More trade value: Giannis Antetokounmpo or Ty Lawson?

[Domejandro]

Though I would take Ty Lawson without even the slightest of hesitation, Giannis has more perceived value. Perceived value (not always the same as potential, but in this case it is linked), makes Giannis an incredibly valuable asset. His potential sells tickets.

[Knosh]

Wow, Lawson is just criminally underrated. I'm sorry, but their's no other explanation for it...

Everyone disagrees with me?! Everyone must be wrong!

I also have Curry, Wall, Paul and Lillard clearly ahead of him. You can call Westbrook a SG if you want, but the Thunder have proven that you can have plenty of success with lineups with "no PG and two SGs" in that case, so just to gauge the depth of the position and evaluate Lawson's value I don't see how the distinction matters. And Westbrook is clearly ahead of him as well. To me Lowry is also clearly ahead of Lawson, but you seem to think he is about the same, so let's just work with that.
So we have 5 better PGs (counting Russ) and one about as good as him so far.

To me the following players are about as good as Lawson as well:
Conley
Teague
Bledsoe
Kemba
Kyrie
Holiday
Rubio
IT

I'd pick some of those over Lawson and some not, but to me all of them are pretty close.

Based on his play this season, Collison also belongs on that list, but I'm not convinced that he keeps it up yet. Dragic and Parker seem to have down seasons, but you can certainly make a case for them as well based on past performance. And I'm probably forgetting someone...

Who of those names looks out of place to you? Because I'm looking at a pool of 12-15 players from which Lawson just doesn't seperate himself. Also consider that there are some ball dominant stars playing at other positions (Harden, Lebron) that might be best suited (or at the very least don't mind) to play with 3&D PGs like Beverly or Avery Bradley. At any given time there aren't much more than 15 teams in win now mode, so if you are a team in win now mode chances are you have one of those guys already and if not, one of those players is stuck on a rebuilding team and probably very available, while there isn't much of a market for him.

Trade value is about skill, but it's also about the scarcity of that skill. There is no doubt that Lawson has skill, but imo there are enough players with similar skill in the league to seriously deflate the value.

[BBallFreak]

Wow, Lawson is just criminally underrated. I'm sorry, but their's no other explanation for it...

Everyone disagrees with me?! Everyone must be wrong!

Wow, not even remotely what I was saying.

I swear, this thread makes me want to stay away from the trade board altogether. You guys are killing me...

[H2tObes]

Really confused when people say Giannis isn't a good player right now. He's already a starting caliber player with an immense amount of room to grow, this is Giannis unless your team needs a title this year. Giannis could easily be a better player as soon as next season.

The question is more trade value. If you vote Lawson you're lying to yourself. Do the results of this thread surprise you, BBallfreak? Lawson is an above average PG in a league that is extremely strong on the PG front. A fringe top 10 PG who is 5'11 won't fetch as much trade value as someone like Giannis who can play 3 positions and is a huge mismatch whenever he is on the court, with sky high potential to boot

[Knosh]

Wow, Lawson is just criminally underrated. I'm sorry, but their's no other explanation for it...

Everyone disagrees with me?! Everyone must be wrong!

Wow, not even remotely what I was saying.

I swear, this thread makes me want to stay away from the trade board altogether. You guys are killing me...

I don't know, if a lot of people disagree with you, just calling the guy underrated doesn't add much to the discussion. And that sentence was more meant in jest than anything...definitely didn't mean to turn you off from reading and responding to the rest of my post or even causing you to stay away from the T&T board alltogether.

[HartfordWhalers]

Everyone disagrees with me?! Everyone must be wrong!

Wow, not even remotely what I was saying.

I swear, this thread makes me want to stay away from the trade board altogether. You guys are killing me...

I don't know, if a lot of people disagree with you, just calling the guy underrated doesn't add much to the discussion. And that sentence was more meant in jest than anything...definitely didn't mean to turn you off from reading and responding to the rest of my post or even causing you to stay away from the T&T board alltogether.

Yeah, there was a lot of content in that post explaining why. Personally, I think that whole post was a great example of why people should read this forum.

[BBallFreak]

Wow, sarcasm from folks who can't read through the thread and see all the stats already posted. Further enhancing my previous statements about this thread.



I'll even add the info from the last thread:

#2 in the league in assists at 10.1 per game

#1 in the league in assist opportunities created at 21 a game according to SportVU. Paul and Rondo are creating around ~3 less, Curry is ~7 less.

This is also done with him being ranked #8 in total passes

The guy has been the best playmaker this season.

[DocRI]

Wow, sarcasm from folks who can't read through the thread and see all the stats already posted. Further enhancing my previous statements about this thread.



I'll even add the info from the last thread:

#2 in the league in assists at 10.1 per game

#1 in the league in assist opportunities created at 21 a game according to SportVU. Paul and Rondo are creating around ~3 less, Curry is ~7 less.

This is also done with him being ranked #8 in total passes

The guy has been the best playmaker this season.

Can you read through an entire POST, much less thread, to see the valid counter-arguments that have been offered to your opinion ? Or do you just wanna ignore those and selectively quote people who disagree with you, like you did to Knosh?

Knosh, my hat is off to you; if I'd written as good of a post as you did and only had the opening joke quoted, I don't think I'd have responded as classy as you did. And kudos and thanks to HW as well for standing up for you and for this entire forum.

BBall, if you hate the responses you get on this board so much, maybe it's best if you do just stay away. This board is terrific because fans of different teams, with different viewpoints, can voice their opinions and debate them. Either join our reindeer games or go play by yourself.

P.S. — Here's one more stat for you — Paul's team, Rondo's team, and Curry's team all have far better records than the Nuggets. Right or wrong, much like with a QB in football, wins and losses matter to a PG. If you think CP3, Rondo, or Curry would trade their wins for Lawson's assist opportunities, quite frankly, you're nuts.

[BBallFreak]

Wow, sarcasm from folks who can't read through the thread and see all the stats already posted. Further enhancing my previous statements about this thread.



I'll even add the info from the last thread:

#2 in the league in assists at 10.1 per game

#1 in the league in assist opportunities created at 21 a game according to SportVU. Paul and Rondo are creating around ~3 less, Curry is ~7 less.

This is also done with him being ranked #8 in total passes

The guy has been the best playmaker this season.

Can you read through an entire POST, much less thread, to see the valid counter-arguments that have been offered to your opinion ? Or do you just wanna ignore those and selectively quote people who disagree with you, like you did to Knosh?

Knosh, my hat is off to you; if I'd written as good of a post as you did and only had the opening joke quoted, I don't think I'd have responded as classy as you did. And kudos and thanks to HW as well for standing up for you and for this entire forum.

BBall, if you hate the responses you get on this board so much, maybe it's best if you do just stay away. This board is terrific because fans of different teams, with different viewpoints, can voice their opinions and debate them. Either join our reindeer games or go play by yourself.

P.S. — Here's one more stat for you — Paul's team, Rondo's team, and Curry's team all have far better records than the Nuggets. Right or wrong, much like with a QB in football, wins and losses matter to a PG. If you think CP3, Rondo, or Curry would trade their wins for Lawson's assist opportunities, quite frankly, you're nuts.

What counter point? G is young and could become as good as Lawson? That's what you've got? THAT'S the counterpoint?

Look, what was argued at this point was where Lawson was ranked as a point guard. I conceded that, with Westbrook included (and I initially did not include him because I do think of him as more of a shooting guard), he's not top 5 but IMO top 6. NO ONE has come up with an argument that actually denies that. Everyone just keeps saying, "Look at this guy and that guy! You could argue that they're better." Then, they don't bother to argue it!

I've given stats!

I've given names of guys who are better!

No one else has come up with a damn thing!

So if he's not top 6, who is? Prove it!

As for your wins argument, Mario Chalmers was the starting point guard for a 66 win Heat team two years ago.

[Blame Rasho]

The whole I know more than you thing gets really lame no matter what the board is.

[BBallFreak]

The whole I know more than you thing gets really lame no matter what the board is.

You're a mod? Come on man, I'm not claiming I know more! I'm asking for someone to actually argue that he's not top 6! No one has!

[H2tObes]

Isn't this thread about trade value though? Poll results speak for itself. All I see you arguing is if Lawson is a top 6 PG or not

I agree if you need a PG for a championship run this season, and maybe the next...then I could see teams taking Lawson over Giannis (though it would be a mistake unless they win a championship) ala Love for Wiggins in the Cavs perspective. Not an extremely common situation

[BBallFreak]

Isn't this thread about trade value though? Poll results speak for itself. All I see you arguing is if Lawson is a top 6 PG or not

I agree if you need a PG for a championship run this season, and maybe the next...then I could see teams taking Lawson over Giannis (though it would be a mistake unless they win a championship) ala Love for Wiggins in the Cavs perspective. Not an extremely common situation

He's 27 years old. He's got 4 or 5 very strong, productive years left in him...

[Knosh]

I did actually read through the thread and did see the stats.

For one I think there is more to a PG than just points and assists. Imo Lawson is one of the worst defenders of the guys I mentioned for example.

Also I think using per game stats is somewhat missleading in regards to Lawson, since he is playing 37.4 minutes per game on a team that is top 5 in pace. Imo that has more to do with Denver's lack of a viable backup (before they got Nelson) than anything else.

But mainly I didn't see the relevancy to the point I was trying to make. How is Lawson separating himself from Teague who is averaging 17 and 7 in 31 minutes? Or Conley who has 18 and 6 in 33 minutes? And the other guys are putting up similar numbers as well.

[WhatsaTDot]

The whole I know more than you thing gets really lame no matter what the board is.

You're a mod? Come on man, I'm not claiming I know more! I'm asking for someone to actually argue that he's not top 6! No one has!

Ok stats...he's 15th in PER amongst point guards. However in that band of PGs from 10th to 18th, the PER difference is 1.35.

In TS% he's 32nd amongst qualifying PGs.
In Assist Ratio, he's 7th with a rating of 33.8. The difference between 7th and 14th is 2.0
His usage% is 22nd amongst PGs with 23.2.
His rebounding rate amongst PGs isn't in the top 50.
His value added is 12th.
His estimated wins added is 12th.

There - not top 6.

[BBallFreak]

I did actually read through the thread and did see the stats.

For one I think there is more to a PG than just points and assists. Imo Lawson is one of the worst defenders of the guys I mentioned for example.

Also I think using per game stats is somewhat missleading in regards to Lawson, since he is playing 37.4 minutes per game on a team that is top 5 in pace. Imo that has more to do with Denver's lack of a viable backup (before they got Nelson) than anything else.

Did we negate Steve Nash because of bad defense, pace and minutes? No, we gave him back to back MVP's

But mainly I didn't see the relevancy to the point I was trying to make. How is Lawson separating himself from Teague who is averaging 17 and 7 in 31 minutes? Or Conley who has 18 and 6 in 33 minutes? And the other guys are putting up similar numbers as well.

So, you don't see the difference between a 18 and 8 power forward vs. a legit 20 and 10 guy?

[H2tObes]

Isn't this thread about trade value though? Poll results speak for itself. All I see you arguing is if Lawson is a top 6 PG or not

I agree if you need a PG for a championship run this season, and maybe the next...then I could see teams taking Lawson over Giannis (though it would be a mistake unless they win a championship) ala Love for Wiggins in the Cavs perspective. Not an extremely common situation

He's 27 years old. He's got 4 or 5 very strong, productive years left in him...

If Giannis continues to improve at the rate he has, he should be a more impactful player than Lawson in two years. He already is a good defender with tons of defensive potential where as Lawson doesn't have much of an impact on the defensive end due to his size. Giannis looks skilled in everything beside his shooting right now. He was a decent 3 pt shooter last year, but he grew a few inches and he was forced to change his form. He actually has good form, but he's inconsistent with it. I don't see why Giannis couldn't grow to become a good shooter given a few seasons of practicing his shot.

There's just so much potential when you're talking about Giannis when you already know what you get with Lawson, even though what you get with Lawson is good, you know what you're getting. We're talking about trade value here so potential is a massive part of what makes up a 20 year olds trade value.

[BBallFreak]

Isn't this thread about trade value though? Poll results speak for itself. All I see you arguing is if Lawson is a top 6 PG or not

I agree if you need a PG for a championship run this season, and maybe the next...then I could see teams taking Lawson over Giannis (though it would be a mistake unless they win a championship) ala Love for Wiggins in the Cavs perspective. Not an extremely common situation

He's 27 years old. He's got 4 or 5 very strong, productive years left in him...

If Giannis continues to improve at the rate he has, he should be a more impactful player than Lawson in two years. He already is a good defender with tons of defensive potential where as Lawson doesn't have much of an impact on the defensive end due to his size. Giannis looks skilled in everything beside his shooting right now. He was a decent 3 pt shooter last year, but he grew a few inches and he was forced to change his form. He actually has good form, but he's inconsistent with it. I don't see why Giannis couldn't grow to become a good shooter given a few seasons of practicing his shot.

There's just so much potential when you're talking about Giannis when you already know what you get with Lawson, even though what you get with Lawson is good, you know what you're getting. We're talking about trade value here so potential is a massive part of what makes up a 20 year olds trade value.

I get that. I just don't agree with it. Potential and a bag of potato chips still gets you a bag of potato chips. Potential got Darko Millicic drafted over Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, and Chris Bosh.

Look, you guys believe G is going to be amazing. He might. That's great. No argument here. I just know, from too much experience with this league, that potential means nothing.

I concede the point. G has more trade value. Do I agree with it? Hell no, nor will I until he realizes the potential...

[Knosh]

So, you don't see the difference between a 18 and 8 power forward vs. a legit 20 and 10 guy?

If the 20/10 guy is playing more minutes with a higher pace and the 18/8 is the superior defender? No, I don't see much of a difference.

[BBallFreak]

So, you don't see the difference between a 18 and 8 power forward vs. a legit 20 and 10 guy?

If the 20/10 guy is playing more minutes with a higher pace and the 18/8 is the superior defender? No, I don't see much of a difference.

Pace has NEVER counted against a player...ever...when judging them.

Come on, pace didn't cost Steve Nash his MVP awards, nor any of the other countless honors he earned.