RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Homer38]

Yea and pretty sure the Bulls swept them the next season before beating Seattle in the finals. Pretty sure the Bulls went 72-10 the next season too. How did the finals turn out for the Magic in 95?

The Bulls added Rodman which was a huge reason for their win vs Seattle in game 2 and 6(He had like 10 offensive rebounds in both of those game I believe)....Also against Orlando, Grant was injured in game 1 and the magic had no one to replace him...One team adds Rodman and the other loses Grant and that makes a major difference

Are you even taking into account the headcase Rodman was? While he was one of my favorite players he was also a negative as much as he was a positive. Plenty of people downplaying the greatness of Jordan in this thread.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Phil Jackson deserve more credit for the Rodman situation...Jackson has always been great to control the huge ego....Just look with the lakers with the Kobe-Shaq situation.Rodman was great for the Bulls

[Bergmaniac]

Jordan fanboys are some of the most easily bated people in the world, every thread which is blatant bait like this one gets plenty of replies.

[EmpireFalls]

That’s because his APG totals have been cooked for his entire career. He’s credited with 2-3 phantom assists almost every game. His career average should be closer to 5 APG instead of 7+. Lebron would get credited for an assist if he inbounded the ball to a teammate who sank a full court heave two seconds before the halftime buzzer.

yea of course and same goes for his rings, phantom championships that he just gets given. In reality jordan won all these and hes still winning every ring to this day. idk why these other dumb fans dont see it.right?

If we're being honest, Lebron choked away one ring and absolutely 2 rings if not for Ray Allen and Chris Bosh's rebound/3 to save the series from immediate loss.

Kobe and Jordan never put their teams in that position.

Kobe’s 04 series comes to mind

[MavsDirk41]

im pretty sure MAgic handed their asses to them with JORDAN.

Yea and pretty sure the Bulls swept them the next season before beating Seattle in the finals. Pretty sure the Bulls went 72-10 the next season too. How did the finals turn out for the Magic in 95?

The Bulls added Rodman which was a huge reason for their win vs Seattle in game 2 and 6(He had like 10 offensive rebounds in both of those game I believe)....Also against Orlando, Grant was injured in game 1 and the magic had no one to replace him...One team adds Rodman and the other loses Grant and that makes a major difference

Im gonna reply to two of your post: yes, Rodman was absolutely essential to the Bulls success in the playoffs against Orlando and the finals against Seattle. In fact, Rodman was essential in them winning the championship in 96,97, and 98. And yes Grant was injured. Let me ask you this, name a top 10 player of all time who won a championship without help….ill wait

Secondly, Jordan, Jackson, Pippen, and Jackson’s staff were the reasons for Rodman’s success in Chicago. Did Jordan play any role in bringing out the best in Rodman from 95/96 to 97/98? Im gonna say yes. I know it pains you to give the guy any credit whatsoever though. It was a joint effort im sure.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Olajuwon? Dude had 9 first round playoff exits in his career, 1 missed playoffs in his prime and got swept 4X. He couldn't make an All-NBA first team during the ages of 27, 28 or 29, couldn’t win an MVP or ring before age 30 and was in trade talks with Boston for Reggie Lewis. Brad Daugherty made the All-NBA Third team over him for Christ’s sake. He was a selfish head-case that faked injuries while missing the playoffs in his prime due to a contract dispute (while the doctors said there was nothing wrong him, BTW) He threw his teammates and coaches under the bus, cried during the ‘96 Olympics 'cause he wasn't getting touches and only won when Jordan was retired and the three-point line was shortened for his shooters during the most talent-starved period in NBA history since the merger. Get real.

Only won when Jordan retired? How could one claim jordan was retired when Hakeem was winning a title when there's footage of him falling flat on his face at mid court via a nick Anderson lynching as Orlando tossed he and Chicago outta the playoffs?

You know the same Orlando team Hakeem and Houston swept? Jordan retired to do what he mostly did vs Hakeem bat under .500 strike out and lose.

Couldn't get out the first round? How many of those times was he under .500 like Jordan's losing ballhogging self twice was?

When overrated MJ was forced to carry the load Hakeem was most of his prime, he had the Bulls headed nowhere fast.

Imagine having the NBAs leading rebounder alongside you and still finishing under.500 like what happened with one of Jordans Bulls?

Hakeem would never.

This is a very disingenuous post.

First, in 1995 the Bulls had a terrible record before Jordan joined. The games played with a rusty out of bball shape Jordan was like 13-4 as mentioned (forgot the exact record but way better)
Next, they went 72-10 the following season.

Finally, if you had watched those games vividly as a Bulls fan, you'd remember how much of a liability Dennis Rodman was on offense. Commentators would even say "A bit of a black hole on offense. You can't really pass it to him unless he's near the net." and things of that sort, so stating "Can't win without the greatest rebounder of all time" is a wild take.

Rodman is a phenomenal athlete and talent, but he was still a role player, with a very specific role; awesome rebounding and defense.

Next, just take a look at the Bulls records for all of those championship years.
72 wins, 69 wins, 62 wins.

All championships. Pretty good, isn't it?

So go ahead and name your favorite player and then provide evidence why Jordan is overrated to that player. I'm willing to bat as well. Usually, when a poster tries to state he's overrated, they end up coming up with excuses instead of facts because they are just upset at Jordan being commonly known as the GOAT.

Ask yourself if that's you or if there's evidence to him being overrated, because I'll tell you right now, he was a hell of a lot more skilled and fundamental than anyone in the league now.

And if you're trying to use 95' Jordan 20 games new into the league after a 2 year hiatus, or Jordan with cocaine addicts and no support "didn't make finals once!" arguments, then you really have nothing.

For the record, Hakeem is one of my favorite players, my choice for GOAT defender and is a top 7 all time great.

Lol "disingenuous" is claiming the 94-95 Bulls MJ returned to were a terrible team. Chicago was 34-31 and the 6th seed in the East. TItle contenders no....but playoffs yes. Thats hardly terrible. MJ spends 1 1/2 years away and they still keep afloat, even after losing their 3rd best player to Orlando.

"Terrible" is a 7-27 over a 5 year stretch in games Hakeem missed from 91-92 to 95-96. Funny how this joke account "Err" Jordan (lol) derides him for missing the playoffs for missing 12 games where they went 2-10. Generally considered the best years of his career contenders and champions when he played. Without him arguably the worst team in the NBA

Rodman? He only had 1 season of his career with double digits scoring, nobody he played for ever looked for that from him to begin with. Hoe anyone can claim he was a liability on offense is beyond me, especially considering part of offense is offensive rebounding which he was arguably GOAT at.

He had 2x titles, DPOY, rebounding titles before Chicago. For all his issues he was nowhere near the headcase Vernon Maxwell was.

What's overrated is such a statement by you

And more than Hakeem, Lebron, or anyone you mentioned, Jordan held the teammates accountable,
holding them to a very high standard and turning practices into wars, which made games easy-
this has been said by multiple players, from Scottie to BJ, Grant etc

Especially regarding Hakeem of all prople! He had even more cocaine addicts than Jordan did in Chicago during the same time frame, yet managed to lead his team within 2 games of a NBA title.

I see 0 reason to believe MJ is holding someone like Vernon to any sort of standard in Hakeem's shoes. Phil Jackson coached chicago to a winning record for 1 1/2 years without MJ, then went to another team and won 5 more titles.

Hakeems coach Rudy T was brought in to replace Phil and couldnt even last the entire season.

[JackZZ]

Punching Kerr
Rodman was best rebounder and 2x champ before
Best Europe player before
Best Australian player before

I assumed you are referring to Luc Longley. Luc Longley was never the best Oz player in the mid80s-90s.
Best Oz player in the mid80s-90s was Andrew Gaze. He joined Spurs briefly near the end of his career in the late 90s. Yes, he got a ring with the Spurs.
A lot of ppl tend to overrate Longley a lot and speak highly of him. The whole he had to sacrifice his personal stats playing for the Bulls thing was nonsense. You go look at his international and NBA pre+post Bulls stats. Dude was max 10ppg-ish and 5rpg-ish big man through and through. He had good stats in college, that's all.

[Homer38]

Yea and pretty sure the Bulls swept them the next season before beating Seattle in the finals. Pretty sure the Bulls went 72-10 the next season too. How did the finals turn out for the Magic in 95?

The Bulls added Rodman which was a huge reason for their win vs Seattle in game 2 and 6(He had like 10 offensive rebounds in both of those game I believe)....Also against Orlando, Grant was injured in game 1 and the magic had no one to replace him...One team adds Rodman and the other loses Grant and that makes a major difference

Im gonna reply to two of your post: yes, Rodman was absolutely essential to the Bulls success in the playoffs against Orlando and the finals against Seattle. In fact, Rodman was essential in them winning the championship in 96,97, and 98. And yes Grant was injured. Let me ask you this, name a top 10 player of all time who won a championship without help….ill wait

Secondly, Jordan, Jackson, Pippen, and Jackson’s staff were the reasons for Rodman’s success in Chicago. Did Jordan play any role in bringing out the best in Rodman from 95/96 to 97/98? Im gonna say yes. I know it pains you to give the guy any credit whatsoever though. It was a joint effort im sure.

I agree with you that Jordan deserve some credit for Rodman(this is just that Jordan was not alone for that) and that no player can win without help or little help....But I don't want to mention him but I have no choice,this is when LBJ has help,this is a big problem for you....Like I said the other time,this is much better to have a good front office early in your career because if we look at NBA history, unless you go to an established champion team like the Warriors, that path has much less success as we have seen with the Nets, Clippers and Suns in the last 5 years.

[bledredwine]

If you're still doubting MJ, here's something that should shock you. In the span of 32 months, Michael Jordan won 3 finals championships, 3 finals MVPs, 3 scoring titles, 2 NBA MVP's, named all-defensive 1st team 3 times and missed 0 games. Nobody in the history of the NBA has come close to doing that and I dare you to look.

To: anyone reading

[bledredwine]

Only won when Jordan retired? How could one claim jordan was retired when Hakeem was winning a title when there's footage of him falling flat on his face at mid court via a nick Anderson lynching as Orlando tossed he and Chicago outta the playoffs?

You know the same Orlando team Hakeem and Houston swept? Jordan retired to do what he mostly did vs Hakeem bat under .500 strike out and lose.

Couldn't get out the first round? How many of those times was he under .500 like Jordan's losing ballhogging self twice was?

When overrated MJ was forced to carry the load Hakeem was most of his prime, he had the Bulls headed nowhere fast.

Imagine having the NBAs leading rebounder alongside you and still finishing under.500 like what happened with one of Jordans Bulls?

Hakeem would never.

This is a very disingenuous post.

First, in 1995 the Bulls had a terrible record before Jordan joined. The games played with a rusty out of bball shape Jordan was like 13-4 as mentioned (forgot the exact record but way better)
Next, they went 72-10 the following season.

Finally, if you had watched those games vividly as a Bulls fan, you'd remember how much of a liability Dennis Rodman was on offense. Commentators would even say "A bit of a black hole on offense. You can't really pass it to him unless he's near the net." and things of that sort, so stating "Can't win without the greatest rebounder of all time" is a wild take.

Rodman is a phenomenal athlete and talent, but he was still a role player, with a very specific role; awesome rebounding and defense.

Next, just take a look at the Bulls records for all of those championship years.
72 wins, 69 wins, 62 wins.

All championships. Pretty good, isn't it?

So go ahead and name your favorite player and then provide evidence why Jordan is overrated to that player. I'm willing to bat as well. Usually, when a poster tries to state he's overrated, they end up coming up with excuses instead of facts because they are just upset at Jordan being commonly known as the GOAT.

Ask yourself if that's you or if there's evidence to him being overrated, because I'll tell you right now, he was a hell of a lot more skilled and fundamental than anyone in the league now.

And if you're trying to use 95' Jordan 20 games new into the league after a 2 year hiatus, or Jordan with cocaine addicts and no support "didn't make finals once!" arguments, then you really have nothing.

For the record, Hakeem is one of my favorite players, my choice for GOAT defender and is a top 7 all time great.

Lol "disingenuous" is claiming the 94-95 Bulls MJ returned to were a terrible team. Chicago was 34-31 and the 6th seed in the East. TItle contenders no....but playoffs yes. Thats hardly terrible. MJ spends 1 1/2 years away and they still keep afloat, even after losing their 3rd best player to Orlando.

"Terrible" is a 7-27 over a 5 year stretch in games Hakeem missed from 91-92 to 95-96. Funny how this joke account "Err" Jordan (lol) derides him for missing the playoffs for missing 12 games where they went 2-10. Generally considered the best years of his career contenders and champions when he played. Without him arguably the worst team in the NBA

Rodman? He only had 1 season of his career with double digits scoring, nobody he played for ever looked for that from him to begin with. Hoe anyone can claim he was a liability on offense is beyond me, especially considering part of offense is offensive rebounding which he was arguably GOAT at.

He had 2x titles, DPOY, rebounding titles before Chicago. For all his issues he was nowhere near the headcase Vernon Maxwell was.

What's overrated is such a statement by you

And more than Hakeem, Lebron, or anyone you mentioned, Jordan held the teammates accountable,
holding them to a very high standard and turning practices into wars, which made games easy-
this has been said by multiple players, from Scottie to BJ, Grant etc

Especially regarding Hakeem of all prople! He had even more cocaine addicts than Jordan did in Chicago during the same time frame, yet managed to lead his team within 2 games of a NBA title.

I see 0 reason to believe MJ is holding someone like Vernon to any sort of standard in Hakeem's shoes. Phil Jackson coached chicago to a winning record for 1 1/2 years without MJ, then went to another team and won 5 more titles.

Hakeems coach Rudy T was brought in to replace Phil and couldnt even last the entire season.

You're the one who said how could MJ not take his team to a better record in 1995 after going 13-4 with them
Did you really think that we wouldn't spot that?

And yeah, the 94-95 Bulls were not doing well as they were barely above .500. Would you not agree with this fact?

As for some other fun facts about winning and Jordan's return that you should know,

1995/96 season
MJ = 5-0 without Pippen
MJ = 15-3 without Rodman

1996 ECSF vs Knicks
- Pippen gets shut down to 33% FG by Anthony Mason for the series
- Besides Rodman, all of Jordan's starting teammates shot 37% or worse
- Jordan averages 36-5-4-2 on 44% to carry the Bulls and win 4-1

1996 ECF vs Magic
- One of the rare times that Pippen guards a star player more often than Jordan
- Pippen shuts down Penny in Game 2
- Then Pippen has problems guarding Penny in Game 3, and needs Jordan to switch in order to stop him
- Penny has 0 pts, 0/3 FG, 0 assists, and 1 turnover when Jordan guards him, and the Bulls go up 3-0 and eventually sweep
- Jordan also did a better job on Penny in Game 1 and Game 4.

1996 Finals vs Sonics
- Ron Harper is injured for Games 3-4-5, only plays 1 minute apiece in Game 3 and 5
- Then Jordan, not Pippen, has to shut down the Sonics best player, Gary Payton, in Game 3
- Payton only scored 2 FG on Jordan (the rest on Randy Brown, or after Jordan sits out the end of the 4th quarter)
- With MJ on Payton, the entire Sonics offense goes stagnant, only 16 pts in the first qtr from which they never come back being down 34-16 after 1 qtr
- In that Game 3, Pippen was outscored by Detlef Schrempf's 20 points on 47% to Pippen's 12 points on 36%
- and the Bulls go up 3-0 thanks to Jordan, not Pippen, shutting down the best player, and go on to win in 6
- Jordan also locked down Payton in Game 5
- but Pippen's poor 5-20 (25%) FG loses the game.

Pippen's defense? Pippen was outscored by Detlef Schrempf in the 1996 Finals, and Pippen shot a very poor 34% FG while Jordan and Rodman did the majority of the work.

all courtesy of http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2014/09/section-8-myth-that-jordan-was-not-as.html for people like you who create false narratives.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

You're the one who said how could MJ not take his team to a better record in 1995 after going 13-4 with them
Did you really think that we wouldn't spot that?

And yeah, the 94-95 Bulls were not doing well as they were barely above .500. Would you not agree with this fact?

As for some other fun facts about winning and Jordan's return that you should know,

1995/96 season
MJ = 5-0 without Pippen
MJ = 15-3 without Rodman

1996 ECSF vs Knicks
- Pippen gets shut down to 33% FG by Anthony Mason for the series
- Besides Rodman, all of Jordan's starting teammates shot 37% or worse
- Jordan averages 36-5-4-2 on 44% to carry the Bulls and win 4-1

1996 ECF vs Magic
- One of the rare times that Pippen guards a star player more often than Jordan
- Pippen shuts down Penny in Game 2
- Then Pippen has problems guarding Penny in Game 3, and needs Jordan to switch in order to stop him
- Penny has 0 pts, 0/3 FG, 0 assists, and 1 turnover when Jordan guards him, and the Bulls go up 3-0 and eventually sweep
- Jordan also did a better job on Penny in Game 1 and Game 4.

1996 Finals vs Sonics
- Ron Harper is injured for Games 3-4-5, only plays 1 minute apiece in Game 3 and 5
- Then Jordan, not Pippen, has to shut down the Sonics best player, Gary Payton, in Game 3
- Payton only scored 2 FG on Jordan (the rest on Randy Brown, or after Jordan sits out the end of the 4th quarter)
- With MJ on Payton, the entire Sonics offense goes stagnant, only 16 pts in the first qtr from which they never come back being down 34-16 after 1 qtr
- In that Game 3, Pippen was outscored by Detlef Schrempf's 20 points on 47% to Pippen's 12 points on 36%
- and the Bulls go up 3-0 thanks to Jordan, not Pippen, shutting down the best player, and go on to win in 6
- Jordan also locked down Payton in Game 5
- but Pippen's poor 5-20 (25%) FG loses the game.

Pippen's defense? Pippen was outscored by Detlef Schrempf in the 1996 Finals, and Pippen shot a very poor 34% FG while Jordan and Rodman did the majority of the work.

all courtesy of http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2014/09/section-8-myth-that-jordan-was-not-as.html for people like you who create false narratives.

You're just making up something outta nowhere. Re: Jordan in 95 vs Orlando...the OP I responded to said Hakeem could only win with MJ retired

I'm sorry 34-31 without Jordan was nowhere close to the terrible the Rockets being 7-27 over a 5 year stretch without Olajuwon. Hakeem never had a all nba defensive teammate his entire Rockets career and still

Lol I don't know why on earth you bring up the Knicks for? They could never score and only had 1 great player. They weren't a threat to beat Chicago at all in 95-96. Reggie roasted these guys in the playoffs.....Hakeem legit carried Houston past them in the Finals when they outplayed his teammates in the series while he outplay their best player by a large margin h2h. But Jordan "carried" the Bulls. Since you're fixated %s how about you talk of Jordan shooting only 40% for the 93 series vs them and them being down 0-2 at one point with Pippen shooting over 50% for the series. He was rusty that year too huh?

Yes add how banged up and injured Orlando was in the 95-96 series since you and others sulk about how "rusty" MJ was the year before. Oh yeah no tears shed for them. Even the offensive liability Dennis averaged double figures in scoring.

Lol then Seattle. Pippen led Jordan in rebounds, blocks, assists & steals in the series. Well excuse me if he didn't shoot so great....neither did MJ himself. I think Pippen more than made up for it in other facets.

I love how you addressed 0 of what was posted about Hakeem when you claim jordan elevated his teammates more than he did. When he had to carry the statistical load Hakeem had to for most of his prime, the Bulls were a middling team.

[bledredwine]

You're the one who said how could MJ not take his team to a better record in 1995 after going 13-4 with them
Did you really think that we wouldn't spot that?

And yeah, the 94-95 Bulls were not doing well as they were barely above .500. Would you not agree with this fact?

As for some other fun facts about winning and Jordan's return that you should know,

1995/96 season
MJ = 5-0 without Pippen
MJ = 15-3 without Rodman

1996 ECSF vs Knicks
- Pippen gets shut down to 33% FG by Anthony Mason for the series
- Besides Rodman, all of Jordan's starting teammates shot 37% or worse
- Jordan averages 36-5-4-2 on 44% to carry the Bulls and win 4-1

1996 ECF vs Magic
- One of the rare times that Pippen guards a star player more often than Jordan
- Pippen shuts down Penny in Game 2
- Then Pippen has problems guarding Penny in Game 3, and needs Jordan to switch in order to stop him
- Penny has 0 pts, 0/3 FG, 0 assists, and 1 turnover when Jordan guards him, and the Bulls go up 3-0 and eventually sweep
- Jordan also did a better job on Penny in Game 1 and Game 4.

1996 Finals vs Sonics
- Ron Harper is injured for Games 3-4-5, only plays 1 minute apiece in Game 3 and 5
- Then Jordan, not Pippen, has to shut down the Sonics best player, Gary Payton, in Game 3
- Payton only scored 2 FG on Jordan (the rest on Randy Brown, or after Jordan sits out the end of the 4th quarter)
- With MJ on Payton, the entire Sonics offense goes stagnant, only 16 pts in the first qtr from which they never come back being down 34-16 after 1 qtr
- In that Game 3, Pippen was outscored by Detlef Schrempf's 20 points on 47% to Pippen's 12 points on 36%
- and the Bulls go up 3-0 thanks to Jordan, not Pippen, shutting down the best player, and go on to win in 6
- Jordan also locked down Payton in Game 5
- but Pippen's poor 5-20 (25%) FG loses the game.

Pippen's defense? Pippen was outscored by Detlef Schrempf in the 1996 Finals, and Pippen shot a very poor 34% FG while Jordan and Rodman did the majority of the work.

all courtesy of http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2014/09/section-8-myth-that-jordan-was-not-as.html for people like you who create false narratives.

You're just making up something outta nowhere. Re: Jordan in 95 vs Orlando...the OP I responded to said Hakeem could only win with MJ retired

I'm sorry 34-31 without Jordan was nowhere close to the terrible the Rockets being 7-27 over a 5 year stretch without Olajuwon. Hakeem never had a all nba defensive teammate his entire Rockets career and still

Lol I don't know why on earth you bring up the Knicks for? They could never score and only had 1 great player. They weren't a threat to beat Chicago at all in 95-96. Reggie roasted these guys in the playoffs.....Hakeem legit carried Houston past them in the Finals when they outplayed his teammates in the series while he outplay their best player by a large margin h2h. But Jordan "carried" the Bulls. Since you're fixated %s how about you talk of Jordan shooting only 40% for the 93 series vs them and them being down 0-2 at one point with Pippen shooting over 50% for the series. He was rusty that year too huh?

Yes add how banged up and injured Orlando was in the 95-96 series since you and others sulk about how "rusty" MJ was the year before. Oh yeah no tears shed for them. Even the offensive liability Dennis averaged double figures in scoring.

Lol then Seattle. Pippen led Jordan in rebounds, blocks, assists & steals in the series. Well excuse me if he didn't shoot so great....neither did MJ himself. I think Pippen more than made up for it in other facets.

I love how you addressed 0 of what was posted about Hakeem when you claim jordan elevated his teammates more than he did. When he had to carry the statistical load Hakeem had to for most of his prime, the Bulls were a middling team.

Once again, you're providing stats in a false way to make it look how you want. "Scottie led in assists, rebounds, steals!"

Now you've shown me that you're merely living by stats and didn't really watch (or remember) the Sonics finals. Let me break it down for you.

First, context:
Scottie literally had the point guard role and Jordan played off ball. How many off ball players can you name who lead their team in assists with 5 or more?
As Scottie said himself, Jordan would have had the triple double type of numbers but he took that role from him. And despite playing point, Scottie only had one more assist per game in those finals, context matters

Jordan was not only the better player than Scottie in that finals, he was the far far better player.

In 1996, Jordan had not far from double Scottie's points per game and not to mention with those points, Scottie was .343 from the floor, and Scottie's scoring was much needed. A couple of rebounds and an assist per game won't fix that lack of showing up on the offensive end. You can go ahead and watch.

Of course Hakeem had the taller order. Everyone knows that, but that doesn't mean that he was a better ceiling raiser than Jordan. 2 3-peats - you can't argue with that.

It's hilarious how some of you downplay 3-peats, but how many players have done it once? Exactly.

And you can quit with the BS argument that Jordan wasn't rusty. He was clearly rusty and Grover himself was encouraging Jordan not to return yet because he was "in baseball and not basketball shape".

Even despite this, the Bulls went 13-4 with him and he was the best player on the court during the Orlando series, despite the late game mishap. That's literally the only blemish on Jordan. Everything else on this forum is a load of excuses and garbage; "3 point shot!", "didn't win early!" when everyone knows full well that Jordan didn't want the 3 pointer to be a part of his game, hit deep midrange fadeaway efficiently, and had a squad of tanking trash at the beginning of his career.



and of course, regarding the 96 finals, to refresh your memory, what was written earlier:
- Ron Harper is injured for Games 3-4-5, only plays 1 minute apiece in Game 3 and 5
- Then Jordan, not Pippen, has to shut down the Sonics best player, Gary Payton, in Game 3
- Payton only scored 2 FG on Jordan (the rest on Randy Brown, or after Jordan sits out the end of the 4th quarter)
- With MJ on Payton, the entire Sonics offense goes stagnant, only 16 pts in the first qtr from which they never come back being down 34-16 after 1 qtr
- In that Game 3, Pippen was outscored by Detlef Schrempf's 20 points on 47% to Pippen's 12 points on 36%
- and the Bulls go up 3-0 thanks to Jordan, not Pippen, shutting down the best player, and go on to win in 6
- Jordan also locked down Payton in Game 5
- but Pippen's poor 5-20 (25%) FG loses the game.


No, Scottie wasn't nearly as good as Jordan that finals. And if we want to go into stats, since you seem to like triple doubles from off-ball players (which doesn't exist, by the way), we can look at Jordan's 1991 finals when he played off ball and still averaged 32 and 11.4, the third highest assists of all time in a finals to only Russell (33%'ish more possessions btw) and Magic.

[bledredwine]

Only won when Jordan retired? How could one claim jordan was retired when Hakeem was winning a title when there's footage of him falling flat on his face at mid court via a nick Anderson lynching as Orlando tossed he and Chicago outta the playoffs?

You know the same Orlando team Hakeem and Houston swept? Jordan retired to do what he mostly did vs Hakeem bat under .500 strike out and lose.

Couldn't get out the first round? How many of those times was he under .500 like Jordan's losing ballhogging self twice was?

When overrated MJ was forced to carry the load Hakeem was most of his prime, he had the Bulls headed nowhere fast.

Imagine having the NBAs leading rebounder alongside you and still finishing under.500 like what happened with one of Jordans Bulls?

Hakeem would never.

This is a very disingenuous post.

First, in 1995 the Bulls had a terrible record before Jordan joined. The games played with a rusty out of bball shape Jordan was like 13-4 as mentioned (forgot the exact record but way better)
Next, they went 72-10 the following season.

Finally, if you had watched those games vividly as a Bulls fan, you'd remember how much of a liability Dennis Rodman was on offense. Commentators would even say "A bit of a black hole on offense. You can't really pass it to him unless he's near the net." and things of that sort, so stating "Can't win without the greatest rebounder of all time" is a wild take.

Rodman is a phenomenal athlete and talent, but he was still a role player, with a very specific role; awesome rebounding and defense.

Next, just take a look at the Bulls records for all of those championship years.
72 wins, 69 wins, 62 wins.

All championships. Pretty good, isn't it?

So go ahead and name your favorite player and then provide evidence why Jordan is overrated to that player. I'm willing to bat as well. Usually, when a poster tries to state he's overrated, they end up coming up with excuses instead of facts because they are just upset at Jordan being commonly known as the GOAT.

Ask yourself if that's you or if there's evidence to him being overrated, because I'll tell you right now, he was a hell of a lot more skilled and fundamental than anyone in the league now.

And if you're trying to use 95' Jordan 20 games new into the league after a 2 year hiatus, or Jordan with cocaine addicts and no support "didn't make finals once!" arguments, then you really have nothing.

For the record, Hakeem is one of my favorite players, my choice for GOAT defender and is a top 7 all time great.

Lol "disingenuous" is claiming the 94-95 Bulls MJ returned to were a terrible team. Chicago was 34-31 and the 6th seed in the East. TItle contenders no....but playoffs yes. Thats hardly terrible. MJ spends 1 1/2 years away and they still keep afloat, even after losing their 3rd best player to Orlando.

"Terrible" is a 7-27 over a 5 year stretch in games Hakeem missed from 91-92 to 95-96. Funny how this joke account "Err" Jordan (lol) derides him for missing the playoffs for missing 12 games where they went 2-10. Generally considered the best years of his career contenders and champions when he played. Without him arguably the worst team in the NBA

Rodman? He only had 1 season of his career with double digits scoring, nobody he played for ever looked for that from him to begin with. Hoe anyone can claim he was a liability on offense is beyond me, especially considering part of offense is offensive rebounding which he was arguably GOAT at.

He had 2x titles, DPOY, rebounding titles before Chicago. For all his issues he was nowhere near the headcase Vernon Maxwell was.

What's overrated is such a statement by you

And more than Hakeem, Lebron, or anyone you mentioned, Jordan held the teammates accountable,
holding them to a very high standard and turning practices into wars, which made games easy-
this has been said by multiple players, from Scottie to BJ, Grant etc

Especially regarding Hakeem of all prople! He had even more cocaine addicts than Jordan did in Chicago during the same time frame, yet managed to lead his team within 2 games of a NBA title.

I see 0 reason to believe MJ is holding someone like Vernon to any sort of standard in Hakeem's shoes. Phil Jackson coached chicago to a winning record for 1 1/2 years without MJ, then went to another team and won 5 more titles.

Hakeems coach Rudy T was brought in to replace Phil and couldnt even last the entire season.

By the way, I was once curious what Hakeem thinks of Jordan and this popped up.

Watch on YouTube

[Iwasawitness]

This is a very disingenuous post.

First, in 1995 the Bulls had a terrible record before Jordan joined. The games played with a rusty out of bball shape Jordan was like 13-4 as mentioned (forgot the exact record but way better)
Next, they went 72-10 the following season.

How can you sit here, call his post disingenuous, and then the very first thing you say is that the Bulls had a terrible record before Jordan came back?

Their record was 34-31. That's above .500. That is not terrible by any stretch of the imagination. You wanna know what a terrible record is? Look at the Cavaliers and Heat when LeBron didn't play and there's your answer.

Finally, if you had watched those games vividly as a Bulls fan, you'd remember how much of a liability Dennis Rodman was on offense. Commentators would even say "A bit of a black hole on offense. You can't really pass it to him unless he's near the net." and things of that sort, so stating "Can't win without the greatest rebounder of all time" is a wild take.

They DON'T win without the greatest rebounder of all time. The Bulls needed Dennis Rodman just as much as he needed them to revive his career.

Rodman is a phenomenal athlete and talent, but he was still a role player, with a very specific role; awesome rebounding and defense.

A roleplayer that was so good at what he did that he actually got FMVP votes in 96. There were people who actually argued that he deserved FMVP that year. Now, granted, I myself don't agree with this nonsensical claim at all, but the fact that he was having that big of an impact on the game to the point where he was getting that kind of consideration says a lot about his contributions to the team.

Next, just take a look at the Bulls records for all of those championship years.
72 wins, 69 wins, 62 wins.

All championships. Pretty good, isn't it?

So go ahead and name your favorite player and then provide evidence why Jordan is overrated to that player. I'm willing to bat as well. Usually, when a poster tries to state he's overrated, they end up coming up with excuses instead of facts because they are just upset at Jordan being commonly known as the GOAT.

You mean like what you do all the time?

Ask yourself if that's you or if there's evidence to him being overrated, because I'll tell you right now, he was a hell of a lot more skilled and fundamental than anyone in the league now.

And if you're trying to use 95' Jordan 20 games new into the league after a 2 year hiatus, or Jordan with cocaine addicts and no support "didn't make finals once!" arguments, then you really have nothing.

No, those are definitely pretty valid points. 95 especially. People can point out "errr Jordan was rusty" all they want, but that didn't stop him from being able to put up big numbers. While there's definitely instances of him lacking the same awareness he normally had in the past (him practically handing the Magic game one on a silver platter doesn't happen in 93), for the most part he still dominated like he always did. Jordan himself admitted that the team needed more pieces. That's all there is to it.

[Rust_Cohle]

yea of course and same goes for his rings, phantom championships that he just gets given. In reality jordan won all these and hes still winning every ring to this day. idk why these other dumb fans dont see it.right?

If we're being honest, Lebron choked away one ring and absolutely 2 rings if not for Ray Allen and Chris Bosh's rebound/3 to save the series from immediate loss.

Kobe and Jordan never put their teams in that position.

Kobe’s 04 series comes to mind

Yeah, Kobe killed the Lakers in '04, ruining some amazing finals games from Shaq

[bledredwine]

This is a very disingenuous post.

First, in 1995 the Bulls had a terrible record before Jordan joined. The games played with a rusty out of bball shape Jordan was like 13-4 as mentioned (forgot the exact record but way better)
Next, they went 72-10 the following season.

How can you sit here, call his post disingenuous, and then the very first thing you say is that the Bulls had a terrible record before Jordan came back?

Their record was 34-31. That's above .500. That is not terrible by any stretch of the imagination. You wanna know what a terrible record is? Look at the Cavaliers and Heat when LeBron didn't play and there's your answer.

Finally, if you had watched those games vividly as a Bulls fan, you'd remember how much of a liability Dennis Rodman was on offense. Commentators would even say "A bit of a black hole on offense. You can't really pass it to him unless he's near the net." and things of that sort, so stating "Can't win without the greatest rebounder of all time" is a wild take.

They DON'T win without the greatest rebounder of all time. The Bulls needed Dennis Rodman just as much as he needed them to revive his career.

Rodman is a phenomenal athlete and talent, but he was still a role player, with a very specific role; awesome rebounding and defense.

A roleplayer that was so good at what he did that he actually got FMVP votes in 96. There were people who actually argued that he deserved FMVP that year. Now, granted, I myself don't agree with this nonsensical claim at all, but the fact that he was having that big of an impact on the game to the point where he was getting that kind of consideration says a lot about his contributions to the team.

Next, just take a look at the Bulls records for all of those championship years.
72 wins, 69 wins, 62 wins.

All championships. Pretty good, isn't it?

So go ahead and name your favorite player and then provide evidence why Jordan is overrated to that player. I'm willing to bat as well. Usually, when a poster tries to state he's overrated, they end up coming up with excuses instead of facts because they are just upset at Jordan being commonly known as the GOAT.

You mean like what you do all the time?

Ask yourself if that's you or if there's evidence to him being overrated, because I'll tell you right now, he was a hell of a lot more skilled and fundamental than anyone in the league now.

And if you're trying to use 95' Jordan 20 games new into the league after a 2 year hiatus, or Jordan with cocaine addicts and no support "didn't make finals once!" arguments, then you really have nothing.

No, those are definitely pretty valid points. 95 especially. People can point out "errr Jordan was rusty" all they want, but that didn't stop him from being able to put up big numbers. While there's definitely instances of him lacking the same awareness he normally had in the past (him practically handing the Magic game one on a silver platter doesn't happen in 93), for the most part he still dominated like he always did. Jordan himself admitted that the team needed more pieces. That's all there is to it.

Terrible wasn't the right word for 34-31. Fine - mediocre, but terrible compared to what Bulls fans were spoiled with
growing up.

And guess what? Compared to 13-4, it sure was terrible! So all you have is me using the word terrible instead of mediocre?
Okay.

However, Feng keeps creating stats that sound good to his liking but are actually farce, and fictional. For example, Jordan not being able to bring the Bulls to a great record in his rust season when he returned and took them to 13-4 after they were barely above 500?

Yeah, that's absolutely a statement that disguised to cover the truth, aka disengenuous.

And then for him to state that Pippen led the Bulls in four categories when he had a crap finals in 96 that I watched and rooted for with my own eyes, with stats now to show it? Yeah, also a basic manipulation that he purposefully created.

Now, how about providing stats for whatever you're trying to say? I like seeing truths and not cherry-picked stats in disguise that cover or try to patch up the truth.

When you have to create false narratives, they're going to be picked apart, and it shows that you don't have much of a discussion and are merely searching for stats that you can manipulate to serve your own argument

.... instead of stats that actually showed the correct way things went. Pippen had a poor series in 1996. All of us Bulls fans know this. You guys should see that too.

[Homer38]

If we're being honest, Lebron choked away one ring and absolutely 2 rings if not for Ray Allen and Chris Bosh's rebound/3 to save the series from immediate loss.

Kobe and Jordan never put their teams in that position.

Kobe’s 04 series comes to mind

Yeah, Kobe killed the Lakers in '04, ruining some amazing finals games from Shaq

The only thing Kobe needed to do in this finals was to gave the ball to Shaq!

[Nazrmohamed]

"making players better" is an grossly overrated concept

reserved for stars, "making players better" is more like alleviating the burden for them who can't carry it, and it doesn't really make them BETTER. it's like carrying the melons so they only have to carry the biscuit. i guess you could say some stars force teammates to reassess their game but on a grander scale you always hear about coaches putting their players "in position to,,,,,,"

and accountability is such a specious concept. all goats, by their play, make their teammates accountable. a player doesn't have to do it overtly or demonstrably.

only coaches have the ability to put their players IN POSITION to perform as close the ceiling as possible, and imho that's how good coaches find raw gems

if there was an inverse star to teammate performance ratio, i pick lonzo as the "least skilled" to teammate enabler. he made his teammates rethink their game

Exactly and I think MJ is the most overrated player when it comes to this. That's not to say he isn't the GOAT in my eyes but in that particular area I think people treat him like he was some player whisperer. The Bulls were great because he was great. Because Scottie was great and in an nba where you only needed two guys like that to win, you add some great complimentary players and that's what you get. Don't get me wrong, he demanded greatness, was tough but in reality dude was a bully who was great.

Guys I think make everyone better to me are Magic Johnson. There was never a player who defined a style of play and rallied others better than Magic and then right around there is Lebron. It's more inclusive but you know who the boss is.

And for the record. I'm not saying that MJ didn't make players better but if we're just gonna use the fact that he won the mist titles in recent history so give him every single designation then yall have fun with that. But jeez. Michael Jordan wasn't great at every single thing.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

First, context:
Scottie literally had the point guard role and Jordan played off ball. How many off ball players can you name who lead their team in assists with 5 or more?
As Scottie said himself, Jordan would have had the triple double type of numbers but he took that role from him. And despite playing point, Scottie only had one more assist per game in those finals, context matters

Jordan was not only the better player than Scottie in that finals, he was the far far better player.

In 1996, Jordan had not far from double Scottie's points per game and not to mention with those points, Scottie was .343 from the floor, and Scottie's scoring was much needed. A couple of rebounds and an assist per game won't fix that lack of showing up on the offensive end. You can go ahead and watch.

Of course Hakeem had the taller order. Everyone knows that, but that doesn't mean that he was a better ceiling raiser than Jordan. 2 3-peats - you can't argue with that.

It's hilarious how some of you downplay 3-peats, but how many players have done it once? Exactly.

And you can quit with the BS argument that Jordan wasn't rusty. He was clearly rusty and Grover himself was encouraging Jordan not to return yet because he was "in baseball and not basketball shape".

Even despite this, the Bulls went 13-4 with him and he was the best player on the court during the Orlando series, despite the late game mishap. That's literally the only blemish on Jordan. Everything else on this forum is a load of excuses and garbage; "3 point shot!", "didn't win early!" when everyone knows full well that Jordan didn't want the 3 pointer to be a part of his game, hit deep midrange fadeaway efficiently, and had a squad of tanking trash at the beginning of his career.



and of course, regarding the 96 finals, to refresh your memory, what was written earlier:
- Ron Harper is injured for Games 3-4-5, only plays 1 minute apiece in Game 3 and 5
- Then Jordan, not Pippen, has to shut down the Sonics best player, Gary Payton, in Game 3
- Payton only scored 2 FG on Jordan (the rest on Randy Brown, or after Jordan sits out the end of the 4th quarter)
- With MJ on Payton, the entire Sonics offense goes stagnant, only 16 pts in the first qtr from which they never come back being down 34-16 after 1 qtr
- In that Game 3, Pippen was outscored by Detlef Schrempf's 20 points on 47% to Pippen's 12 points on 36%
- and the Bulls go up 3-0 thanks to Jordan, not Pippen, shutting down the best player, and go on to win in 6
- Jordan also locked down Payton in Game 5
- but Pippen's poor 5-20 (25%) FG loses the game.


No, Scottie wasn't nearly as good as Jordan that finals. And if we want to go into stats, since you seem to like triple doubles from off-ball players (which doesn't exist, by the way), we can look at Jordan's 1991 finals when he played off ball and still averaged 32 and 11.4, the third highest assists of all time in a finals to only Russell (33%'ish more possessions btw) and Magic.

Dude nobody ever said Pippen was greater than Jordan. I see no reason to gloat about anything any player did offensively in the 96 Finals given everyone on both teams struggled offensively in the series save for Kemp.

Oh poppycock! That Orlando team was a major matchup problem for the Bulls no matter how many games Jordan did or didn't play. They were barely getting past a lesser talented Knicks team in 92 & 93 even before MJ left. Shaq was a top 5 ever Center. Ewing was borderline 10. Penny was WAAAAAY better than John Starks. Grant tipped things in Orlando's favor. Jordan fiends just don't want to give them their due.

Yes two 3 peats....you fail to praise the collective. With him gone from the team during that span. Not the huge drop-off in casts performance wise you see in other stars when they weren't on the floor. Certainly not bottom of the basement like Hakeems Rockets were without Dream for an extended period. So please spare me this "prepared his teammates" more than anyone else talk.

His coach left him and went to 7 more Finals and 5 titles. How far did he go without Phil? Hakeem led Houston to the Finals without Rudy T. Rudy T was a alcoholic that even got a DUI during his Rockets tenure.
And only last in LA 42 games after replacing Phil Jackson.

Imagine calling a 34-31 team with a top 5 rated defense and a MVP candidate "terrible"

[MacGill]

There have certainly been players throughout nba history who showcased incredible talent and a desire to hold their teammates accountable, and if you look through a 'general consensus list' of top 15 ATG's you'll see the correlation between the team dynamic/success and individual greatness.

The difference in basketball ability is why you have the BB bruisers, like an Oakley say, versus the MJ's, Kobe's, Hakeems etc.Sadly, in recent threads I've participated in, this intangible goes out the window because you can't place a number on it. It tells me that many posting here haven't truly been in those types of positions in real life, whether personal or business. Example: you could be an amazing individual contributor in your role but a terrible people leader. Most will confuse that though because they are so good individually that they think they would crush any leadership opportunity. Reality, most fail and can't understand why they can't get people to follow their lead because they still view themselves as the best but don't know how to create best versions of the others around.

Now in basketball, everyone on the court has mostly been the 'best of the best' individual contributor (as they've been their whole lives in this sport) and now the jockeying happens to set hierachy on the basketball court. Now, a big part of the coaches job is to keep all the egos in check and the team vision/goals on track. Much easier said then done and look no further than the past 10 years to see how many coaches have changed teams, became scapegoats, or been demoted. No coach starts off as legendary, but a coachable star player 100% makes a huge positive impact and helps set the stage for the coaches future legendary status.

This is a team sport and the star players influence, coaching buy-in, on the court can have even more uptake by the rest of the team than the coaching philosopy itself.

Re: Making teammates Better: 100000000% star players make their teammates better, I still don't understand how this is even debatable at this point. Let's use MJ for example with Scottie. Prior to the Bulls drafting Pippen in 87, what competition did Pippen face that was even comparable to the nba level? We know the answer to this. So we all agree that up and until a certain point, 99.99% of all nba rookies will go through a growth learning curve as they continue to get better. Hence why prime/peak years start in your later 20's then when you first come into the league.

Now, you're not getting dramatically better at the nba level solely by working with your coaching staff and shooting coaches in practice only scenarios. Does it help, 100%, but no coaching staff or trainers are replicating the nba game at present or the assignment of players you're up against. So now you have opportunity to play against your own team but go up against someone who is going to play you as hard as they would play any opposing nba team in the league at that time. And you happen to be one of the best young talents in the league who grows into the best in game.

Pippen obviously had the individual talent to not have to go the 'Oakley' route, but how in the world could anyone argue that the exposure he got, and the luxury any team has having an ATG on their roster, doesn't have any positive effect in that player or greater team. Early MJ was 100% the player who thought that being the best indivdually would make him an amazing leader, but we saw this as not the case. But he was coachable, he did buy into the coaching system (triangle), and developed more of a team game. Listen, pro sports isn't nice, it's cut-throat, and look no further then all the coaches who take the fall for team underwhelming performances. It's not always the coaches fault btw.

Prior to the nba, MJ didn't have leadership experience, he wasn't a mentor, and only dreamed about playing in the league. He had to learn and adjust on the fly and their teams delivered and almost every player maxed out on what they brought to the table. Especially more recently, we've seen too many examples of player failures that it's silly this even gets questioned anymore. Was MJ perfect here, no. Did he make mistakes, 100%. But he and his teammates built 2 great dynasties through a great system of team ball, even with him as the best and most dominant player. It can't be argued, but he also doesn't get all the credit either. Even when he retired the first time that team and system was running great. I know many like to use this as a detractor point against MJ, but it's nothing but the work, attitude, and legacy he and the team put in to be carried on.

[EmpireFalls]

If we're being honest, Lebron choked away one ring and absolutely 2 rings if not for Ray Allen and Chris Bosh's rebound/3 to save the series from immediate loss.

Kobe and Jordan never put their teams in that position.

Kobe’s 04 series comes to mind

Yeah, Kobe killed the Lakers in '04, ruining some amazing finals games from Shaq

I mean not just that he was pretty bad defensively too in ‘04 it felt like the moment got to him, he just wasn’t himself. obviously he had a very difficult off court year with the Colorado stuff.

It wasn’t quite 2011, obviously not to the same level of embarrassment but I view them as roughly comparable underperformances from superstar level players.

I’m also going to say, if bledredwine is going to view the 2013 Finals performance as “choking away a title” then that opens up a hell of a lot of other series to criticism…