defender than Jordan. In 1996-98 they aquired Rodman, who was at least comparable to Jordan in terms of defense (likely better too).

Your last paragraph is the only thing I agree with you. You can believe in anything you want to, it doesn't make you right

Really? So now it's about Jordan teammates , or how his teammates boosted his defense rating instead of proving the player who you claimed was way better like Hayes are actually better ?
Guess what who Hayes play along side in Washington ? Wes Unseld
Also yeah Unseld destroyed Hayes literally in every defensive metric but of course you would conveniently leave out that since it didn't suit your agenda and accuse other of less educated ...

[trueballer7]

I can say that you simply weren't around to see older players than Jordan... how weak is this argument now?
Plenty of people had Kareem, Russell, Wilt or Bird over Jordan when he played.

"Plenty of people" is very subjective. I'm sure some people had them over Jordan just like some people have Kobe as GOAT, even though I think that's a ridiculous notion.

But, there's no denying that the general consensus back then was that Jordan was the GOAT and this was actually early in his career. Even after being proclaimed the GOAT, he went on to win even more championships.

And it really comes down to the fact that he's pretty untouchable...regarding almost every aspect of the game. You could take every criteria that makes someone great and Jordan is either at the top or undeniably the best. Almost any other potential GOAT, you could find some pretty glaring negatives to hold them back. Wilt/Lebron lost more than they won. Russell didn't score enough. Kareem wasn't the best player on some championship runs. Hakeem only won because Jordan retired. But Jordan doesn't have any...other than people that troll with 1-9 or that he wasn't a great 3 point shooter...as if that wasn't a part of the game like it is now. But even then, Jordan STILL set a Finals 3 point record of 6 in the first half...as if to say "just in case...let me do this one, too".

Are we talking about the best player ever or the best scorer? Or player with most rings as the best player?


I can name plenty of aspects of game that Jordan never approached the best level.

Jordan is mediocre playmaker compared to Magic or James.
Jordan is not close to top 20 defensive player ever, his defense is not even close to Russell's.
Jordan has weak longevity compared to other GOAT candidates.
Jordan won only in one system with Jackson and Pippen, he never proved that he was multidimensional like James, Wilt or Kareem.
Jordan was prick as a teammate, unlike Russell or Duncan.
Jordan retired three times during his career, which makes him less impactful overall.
Jordan is below average rebounder compared to other GOAT candidates.
Jordan is not close to Russell in terms of rings and rings as the best player.
Jordan is not close to the leading NBA scorer - Kareem.

I can name more of these silly arguments, but the reality is that Jordan is not untouchable and all these weaknesses others have you mentioned are not important. Who cares that Russell didn't score a lot, he definitely scored enough when he won 11 rings.

Russell is perfect test for MJ fans because he has similar longevity, won more, was overall more impactful, was better teammate and had better intangibles - that's supposed to be MJ arguments. MJ fans decide then talking about "ppg" or "weak era".

MJs main arguments lie in the abundance of film footage available. And thats why his place as the undisputed goat is forever safe. His achievements and resume follow naturally. Of course the best player ever, would be as succesful. Pretending that what Jordan did on the court, could be matched by anyone else, is just that. Pretending.

[freethedevil]

Because unlike Wilt they don't provide stupid statistical outlier seasons. That's why. They didn't lead the league in scoring, FG%, minutes, hadn't crazy TRB% like Wilt... Should I carry on?

Im' confused, are we comparing overall players, or "goat volume scoring" "goat minuites", and "goat trb%"?

Why the **** should anyone care about "stastical outlier seasons" if none of those seasons are an actual outlier as an overall package?

All right if you think Wilt isn't an outlier.

Reread my post.

Being an outlier at one thing at a time does not make you an outlier in terms of overall value. Wilt never did all these "outlier things" simulteously so it's wierd to try and use them to paint him as more worthy of goat discussion than do it alls like duncan and kg

[freethedevil]

"Plenty of people" is very subjective. I'm sure some people had them over Jordan just like some people have Kobe as GOAT, even though I think that's a ridiculous notion.

But, there's no denying that the general consensus back then was that Jordan was the GOAT and this was actually early in his career. Even after being proclaimed the GOAT, he went on to win even more championships.

And it really comes down to the fact that he's pretty untouchable...regarding almost every aspect of the game. You could take every criteria that makes someone great and Jordan is either at the top or undeniably the best. Almost any other potential GOAT, you could find some pretty glaring negatives to hold them back. Wilt/Lebron lost more than they won. Russell didn't score enough. Kareem wasn't the best player on some championship runs. Hakeem only won because Jordan retired. But Jordan doesn't have any...other than people that troll with 1-9 or that he wasn't a great 3 point shooter...as if that wasn't a part of the game like it is now. But even then, Jordan STILL set a Finals 3 point record of 6 in the first half...as if to say "just in case...let me do this one, too".

Are we talking about the best player ever or the best scorer? Or player with most rings as the best player?


I can name plenty of aspects of game that Jordan never approached the best level.

Jordan is mediocre playmaker compared to Magic or James.
Jordan is not close to top 20 defensive player ever, his defense is not even close to Russell's.
Jordan has weak longevity compared to other GOAT candidates.
Jordan won only in one system with Jackson and Pippen, he never proved that he was multidimensional like James, Wilt or Kareem.
Jordan was prick as a teammate, unlike Russell or Duncan.
Jordan retired three times during his career, which makes him less impactful overall.
Jordan is below average rebounder compared to other GOAT candidates.
Jordan is not close to Russell in terms of rings and rings as the best player.
Jordan is not close to the leading NBA scorer - Kareem.

I can name more of these silly arguments, but the reality is that Jordan is not untouchable and all these weaknesses others have you mentioned are not important. Who cares that Russell didn't score a lot, he definitely scored enough when he won 11 rings.

Russell is perfect test for MJ fans because he has similar longevity, won more, was overall more impactful, was better teammate and had better intangibles - that's supposed to be MJ arguments. MJ fans decide then talking about "ppg" or "weak era".

MJs main arguments lie in the abundance of film footage available.

If you can't break down that film footage and analyse it in a comparison then I'm not sure why you expect people to care. Well based conclusions don't' come from taking random smatterings of anecdota evidence and then arbitrarly weighing them against no one.

If you cannot make the argument, then you cannot really claim the argument there is stronger than the arguments that lie in any other player's footage.

[OdomFan]

Jordan was a better free throw shooter by a significant margin. That’s his one clear edge.

Jordan also listened to his coaches better.

Not really. He was beefing with phil until the end of 1989 the same way jordan beefed with spo. Post-spo the coaches were terrible lockeroom presences or tactically inept.

Yes really. The adjustment wasn't easy but he eventually came around to Phils triangle system and the it benefited him and the team in the long run. Lebron on the other hand could never be coached. I wont accuse him of demanding the coaches to be fired, but many came and left from teams he led. Thankfully he never went to the Spurs.

[70sFan]

Well, generally, yes. Obviously, it still goes case by case.

"DBPM" a trash stat, but I wouldn't just auto-assume, center> perimiter player, esepcially if there's conflicting data.

Sure, but would you have Jordan as top 20 defender ever?

Hell no, but I seriously doubt I'd have hayes or cowens their either. Off the top of my head, from jordan's era alone, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer hakeem, robinson, eaton, ewing, and oakley as bigs. On the perimiter I'd probably only clearly prefer pippen over jordan with the rest kind of a wash.

Would you take him over Elvin Hayes who gave you full decade of strong rim protection, defensive rebounding and good mobility?

Okay, but Jordan wasn't a non-factor at the rim. He protected the rim a little bit less than oakley in his dpoy season and was probably the better perimiter player. Also, defensive rebounding isn't really that value from an induvidual standpoint. Remember, replacement level players usually win defensive rebounds. Offensive rebounding is far more valuable.

Or Dave Cowens who could guard anyone on perimter, was outstanding on P&R and one of the best post defenders in the league?

Post defense is prolly the least valuable aspect of defense outside of defensive rebounding. pnr/point of attack defense is nice/play switching is nice, but i think Jordan's pass lane jumping and man d paired with some rim protection doesn't make him being a better defender unthinkable. It's probably worth at least looking at the overall impact data.

There's also some value to be said for scarcity here.A +1 defender at the perimiter was prolly is harder to find than a +1 defender at center, and generally you can't use centers in all the same ways you can use a periiter player

Who would you have in top 20 then?

Sure, Jordan wasn't non-factor at the rim but he wasn't close to Hayes in that aspect. Big E gives you over 2 blocks per game in over decade and sure, blocks are not everything but he also anchored some really good defenses in Rockets (with terrible supporting cast) and he co-anchored ATG defensive teams in Bullets along with Unseld. What makes you doubt in Hayes? He's definitely better defender than Oakley for example.

Again, what makes you doubt in Cowens defensive ability? He's perfect modern defensive big thrown into 1970s. He could stay in front of guards and defend P&Rs as well as any bigman. It's much more important than passing lanes defense. Cowens also was very good at creating turnovers, he averaged over 1 spg for his prime (probably more but we don't have stats from first seasons). Post defense is only a nice bonus, that's not his main strength. Not to mention that after dark times for Boston (post-Russell retirement) he anchored some really strong defensive teams in mid-70s.

Again - what Jordan actually did to put him next to Cowens and Hayes? And who would you have over Cowens and Hayes on your all-time defensive list?

[70sFan]

So instead of providing any facts to back up your argument , you went on to dispute whatever stats other provided and now said it's about eye test lol
Such a lame excuse trying to say that because defensive metric mostly dominate by bigs, so some random bigs that not even on the list are WAY BETTER than the ELITE defensive guard , yeah that's your statement WAY BETTER , NOT EVEN CLOSE
Anyway , i guess people always only believe what they believe no matter they're wrong or not.
Keep believe what you believing, nothing wrong with that , just don't come out with these "Not Even Close" bs if you can't prove anything

I dispute DBPM because it doesn't rate defense, do you even know how is it calculated?
What other stats did you bring here? All-defensive team selections or DPOTY? These are not stats, awards can be very misleading.
Show me impact stats that shows Jordan is one of the best defenders ever, I'm waiting. You won't because they don't exist. Because defensive impact metrics are dominated by bigs, because they are more impactful defenders than guards.

I didn't say a word about random bigs, I am talking about top 20 defensive bigs ever. It's not my fault that Elvin Hayes and Dave Cowens are random to you, try to educate yourself next time

You know how amazing Jordan was as a DPOY? Bulls were very strong -2.5 rDRtg in 1988 - quite impressive. Then they lost Oakley next season and despite Grant and Pippen improvement, they fell down to -0.1 rDRtg. Jordan played same amount of time and games in both seasons. So is it because Jordan had one magical ATG defensive season, or because Charles Oakley was more impactful defender than him?

Jordan was rarely even the best defender on his team. Scottie Pippen was more impactful defensively and in first three peat they had Horace Grant - another better defender than Jordan. In 1996-98 they aquired Rodman, who was at least comparable to Jordan in terms of defense (likely better too).

Your last paragraph is the only thing I agree with you. You can believe in anything you want to, it doesn't make you right

Really? So now it's about Jordan teammates , or how his teammates boosted his defense rating instead of proving the player who you claimed was way better like Hayes are actually better ?
Guess what who Hayes play along side in Washington ? Wes Unseld
Also yeah Unseld destroyed Hayes literally in every defensive metric but of course you would conveniently leave out that since it didn't suit your agenda and accuse other of less educated ...

Hayes anchored good defensive teams without Unseld in San Diego, even though his teammates sucked.
Also, show me these defensive metrics that show that Unseld destroys Hayes on defense.

[ckman]

I dispute DBPM because it doesn't rate defense, do you even know how is it calculated?
What other stats did you bring here? All-defensive team selections or DPOTY? These are not stats, awards can be very misleading.
Show me impact stats that shows Jordan is one of the best defenders ever, I'm waiting. You won't because they don't exist. Because defensive impact metrics are dominated by bigs, because they are more impactful defenders than guards.

I didn't say a word about random bigs, I am talking about top 20 defensive bigs ever. It's not my fault that Elvin Hayes and Dave Cowens are random to you, try to educate yourself next time

You know how amazing Jordan was as a DPOY? Bulls were very strong -2.5 rDRtg in 1988 - quite impressive. Then they lost Oakley next season and despite Grant and Pippen improvement, they fell down to -0.1 rDRtg. Jordan played same amount of time and games in both seasons. So is it because Jordan had one magical ATG defensive season, or because Charles Oakley was more impactful defender than him?

Jordan was rarely even the best defender on his team. Scottie Pippen was more impactful defensively and in first three peat they had Horace Grant - another better defender than Jordan. In 1996-98 they aquired Rodman, who was at least comparable to Jordan in terms of defense (likely better too).

Your last paragraph is the only thing I agree with you. You can believe in anything you want to, it doesn't make you right

Really? So now it's about Jordan teammates , or how his teammates boosted his defense rating instead of proving the player who you claimed was way better like Hayes are actually better ?
Guess what who Hayes play along side in Washington ? Wes Unseld
Also yeah Unseld destroyed Hayes literally in every defensive metric but of course you would conveniently leave out that since it didn't suit your agenda and accuse other of less educated ...

Hayes anchored good defensive teams without Unseld in San Diego, even though his teammates sucked.
Also, show me these defensive metrics that show that Unseld destroys Hayes on defense.

Try educate yourself

[70sFan]

Im' confused, are we comparing overall players, or "goat volume scoring" "goat minuites", and "goat trb%"?

Why the **** should anyone care about "stastical outlier seasons" if none of those seasons are an actual outlier as an overall package?

All right if you think Wilt isn't an outlier.

Reread my post.

Being an outlier at one thing at a time does not make you an outlier in terms of overall value. Wilt never did all these "outlier things" simulteously so it's wierd to try and use them to paint him as more worthy of goat discussion than do it alls like duncan and kg

I mean, I won't act like I have Wilt as my GOAT, but he always was outlier rebounder - when he scored, when he passed, when he defended.

I'd also say that in his 1964 season he was as close to most rounded role as possible -he was still ATG-level scorer, amazing passing bigman, GOAT-level rebounder and top 10 ever level defender.

[70sFan]

Really? So now it's about Jordan teammates , or how his teammates boosted his defense rating instead of proving the player who you claimed was way better like Hayes are actually better ?
Guess what who Hayes play along side in Washington ? Wes Unseld
Also yeah Unseld destroyed Hayes literally in every defensive metric but of course you would conveniently leave out that since it didn't suit your agenda and accuse other of less educated ...

Hayes anchored good defensive teams without Unseld in San Diego, even though his teammates sucked.
Also, show me these defensive metrics that show that Unseld destroys Hayes on defense.

Try educate yourself

So you don't have them? I thought so

Again, didn't answer - how many Hayes games have you seen that you call him"random bigman"?

[freethedevil]

Jordan also listened to his coaches better.

Not really. He was beefing with phil until the end of 1989 the same way jordan beefed with spo. Post-spo the coaches were terrible lockeroom presences or tactically inept.

Yes really. The adjustment wasn't easy but he eventually came around to Phils triangle system

You mean like how lebron came around to spo using him off-the ball?

Literally identical record's here. One season of beef, and then for the rest of their days, good little soilders under atg level coaches. You're really stretching here. Also, Lebron was a good liittle soilder trhoughout the vast majority of his early cleveland days under signifcantly less than atg coaching.

The only time jordan had lebron's post heat-level coaching was his wizard days. And he was back to being a petulant ball-hog, just like 2015 Lebron. Unlike jordan, Lebron embraced an off-ball role again under offensive maestro luke walton, and really isn't beefing at all with vogel. Jordan really isn't demonstrably better at listening to coaches than lebron.

[trueballer7]

Are we talking about the best player ever or the best scorer? Or player with most rings as the best player?


I can name plenty of aspects of game that Jordan never approached the best level.

Jordan is mediocre playmaker compared to Magic or James.
Jordan is not close to top 20 defensive player ever, his defense is not even close to Russell's.
Jordan has weak longevity compared to other GOAT candidates.
Jordan won only in one system with Jackson and Pippen, he never proved that he was multidimensional like James, Wilt or Kareem.
Jordan was prick as a teammate, unlike Russell or Duncan.
Jordan retired three times during his career, which makes him less impactful overall.
Jordan is below average rebounder compared to other GOAT candidates.
Jordan is not close to Russell in terms of rings and rings as the best player.
Jordan is not close to the leading NBA scorer - Kareem.

I can name more of these silly arguments, but the reality is that Jordan is not untouchable and all these weaknesses others have you mentioned are not important. Who cares that Russell didn't score a lot, he definitely scored enough when he won 11 rings.

Russell is perfect test for MJ fans because he has similar longevity, won more, was overall more impactful, was better teammate and had better intangibles - that's supposed to be MJ arguments. MJ fans decide then talking about "ppg" or "weak era".

MJs main arguments lie in the abundance of film footage available.

If you can't break down that film footage and analyse it in a comparison then I'm not sure why you expect people to care. Well based conclusions don't' come from taking random smatterings of anecdota evidence and then arbitrarly weighing them against no one.

If you cannot make the argument, then you cannot really claim the argument there is stronger than the arguments that lie in any other player's footage.

Let me break down for you, FOR AS LONG AS VIDEO FOOTAGE FROM MJ EXISTS, all the revisionist, manufactured arguments in the world will not matter. People that havent seen MJ, will be reading the lies and innacurracies, will then watch the games and discover what reality is. Which is, whats already happening anyway. The mans' game destroys all propaganda

[70sFan]

"Plenty of people" is very subjective. I'm sure some people had them over Jordan just like some people have Kobe as GOAT, even though I think that's a ridiculous notion.

But, there's no denying that the general consensus back then was that Jordan was the GOAT and this was actually early in his career. Even after being proclaimed the GOAT, he went on to win even more championships.

And it really comes down to the fact that he's pretty untouchable...regarding almost every aspect of the game. You could take every criteria that makes someone great and Jordan is either at the top or undeniably the best. Almost any other potential GOAT, you could find some pretty glaring negatives to hold them back. Wilt/Lebron lost more than they won. Russell didn't score enough. Kareem wasn't the best player on some championship runs. Hakeem only won because Jordan retired. But Jordan doesn't have any...other than people that troll with 1-9 or that he wasn't a great 3 point shooter...as if that wasn't a part of the game like it is now. But even then, Jordan STILL set a Finals 3 point record of 6 in the first half...as if to say "just in case...let me do this one, too".

Are we talking about the best player ever or the best scorer? Or player with most rings as the best player?


I can name plenty of aspects of game that Jordan never approached the best level.

Jordan is mediocre playmaker compared to Magic or James.
Jordan is not close to top 20 defensive player ever, his defense is not even close to Russell's.
Jordan has weak longevity compared to other GOAT candidates.
Jordan won only in one system with Jackson and Pippen, he never proved that he was multidimensional like James, Wilt or Kareem.
Jordan was prick as a teammate, unlike Russell or Duncan.
Jordan retired three times during his career, which makes him less impactful overall.
Jordan is below average rebounder compared to other GOAT candidates.
Jordan is not close to Russell in terms of rings and rings as the best player.
Jordan is not close to the leading NBA scorer - Kareem.

I can name more of these silly arguments, but the reality is that Jordan is not untouchable and all these weaknesses others have you mentioned are not important. Who cares that Russell didn't score a lot, he definitely scored enough when he won 11 rings.

Russell is perfect test for MJ fans because he has similar longevity, won more, was overall more impactful, was better teammate and had better intangibles - that's supposed to be MJ arguments. MJ fans decide then talking about "ppg" or "weak era".

MJs main arguments lie in the abundance of film footage available. And thats why his place as the undisputed goat is forever safe. His achievements and resume follow naturally. Of course the best player ever, would be as succesful. Pretending that what Jordan did on the court, could be matched by anyone else, is just that. Pretending.

So MJ main arguments are that we don't have enough footage of prime Russell, Wilt and Kareem?

[OdomFan]

Not really. He was beefing with phil until the end of 1989 the same way jordan beefed with spo. Post-spo the coaches were terrible lockeroom presences or tactically inept.

Yes really. The adjustment wasn't easy but he eventually came around to Phils triangle system

You mean like how lebron came around to spo using him off-the ball?

Literally identical record's here. One season of beef, and then for the rest of their days, good little soilders under atg level coaches. You're really stretching here. Also, Lebron was a good liittle soilder trhoughout the vast majority of his early cleveland days under signifcantly less than atg coaching.

The only time jordan had lebron's post heat-level coaching was his wizard days. And he was back to being a petulant ball-hog, just like 2015 Lebron. Unlike jordan, Lebron embraced an off-ball role again under offensive maestro luke walton, and really isn't beefing at all with vogel. Jordan really isn't demonstrably better at listening to coaches than lebron.

If Lebron played a good little solider at all as you put it for whatever reason, that would be due to Spo's system gearing towards most of the offense being centered around Lebron anyway. The Triangle was far better and more team orientated. Turned Pippen into a Hall of Famer, and helped Rodman turn his career around within it with his roles among the rest.

I guarantee you if the roles were reversed Lebron and Phil would clash because he just isn't that type of player to want to do anything other than carry the full load of the offense. Same if he played for Pop, Riley, or any other great coach throughout NBA history. MJ was a far better leader who listened when he needed to to turn those Bulls into the winner they became.