The Zach Lavine Problem

[fleet]

If LaVine, a guy coming off an ACL injury and is about to get paid is a cornerstone of a rebuild, said rebuild isn't off to a great start.

Ok? I'm actually as disturbed by this as anything that has happened over the last couple of years. These guys are completely lost. One thing to acquire a decent player, and to consider the player as a future piece . Another to annoint as "the cornerstone". Cornerstones are basically untouchables. Good grief.

[Jcool0]

If LaVine, a guy coming off an ACL injury and is about to get paid is a cornerstone of a rebuild, said rebuild isn't off to a great start.

Ok? I'm actually as disturbed by this as anything that has happened over the last couple of years. These guys are completely lost. One thing to acquire a decent player, and to consider the player as a future piece . Another to annoint as "the cornerstone". Cornerstones are basically untouchables. Good grief.

FWIW Bulls said centerpiece not cornerstone.

[fleet]

Is there a difference?

[Paxson43]

You don't trade Butler for Dunn and Markkanen. That's why they held firm on wanting LaVine and in the end we had to throw in the 16th pick to make it happen.

He's a 22 year old ascending talent. You can listen to things being said about the kid by people that know far more about basketball than I do and they believe his arrow is firmly pointing upwards.

Here's what I know: he's gotten better every single year he has been in the league, he is going to be our #1/best player on our roster, and he's a good-natured kid that has a ferocious work ethic. I like my odds.

As for his defense... if Doug freaking McDermott had a +0.8 DWS last season, I'm not worried about what LaVine will be able to do. Different system/approach than what Thibs wants done.

[kingkirk]

Not sure what your definition of "Budding" star is...

But Lavine fits mine...

I don't think it's the definition of 'budding' that is in question. 'Star' is what I'm questioning. I'm not even convinced he can be a top 40-50 player let alone a star.

[kingkirk]

You don't trade Butler for Dunn and Markkanen. That's why they held firm on wanting LaVine and in the end we had to throw in the 16th pick to make it happen.

He's a 22 year old ascending talent. You can listen to things being said about the kid by people that know far more about basketball than I do and they believe his arrow is firmly pointing upwards.

Here's what I know: he's gotten better every single year he has been in the league, he is going to be our #1/best player on our roster, and he's a good-natured kid that has a ferocious work ethic. I like my odds.

It's truly fascinating to me how Bulls fans of all people can be so buoyant about a prospect after he's had an ACL injury, as if we didn't go through the Derrick Rose experience.

You can list out all the pros as to why LaVine will be good, but not mentioning or taking into account his injury seems a little disingenuous. It's a huge red flag.

As for his defense... if Doug freaking McDermott had a +0.8 DWS last season, I'm not worried about what LaVine will be able to do. Different system/approach than what Thibs wants done.

If you're using Doug McDermott having a +DWS as your example, it's probably not a great example...

[wablty]

You don't trade Butler for Dunn and Markkanen. That's why they held firm on wanting LaVine and in the end we had to throw in the 16th pick to make it happen.

He's a 22 year old ascending talent. You can listen to things being said about the kid by people that know far more about basketball than I do and they believe his arrow is firmly pointing upwards.

Here's what I know: he's gotten better every single year he has been in the league, he is going to be our #1/best player on our roster, and he's a good-natured kid that has a ferocious work ethic. I like my odds.

As for his defense... if Doug freaking McDermott had a +0.8 DWS last season, I'm not worried about what LaVine will be able to do. Different system/approach than what Thibs wants done.

I'm a Wolves fan so take it for what it's worth, but here's what you got:

Cons:
-Doesn't know how to defend yet in a team concept and is/was too weak physically to fight through screens in a league that more or less has made the moving pick legal.
-Significant injury that once was a career killer but now is, more often than not, something an athlete can recover from.

Pros:
-Potentially elite shooter
-Elite, fluid athlete with a top 5 first step and excellent handle. He's not just bouncy, he's fast as hell with or without the ball and has a lot of wiggle to him.
-Natural born scorer
-Workaholic gym rat who adds major pieces every year to date. The time off appears to have added some upper body mass as well.

Is he the perfect prospect? No, of course not, but his upside, if you can get him healthy and develop him, is immense. He can be a 28+ ppg scorer and true #1 option. From a pure box checking standpoint, he's super high end.

[Chi]

You don't trade Butler for Dunn and Markkanen. That's why they held firm on wanting LaVine and in the end we had to throw in the 16th pick to make it happen.

He's a 22 year old ascending talent. You can listen to things being said about the kid by people that know far more about basketball than I do and they believe his arrow is firmly pointing upwards.

Here's what I know: he's gotten better every single year he has been in the league, he is going to be our #1/best player on our roster, and he's a good-natured kid that has a ferocious work ethic. I like my odds.

It's truly fascinating to me how Bulls fans of all people can be so buoyant about a prospect after he's had an ACL injury, as if we didn't go through the Derrick Rose experience.

You can list out all the pros as to why LaVine will be good, but not mentioning or taking into account his injury seems a little disingenuous. It's a huge red flag.

As for his defense... if Doug freaking McDermott had a +0.8 DWS last season, I'm not worried about what LaVine will be able to do. Different system/approach than what Thibs wants done.

If you're using Doug McDermott having a +DWS as your example, it's probably not a great example...

D Rose is an anomaly...

[kulaz3000]

You don't trade Butler for Dunn and Markkanen. That's why they held firm on wanting LaVine and in the end we had to throw in the 16th pick to make it happen.

He's a 22 year old ascending talent. You can listen to things being said about the kid by people that know far more about basketball than I do and they believe his arrow is firmly pointing upwards.

Here's what I know: he's gotten better every single year he has been in the league, he is going to be our #1/best player on our roster, and he's a good-natured kid that has a ferocious work ethic. I like my odds.

As for his defense... if Doug freaking McDermott had a +0.8 DWS last season, I'm not worried about what LaVine will be able to do. Different system/approach than what Thibs wants done.

I'm a Wolves fan so take it for what it's worth, but here's what you got:

Cons:
-Doesn't know how to defend yet in a team concept and is/was too weak physically to fight through screens in a league that more or less has made the moving pick legal.
-Significant injury that once was a career killer but now is, more often than not, something an athlete can recover from.

Pros:
-Potentially elite shooter
-Elite, fluid athlete with a top 5 first step and excellent handle. He's not just bouncy, he's fast as hell with or without the ball and has a lot of wiggle to him.
-Natural born scorer
-Workaholic gym rat who adds major pieces every year to date. The time off appears to have added some upper body mass as well.

Is he the perfect prospect? No, of course not, but his upside, if you can get him healthy and develop him, is immense. He can be a 28+ ppg scorer and true #1 option. From a pure box checking standpoint, he's super high end.

[WindyCityBorn]

You don't trade Butler for Dunn and Markkanen. That's why they held firm on wanting LaVine and in the end we had to throw in the 16th pick to make it happen.

He's a 22 year old ascending talent. You can listen to things being said about the kid by people that know far more about basketball than I do and they believe his arrow is firmly pointing upwards.

Here's what I know: he's gotten better every single year he has been in the league, he is going to be our #1/best player on our roster, and he's a good-natured kid that has a ferocious work ethic. I like my odds.

It's truly fascinating to me how Bulls fans of all people can be so buoyant about a prospect after he's had an ACL injury, as if we didn't go through the Derrick Rose experience.

You can list out all the pros as to why LaVine will be good, but not mentioning or taking into account his injury seems a little disingenuous. It's a huge red flag.

As for his defense... if Doug freaking McDermott had a +0.8 DWS last season, I'm not worried about what LaVine will be able to do. Different system/approach than what Thibs wants done.

If you're using Doug McDermott having a +DWS as your example, it's probably not a great example...

Derrick was a special case. I have seen plenty of guys recover from ACL injury and not lose much at all.

I guess the Rams were stupid when they used a top 10 pick on Toddy gurley less than 9 months after he tore his ACL?

I would even say Rose's ACL tear wasn't a killer. He still had his athleticism until the meniscus tear. His knees and body were just injury prone period.

[kingkirk]

I mean, you guys can rationalise an ACL injury all you like. Some definitely come back just as good, others don't. It's a case by case situation. Hopefully LaVine rediscovers his form, but until he does, I think people should be holstering their hopes on LaVine until he shows us how well his body has recovered and if he can stay away from out injuries that may be caused down the line because of the knee injury.

He could turn out to be a great player. He could also go down the Jabari Parker route and sustain another huge injury. All I'm saying is let's wait and see before banking on the Bulls having some 24 PPG scorer locked in at SG for the next 8-10 seasons.

[MrFortune3]

I mean, you guys can rationalise an ACL injury all you like. Some definitely come back just as good, others don't. It's a case by case situation. Hopefully LaVine rediscovers his form, but until he does, I think people should be holstering their hopes on LaVine until he shows us how well his body has recovered and if he can stay away from out injuries that may be caused down the line because of the knee injury.

He could turn out to be a great player. He could also go down the Jabari Parker route and sustain another huge injury. All I'm saying is let's wait and see before banking on the Bulls having some 24 PPG scorer locked in at SG for the next 8-10 seasons.

Only 10? I had him down as the greatest SG in Bulls history

[WindyCityBorn]

I mean, you guys can rationalise an ACL injury all you like. Some definitely come back just as good, others don't. It's a case by case situation. Hopefully LaVine rediscovers his form, but until he does, I think people should be holstering their hopes on LaVine until he shows us how well his body has recovered and if he can stay away from out injuries that may be caused down the line because of the knee injury.

He could turn out to be a great player. He could also go down the Jabari Parker route and sustain another huge injury. All I'm saying is let's wait and see before banking on the Bulls having some 24 PPG scorer locked in at SG for the next 8-10 seasons.

It looks like we may get an entire season to evualate him, but I get the impression that isn't good enough for you. You are kind of reacting like he has already been handed a max deal because the Bulls have confirmed my belief that he is viewed as integral part of the future. As he should be.

[DroseReturnChi]

I mean, you guys can rationalise an ACL injury all you like. Some definitely come back just as good, others don't. It's a case by case situation. Hopefully LaVine rediscovers his form, but until he does, I think people should be holstering their hopes on LaVine until he shows us how well his body has recovered and if he can stay away from out injuries that may be caused down the line because of the knee injury.

He could turn out to be a great player. He could also go down the Jabari Parker route and sustain another huge injury. All I'm saying is let's wait and see before banking on the Bulls having some 24 PPG scorer locked in at SG for the next 8-10 seasons.

so what's the point to be down on lavine? derrick was more of a more mental issue and he was a mvp so there were high expectations.
derricks has one of those body types where he needs to long periods of rest to make his explosiveness come back while lavine does not. lavine already dunking kinda proves my point that he's one of the fastest healers. as long as he doesnt have repeat acl injuries, it's all fine.

[DroseReturnChi]

Not sure what your definition of "Budding" star is...

But Lavine fits mine...

I don't think it's the definition of 'budding' that is in question. 'Star' is what I'm questioning. I'm not even convinced he can be a top 40-50 player let alone a star.

your kind of missing the point. if he was a star, why would Minn ever trade Lavine? We should be fortunate Thibs is gifting Lavine in the first place for a injury prone supermax player. I am questioning why he cannot be a 40-50 player when Rose asked the same question "why can i not be MVP?" He has all the tools to succeed and I dont think the injury took away anything from him.
If a inferior product like Butler can be all-star starter, it would be foolish to give up on Lavine when he is the same gym rat as Butler and have similar work ethics.

[WindyCityBorn]

Not sure what your definition of "Budding" star is...

But Lavine fits mine...

I don't think it's the definition of 'budding' that is in question. 'Star' is what I'm questioning. I'm not even convinced he can be a top 40-50 player let alone a star.

your kind of missing the point. if he was a star, why would Minn ever trade Lavine? We should be fortunate Thibs is gifting Lavine in the first place for a injury prone supermax player. I am questioning why he cannot be a 40-50 player when Rose asked the same question "why can i not be MVP?" He has all the tools to succeed and I dont think the injury took away anything from him.
If a inferior product like Butler can be all-star starter, it would be foolish to give up on Lavine when he is the same gym rat as Butler and have similar work ethics.

Yes. Lavine has the natural physical talent and the work ethic to be a star. Just look at his outside shooting for proof. When he came into the NBA that was a huge question mark and he has already turned it into a strength. And he wasn't just taking wide open look that average shooters rely on. He runs off screens like Reggie Miller or Ray Allen and he can shoot the three off the dribble. I have no doubt he will work to become at least a respectable defender as well.

Offensively he is the most well rounded talent we have had since Jordan. That doesn't man he is better than Rose at his peak or Butler right now, but be has the tools to be and has shown progress yearly.

[PharmD]

Browsing through this thread i saw lots of comparisons (Klay Thompson, Demar Derozen, James Harden, etc). Just think of Zach as a bigger, more athletic, much better shooting Devin Booker.

[Paxson43]

It's truly fascinating to me how Bulls fans of all people can be so buoyant about a prospect after he's had an ACL injury, as if we didn't go through the Derrick Rose experience.

Having a science background helps tremendously, if you're genuinely fascinated and not being facetious.

You can list out all the pros as to why LaVine will be good, but not mentioning or taking into account his injury seems a little disingenuous. It's a huge red flag.

Depends on quite a bit, you can make an uninformed blanket statement like that all you want. Look at his rehab, look at how far ahead of schedule he is, etc.

If you're using Doug McDermott having a +DWS as your example, it's probably not a great example...

It's not, but I think you're missing the point that he was not "hurting" the team even though he was a God-awful defender.

[Paxson43]

You don't trade Butler for Dunn and Markkanen. That's why they held firm on wanting LaVine and in the end we had to throw in the 16th pick to make it happen.

He's a 22 year old ascending talent. You can listen to things being said about the kid by people that know far more about basketball than I do and they believe his arrow is firmly pointing upwards.

Here's what I know: he's gotten better every single year he has been in the league, he is going to be our #1/best player on our roster, and he's a good-natured kid that has a ferocious work ethic. I like my odds.

As for his defense... if Doug freaking McDermott had a +0.8 DWS last season, I'm not worried about what LaVine will be able to do. Different system/approach than what Thibs wants done.

I'm a Wolves fan so take it for what it's worth, but here's what you got:

Cons:
-Doesn't know how to defend yet in a team concept and is/was too weak physically to fight through screens in a league that more or less has made the moving pick legal.
-Significant injury that once was a career killer but now is, more often than not, something an athlete can recover from.

Pros:
-Potentially elite shooter
-Elite, fluid athlete with a top 5 first step and excellent handle. He's not just bouncy, he's fast as hell with or without the ball and has a lot of wiggle to him.
-Natural born scorer
-Workaholic gym rat who adds major pieces every year to date. The time off appears to have added some upper body mass as well.

Is he the perfect prospect? No, of course not, but his upside, if you can get him healthy and develop him, is immense. He can be a 28+ ppg scorer and true #1 option. From a pure box checking standpoint, he's super high end.

Thanks for your unbiased opinion, bro. We have a ton of butt-hurt Butler fans here that are trying to **** on everything Bulls because he's gone. It's tiring, I appreciate your honesty.

[chrispatrick]

You don't trade Butler for Dunn and Markkanen. That's why they held firm on wanting LaVine and in the end we had to throw in the 16th pick to make it happen.

He's a 22 year old ascending talent. You can listen to things being said about the kid by people that know far more about basketball than I do and they believe his arrow is firmly pointing upwards.

Here's what I know: he's gotten better every single year he has been in the league, he is going to be our #1/best player on our roster, and he's a good-natured kid that has a ferocious work ethic. I like my odds.

As for his defense... if Doug freaking McDermott had a +0.8 DWS last season, I'm not worried about what LaVine will be able to do. Different system/approach than what Thibs wants done.

I'm a Wolves fan so take it for what it's worth, but here's what you got:

Cons:
-Doesn't know how to defend yet in a team concept and is/was too weak physically to fight through screens in a league that more or less has made the moving pick legal.
-Significant injury that once was a career killer but now is, more often than not, something an athlete can recover from.

Pros:
-Potentially elite shooter
-Elite, fluid athlete with a top 5 first step and excellent handle. He's not just bouncy, he's fast as hell with or without the ball and has a lot of wiggle to him.
-Natural born scorer
-Workaholic gym rat who adds major pieces every year to date. The time off appears to have added some upper body mass as well.

Is he the perfect prospect? No, of course not, but his upside, if you can get him healthy and develop him, is immense. He can be a 28+ ppg scorer and true #1 option. From a pure box checking standpoint, he's super high end.

Thanks for your unbiased opinion, bro. We have a ton of butt-hurt Butler fans here that are trying to **** on everything Bulls because he's gone. It's tiring, I appreciate your honesty.

People's evaluation of Butler has little to do with their evaluation of LaVine. LaVine's issues (that he will command a max-ish contract prior to proving himself as a statistical positive difference maker, that he's coming off injury, and that he's not really an asset if he's a free agent who you could have thrown money at next year without trading for him) have nothing to do with Butler