The 2016 Offseason Thread

[NavLDO]

I wouldn't say you've crossed the line, but I think you might be wasting your time. It's just someone's opinion and to proclaim anything either way after a rookie season is a bit premature. Personally I think he can be a great player in the league. I don't have much evidence other than watching him and his instincts at such a young age, the company he has put himself in scoring wise by that age, and what some of the best 2 guards have said about him (Kobe, Wade, Butler, etc) as well as much of the media.

Boy, are you right there...

I just take exception to opinions with no basis, and Pong's assertions were baseless; he has zero evidence to support what Booker's ceiling is after one season, and what our 3 Rookies and Williams ceiling with zero, or close to zero NBA experience. Booker may not even be the best sub-23 YO we have on the roster. We have no idea, and while everyone (well, other than Pong, and maybe Diddy) are excited about what we've seen, no one is making any career long assertions one way or the other on these guys...except, Pong, of course.

And sorry, but when a poster with all of 6 posts comes on the forum as a "Sun's fan," yet denigrates our entire roster, well, if that doesn't seem 'fishy' to you, it sure as heck does to a good number of the rest of us.

"Look at me! I'm a Sun's fan! Our roster sucks and is full of players that will never amount to anything but middling talent! Woo Hoo!! Go Suns!"

[bwgood77]

I wouldn't say you've crossed the line, but I think you might be wasting your time. It's just someone's opinion and to proclaim anything either way after a rookie season is a bit premature. Personally I think he can be a great player in the league. I don't have much evidence other than watching him and his instincts at such a young age, the company he has put himself in scoring wise by that age, and what some of the best 2 guards have said about him (Kobe, Wade, Butler, etc) as well as much of the media.

Boy, are you right there...

I just take exception to opinions with no basis, and Pong's assertions were baseless; he has zero evidence to support what Booker's ceiling is after one season, and what our 3 Rookies and Williams ceiling with zero, or close to zero NBA experience. Booker may not even be the best sub-23 YO we have on the roster. We have no idea, and while everyone (well, other than Pong, and maybe Diddy) are excited about what we've seen, no one is making any career long assertions one way or the other on these guys...except, Pong, of course.

And sorry, but when a poster with all of 6 posts comes on the forum as a "Sun's fan," yet denigrates our entire roster, well, if that doesn't seem 'fishy' to you, it sure as heck does to a good number of the rest of us.

"Look at me! I'm a Sun's fan! Our roster sucks and is full of players that will never amount to anything but middling talent! Woo Hoo!! Go Suns!"

It did seem a little bit fishy, so I reviewed previous posts. He appears to have been mostly a lurker, and I'm guessing he won't be posting much. There are others who say such things repeatedly. There are others who are not high on Bender. dantley4prez for one, but there were more. That's fine. I can see why some people could be less than enthused, but I am actually fairly happy that the large majority seem to be patient with him and see the positives at such a young age.

[saintEscaton]

I mean I'm trying to find the silver lining, but there is nothing on paper that seperates our core from the rest of the pack. I'd take Minny/Philly any day of the week due to top shelf talent and Denver is right up there cauz I think Jokic could be better than Porzingis. I would probably takes ours over the Laker's. Randle is Thomas Robinson 2.0, Nance is a nice rotation big, DLo may not cut it at point he is more of a Ginoblisque playmaking off guard but won't have his size advnatage there. Zubac was a steal he is only 19 and has a fully developed body and polished footwork, Ingram will have growing pains but already has NBA 3pt range, dynamic iso scorer and more burst off the bounce than advertised

[bwgood77]

I mean I'm trying to find the silver lining, but there is nothing on paper that seperates our core from the rest of the pack. I'd take Minny/Philly any day of the week due to top shelf talent and Denver is right up there cauz I think Jokic could be better than Porzingis. I would probably takes ours over the Laker's. Randle is Thomas Robinson 2.0, Nance is a nice rotation big, DLo may not cut it at point he is more of a Ginoblisque playmaking off guard but won't have his size advnatage there. Zubac was a steal he is only 19 and has a fully developed body and polished footwork, Ingram will have growing pains but already has NBA 3pt range, dynamic iso scorer and more burst off the bounce than advertised

Jokic was actually better than Towns and Noel this year defensively. I don't know if I'd consider any of Philly's players top shelf. Simmons probably is, Noel is strong defensively, and Okafor a nice post player, but they have little shooting. I like Saric though.

I think I value shooting more than you though.

Denver's rooks are impressive too. Long term too early to determine who will be better between us and Denver though. We have Booker, they have Jokic. Our rooks, other than Ulis have a bigger learning curve.

[lilfishi22]

Most know I'm not that deep into drafts until about a month or two prior so is the 2017 draft suppose to be super deep with elite talent or something?

[MrMiyagi]

Most know I'm not that deep into drafts until about a month or two prior so is the 2017 draft suppose to be super deep with elite talent or something?

It's supposed to, but don't be surprised when there is a new assessment once the NCAA games start.

[Zelaznyrules]

I mean I'm trying to find the silver lining, but there is nothing on paper that seperates our core from the rest of the pack. I'd take Minny/Philly any day of the week due to top shelf talent and Denver is right up there cauz I think Jokic could be better than Porzingis. I would probably takes ours over the Laker's. Randle is Thomas Robinson 2.0, Nance is a nice rotation big, DLo may not cut it at point he is more of a Ginoblisque playmaking off guard but won't have his size advnatage there. Zubac was a steal he is only 19 and has a fully developed body and polished footwork, Ingram will have growing pains but already has NBA 3pt range, dynamic iso scorer and more burst off the bounce than advertised

I honestly see no reason to take Philly's core over ours. Minnesota, on paper, has a clear advantage but we've seen nothing to suggest that Philly has an elite group of young players.

I think Noel is a solid role player but nothing more and that's without considering his knees. Okafor is in the wrong decade and IMO will never be a top 100 player in the NBA. Simmons has some special skills but the hole in his game is a huge one. If he fills that in he could be a Lebron level talent but if not, he'll always be a novelty but he'll never be elite. I can't say anything about Saric but who knows how he'll fit in here. I guess if you're convinced that Embiid is going to finally be fully healthy and Saric is going to be a top 20 player but otherwise, I like our roster much more than theirs.

But I agree there's nothing that necessarily separates our core from several other young teams, I just don't think Philly is one of those special teams. I'd have no problems if a Wolves, Bucks, Jazz, Blazers, Nuggets or even a Lakers fan came in here and proclaimed their youth group to be superior. I'd disagree with a few of them but that's what we fans tend to do. But I'd have to laugh if a Philly fan tried to do the same thing at least until Embiid, Saric and/or Simmons gives us all a reason to be impressed. As for as the league is concerned, those guys are still unpopped kernels, just like Chriss and Bender.

[Villalobos]

I'm not sold on Simmons at all. A 6'10'' big man Rondo who doesn't defend the rim doesn't do much for me. He'll put up some really nice stats on a god-awful Philly team with bad efficiency, but I don't know how that player wins you games until he finds a jumpshot. He's not an absurd physical specimen like LeBron who makes up for it by getting to the rim with ease. And unlike LeBron, the guys guarding him won't generally be smaller and weaker. Also, that Philly squad is horribly built for him with no shooting.

[letsgosuns]

I wonder if Ulis' showing in the Summer League will alter any of the organization's plans. He appears to be able to make an immediate contribution to the team. He is a pure point guard and I think can back up Bledsoe right now. The team does not need Booker, Bledsoe, Knight, Barbosa, Goodwin, Ulis, AND Jenkins. That is 7 players for two spots. Too many. Even Tucker can play shooting guard if the situation calls for it. Idk what the Suns will do but I definitely think they have to make a trade because having seven guards on the roster is unnecessary.

[lilfishi22]

I think his ceiling is Lamar Odom without the D. His passing at this position will be better suited in this era of basketball than those in the past but his lack of range is going to hurt him big time.

[Saberestar]

I wonder if Ulis' showing in the Summer League will alter any of the organization's plans. He appears to be able to make an immediate contribution to the team. He is a pure point guard and I think can back up Bledsoe right now. The team does not need Booker, Bledsoe, Knight, Barbosa, Goodwin, Ulis, AND Jenkins. That is 7 players for two spots. Too many. Even Tucker can play shooting guard if the situation calls for it. Idk what the Suns will do but I definitely think they have to make a trade because having seven guards on the roster is unnecessary.

Jenkins is on a non-guaranteed deal, without him six players for two spots is ok, the standard. 15 players on the roster, three for position. I don't expect Goodwin playing minutes and Booker is gonna spend some time at SF for sure, not logjam out there IMO.

[MrMiyagi]

Simmons needs to develop a jump shot, but he's going to be a damn fine NBA player - pencil him in to be a multiple time all star. He might never be a 20+ ppg guy, but I think he'll average a triple double at least once in his career.

All that said, Philly is still a mess. Okafor is Al Jefferson, Noel is a shot blocking, stealing Kenneth Faried, Embiid is the biggest question mark in the league. Saric looks like he's got a good stroke and is a good enough passer, but how do he and Simmons fit together defensively? Are either of them rim protectors?

I like their guys as individually, but I just don't see how they fit.

[dremill24]

Simmons needs to develop a jump shot, but he's going to be a damn fine NBA player - pencil him in to be a multiple time all star. He might never be a 20+ ppg guy, but I think he'll average a triple double at least once in his career.

All that said, Philly is still a mess. Okafor is Al Jefferson, Noel is a shot blocking, stealing Kenneth Faried, Embiid is the biggest question mark in the league. Saric looks like he's got a good stroke and is a good enough passer, but how do he and Simmons fit together defensively? Are either of them rim protectors?

I like their guys as individually, but I just don't see how they fit.

Uhhh what?

[saintEscaton]

Simmons needs to develop a jump shot, but he's going to be a damn fine NBA player - pencil him in to be a multiple time all star. He might never be a 20+ ppg guy, but I think he'll average a triple double at least once in his career.

All that said, Philly is still a mess. Okafor is Al Jefferson, Noel is a shot blocking, stealing Kenneth Faried, Embiid is the biggest question mark in the league. Saric looks like he's got a good stroke and is a good enough passer, but how do he and Simmons fit together defensively? Are either of them rim protectors?

I like their guys as individually, but I just don't see how they fit.

Uhhh what?

If anyone is averaging near a triple double besides Westbrook any time soon, its Greek Freak. Also the Big Al comparison is lazy, Jah has much better measurables, isn't a blackhole and doesn't shy away from contact, he had a near 60% True Shooting afer Ish Smith was acquired, as good as Big Al ever accomplished. And Faried is one of the worst defensive 4s in the league, the only similarity with Noel is they are both garbage men offensively

[bwgood77]

Simmons needs to develop a jump shot, but he's going to be a damn fine NBA player - pencil him in to be a multiple time all star. He might never be a 20+ ppg guy, but I think he'll average a triple double at least once in his career.

All that said, Philly is still a mess. Okafor is Al Jefferson, Noel is a shot blocking, stealing Kenneth Faried, Embiid is the biggest question mark in the league. Saric looks like he's got a good stroke and is a good enough passer, but how do he and Simmons fit together defensively? Are either of them rim protectors?

I like their guys as individually, but I just don't see how they fit.

Uhhh what?

If anyone is averaging near a triple double besides Westbrook any time soon, its Greek Freak. Also the Big Al comparison is lazy, Jah has much better measurables, isn't a blackhole and doesn't shy away from contact, he had a near 60% True Shooting afer Ish Smith was acquired, as good as Big Al ever accomplished. And Faried is one of the worst defensive 4s in the league, the only similarity with Noel is they are both garbage men offensively

Okafor should be pretty damn happy if he ends up with a career as good as Al Jefferson's. Who do you expect him to be?

[MrMiyagi]

Uhhh what?

If anyone is averaging near a triple double besides Westbrook any time soon, its Greek Freak. Also the Big Al comparison is lazy, Jah has much better measurables, isn't a blackhole and doesn't shy away from contact, he had a near 60% True Shooting afer Ish Smith was acquired, as good as Big Al ever accomplished. And Faried is one of the worst defensive 4s in the league, the only similarity with Noel is they are both garbage men offensively

Okafor should be pretty damn happy if he ends up with a career as good as Al Jefferson's. Who do you expect him to be?

Seriously, what does Jah do that Al Jefferson doesn't?

[MrMiyagi]

Simmons needs to develop a jump shot, but he's going to be a damn fine NBA player - pencil him in to be a multiple time all star. He might never be a 20+ ppg guy, but I think he'll average a triple double at least once in his career.

All that said, Philly is still a mess. Okafor is Al Jefferson, Noel is a shot blocking, stealing Kenneth Faried, Embiid is the biggest question mark in the league. Saric looks like he's got a good stroke and is a good enough passer, but how do he and Simmons fit together defensively? Are either of them rim protectors?

I like their guys as individually, but I just don't see how they fit.

Uhhh what?

Yup, I said it. How's that for a hot take?

[saintEscaton]

Uhhh what?

If anyone is averaging near a triple double besides Westbrook any time soon, its Greek Freak. Also the Big Al comparison is lazy, Jah has much better measurables, isn't a blackhole and doesn't shy away from contact, he had a near 60% True Shooting afer Ish Smith was acquired, as good as Big Al ever accomplished. And Faried is one of the worst defensive 4s in the league, the only similarity with Noel is they are both garbage men offensively

Okafor should be pretty damn happy if he ends up with a career as good as Al Jefferson's. Who do you expect him to be?

Big Al was pretty mediocre, he was below league average in TS% most , never surpassed a 110+ ORtg outside his short peak in Utah, a better defensive rebounder coming out and could hit turaround Js but was too finesse, often settling for shots outside of 10 feet. Big Al was the scapegoat most misinformed advocates of "small ball" use to eulogize the death of the post game when its really a lack of transcendent back to the backet bigs/emphasis in AAU that has changed the landscape. Jah was admittedly terrible by most APBR metrics, but he is a nearly automatic finisher inside the restricted area(almost 70% within 3 feet), might have even a softer touch around the cup between 3 and 10 feet(565 after Ish trade) and if he can get to the line at a solid rate he could be much better, plus his ability to pass out of a double team.He can also alter shots, although he is not a great rim protector he can body one on one. I see a Boogie Lite kind of player, Jah already outproduced him as a rookie. But hey some were saying Booker was Jodie Meeks 2.0 pre-draft
In the month of January
Jah
10.4 DefRtg, 48.4 DFG%, 13.2 DFGA, +0.6% Diff%. 6 feet. 55.3 DFG%, 6 DFGA, -6.0 Diff%.

KATs per 36 in that same time frame

21ppg, 11.7 boards, 1.6 blocks on 54% fg%

Defensive numbers

110.7 DefRtg, 48.9 DFG%, 13.6 DFGA, +1.6% Diff%. 6 feet, 58.6 DFG%, 7 DFGA, -2 Diff%.

Anyways no is denying his severe flaws, thats why Bender could eventually be the ideal frontcourt partner with his ability to stretch thefloor, come over for helspdie blocks, hedge/recover the screener against PnR

[bwgood77]

If anyone is averaging near a triple double besides Westbrook any time soon, its Greek Freak. Also the Big Al comparison is lazy, Jah has much better measurables, isn't a blackhole and doesn't shy away from contact, he had a near 60% True Shooting afer Ish Smith was acquired, as good as Big Al ever accomplished. And Faried is one of the worst defensive 4s in the league, the only similarity with Noel is they are both garbage men offensively

Okafor should be pretty damn happy if he ends up with a career as good as Al Jefferson's. Who do you expect him to be?

Big Al was pretty mediocre, he was below league average in TS% most , never surpassed a 110+ ORtg outside his short peak in Utah, a better defensive rebounder coming out and could hit turaround Js but was too finesse, often settling for shots outside of 10 feet. Big Al was the scapegoat most misinformed advocates of "small ball" use to eulogize the death of the post game when its really a lack of transcendent back to the backet bigs/emphasis in AAU that has changed the landscape. Jah was admittedly terrible by most APBR metrics, but he is a nearly automatic finisher inside the restricted area(almost 70% within 3 feet), might have even a softer touch around the cup between 3 and 10 feet(565 after Ish trade) and if he can get to the line at a solid rate he could be much better, plus his ability to pass out of a double team.He can also alter shots, although he is not a great rim protector he can body one on one. I see a Boogie Lite kind of player, Jah already outproduced him as a rookie. But hey some were saying Booker was Jodie Meeks 2.0 pre-draft
In the month of January
Jah
10.4 DefRtg, 48.4 DFG%, 13.2 DFGA, +0.6% Diff%. 6 feet. 55.3 DFG%, 6 DFGA, -6.0 Diff%.

KATs per 36 in that same time frame

21ppg, 11.7 boards, 1.6 blocks on 54% fg%

Defensive numbers

110.7 DefRtg, 48.9 DFG%, 13.6 DFGA, +1.6% Diff%. 6 feet, 58.6 DFG%, 7 DFGA, -2 Diff%.

Anyways no is denying his severe flaws, thats why Bender could eventually be the ideal frontcourt partner with his ability to stretch thefloor, come over for helspdie blocks, hedge/recover the screener against PnR

I guess we will see if he becomes the next Boogie (lighter version). The way you describe him he sounds more like Greg Monroe. I've seen you and others point out the similarities in their defensive numbers for one month, but neither are particularly impressive during that time frame....I mean league wide.

I actually like Okafor, but I am not sure how much value players like him have in today's nba. Sure he is a very good player, but so was Al Jefferson. If he was mediocre from a TS% standpoint, than those who consider and paid a lot to be one of the best offensive low post players in the league isn't particularly valuable. How is Okafor from the FT line? I don't think he is very good. I know you've mentioned you would take him ahead of Booker but not me.

[saintEscaton]

Okafor should be pretty damn happy if he ends up with a career as good as Al Jefferson's. Who do you expect him to be?

Big Al was pretty mediocre, he was below league average in TS% most , never surpassed a 110+ ORtg outside his short peak in Utah, a better defensive rebounder coming out and could hit turaround Js but was too finesse, often settling for shots outside of 10 feet. Big Al was the scapegoat most misinformed advocates of "small ball" use to eulogize the death of the post game when its really a lack of transcendent back to the backet bigs/emphasis in AAU that has changed the landscape. Jah was admittedly terrible by most APBR metrics, but he is a nearly automatic finisher inside the restricted area(almost 70% within 3 feet), might have even a softer touch around the cup between 3 and 10 feet(565 after Ish trade) and if he can get to the line at a solid rate he could be much better, plus his ability to pass out of a double team.He can also alter shots, although he is not a great rim protector he can body one on one. I see a Boogie Lite kind of player, Jah already outproduced him as a rookie. But hey some were saying Booker was Jodie Meeks 2.0 pre-draft
In the month of January
Jah
10.4 DefRtg, 48.4 DFG%, 13.2 DFGA, +0.6% Diff%. 6 feet. 55.3 DFG%, 6 DFGA, -6.0 Diff%.

KATs per 36 in that same time frame

21ppg, 11.7 boards, 1.6 blocks on 54% fg%

Defensive numbers

110.7 DefRtg, 48.9 DFG%, 13.6 DFGA, +1.6% Diff%. 6 feet, 58.6 DFG%, 7 DFGA, -2 Diff%.

Anyways no is denying his severe flaws, thats why Bender could eventually be the ideal frontcourt partner with his ability to stretch thefloor, come over for helspdie blocks, hedge/recover the screener against PnR

I guess we will see if he becomes the next Boogie (lighter version). The way you describe him he sounds more like Greg Monroe. I've seen you and others point out the similarities in their defensive numbers for one month, but neither are particularly impressive during that time frame....I mean league wide.

I actually like Okafor, but I am not sure how much value players like him have in today's nba. Sure he is a very good player, but so was Al Jefferson. If he was mediocre from a TS% standpoint, than those who consider and paid a lot to be one of the best offensive low post players in the league isn't particularly valuable. How is Okafor from the FT line? I don't think he is very good. I know you've mentioned you would take him ahead of Booker but not me.

I would probably go with Book, because its harder to build an half court offense arounng Jah to get him enough touches to be effective and his defensive woes are even more pronounced for a center , but I don't think its a consensus view like many assume