The Lebron Thread (Pt. 3)

[No_]

Miami has an issue. LeBron is better without Wade. They were rolling without him, and kind of felt like Spo just had to put D-Wade back in around 4m because of who he is, but seemed risky.

Miami can mimic that with bench players, but requires taking Wade out.

LeBron needs to dominate the offense entirely to get the most of him. When you move him off ball, suddenly he doesn't work so well with other talented offensive players that need the ball, unless he is in transition.

It would be worrying as a Heat fan to me that LeBron 'getting aggressive' usually means solely barreling to the rim, hoping people either clear out for him, or foul him. Especially vs defenses like the Spurs that pack it in.

What happened to his post game from last year, its been in hiding. He needs to diversify.

The biggest issue with Wade and Lebron on the floor together is that Wade totally clogs the spacing, lacks his former explosiveness to make up for his bad shooting, and has been incredibly careless with the ball. That, and he complains about calls after every miss, failing to get back, and it leads to easy transition opportunities where the defense is stressed. If he still had any semblance of his former athleticism, and wasn't injured, then his cutting ability would negate a lot of the issues. But as is, he isn't capable of doing a lot out there. He played a few good possessions on defense at the end, but overall he definitely felt like a detractor.

Lebron has been fine without the ball. The biggest issue for me with this team, and something that drives me crazy, is the lack of good entry passers. It is a skill that gets overlooked. Compare the passes into the post that Splitter or Duncan get compared to Lebron. His post-ups are fine, it is always a mess getting him the ball and the team is still figuring out how to clear out enough space for him to do his thing so he isn't getting tripled and doubled right away.

This team still has to grow a lot and adapt. They're figuring it out.

[microfib4thewin]

The biggest issue with Wade and Lebron on the floor together is that Wade totally clogs the spacing, lacks his former explosiveness to make up for his bad shooting, and has been incredibly careless with the ball. That, and he complains about calls after every miss, failing to get back, and it leads to easy transition opportunities where the defense is stressed. If he still had any semblance of his former athleticism, and wasn't injured, then his cutting ability would negate a lot of the issues. But as is, he isn't capable of doing a lot out there. He played a few good possessions on defense at the end, but overall he definitely felt like a detractor.

Lebron has been fine without the ball. The biggest issue for me with this team, and something that drives me crazy, is the lack of good entry passers. It is a skill that gets overlooked. Compare the passes into the post that Splitter or Duncan get compared to Lebron. His post-ups are fine, it is always a mess getting him the ball and the team is still figuring out how to clear out enough space for him to do his thing so he isn't getting tripled and doubled right away.

This team still has to grow a lot and adapt. They're figuring it out.

The PG spot is their achilles heel. That's simply something they have to accept given their current salary structure. Additonally, as good as Lebron could be in the post he's not a 7 footer who can be both a lethal scoring threat and a lethal passing threat from the post at the same time the way that Shaq and Hakeem are capable of, so I wouldn't say with certainty that having good post entry will solve Miami's spacing issue.

[Showtime:Part2]

btw, the numbers also back up that wade/lebron are not the optimal combo on the floor. it's better to just have lebron and shooters:

http://www.businessinsider.com/dwyane-wade-nba-finals-stats-2013-6

lebron made his bed though and now he has to lie in it, so i'm not going to give him a pass on his efficiency just because it's blatant that he's actually efficient without wade. but as i said, he's been marvelous outside of scoring effeciency and one aspect shouldn't stop people from admitting he's the best player in the game and on the floor by a mile.

[therealbig3]

the lebron hate needs to stop. the only thing he's not doing well is shooting efficiently. other than that he's been phenomenal.

wow did I really just read what i think I just read

mind = blown

i don't follow.

He's probably thinking of another poster with a very similar name that constantly hates on LeBron.

[PCProductions]

Miami vs. San Antonio 2013 Finals (6 G)

Lebron ORtg: 110.1
Lebron DRtg: 111.8
Net: -1.7

The Plus-Minus data for series is obviously very noisy given how wildly the scores swing from game to game. Lebron's basically running par for the course while he's on the court.

Looking at some 3-man lineups, I found some very descriptive information:

3-Man Lineups (MP > 50):

Allen-James-Miller (67.7 MP):
146.2 ORtg
104.2 DRtg
+42.0 Net

Chalmers-James-Miller (80.3 MP):
129.5 ORtg
100.0 DRtg
+29.5 Net

Allen-Chalmers-James (73.1 MP):
120.1 ORtg
94.6 DRtg
+25.6 Net

And then let's look at the 4 man lineups with MP > 50

Bosh-Chalmers-James-Miller (65.0 MP)
119.2 ORtg
105.0 DRtg
+14.2 Net

Allen-Bosh-Chalmers-James (51.4 MP)
109.5 ORtg
103.2 DRtg
+6.2 Net

Seems like it's true that surrounding James with shooters to provide the ultimate spacing and having a big in Bosh is what's been most successful.

The key here is pretty obvious, though, and that is that none of those lineups have Wade in them. Let's look at the 2-mans with MP > 100

James-Miller (129.2 MP):
128.6 ORtg
108.5 DRtg
+20.1 Net

Allen-James (147.9 MP):
117.7 ORtg
112.3 DRtg
+5.4 Net

What's the worst 2-man lineup with 100 MP, you ask?

James-Wade (193.7 MP):
102.8 ORtg
117.5 DRtg
-14.7 Net

[TheChosen618]

This dude was 1-9 from the field and had 9 points from the 4:45 mark of the first quarter through the end of the 3rd quarter (that's 31+ minutes of game time, in case you're wondering) and people say that he doesn't disappear and/or be rendered ineffective for long stretches? People have the nerve to act like this series has been a good one?

It's not a good one if you are just looking at it from a scoring aspect only. If you are looking at the way he has been facilitating, playing defense, rebounding, etc. He has been great.

I do think he has been too passive, but I think Wade is the ultimate cause for it. Lebron doesn't get enough spacing when Wade is out there because at this point he is probably the worst jump shooter in the NBA. Lebron also tries to get Wade going far too often. Lebron has been aggressive and has been at his best when he has been surrounded by Allen and Miller and other shooters instead.

If Wade didn't even play in this series, I think the Heat would have won this series in 5-6.

Wade's defense on Green has been crap too.

[Jordan23Forever]

So Lebron needs more than 3 great shooters on the floor with him to be effective? He needs all 4 players to be great shooters? And now Wade is the worst jumpshooter in the NBA? Hyperbole much?

[TheChosen618]

So Lebron needs more than 3 great shooters on the floor with him to be effective? He needs all 4 players to be great shooters? And now Wade is the worst jumpshooter in the NBA? Hyperbole much?

I'm pretty sure Udonis Haslem at this point provides better spacing than Wade does. Plus, Lebron seems to play fine even with Andersen at Center, so he doesn't need 4 shooters, but he probably does need at least 3. The Heat didn't run this 4 shooter offense with Lebron until the Finals when Bosh returned from his injury.

Lebron has always been better offensively with Wade off the court. Last year, I remember there were stats that showed that Lebron was putting up 2009-2010 Cleveland numbers with Wade not playing and on the bench.

[NO-KG-AI]

This is what I like to see from my star player. Forget comparisons to other players, or how they did, etc... when things get rough.. collapsing defense, cold shooting, ETC, use the physical gifts that no other player can match to put a huge imprint on the game. Push your team back into it whatever way you can. Don't worry about style points, or doing it like a certain other player, just raise your energy and effort level to a point where no one can match you.

[orangeparka]

This dude was 1-9 from the field and had 9 points from the 4:45 mark of the first quarter through the end of the 3rd quarter (that's 31+ minutes of game time, in case you're wondering) and people say that he doesn't disappear and/or be rendered ineffective for long stretches? People have the nerve to act like this series has been a good one?

It's not a good one if you are just looking at it from a scoring aspect only. If you are looking at the way he has been facilitating, playing defense, rebounding, etc. He has been great.

I do think he has been too passive, but I think Wade is the ultimate cause for it. Lebron doesn't get enough spacing when Wade is out there because at this point he is probably the worst jump shooter in the NBA. Lebron also tries to get Wade going far too often. Lebron has been aggressive and has been at his best when he has been surrounded by Allen and Miller and other shooters instead.

If Wade didn't even play in this series, I think the Heat would have won this series in 5-6.

Wade's defense on Green has been crap too.

What? Wade's been hitting very key midrange jumpers this series. He somehow found it again after being horrible for the first three rounds...

The Wade/James combo's a different debate altogether, but saying Wade's the worst jumpshooter's just wrong. I even recall him hitting a few spot-up ones off Lebron dishes, which he's never been good at in the first place.

[PCProductions]

Wade's issue is such a strange one. It's him just being on the court that causes problems, not his play. It's such an interesting glimpse into how coaches execute based on who's there rather than what's happening.

[TheChosen618]

What? Wade's been hitting very key midrange jumpers this series. He somehow found it again after being horrible for the first three rounds...

Yeah, mid-range shots where he is literally wide opened and dared to take and even then he has been inconsistent at it. I doubt Udonis Haslem would even be given the time and space that Wade is.

http://www.businessinsider.com/dwyane-w ... ats-2013-6

Miami had an offensive efficiency of 92.0 with both LeBron and Wade on the court in Game 6.

Miami had an offensive efficiency of 143.3 with LeBron on the court and Wade on the bench in Game 6.

For the entire series, Miami has an offensive efficiency of 100.8 and a defensive efficiency of 112.7 with both LeBron and Wade on the court.

For the entire series, Miami has an offensive efficiency of 131.7 and a defensive efficiency of 89.5 with LeBron on the court and Wade on the bench.

[GreenHat]

I honestly can't fathom how anyone can have watched this series and thinks that Lebron has had even a "good" series. It has been a disgrace. He has been invisible for 80% of the series and looks lost most of the time. The Spurs aren't even loading up on him defensively.

I honestly can't fathom the amount of hater posts that come from you. Its an obsession. Why don't you start a Jordan thread where you can worship him forever? Your agenda is obvious so why not just go the direct route?

i dont see why he needs to diversify when he's that good at barreling to the rim. if it ain't broke, don't fix it. he's shown 0 decline in athletic ability so i don't see any reason to worry either.

Except he hasn't been that good and has been rendered ineffective and has looked lost for long stretches of this series. I would estimate that he has been basically invisible for upwards of 70% of this entire series. His bursts are production come just like that: in bursts. And usually when the team is either up or after his team has made a run and he gets some of his mojo back. He hasn't been the one leading the charge the vast majority of the time.

What are you talking about? Your hatred has completely blinded you.

Who lead the charge last night? Who led the charge in that 33-5 run in the blowout? The Heat won 3 games and Lebron "led the charge" in two of those three runs. Seriously what series are you watching?

Also he's been invisible 70% of the series? Defense is 50% of the series. Parker will tell you how invisible he has been on that side of the ball. No wonder people who worship Jordan like you think he was the greatest perimeter player of all time, they don't seem to watch defense.

It hasn't been a "good series" for him but its far from a "disgrace". I seriously have no idea what series you are watching the "vast majority of the time" these runs are being led by others until Lebron gets his "mojo back". Its an intellectually lazy argument whose premises are faulty to begin with.

Did you know that J23F disappeared and was rendered ineffective from this thread for a long stretch of 2 months before finally showing up at the end just like LeBron. You are like LeBron, disappear like a rat, then appear when the moment is convenient for you.

Last I remember of him he was going on about how Lebron wasn't a better 3 point shooter than Jordan and how the 40% shooting wouldn't last the whole season.

But you're right he's been invisible for about 90% - hey I can make up percentages too! - of this thread.

[ElGee]

I honestly can't fathom how anyone can have watched this series and thinks that Lebron has had even a "good" series. It has been a disgrace. He has been invisible for 80% of the series and looks lost most of the time. The Spurs aren't even loading up on him defensively.

I think this is an instructive post.

The Spurs entire gameplan has been to "load up" on LeBron. They are basically having Tim Duncan play goaltender -- all he has to do is not get called for defensive 3 seconds (and perhaps the officials have been liberal with that), but his job when LeBron catches the ball in an isolation on one side, the pinch post or the low block has been to stand in the lane and play goalie. What happens to Duncan's man, you ask? Usually Dwyane Wade's guy will just leave him to come down into the fray so if Duncan has to really commit to James, another Spur will be in the paint. San Antonio has basically built a wall at the hoop, and they've done this because they feel it's the best way to defend an attack that is predicated on the ability of James to be a threat near the basket.

And for good reason! LeBron shot 38% of his shots at the rim this year. He shot 76% on those shots. This is like peak Shaq's production at the hoop. Pop and co. didn't exactly need to unearth the Rosetta Stone to formulate this strategy. (For comparison, 2009 Wade shot 33% of his shots at the rime...at just 66%. Durant shot 21% of his shots at the rim this year at a lower percentage. 2006 Kobe 20% at 61%. 2001 Shaq 43% at 79%.) What's radical, and ingenuous, is their total disregard for other players. They are almost conceding the Bosh jumper every time, because hey, even at 45% that's 0.90 pts/pos which is below Miami's normal output on the James Train. They literally leave Wade unguarded like he's Rajon Rondo. All of this is to contain LeBron James.

This is why the Miller-Allen lineups have been such a problem for them defensively. The first thing that happened yesterday when that lineup appeared in the 4th quarter wasn't that Miller and Allen started reigning 3's, it was the Spurs decided it would a be a terrible idea to leave them wide open...and LeBron James went on a rampage at the hoop. And he did so doing the same things he's done all series, there just wasn't a wall behind his defender clogging the paint.

Now, has his jumpshot been inconsistent? Sure. But this is heavily overstated -- he's shot 12-27 outside 15 feet in the series, although his 3-pointer from above the fold has been dreadful. He's an amazing athlete, but it's been my contention that his outside shot rarely clicks with his max defensive efforts. That, and the his legs look heavy -- I'm pretty sure he could get by Boris Diaw off the dribble a few months ago. While those are certainly limitations in his play right now, they don't undo the tremendous value he has consistently imparted on the series with his defense, creation, and production closer to the basket.

[Jordan23Forever]

1-9 FG for 9 points in 31 minutes of game time from the 4:45 mark of the first quarter through the beginning of the 4th quarter. But yeah, you guys are right - he hasn't disappeared or been rendered ineffective for large stretches of the series! How could I not see the light!?

[ardee]

1-9 FG for 9 points in 31 minutes of game time from the 4:45 mark of the first quarter through the beginning of the 4th quarter. But yeah, you guys are right - he hasn't disappeared or been rendered ineffective for large stretches of the series! How could I not see the light!?

Scoring is one facet of the game, you know.

LeBron has played fabulous defense on the player who ripped up the league's best defense in the previous round and almost negated his influence on the game.

He's rebounding like one of the best centers in the league.

He's finding shooters with absurd accuracy. Prior to his 6 turnovers in game 6 he had a 3.4 AST/TOV ratio.

If he was scoring at his usual efficiency this would be probably an overall more impactful series than anything Jordan ever showed.

Agreed his playoff production dropped to the point I won't consider him for GOAT season any longer but your words smack of someone who's favorite player is threatened by LeBron. Which I don't understand, MJ is definitely better, at least to me there's no question. But LeBron is still amazing, why are you not recognizing it?

[colts18]

I honestly can't fathom how anyone can have watched this series and thinks that Lebron has had even a "good" series. It has been a disgrace. He has been invisible for 80% of the series and looks lost most of the time. The Spurs aren't even loading up on him defensively.

I think this is an instructive post.

The Spurs entire gameplan has been to "load up" on LeBron. They are basically having Tim Duncan play goaltender -- all he has to do is not get called for defensive 3 seconds (and perhaps the officials have been liberal with that), but his job when LeBron catches the ball in an isolation on one side, the pinch post or the low block has been to stand in the lane and play goalie. What happens to Duncan's man, you ask? Usually Dwyane Wade's guy will just leave him to come down into the fray so if Duncan has to really commit to James, another Spur will be in the paint. San Antonio has basically built a wall at the hoop, and they've done this because they feel it's the best way to defend an attack that is predicated on the ability of James to be a threat near the basket.

Yeah its crazy to say the Spurs aren't loading up on LeBron





Notice how many guys are either in the paint or looking at LeBron?

[Jordan23Forever]

Again, Lebron was 1-9 FG for 9 points in 31 minutes of game time from the 4:45 mark of the first quarter through the beginning of the 4th quarter in game 6. But yeah, you guys are right - he hasn't disappeared or been rendered ineffective for large stretches of the series! How could I not see the light!?

ElGee, he's 12-27 from midrange for the series? Wow, great. So he's attempted just 4-5 midrange shots per game despite the 6-9 foot cushion they've been giving him all series, daring him to take those shots. Like I said: dude has been invisible for large stretches of the series, is mentally shook, and has no confidence whatsoever in his shot. The way they've been playing him, he should have been attempting like 10+ 15-20 footers per game and making a great % of them due to the space they're giving him. Him hardly attempting any such shots is precisely what I'm talking about. This is to say nothing of the fact that the majority of these shots (and makes) come in clusters, usually only when the Heat are up and playing well.

Here are some other long stretches where he has disappeared. And it's not like this is when his team is up comfortably (which, oddly enough, is when he plays his best - he's a front-runner in that respect) - this is when they are down or the game is very much in question, and he just disappears or does nothing for long stretches of time.

From game 5:

4:45 mark of the 1st quarter through the 5:45 mark of the second quarter (11 minutes of game time): the score is tied 17-17 at the start of this stretch, and SA then goes on a 12-0 run and eventually a 19-5 run to end that stretch up 47-34. During these 11 minutes, Lebron goes 0-3 FG for 0 points. Invisible.

10:42 mark of the 3rd quarter through 3:27 mark of the 4th quarter (19 minutes of game time): Lebron goes 0-7 FG for 1 point. San Antonio goes from a 1 point lead at the start of this stretch to a 15 point lead at the end of it, and Lebron is (again) invisible.

In case you're counting, that makes 30 minutes of game time in game 5 where Lebron went a combined 0-10 from the field for 1 point. During these 30 minutes, SA went from being tied or only up 1 point to having monstrous leads each time (that's the worst part - it'd be a bit different if the Heat were up or playing well). And the Heat's leader, Lebron James, did nothing to counter it. Invisible. Shook.


Game 3:

3:24 mark of the 1st quarter through the 2:04 mark of the second quarter (13+ minutes of game time): 0-4 FG for 0 points. The Heat went from being down 3 points to being down 8 points during this time.

He then makes a layup (shock!) at the 2:04 mark of the 2nd quarter, which is followed by this stretch of nothingness:

2:04 mark of the 2nd quarter through the 1:36 mark of the 3rd quarter (12.5 minutes of game time): 0-5 FG for 0 points. During this stretch, the Heat went from being down 3 to being down 19 points, and Lebron - fearless leader - did nothing at all.

In total, from the 3:24 mark of the 1st quarter through the 1:36 mark of the 3rd quarter (26 minutes of game time), Lebron was 1-10 from the field for 2 points. During this time, San Antonio was +21. They opened up a huge lead and Lebron did bubkes.


Please, PLEASE don't make me do this type of analysis for other games, because it won't be pretty. GOAT my ass. You people are comically blind to his shortcomings and his shrinking from the moment. As I said, he has been INVISIBLE for large stretches of this series - 70-80% if I had to estimate. His stretches of good play have come in short spurts for the most part. This salvages his overall numbers, making it look somewhat respectable, but to anyone who has actually been watching the series - and is not a huge Lebron fan like several folks in this thread - he has looked invisible and timid for most of the series.

[lorak]

Well, so lets play that game with Jordan:

1991 finals

game 1
last 3 minutes of 4th
at the beginning of that stretch Bulls lead 87-86
clutch time, his team needs him, but Jordan disappears!
he takes only 2 shots and misses both of them. He also can't guard Magic, need help and that leaves Perkins open, who hits 3.

Bulls lose 91-93 after unclutch Jordan performance!

game 3
from the middle of 1st quarter (21-19 Bulls lead)
to the end of 4th Jordan shot 4/17 and his teammates, especially Pippen and Cliff (12 points on 6/7 FG combined in the 4th) take away the lead from Lakers (72-64 after 3rd quarter) and force OT.

To quote some wise man: GOAT my ass.

[Jordan23Forever]

Nice try David Stern, but the two situations aren't even remotely comparable, neither in the amount of time this occurred over nor in their features. In one case you're talking about a couple of minutes in one gam (as opposed to 25-30+ minutes of game time in multiple games), and in the other case you're talking about one bad game, which everyone has from time to time. With Lebron, it's the PATTERN and FREQUENCY of such disappearing acts that is disturbing. This is not one bad entire game, or a very short stretch of inactivity during one game - it's multiple bad games with multiple, LONG stretches of inactivity and ineffectiveness.

The fact that you would even try to rationalize this away is HYSTERICAL.