Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov

[midranger]

Caron isn't great at this point, but I think he has more life left in his legs than given credit here.

I went to high school with Caron. He loves Racine. I think we'll see a bit of a turnaround on the homecoming.

That isn't really what we need, at all. But I'm guessing he'll surprise the people considering him a net negative to next year's team.

[WiscoKing13]

Think if Skiles was still the coach, we'd have at least 20 combinations of starting lineups by the end of the year

[Bfinkish]

Think if Skiles was still the coach, we'd have at least 20 combinations of starting lineups by the end of the year

haha. very true.

Many on this board still have Skile's glasses on with this team. We have to understand Drew is now running things. This will be easier to watch through the year. I can promise us all that. I think many of us will be surprised on how good the team will be compared to what we think.

[Chapter29]

Also I'd rather have 33 year old Caron @ 1yr 8mil than 32 year old Korver @ 3yrs 21mil that we offered earlier this offseason.

Ya, we ended up with Delfino instead. Even worse. The Butler trade wasn't a bad trade at all. I'd rather have him over both of these guys.

Delfino at 2yrs/$6M is much better than Korver at 3yrs/$21M

True. Just either way, don't like the player.

[Chapter29]

We gave away our guy when we gave away Bogut. As sad as that may be. Ellis can go. Ellis may be NBA talent, but sorry so is Mayo. We can argue one over the other, but neither are a star or a franchise players.

I'm sorry, but the Bogut we gave away was a shell of his former self. He was talking about potentially retiring last year. He hobbled around the court, and while he was still able to make some plays here and there, or for some 5-7 minutes stretches, I question what he can do over the next three years. I'd love to see it happen, but between the ankle, back, and elbow, it is a tall order. I hated getting Monta Ellis, but I'm glad we made a move. I only wish we then unloaded Monta for some expiring value, like a 1st round pick of any sort.

As for Larry, I like his impact on the defensive end of course, and last year he put up amazing stats, but we also were a defensive sieve that allowed the most shots in the paint. It will be interesting to see if Larry's block numbers decline, if only because Knight and Mayo will not allow their men to get inside as much. That isn't a knock on Larry at all, but if we look just at his BPG next year, it might not be a good way to evaluate his progression.

I am aware of the Bogut situation. And I am also aware that he currently is a good player. He is healthy. Now really is where the gamble for us was. We deemed him injury prone. Will he be from here on out? If not, it was a great trade for GS.

I like Larry. He's just not a star player. He anchors our defense and that is why we signed him.

[NiqtheAntiq]

Think if Skiles was still the coach, we'd have at least 20 combinations of starting lineups by the end of the year

Problem with Skiles is that he seems to favor vets who will play his system over guys who are young and need to be playing so they can develop. I am not high on Scott Skiles unless you are a team already somewhat developed like Chicago was or Phoenix back in the day. Even then you likely aren't getting deep in the playoffs with him leading your team as players don't play hard for him and vets buy into his system just to get a big payout like Ben Gordon did. I feel Drew will play alot of iso ball, yet I feel he is comfortable giving guys like Udoh and Henson the minutes they deserve and other guys who are best for the team to give the minutes to longterm while staying competitive. Skiles tinkers with his lineups so much because he knows his idea of having a rotation full of vets won't fly with upper management. He basically ruined the Bucks chances of having a bonafide 3 spot guy in Tobias Harris in order that he could have a vet that was going to leave anyway in JJ Riddick

I was honestly surprised he starting using Sanders before he ended up on another team from lack of PT as I feel he would prefer to use guys like Dalembert and Gooden in his lineups even though both players are better suited on teams that aren't fringe playoff like the Bucks were last season and just end up getting overpaid from inflated stats and past their prime with a big contract that is hard to unload.

[Bfinkish]

Think if Skiles was still the coach, we'd have at least 20 combinations of starting lineups by the end of the year

Problem with Skiles is that he seems to favor vets who will play his system over guys who are young and need to be playing so they can develop. I am not high on Scott Skiles unless you are a team already somewhat developed like Chicago was or Phoenix back in the day. Even then you likely aren't getting deep in the playoffs with him leading your team as players don't play hard for him and vets buy into his system just to get a big payout like Ben Gordon did. I feel Drew will play alot of iso ball, yet I feel he is comfortable giving guys like Udoh and Henson the minutes they deserve and other guys who are best for the team to give the minutes to longterm while staying competitive. Skiles tinkers with his lineups so much because he knows his idea of having a rotation full of vets won't fly with upper management.

I was honestly surprised he starting using Sanders before he ended up on another team from lack of PT as I feel he would prefer to use guys like Dalembert and Gooden in his lineups even though both players are better suited on teams that aren't fringe playoff like the Bucks were last season and just end up getting overpaid from inflated stats and past their prime with a big contract that is hard to unload.

Great point. We must be thankful Skiles didn't do this. It would've made Tobias Harris not as bad if we would've gotten rid of Larry. Gosh I'm so happy Skiles is gone.

[HurricaneKid]

The silliest thing the Bucks have done this off-season is to put all of their eggs in the Larry Sanders basket.

I don't mind rolling the dice on Sanders to see if he turns into the real deal, but the Bucks team is really devoid of talent. Ellis and Jennings were not a good fit together, but at least they were NBA talent.

Sanders is a horribly flawed player, despite his great defensive skills. He would be awesome in the Ervin Johnson role, paired with an offensive minded big 3 who can blaze away from the perimeter. But on most teams your top players need to have some balance. Sanders does not. I fear that he is the anti Monta Ellis - great on one side of the ball, horrid on the other side.

I don't think that one team in the East is worried about having to face the Larry Sanders-led Milwaukee Bucks.

Larry Sanders is not a star and not a franchise player, heck not even sure if he's an all-star caliber player.

We gave away our guy when we gave away Bogut. As sad as that may be.

My mind is BLOWN. You can impact your team offensively and you can impact your team defensively. Here is the list of players that had a bigger impact offensively than Sanders had defensively last year:
LeBron James
Chris Paul
Thats it. Thats the list. Even KDs offensive impact was less than Sanders defensive impact. Thats why Tyson Chandler got $20MM/season. To be the player Larry Sanders is. Is he terrible offensively? Yes, sadly he is. But his defensive impact is enormous.
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html

And I have NO IDEA how you could pine for Bogut when you have Sanders. They are both elite defensively and pretty bad offensive players. But Sanders is better defensively, younger, and significantly cheaper. And at least he is on the court. The bucks got 108 games from Monta and the Warriors got 32 games from Bogut. I still root for Bogut but c'mon.

[HurricaneKid]

Now i'd have to look at the 2010 claim, but the bucks traded Alexander/Warrick(expirings) for salmons and the right to swap picks. Salmons had a PO that chicago didn't want him to pick up.

The trade was on June 23rd, 2011. The Lockout was from July 1-Dec 25th. There has been a new CBA since that time. One that places very little reward for taking on an expiring contract.

[Chapter29]

And I have NO IDEA how you could pine for Bogut when you have Sanders. They are both elite defensively and pretty bad offensive players. But Sanders is better defensively, younger, and significantly cheaper. And at least he is on the court. The bucks got 108 games from Monta and the Warriors got 32 games from Bogut. I still root for Bogut but c'mon.

Pine for Bogut? Not at all.

My comments on Bogut where that was our last real "talent" and it wasn't Ellis. Would I take him back? Sure I think a Bogut / Sanders pairing would be a good one. Is he worth the injury risk? Time will tell, but it wont be the Bucks taking the chance.

[Chuck Diesel]

Can Gary Neal play point guard if Ridnour or Knight goes down?

[theFireBlanket]

Can Gary Neal play point guard if Ridnour or Knight goes down?

Based on the results he showed in San Antonio when cast into that position from what I've read and from watching them play, no he shouldn't.

eta: Here's a few responses from the thread Bango posted on the Spurs forum inquiring about Neal:

He's a great shooter both standing still and off the dribble, he's got a knack for making big shots, and he can handle the ball a bit but you really can't count on him to play PG or to create. Defensively he's not the greatest; he's gets lost a lot and he's not quick enough to guard PG and not big enough to guard SG/SF's.

Overall I think he's a great pickup for the Bucks at a pretty good price.

The cons : He is an atrocious defender. He can't defend PGs or SGs well. Too slow to defend PGs and too small and nonathletic to defend SGs. His ball-handling skills are bad and that's why it's a bad idea to play him as a PG.

And his contract is not that bad. A lot of pure shooters that can't defend a chair got way more money than him (Novak, Korver, Miller).

I think Bucks fans will be happy with him as a backup SG.

[ampd]

We have a whole bunch of OK guys to initiate the offense but nobody who is really good at creating shots for others. Between Delfino, Mayo, Neal, Giannis, and Wolters, we have a bunch of guys capable of taking a piece of the ball handling, so if Knight / Ridnour were both hurt we'd probably spread the responsibility around. I'm guessing we will do it anyway even if everyone is healthy.

[raferfenix]

If Caron is going to really be a starting caliber SF and we really want to win now, we still should go trade Middleton, Udoh, and 2nd round picks for an upgrade anywhere.

We are full of 7-9th men. We could really use even a legitimate 6th man. That is, if we aren't stealth tanking.

[ampd]

If Caron is going to really be a starting caliber SF and we really want to win now, we still should go trade Middleton, Udoh, and 2nd round picks for an upgrade anywhere.

We are full of 7-9th men. We could really use even a legitimate 6th man. That is, if we aren't stealth tanking.

That package is pretty unlikely to net us an upgrade. If we want a legit starter, we are going to have to trade Ersan and/or a 1st most likely.

[raferfenix]

If Caron is going to really be a starting caliber SF and we really want to win now, we still should go trade Middleton, Udoh, and 2nd round picks for an upgrade anywhere.

We are full of 7-9th men. We could really use even a legitimate 6th man. That is, if we aren't stealth tanking.

That package is pretty unlikely to net us an upgrade. If we want a legit starter, we are going to have to trade Ersan and/or a 1st most likely.

Agreed we might not get a starter, but even a 6th or 7th man would help us more than a 3rd string SF of PF, which is the best Middleton or Udoh seem to offer us this year.

Henson at the moment is our best player off the bench, but he is also playing behind Ersan, who seems like he will be our top option offensively and only big man who can score at all.

[Baddy Chuck]

We shouldn't be trading anyone for an "upgrade" unless they are pretty damn good and pretty damn young.

[Ayt]

If Caron is going to really be a starting caliber SF and we really want to win now, we still should go trade Middleton, Udoh, and 2nd round picks for an upgrade anywhere.

We are full of 7-9th men. We could really use even a legitimate 6th man. That is, if we aren't stealth tanking.

Why would any team give up a guy capable of being a legitimate 6th man -- I'm guessing by that you mean some type of scorer on the wing -- for that trade package?

[ampd]

If Caron is going to really be a starting caliber SF and we really want to win now, we still should go trade Middleton, Udoh, and 2nd round picks for an upgrade anywhere.

We are full of 7-9th men. We could really use even a legitimate 6th man. That is, if we aren't stealth tanking.

Why would any team give up a guy capable of being a legitimate 6th man -- I'm guessing by that you mean some type of scorer on the wing -- for that trade package?

Yeah, nobody is trading a 6th man for our bucket of ass.

[Badgerlander]

I bet we could get Jimmer for Udoh+2nd