Bellator General Discussion and Info

[Bernman]

What are they telling you that isn't coming true here? They said they don't give shots away, and they aren't. Eddie has nice wins/finishes against good fighters and deserves the shot as much as anyone. If your issue is skipping the tournament, they have been transparent since Eddie signed the ufc offer sheet that if he returns to bellator he will get the shot at Chandler. That has been known for almost a year now.

Bellator is damned if they do damned if they don't here. People want to jump on them for this, but if they made Eddie go through the tournament then people would be saying "oh f the tourney and give us the fight we want already!". And yes a lot of those people would be the same criticizing for either decision.

If people want something to complain about bellator for, there is plentyyyy of it without having to point to giving us a rematch of one of the greatest fights ever. How about the fact that these guys are on the undercard to a garbage fight like Rampage vs Tito? Those guys have won a combined like 3 of their last 10 fights.

Dude, I'd give you a billion and 1's for your last two posts in the topic if I could.

He already earned it by getting thru a tourney, defending his belt, losing a competitive title match against a great fighter, and then not losing since, rather winning a couple more against notable fighters. It's easily been earned. People can't gripe about the tourney format, and Alvarez getting a shot, and the 3-can+1 tourneys involving King Mo. One can complain about 1-2 max, otherwise they're just looking for things to complain about. And that's always described Cammo in regards to Bellator. Like you said, they're damned if they do and if they don't. Some things they're blamable for and others they're not.

As far as this news is concerned, I'm happy because knowing Chandler would be tied to Bellator for a long time, he needs challenges, and Eddie will be one of them. It's also a proven great fight. In the meantime hopefully their prospect lw's like Sarnavskiy, Brooks, Sinclair, and even Sass can develop. Supposedly Michael Page wants to move down to LW too. I think it's a questionable decision, but it'd add more intrigue to the division surely. It has potential with talented Bellator originals.

BTW, the PPV at this point so far is including: Chandler/Alvarez II, Mo/Newton II, and Tito/Rampage. I would have vastly preferred Rampage/RJJ in MMA, but with the surrounding fights, this PPV is looking plenty buyable. It might end up being better than most UFC PPV's.

Ironically, on this same day there's news about notable Bellator talents being freed like the average fan wanted. Jessica Eye has been released, and it sounds like Bellator are abandoning altogether their plan of featuring women. I'm happy about that news as well because they were just being wasted by Bellator, and now cards won't be diluted by their presence. Although Eye is one of the few women I did enjoy watching fight.

[REDDzone]

As far as this news is concerned, I'm happy because knowing Chandler would be tied to Bellator for a long time, he needs challenges, and Eddie will be one of them. It's also a proven great fight. In the meantime hopefully their prospect lw's like Sarnavskiy, Brooks, Sinclair, and even Sass can develop. Supposedly Michael Page wants to move down to LW too. I think it's a questionable decision, but it'd add more intrigue to the division surely. It has potential with talented Bellator originals.

BTW, the PPV at this point so far is including: Chandler/Alvarez II, Mo/Newton II, and Tito/Rampage. I would have vastly preferred Rampage/RJJ in MMA, but with the surrounding fights, this PPV is looking plenty buyable. It might end up being better than most UFC PPV's.

Ironically, on this same day there's news about notable Bellator talents being freed like the average fan wanted. Jessica Eye has been released, and it sounds like Bellator are abandoning altogether their plan of featuring women. I'm happy about that news as well because they were just being wasted by Bellator, and now cards won't be diluted by their presence. Although Eye is one of the few women I did enjoy watching fight.

A few points here: First off I am happy you reminded me of Sass in bellator. I hope the kid does well. I don't even really know why, I think because I found out his base is luta livre. Lol, not sure why but I just think that is so bad ass. Secondly, happy to hear about the wmma in bellator thing, pretty much for the same reasons you are.

Finally, in regards to your point about the bellator ppv, unfortunately for bellator I do not see it working out well for them. I was listening to part of a planet money (a popular economics podcast) recently, and their topic was the issues that arise when companies try to charge for something that was historically free. Sometimes the fallout from that is almost irrational. UFC has never had this issue because they have always been in the ppv business. But I'm wondering if this is going to be an issue for bellator. I'm not sure if there is really a precedent here. Also not sure what the basement of buys is for it to be considered a success. Finally, I am really curious about the price. I think that will be a key component. UFC ppvs are too expensive nowadays.

[Cammo101]

He already earned it by getting thru a tourney, defending his belt, losing a competitive title match against a great fighter, and then not losing since, rather winning a couple more against notable fighters. It's easily been earned. People can't gripe about the tourney format, and Alvarez getting a shot, and the 3-can+1 tourneys involving King Mo. One can complain about 1-2 max, otherwise they're just looking for things to complain about. And that's always described Cammo in regards to Bellator. Like you said, they're damned if they do and if they don't. Some things they're blamable for and others they're not.

I've never griped about the tournament format. I like the tournament format. You can't have it both ways here if you are Bellator. You can't pretend your tourneys mean anything if you can make blanket carve outs to give random other people title shots who don't want to go through the tournaments.

People called me a hater when I said Strikeforce and Elite XC were going down the drain too, and I was right. I call um how I see um, and I have been plenty critical of the UFC too, when it is warranted. Despite what you may want to believe, I really like Bellator and have never missed a card. But, I see bad things on the horizon if they don't get their stuff together.

[Bernman]

Finally, in regards to your point about the bellator ppv, unfortunately for bellator I do not see it working out well for them. I was listening to part of a planet money (a popular economics podcast) recently, and their topic was the issues that arise when companies try to charge for something that was historically free. Sometimes the fallout from that is almost irrational. UFC has never had this issue because they have always been in the ppv business. But I'm wondering if this is going to be an issue for bellator. I'm not sure if there is really a precedent here. Also not sure what the basement of buys is for it to be considered a success. Finally, I am really curious about the price. I think that will be a key component. UFC ppvs are too expensive nowadays.

That's an interesting theory about not being able to transition smoothly from a free service to a paid one. It could wind up working against Bellator here.

Another is just them being Bellator, not having recognition, and most of the little they get is negative, in part due to their own recent actions, but Dana brainwashing the fan base as he typically does as well.

One thing they will have going for them though is Rampage. He has mainstream appeal. I'm pretty sure he could get on talk shows to promote the event. He's been on Craig Ferguson before a couple times, and he'll have guests return simply if he got on well with them. It has nothing to do with the projects they are currently involved in. Look what being on TMZ and Conan did for Ronda Rousey's PPV #'s. I'd venture to guess a large % of those people who bought them had never seen her fight before. Ironically, it may in part work in Bellator's favor that they didn't have mainstream recognition before, because then those people weren't aware it was offered for free up until now.

About the cost, the talk was it was higher than people were projecting. The numbers I saw thrown out were 45/35, which is only a lagging a little behind the 55/45 of UFC. I think Viacom said at the PPV presser that from their research price has little to do with whether a PPV sinks or swims. But I think they are rationalizing because of the sizable cut Eddie is slated to receive. If they did it real cheap, and it sold big, Eddie would be getting a HUGE % of the revenue. Who knows what Rampage's contract is too. They may simply have to charge a highish price to takeaway a high majority of the revenue and even have a chance of coming out ahead.

[Cammo101]

Finally, in regards to your point about the bellator ppv, unfortunately for bellator I do not see it working out well for them. I was listening to part of a planet money (a popular economics podcast) recently, and their topic was the issues that arise when companies try to charge for something that was historically free. Sometimes the fallout from that is almost irrational. UFC has never had this issue because they have always been in the ppv business. But I'm wondering if this is going to be an issue for bellator. I'm not sure if there is really a precedent here. Also not sure what the basement of buys is for it to be considered a success. Finally, I am really curious about the price. I think that will be a key component. UFC ppvs are too expensive nowadays.

I would argue that the UFC is having this issue right now. You can just wait a week and get your fix with a TV card. This is not the only reason PPV numbers are down, but it is one of them.

[SDM]

I think the obvious comparison is WEC 48, which did 175K buys. I don't remember the price on that... it was less than a UFC PPV, right? Yeah, price will be important. There's also MMA-centered promotion and backing from Zuffa versus a jack of all trades approach with Viacom, that could be important.

Now, Aldo/Faber main event (with Bendo/Cerrone co-main) is a low-to-mid level UFC PPV card... Tito/Rampage, is, at best the third fight on a modern UFC card.

[Cammo101]

I think the obvious comparison is WEC 48, which did 175K buys. I don't remember the price on that... it was less than a UFC PPV, right? Yeah, price will be important.

Now, Aldo/Faber main event (with Bendo/Cerrone co-main) is a low-to-mid level UFC PPV card... Tito/Rampage, is, at best the third fight on a modern UFC card.

Plus this card had the UFC pushing it hard, which definitely drove their PPV buys up a lot. I think the Affliction PPVs are the more obvious comparison.

[SDM]

I think the Affliction PPVs are the more obvious comparison.

Forgot about those! Good call.

They did 100K and then 90K.

[REDDzone]

I would argue that the UFC is having this issue right now. You can just wait a week and get your fix with a TV card. This is not the only reason PPV numbers are down, but it is one of them.

The main issue is too many ppv cards even. I almost wish they would go quarterly or something with it. I am a big mma fan obviously and generally don't find it worth it to buy a card. I'll buy a Silva fight, I'll buy a GSP fight, hell I'd have bought the Brock fights because those were a spectacle. Good fights or rematches as well...Maynard/Edgar III was must watch, JDS/Cain II, etc.

But to for example put Franklin/Wand along with a few brazilian tufers on a ppv. That is just lunacy. Especially when I can wait a few weeks and watch Mouse or Benson on a fox card. Honestly to me, same goes for Rashad/Hendo, Faber/Barao, etc.

Unless the card features a huge star like Silva or GSP, or else a huge fight or rematch, the ufc needs to get better about stacking the deck. And hell, half the time they "stack" the ppv with "names" that I don't really care about and put the actual good and interesting fights on fx, which is even less incentive to buy.

[Bernman]

I think the obvious comparison is WEC 48, which did 175K buys. I don't remember the price on that... it was less than a UFC PPV, right? Yeah, price will be important. There's also MMA-centered promotion and backing from Zuffa versus a jack of all trades approach with Viacom, that could be important.

Now, Aldo/Faber main event (with Bendo/Cerrone co-main) is a low-to-mid level UFC PPV card... Tito/Rampage, is, at best the third fight on a modern UFC card.

It's at best the 3rd best fight on this card too, after Chandler/Alvarez II and Mo/Newton II. They should promote Rampage/Tito among the casuals who know those names, Chandler/Alvarez II as one of the best fights ever among the die hards on Spike in general and the internet, and Mo/Newton II on TNA. There's no reason why you can't have multiple headliners when Silva/Weidman isn't on the card so it's ambiguous what will be the biggest draw.

[REDDzone]

I think the Affliction PPVs are the more obvious comparison.

Forgot about those! Good call.

They did 100K and then 90K.

I like the wec more because of the whole "was once free but now charging for it" aspect. However bellator won't have zuffa behind them. Hell, iirc they didn't even call that wec, they called it like "ufc presents: faber/aldo" or some such.

The reason I didn't bring up affliction is because they STARTED on ppv, as opposed to building a base on another network first. Right?

[REDDzone]

BTW, nice to get some discussion. This board has been dead lately, contributing to me having really slow days at work.

I still partially blame cbr for harrassing goldchain and instigating his departure.

[Cammo101]

I think the card they put around Tito and Rampage will be solid, but guys like Alvarez and Chandler are only going to bring the hardcore fan who was probably going to order the card regardless. Roy Jones vs. Rampage IMO was the only way Bellator could transition successfully to PPV. Their ratings are struggling on Spike, so it seems an odd time to make the jump to PPV IMO.

[Cammo101]

BTW, nice to get some discussion. This board has been dead lately, contributing to me having really slow days at work.

I still partially blame cbr for harrassing goldchain and instigating his departure.

I work less now, so I'm less likely to be pissing away my day on RealGM now.

[Bernman]

I think the Affliction PPVs are the more obvious comparison.

Forgot about those! Good call.

They did 100K and then 90K.

I like the wec more because of the whole "was once free but now charging for it" aspect. However bellator won't have zuffa behind them. Hell, iirc they didn't even call that wec, they called it like "ufc presents: faber/aldo" or some such.

The reason I didn't bring up affliction is because they STARTED on ppv, as opposed to building a base on another network first. Right?

Yeah, Affliction was a start-up. That's a terrible comparison.

WEC suffices much better as the #2 who had been around on TV for a while. Actually WEC was the #3 really, and only involved little guys who didn't sell as well. Bellator has big guys who are more marketable. So WEC is more than fair. Detractors shouldn't look for a reason for an even less favorable comparison. Bellator actually has more potential to sell than WEC did. But with Viacom pushing the buttons instead of Zuffa, it's doubtful they will come close to realizing it.

[REDDzone]

I work less now, so I'm less likely to be pissing away my day on RealGM now.

I work my 38-40 then bounce...but unfortunately for me my mind gets wired from bjj class such that I can't get to sleep early like my fiance. So I turn back to realgm for comfort usually at 11 pm or so.

[REDDzone]

Another factor is, I wonder if any sports bars will buy the bellator ppv? I'm guessing that is a pretty large source of ppv revenue for the ufc. That is what I do for the in between events. I'll split the GSP and Silva events usually with others, but for the Aldo fights, etc. I usually hit up the sports bars and suffer the broes.

[SDM]

The reason I didn't bring up affliction is because they STARTED on ppv, as opposed to building a base on another network first. Right?

Yeah. Though an argument could be made that Fedor is to Tito as Rampage is to Sylvia/Arlovski, except Rampage and Tito were more recently synonymous with the premier MMA org.

An aside, looking at the numbers, the average seat at Honda Centre for Affliction was around $200, if my math is correct. Seems really high... and they still didn't cover their purses ($500K short). They had 3K unpaid attendance. I don't quite remember the relationship between Affliction Entertainment and Finkelstein, but looking at those numbers, it seems they were expecting a break even from the gate and demands from Fedor's camp might have forced them into a PPV situation.

[Bernman]

I think the card they put around Tito and Rampage will be solid, but guys like Alvarez and Chandler are only going to bring the hardcore fan who was probably going to order the card regardless. Roy Jones vs. Rampage IMO was the only way Bellator could transition successfully to PPV. Their ratings are struggling on Spike, so it seems an odd time to make the jump to PPV IMO.

They already had to make the jump because of Alvarez and Rampage. This was in the works for a while.

You can't go by Fight Master ratings or Bellator live events out of season after a huge gap. They were doing well when they were in season. They might well struggle on Fridays now too because of it being a bad day for TV and losing some talent, but that remains to be seen. Wait until midseason when people actually know their events are on to make that declaration. They can use the routine of their events to promote the PPV which is nestled in between. That was actually a smart move by them for a recent change.

[REDDzone]

I don't quite remember the relationship between Affliction Entertainment and Finkelstein, but looking at those numbers, it seems they were expecting a break even from the gate and demands from Fedor's camp might have forced them into a PPV situation.

Ya but Bjork > Vadummy tho