Masai Ujiri: Raptors Will Change Defensive Scheme For JV

[vini_vidi_vici]

There's no doubt that JV still isn't prepared to be the kind of C Casey wanted him to be defensively. The Raptors were better with 2Pat and Amir out there but both guys are older and fit into Casey's preferred approach better.

With Amir gone I think it's wise that they are trying to think of a better way to approach defence with JV playing big minutes. Another year older, I'm hoping for increased defensive awareness, better game prep, better use of video tape sessions, and comfort from JV. You combine that with superior defence at the SF position and hopefully a new defensive philosophy that plays more to the new group's strengths and hopefully we can make it work. I really believe he has a lot of growth left on both ends. It's coming slowly but he's nowhere near a finished product yet.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I dont understand what kind of C you think DC wants him to be? What does this mean??

I also admit its disconcerting on the surface to have to change the way the defense is playing for 1 player. Having said that, until I see some results/changes, I dont know if we can assume it will be better. I agree though its better to have a more consistent defender in DMC in the SL.

As for his growth, im unsure how much more you will see. I think hes already hyper efficient given his role offensively (OREBs/close to the basket/etc..), I think the real progression is going to come from his passing game offensively. He was also a good rim protector last year, but got killed in PnR and vs PnP bigs specifically, unless he becomes more mobile like the aforementioned AJ/PP, its tough to see alot of growth in those departments too. Having said that, projecting improvements/regressions is a tough avenue to take with almost any young player, its almost a crap shoot.

I think he wishes he was Tyson Chandler who he had in Dallas. It's obvious he's not that level of athlete.

But even Chandler wasn't the Chandler we know now right away. Note his BPM. It wasn't until his 4th year he was a net positive. He took a big step up in year 4.

And as I said about Marc Gasol, who isn't exactly uber athletic, he wasn't an NBA net positive until he was 25.

I understand you are concerned about JV because you are looking at what he is now more than you are trying to project where he might end up. I'm more concerned with the latter given his age and the growth I've seen from him annually in different areas of the game.

I'm heading out for the day so I won't be able to respond beyond this but I hope JV steps up big this season so that you and others are more excited about his future with this team.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Chandler was in a much different situation upon being drafted. He didnt start consistently until he left CHI after year 5.

Gasol came in late, and by 25 was only in his 2nd season.

Im not sure these are apt comparisons. Im terms of roles/usage/etc..

We can only judge him on previous seasons, im not sure any of us can predict the future. Again I hope he turns into prime Shaq, do I think thats likely, ofcourse not. I do hope for the sake of the Raps he does make me more excited, but I have little to merit being excited for apart from his age. The problem is for every growth, theres some regression (this year it was PnR D that hindered him, despite improved rim protection).

Take care man, enjoy the day.

[Saciid11]

JVs problem is he doesn't/can't hedge and plays too far back. There is no change here beyond forcing it to the sides instead of the middle. Another year of bad pnr defense coming.

This franchise never learns..

We have to see whether or not the defensive guards and SF can do their job first.

If they start playing better man-to-man defense with the current roster, and start trying to use ICE on the pick and roll sometimes, we might get better results.

All the defensive collapses last year were due to dribble penetrations for drives or drive and kicks.

So yea we'll see.

That bs excuse ... If our guards where the problem then why was our defensive much better when JV was off the court and we had the same guards on the court with Amir and PPAT or Hans ??? Why is the defense better with Amir/PPAT/Hans playing upfront instead of JV??

[Undefeated]

The penetration starts with the pnr. The bigs are the ones hanging our perimeter defender out by not helping on it. Im not convinced JV is smart enough or quick enough if they ICE defenders with him. That also does move him out to the perimeter more. If they do switch and play ICE with JV, at least its somehting different than what was clearly not working. but that does not sound like what was described.

The purpose of ICE isn't to mitigate JV's deficiencies as a PNR defender exclusively and even then I have my doubts now if it'll relieve his problems since he hangs back too far from the ball-handler and ends up getting killed by those mid-range jumpers, but it helps the entire defense by keeping it intact instead of forcing the defense into multiple rotations. By forcing the ball towards the baseline the rotations are easier for the players to understand on the weak-side - they've got to be on the help-side line almost as if they're "zoning". Too often last year they got torched by those skip passes to the weak-side for open shots/dribble drives due to seams opening up because guys were forced to sink too deep into the lane to help out on penetration. Also, forcing baseline the defense also has the added benefit of having the sideline/baseline as a sixth defender under the condition that the ball defender MUST make an effort to get back on the ball-handler's hip forcing the ball into a "box". Anytime you've got the ball contained in the corner that's an extremely difficult pass to make out of especially with the defense flooding the strong-side.

[Saciid11]

Foot speed is not his only problem, BBIQ is JV biggest issue... Asik if not fast center or athletic center, yet he finds way to defend the pick and roll and is one of the best post defender and rebounder ..

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL-2Iz0HLKo[/youtube]

[Clementine9]

This franchise never learns..

We have to see whether or not the defensive guards and SF can do their job first.

If they start playing better man-to-man defense with the current roster, and start trying to use ICE on the pick and roll sometimes, we might get better results.

All the defensive collapses last year were due to dribble penetrations for drives or drive and kicks.

So yea we'll see.

That bs excuse ... If our guards where the problem then why was our defensive much better when JV was off the court and we had the same guards on the court with Amir and PPAT or Hans ??? Why is the defense better with Amir/PPAT/Hans playing upfront instead of JV??

See my page 3 post where this wasn't true for the last 3 months of the season, also wasn't much of a change if you look at the entire season.

[Saciid11]

We have to see whether or not the defensive guards and SF can do their job first.

If they start playing better man-to-man defense with the current roster, and start trying to use ICE on the pick and roll sometimes, we might get better results.

All the defensive collapses last year were due to dribble penetrations for drives or drive and kicks.

So yea we'll see.

That bs excuse ... If our guards where the problem then why was our defensive much better when JV was off the court and we had the same guards on the court with Amir and PPAT or Hans ??? Why is the defense better with Amir/PPAT/Hans playing upfront instead of JV??

See my page 3 post where this wasn't true for the last 3 months of the season, also wasn't much of a change if you look at the entire season.

Last 3 months... are you serious, did you forget what Gortat did to him at both ends of the court.. Gortat looked like superstar going up against JV.

[Clementine9]

That bs excuse ... If our guards where the problem then why was our defensive much better when JV was off the court and we had the same guards on the court with Amir and PPAT or Hans ??? Why is the defense better with Amir/PPAT/Hans playing upfront instead of JV??

See my page 3 post where this wasn't true for the last 3 months of the season, also wasn't much of a change if you look at the entire season.

Last 3 months... are you serious, did you forget what Gortat did to him at both ends of the court.. Gortat looked like superstar going up against JV.

Yeah, JV was guarding Nene.

EDIT: And what you said has nothing to do with how wrong you are about the original comment but keep talking. It's gold!

EDIT2: JV's on/off numbers for playoffs this season:
DefRtg on court: 109.4
DefRtg off court: 115.9

I mean I don't think 4 games really says much, but since you decided you needed to use small sample sizes to prove your point...

[Saciid11]

See my page 3 post where this wasn't true for the last 3 months of the season, also wasn't much of a change if you look at the entire season.

Last 3 months... are you serious, did you forget what Gortat did to him at both ends of the court.. Gortat looked like superstar going up against JV.

Yeah, JV was guarding Nene.

EDIT: And what you said has nothing to do with how wrong you are about the original comment but keep talking. It's gold!

EDIT2: JV's on/off numbers for playoffs this season:
DefRtg on court: 109.4
DefRtg off court: 115.9

I mean I don't think 4 games really says much, but since you decided you needed to use small sample sizes to prove your point...

He was guarding Gortat too allot of the time, but either Nene was going off on JV too.. 4?? You know very well JV has sucked at the defensive end since he entered the league, this just highlighted his weakness even more ... because we added horrible defender in Lou and lost good defender on Solomon ...

[knickerbocker2k2]

I can't understand those who think Casey didn't already try to accommodate JV in his defensive scheme. Majority of the year we played a different type of D when JV was involved in the play. Hans/2pat/Amir all hedged heavily on pick/roll, while we had JV stay back in the paint leaving the perimeter defender on an island. Why do you think he did that? That is because JV doesn't have the foot sprint to play on the perimeter.

Obviously that didn't work, but you can't accuse Casey of trying not to utilize JV as best as possible. Hopefully a new strategy and year of development will help JV, but IMO its long shot. No amount of gimmicks can hide glaring deficiencies.

[vini_vidi_vici]

See my page 3 post where this wasn't true for the last 3 months of the season, also wasn't much of a change if you look at the entire season.

Last 3 months... are you serious, did you forget what Gortat did to him at both ends of the court.. Gortat looked like superstar going up against JV.

Yeah, JV was guarding Nene.

EDIT: And what you said has nothing to do with how wrong you are about the original comment but keep talking. It's gold!

EDIT2: JV's on/off numbers for playoffs this season:
DefRtg on court: 109.4
DefRtg off court: 115.9

I mean I don't think 4 games really says much, but since you decided you needed to use small sample sizes to prove your point...

I agree small sample sizes dont mean much, and since youre chastising him for sample sizes, youre using 3 months, which is just as disingenuous. Conversely youre only using one set of data to illustrate your point, which is just as inane.

For example, JV had the worst DFG% differential, and had the 4th highest FGAs against.

[Clementine9]

Last 3 months... are you serious, did you forget what Gortat did to him at both ends of the court.. Gortat looked like superstar going up against JV.

Yeah, JV was guarding Nene.

EDIT: And what you said has nothing to do with how wrong you are about the original comment but keep talking. It's gold!

EDIT2: JV's on/off numbers for playoffs this season:
DefRtg on court: 109.4
DefRtg off court: 115.9

I mean I don't think 4 games really says much, but since you decided you needed to use small sample sizes to prove your point...

I agree small sample sizes dont mean much, and since youre chastising him for sample sizes, youre using 3 months, which is just as disingenuous. Conversely youre only using one set of data to illustrate your point, which is just as inane.

For example, JV had the worst DFG% differential, and had the 4th highest FGAs against.

Sure, we can talk about where his weaknesses are. But acting like our defense falls apart when he's on the floor is wrong. What is the rate teams are scoring against us when he's on the floor? That's what we're talking about when we're talking about team defense. So your stats show where he's weak. Cool.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Yeah, JV was guarding Nene.

EDIT: And what you said has nothing to do with how wrong you are about the original comment but keep talking. It's gold!

EDIT2: JV's on/off numbers for playoffs this season:
DefRtg on court: 109.4
DefRtg off court: 115.9

I mean I don't think 4 games really says much, but since you decided you needed to use small sample sizes to prove your point...

I agree small sample sizes dont mean much, and since youre chastising him for sample sizes, youre using 3 months, which is just as disingenuous. Conversely youre only using one set of data to illustrate your point, which is just as inane.

For example, JV had the worst DFG% differential, and had the 4th highest FGAs against.

Sure, we can talk about where his weaknesses are. But acting like our defense falls apart when he's on the floor is wrong. What is the rate teams are scoring against us when he's on the floor? That's what we're talking about when we're talking about team defense. So your stats show where he's weak. Cool.

The rate teams are scoring on him (edit: by him, I meant the team while on the floor) is illustrated in the DRTG, 109.4 when hes on the court in the POs, thats falling apart. Just because the team when hes off isnt very good either, isnt some advocacy of him. Cool.

[changes]

Foot speed is not his only problem, BBIQ is JV biggest issue... Asik if not fast center or athletic center, yet he finds way to defend the pick and roll and is one of the best post defender and rebounder ..

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL-2Iz0HLKo[/youtube]

His movement still looks alot better than JV, who is almost incapable of retreating backwards like that. And his balance also looks much better, when Valanciunas starts leaning to one side he can't adjust to the attackers change of direction and recompose himself like the video.

[Throwback24]

You are gone change defensive scheme for one player ... This is Bargnani all over again.

We change defensive schemes for our lead feet guards all the itme, what's different

[Thespianoid]

You are gone change defensive scheme for one player ... This is Bargnani all over again.

We change defensive schemes for our lead feet guards all the itme, what's different

I'm not sure that actually happened?

[Patman]

All the guys out there bitching about the changing the D for one player are being ignorant.

First of all, defence is a team game. It's not like ICE will put the other 4 players at a disadvantage just to hide JV. It's called playing to your players' strengths.

We made that mistake with Bosh. We tried to make him a rim protector, which he never was or ever will be. And that gave him a rep as a poor defender. What happened when he came to Miami? They made him guard the perimeter a lot more instead of dropping back and protecting the rim. He became one of the best bigs at blowing up pick and rolls. Yes, he had Wade and LeBron, but that's just more proof for my first point that it takes a team to defend. You don't leave one man on island. Even a defensive player of the year like Kawhi needs a good system behind him to be able to slow down the top wing scorers in the game.

I'm not saying that JV does not need to improve his D. He does. And are there other C's out there who would improve our D? Hell yes. But getting a C to clean up the mess is as good a solution to team defense as getting an iso scorer is to offence. Everybody needs to pitch in and do their part.

[vini_vidi_vici]

All the guys out there bitching about the changing the D for one player are being ignorant.

First of all, defence is a team game. It's not like ICE will put the other 4 players at a disadvantage just to hide JV. It's called playing to your players' strengths.

We made that mistake with Bosh. We tried to make him a rim protector, which he never was or ever will be. And that gave him a rep as a poor defender. What happened when he came to Miami? They made him guard the perimeter a lot more instead of dropping back and protecting the rim. He became one of the best bigs at blowing up pick and rolls. Yes, he had Wade and LeBron, but that's just more proof for my first point that it takes a team to defend. You don't leave one man on island. Even a defensive player of the year like Kawhi needs a good system behind him to be able to slow down the top wing scorers in the game.

I'm not saying that JV does not need to improve his D. He does. And are there other C's out there who would improve our D? Hell yes. But getting a C to clean up the mess is as good a solution to team defense as getting an iso scorer is to offence. Everybody needs to pitch in and do their part.

He actually had a rep of being a pretty good defender before going to MIA.

As part of their due diligence on Bosh, team president Pat Riley and the Heat brass reached out to Duke’s head coach, Mike Krzyzewski, who coached Bosh and the USA basketball team in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing.

"Coach K had mentioned that he was one of their defensive anchors for that team," Spoelstra said. "He was able to guard multiple positions and pick up their schemes. He was very vocal for that team, which surprised all of us. We didn’t know him, and he didn’t come across that way."

Thats why they felt comfortable getting him.

I agree everyone needs to pitch in, but as Dean Oliver argues..

Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success).

[Patman]

All the guys out there bitching about the changing the D for one player are being ignorant.

First of all, defence is a team game. It's not like ICE will put the other 4 players at a disadvantage just to hide JV. It's called playing to your players' strengths.

We made that mistake with Bosh. We tried to make him a rim protector, which he never was or ever will be. And that gave him a rep as a poor defender. What happened when he came to Miami? They made him guard the perimeter a lot more instead of dropping back and protecting the rim. He became one of the best bigs at blowing up pick and rolls. Yes, he had Wade and LeBron, but that's just more proof for my first point that it takes a team to defend. You don't leave one man on island. Even a defensive player of the year like Kawhi needs a good system behind him to be able to slow down the top wing scorers in the game.

I'm not saying that JV does not need to improve his D. He does. And are there other C's out there who would improve our D? Hell yes. But getting a C to clean up the mess is as good a solution to team defense as getting an iso scorer is to offence. Everybody needs to pitch in and do their part.

He actually had a rep of being a pretty good defender before going to MIA.

As part of their due diligence on Bosh, team president Pat Riley and the Heat brass reached out to Duke’s head coach, Mike Krzyzewski, who coached Bosh and the USA basketball team in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing.

"Coach K had mentioned that he was one of their defensive anchors for that team," Spoelstra said. "He was able to guard multiple positions and pick up their schemes. He was very vocal for that team, which surprised all of us. We didn’t know him, and he didn’t come across that way."

Thats why they felt comfortable getting him.

I agree everyone needs to pitch in, but as Dean Oliver argues..

Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success).

I'm very familiar with Bosh' Olympic performance. He was their closing big because he could switch on PnR's (which is even more popular in FIBA play that in the NBA), and could hit free throws. I've used Coach K's quotes on him many times against a lot of posters on here who insisted that Bosh was a poor defender. We were still using him wrongly even after the Olympic games. It's not until he went to Miami that all the Bosh haters went "Ohhh, he can play D".

And yes, I agree that a good defensive big is more important than a good perimeter defender. I'm a believer that the least important to a team's defence is the PG, and the importance grows with each position, with C the most important.

[Clementine9]

Sure, we can talk about where his weaknesses are. But acting like our defense falls apart when he's on the floor is wrong. What is the rate teams are scoring against us when he's on the floor? That's what we're talking about when we're talking about team defense. So your stats show where he's weak. Cool.

The rate teams are scoring on him (edit: by him, I meant the team while on the floor) is illustrated in the DRTG, 109.4 when hes on the court in the POs, thats falling apart. Just because the team when hes off isnt very good either, isnt some advocacy of him. Cool.

All right so I guess we're on the same page! I was arguing Sacid's ludicrous points, not trying to prop him up as some defensive juggernaut.

[vini_vidi_vici]

All the guys out there bitching about the changing the D for one player are being ignorant.

First of all, defence is a team game. It's not like ICE will put the other 4 players at a disadvantage just to hide JV. It's called playing to your players' strengths.

We made that mistake with Bosh. We tried to make him a rim protector, which he never was or ever will be. And that gave him a rep as a poor defender. What happened when he came to Miami? They made him guard the perimeter a lot more instead of dropping back and protecting the rim. He became one of the best bigs at blowing up pick and rolls. Yes, he had Wade and LeBron, but that's just more proof for my first point that it takes a team to defend. You don't leave one man on island. Even a defensive player of the year like Kawhi needs a good system behind him to be able to slow down the top wing scorers in the game.

I'm not saying that JV does not need to improve his D. He does. And are there other C's out there who would improve our D? Hell yes. But getting a C to clean up the mess is as good a solution to team defense as getting an iso scorer is to offence. Everybody needs to pitch in and do their part.

He actually had a rep of being a pretty good defender before going to MIA.

As part of their due diligence on Bosh, team president Pat Riley and the Heat brass reached out to Duke’s head coach, Mike Krzyzewski, who coached Bosh and the USA basketball team in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing.

"Coach K had mentioned that he was one of their defensive anchors for that team," Spoelstra said. "He was able to guard multiple positions and pick up their schemes. He was very vocal for that team, which surprised all of us. We didn’t know him, and he didn’t come across that way."

Thats why they felt comfortable getting him.

I agree everyone needs to pitch in, but as Dean Oliver argues..

Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success).

I'm very familiar with Bosh' Olympic performance. He was their closing big because he could switch on PnR's (which is even more popular in FIBA play that in the NBA), and could hit free throws. I've used Coach K's quotes on him many times against a lot of posters on here who insisted that Bosh was a poor defender. We were still using him wrongly even after the Olympic games. It's not until he went to Miami that all the Bosh haters went "Ohhh, he can play D".

And yes, I agree that a good defensive big is more important than a good perimeter defender. I'm a believer that the least important to a team's defence is the PG, and the importance grows with each position, with C the most important.

I think if this place has taught me anything, judging someones rep by casual (even some hardcores) isnt exactly fair. I dont think I personally ever refuted Bosh was some terrible defender, but I also never advocated he was great. I think the focus in MIA to improve upon that, def help develop some of the known qualities (atleast to coaches, altho admittedly Spo/Riley had their doubts).

Yea I think I agree somewhat, I think for me its just amounts rather than by position, by that I mean, I think you need 2-3 good to great defenders, 1-2 at the G/Ws and 1 at the 4-5. Having said that, I dont think there is some set way, as having just one all world defender (like Hibbert) can drastically change how perimeter defenders are able to close out and force players off the 3PT line and drive into his elite rim protection. So its a confluence of ideals. But overall as you said, id rather a dominant big protecting the paint above all else.