Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

[DuckIII]

In many professions, mine included, we are not only encouraged to report misconduct of our peers, we are ethically required to report it and if it is discovered we did not report it, we are subject to penalties ourselves. Professions like law enforcement should be expected to MORE strictly police themselves. But they do the exact opposite and to the extreme. How’s that for trying something different?

I agree with the problem you stated. Do you think that this is effective in your line of occupation? Whistleblowing in general doesn't seem to be effective. I think if you work within the same organization as someone else, it's extremely difficult to whistleblow and that this general mentality always exists.

Not saying it is right, but I do think it's extremely difficult to change that culture. For the past 15 years or so I've been an IT manager. I once had an employee that would sleep under his desk after I left the office everyday. I left at 3pm because I was on an early shift and he was 10-7. As it turns out, about half the office knew it, but no one would say anything, and I only found out after I filed him for lack of productivity. There are countless less egregious examples I can think of that people knew things that were going on but wouldn't say anything. Not snitching is just part of our culture in general.

1. Certain lines of work have ethical codes binding on those within it, that govern the entire profession and not just a workplace, that have written into them enforcement methods that go beyond being fired. They go to “you cannot do this job anymore anywhere for X years” or “you can never do this job again anywhere, ever.” And they include penalties - formal penalties impacting your ability to engage in the career activity - for those who do not snitch.

2. With police it’s not merely “not snitching.” It’s active, aggressive and proudly deliberate suppression of the truth and perpetrating fraud on the society that it is their job to protect and defend. It’s a deeply ingrained cultural element of being a police officer at all. The blue wall. If police, and the governmental bodies supervising police, eliminate this atmosphere of active deception which protects and emboldens wrongdoers, that is a huge step towards solving the problem not only in the ground in the streets, but as a matter of public perception. People don’t trust police to police themselves, because it is a proud element of the professional culture to either not do so, or to do so weakly and quietly.

If it’s really too much to ever expect law enforcement to legitimately desire to protect society from police misconduct (as opposed to protecting police from the consequences of police misconduct), then nothing will change barring escalation.

[musiqsoulchild]

after trump's "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" tweet, posted to facebook and echoing segregationists in the '60s, facebook employees walked off the job when zuckerberg refused to act on it. he had previously said that he would draw the line at posts calling for violence

What on gods earth did that statement have to do with segregationists in the 60s? The looters were white, black, brown, etc.

Didn’t the shooting start after the looting? People were shot and killed and police were shot at and killed. Some store owners were protecting their store with guns possibly shooting at looters if they were attacked. What was so bad about that statement?

LA Riots same thing...people started looting and plenty of shooting afterwards. Roof Koreans. Looters shooting back, etc. Zero cops were around for those riots during the prime moments.

I’m trying to figure out what was so wrong with that factual statement?

Shonuff, that's exactly the sentence used in the civil rights protests by Miami police chief.

That exact sentence.

It's a dog whistle.

[musiqsoulchild]

I 100% understand the desire by some people to have sort of independent, black staffed police departments in so called black neighborhoods.

I think it's a bad idea in the sense that the cons outweigh the pros. If anything, an effort should be made to have black officers as well distributed in so called black neighborhoods as resources will allow. That would achieve much of the same outcome IMO, without the inherent drawbacks and anti-American philosophy of group identity politics. I don't believe in identifying "communities" by perceived nominal dominant color of skin among the residents, regardless of how imprecisely accurate it may or may not be. If we go down that road we might as well give the whole **** thing up (society/civilization). Those who insist on grouping people vs treating them as individuals may call my neighborhood "white", ignoring the numerous, though of course minority, black resident count, the many many Hispanics, etc.

Doesnt even have to be black staffed.

It can be a 100 percent white.

But that units training needs to be different. From Day 1.

Dont take hardened cops and then give them community training. Take community participants and train them to police.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

You could replace white cops with black cops and it would make some difference but not enough. We’ve seen plenty of abuses from black cops in the last week. The problem isn’t racist individuals but the fact American policing supports white supremacy. We have to rethink the entire institution for there to be lasting change.

[dougthonus]

1. Certain lines of work have ethical codes binding on those within it, that govern the entire profession and not just a workplace, that have written into them enforcement methods that go beyond being fired. They go to “you cannot do this job anymore anywhere for X years” or “you can never do this job again anywhere, ever.” And they include penalties - formal penalties impacting your ability to engage in the career activity - for those who do not snitch.

My line of profession does as well. I work in finance, and if you are finra registered you not only face the potential of never working again but also are open up to legal and monetary penalties. Even with these things in place, people do not whistleblow as a general rule.

2. With police it’s not merely “not snitching.” It’s active, aggressive and proudly deliberate suppression of the truth and perpetrating fraud on the society that it is their job to protect and defend. It’s a deeply ingrained cultural element of being a police officer at all. The blue wall. If police, and the governmental bodies supervising police, eliminate this atmosphere of active deception which protects and emboldens wrongdoers, that is a huge step towards solving the problem not only in the ground in the streets, but as a matter of public perception. People don’t trust police to police themselves, because it is a proud element of the professional culture to either not do so, or to do so weakly and quietly.

If it’s really too much to ever expect law enforcement to legitimately desire to protect society from police misconduct (as opposed to protecting police from the consequences of police misconduct), then nothing will change barring escalation.

I agree with everything you said here (like I did the first time), but it just gets back to how you accomplish this. It would be great if you could. Historically, in similar situations I've seen this type of changes to be very difficult to make. You would likely need to replace a massive amount of the police to make this work.

[Michael Jackson]

The police and black relationship is definitely worse I can definitely agree to that. I think they both make each other lives a lot harder than it needs to be. I really think they should limit the police in black neighborhoods and only have it be black police officers in those areas. White cops in black neighborhoods has been a brutal marriage that's long overdue for a divorce. White police presence has never made a black neighborhood safer or more peaceful. Limiting presence and having it be black presence would probably go a further way and building some trust between the police and the community. It's worth a shot gotta try something different.

The downside of that is you are probably limiting police tension but increasing racial tension. Also where do you draw the line? Do only black judges / juries / prosecutors work on black cases going forward? Do you do that with companies and hiring? It may only be a small step, but you are moving towards creating a society of segregation and while that may help with this singular problem in the short term, it likely leads to vastly bigger problems in the long term.

White cops aren’t the problem. Racist white cops are. I think segregation of a police force does not help the problem, I do think that having a more diverse police force in those areas though is a huge benefit. I personally am very very anti segregation. Having a force though that is a higher ration African American in those communities though makes sense to me.

[League Circles]

I 100% understand the desire by some people to have sort of independent, black staffed police departments in so called black neighborhoods.

I think it's a bad idea in the sense that the cons outweigh the pros. If anything, an effort should be made to have black officers as well distributed in so called black neighborhoods as resources will allow. That would achieve much of the same outcome IMO, without the inherent drawbacks and anti-American philosophy of group identity politics. I don't believe in identifying "communities" by perceived nominal dominant color of skin among the residents, regardless of how imprecisely accurate it may or may not be. If we go down that road we might as well give the whole **** thing up (society/civilization). Those who insist on grouping people vs treating them as individuals may call my neighborhood "white", ignoring the numerous, though of course minority, black resident count, the many many Hispanics, etc.

Doesnt even have to be black staffed.

It can be a 100 percent white.

But that units training needs to be different. From Day 1.

Dont take hardened cops and then give them community training. Take community participants and train them to police.

I've seen a lot of people saying training needs to be different with no details. Easier said than done.

I think getting the right new recruits should be easier enough with the right money, but existing cops need to have new policies placed on them.

[Ccwatercraft]

[This is an interesting read.

https://epic.nola.gov/home/

Ethical policing is courageous.
Heard a reference to it on Bloomberg.

the officers on the streets to play a meaningful role in “policing” one another. EPIC is a peer intervention program that teaches officers how to intervene to stop a wrongful action before it occurs.

I honestly think its shameful that this is something special and not common with every police dept, addresses one of my biggest complaints of the loyalty/brotherhood/protection within the pd along with the inability to "pull rank"

[mack2354]

The police need to do better but I think a lot of people are being let off the hook during all this. Why is it that the 3 officers who stood by watching haven't been charged yet? That's on the DA. The DA's should be feeling just as much heat as the police.

When police officers get charged but don't get convicted that's on the judges/jury. The judges should be feeling just as much heat as the police. The police force alone isn't the only problem with the system here in America. There is a lot that needs to be fixed. I personally think the riots/looting is a bad look but if the financial and political backlash from this leads to positive changes to the system then I am for it.

[DuckIII]

[This is an interesting read.

https://epic.nola.gov/home/

Ethical policing is courageous.
Heard a reference to it on Bloomberg.

the officers on the streets to play a meaningful role in “policing” one another. EPIC is a peer intervention program that teaches officers how to intervene to stop a wrongful action before it occurs.

I honestly think its shameful that this is something special and not common with every police dept, addresses one of my biggest complaints of the loyalty/brotherhood/protection within the pd along with the inability to "pull rank"

That’s something. It’s not enough, but it works toward addressing the root issue. But ultimately the change has to be internally driven and embraced.

[Dominator83]

What on gods earth did that statement have to do with segregationists in the 60s? The looters were white, black, brown, etc.

Didn’t the shooting start after the looting? People were shot and killed and police were shot at and killed. Some store owners were protecting their store with guns possibly shooting at looters if they were attacked. What was so bad about that statement?

LA Riots same thing...people started looting and plenty of shooting afterwards. Roof Koreans. Looters shooting back, etc. Zero cops were around for those riots during the prime moments.

I’m trying to figure out what was so wrong with that factual statement?

Yea buddy. If I owned a small business right now, my ass would be camped out in my store, locked and loaded. Once my door or glass is broken and someone jumps in, they'd be in for a major surprise.

or buy some **** insurance

stuff like this really exposes the flaws in the market and the market-derived way of thinking of people like you: that 'things' are more important than people. and that you fantasize about killing people who take things. it's kind of sick actually.

this whole thread is a disaster -- the first couple posts are literally about sending the military to black neighborhoods in chicago and sending even more people to prison for longer. really disappointed in realgm f=10

Or just.......dont break into and try to destroy my business and nobody gets hurt. Pretty simple solution.

And these businesses that are forced to make insurance claims, you don't think their premiums will skyrocket after this?

And if someone breaks into and destroys your house in the next few days, have that same attitude bud. In fact, offer the looters help carrying your stuff out to their car. Show them they're important and society needs them

[Dresden]

The police and black relationship is definitely worse I can definitely agree to that. I think they both make each other lives a lot harder than it needs to be. I really think they should limit the police in black neighborhoods and only have it be black police officers in those areas. White cops in black neighborhoods has been a brutal marriage that's long overdue for a divorce. White police presence has never made a black neighborhood safer or more peaceful. Limiting presence and having it be black presence would probably go a further way and building some trust between the police and the community. It's worth a shot gotta try something different.

The downside of that is you are probably limiting police tension but increasing racial tension. Also where do you draw the line? Do only black judges / juries / prosecutors work on black cases going forward? Do you do that with companies and hiring? It may only be a small step, but you are moving towards creating a society of segregation and while that may help with this singular problem in the short term, it likely leads to vastly bigger problems in the long term.

White cops aren’t the problem. Racist white cops are. I think segregation of a police force does not help the problem, I do think that having a more diverse police force in those areas though is a huge benefit. I personally am very very anti segregation. Having a force though that is a higher ration African American in those communities though makes sense to me.

It sure does. I think as much as possible, you should strive to have the police match the ethnicity of the people they are policing. People naturally tend to feel more comfortable speaking to someone of a similar background, and trust them more. And if you have enough minorities on the police force, it is less likely that discrimination will take place.

And yes, the judiciary should also be diverse. It doesn't mean only a black judge should hear a case where the defendant is black, race does matter, as does class background. There are a lot of complaints now about the make up of the Supreme Court, where almost all of the justices attended either Harvard or Yale Law Schools. Not that those are great schools, but it might be a good idea to have other law schools (which each have their own legal philosophies), represented, too.

[Dresden]

Yea buddy. If I owned a small business right now, my ass would be camped out in my store, locked and loaded. Once my door or glass is broken and someone jumps in, they'd be in for a major surprise.

or buy some **** insurance

stuff like this really exposes the flaws in the market and the market-derived way of thinking of people like you: that 'things' are more important than people. and that you fantasize about killing people who take things. it's kind of sick actually.

this whole thread is a disaster -- the first couple posts are literally about sending the military to black neighborhoods in chicago and sending even more people to prison for longer. really disappointed in realgm f=10

Or just.......dont break into and try to destroy my business and nobody gets hurt. Pretty simple solution.

And these businesses that are forced to make insurance claims, you don't think their premiums will skyrocket after this?

There has to be a middle ground though, between just letting looters destroy your property, and your livelihood, and killing someone for breaking a piece of plate glass, or stealing a pair of tennis shoes. Stores that are boarding up their windows are smart. And yes, the police should be used to protect people's property from looting as much as possible. Or the national guard if that's what it takes. I have no problem with stopping the violence. But let's not make it into an armed confrontation, where you have something like the Chicago democratic convention in '68, where the cops just went nuts on people. If protestors are protesting peaceably, the cops should let them. If they start looting, then the cops have the right to move in and stop them. That doesn't mean killing them, though.

[League Circles]

I sure hope a lot of activists have submitted their applications to be police officers in the past few days. Seems like a no brainer step for a lot of people to take especially recent college grads without jobs.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

I sure hope a lot of activists have submitted their applications to be police officers in the past few days. Seems like a no brainer step for a lot of people to take especially recent college grads without jobs.

I can say with 100% certainty that is not happening right now.

[Dresden]

I heard there's some guy named Serpico that has re-applied. He's pretty old, but thinks he still has what it takes.

[League Circles]

I sure hope a lot of activists have submitted their applications to be police officers in the past few days. Seems like a no brainer step for a lot of people to take especially recent college grads without jobs.

I can say with 100% certainty that is not happening right now.

What a shame IMO. An opportunity to improve things first hand, and tremendous job security. If I was younger and debt free I would.

[musiqsoulchild]

The police need to do better but I think a lot of people are being let off the hook during all this. Why is it that the 3 officers who stood by watching haven't been charged yet? That's on the DA. The DA's should be feeling just as much heat as the police.

When police officers get charged but don't get convicted that's on the judges/jury. The judges should be feeling just as much heat as the police. The police force alone isn't the only problem with the system here in America. There is a lot that needs to be fixed. I personally think the riots/looting is a bad look but if the financial and political backlash from this leads to positive changes to the system then I am for it.

The DA was specifically the problem in the Ahmad case.

This is why I am a fan of systemic reform. And the first step in addressing that is to ACKNOWLEDGE it.

Let me show you a bizzaro Trump that could have EASILY won in 2020:

1) President Trump comes on television with Dr. Fauci and all the leaders of the business world. With a MASK on. And tells America " I am looking you straight in the eye. This disease will kill you. Wear a mask. Do not buy medical masks...those are for medical professionals. We will show you how to make effective face coverings. Together we will overcome this difficult time"

2) President Trump addresses the nation on the first night of the George Floyd protests. On either side is James Clyburn and Amy Klobuchar ( Minnesota)

" We hear your anger. Very often in the past, we havent. I will do all I can in my power to expedite criminal justice reform. I want you to protest. Not only because it's your constitutional right. But because we all need to mourn for George Floyd and countless others like him".

He would have won 2020 in a landslide.

[musiqsoulchild]

I sure hope a lot of activists have submitted their applications to be police officers in the past few days. Seems like a no brainer step for a lot of people to take especially recent college grads without jobs.

I can say with 100% certainty that is not happening right now.

What a shame IMO. An opportunity to improve things first hand, and tremendous job security. If I was younger and debt free I would.

League, you're thinking of this whole thing rationally. Kudos to you for that.

But the folks who are grieving now - whether they are white allies or people of color....the LAST thing they are going to do now is to join the justice system.

That will happen. In due time.

[dougthonus]

There has to be a middle ground though, between just letting looters destroy your property, and your livelihood, and killing someone for breaking a piece of plate glass, or stealing a pair of tennis shoes.

I'm not sure there really is. I don't own a gun or a store, but if I owned both and someone broke the glass of my store front then I'd possibly be firing bullets at them. Hard to know if not in the situation of course, and not being experience with either thing I can't say for sure what my response would be.

Of course I wouldn't want to kill someone over broken glass or tennis shoes, but I don't know what they will take or what their intentions are except that they're violent, illegal, and bad for me when I have to make such a decision.

If they start looting, then the cops have the right to move in and stop them. That doesn't mean killing them, though.

Definitely think you should attempt non violent force first as long as you aren't putting your own self at risk.