PMOTT3 and Chuck Texas Early Off-Season Review: OKC Thunder

[MoneyTalks41890]

So a four team deal hoping no one balks at the idea of giving OKC a backup C and let Kanter walk, got it. You're reaching a bit. And the need is at SG. They were going to match Kanter when they dealt for him. Moving those guys for cap was lowering the tax bill.

I'm really not reaching. Barnes was originally scheduled to go to OKC for christ sake. Waiting and combining already agreed to deals happens every year, and no team has backed out of a publicly reported agreed to deal that I know of.

The defensiveness in this thread is overwhelming. Yes, each of those vets could easily have been folded in. And yes, whatever it was, I think OKC was missing a move to add more talent and not just more health this offseason. Especially at SG...

You're just not offering realistic options that fit. What does each mean? The Zaza could have happened if the timing was right, but the Bucks did that to get Monroe. Barnes was clearly turned away, like I said, I think it's because there's history there.

You're basically saying OKC dropped the ball because they didn't get in on the two salary dumps that happened and would have been logistically difficult to accomplish and wouldn't have been filling the need on the wing, where I think there is a need for a more complete player, but that guys not on the table.

[HartfordWhalers]

So a four team deal hoping no one balks at the idea of giving OKC a backup C and let Kanter walk, got it. You're reaching a bit. And the need is at SG. They were going to match Kanter when they dealt for him. Moving those guys for cap was lowering the tax bill.

I'm really not reaching. Barnes was originally scheduled to go to OKC for christ sake. Waiting and combining already agreed to deals happens every year, and no team has backed out of a publicly reported agreed to deal that I know of.

The defensiveness in this thread is overwhelming. Yes, each of those vets could easily have been folded in. And yes, whatever it was, I think OKC was missing a move to add more talent and not just more health this offseason. Especially at SG...

Barnes wasn't ever going to OKC.

And not defensive, but when the point of contention is "well they didn't do things that more than likely other teams wouldn't do" it seems like punishing someone for not doing the impossible. The SG position isn't dire to me, I like 2/3 of the players and Waiters expires next year. Roberson should play 15ish mpg, Morrow 20-25, and Westbrook at the 2 for the rest. Barnes wasn't moving the needle and has issues with Ibaka so he was likely off the table anyway.

Barnes was rumored to be in that deal, but yes, OKC seemed clear that while the deal legally worked with him, they didn't him.

And it is not "well they didn't do things that more than likely other teams wouldn't do". It is that they didn't do thing that other teams did. That is exactly the point.

Houston, SAS, and LAC all added to their cores pieces that should help upgrade the team this upcoming year. OKC didn't. They decided to run it back with the same guys and hope for better health and better results, while paying more to do so.

I swear I said that before:

SAS, LAC and HOU are better on paper than how they finished last season imo. GS similarly flat lined on paper to OKC (Looney for Lee), but they also just won the ring. Put another way, if I look back on June odds, did OKC become more of a favorite to win the chip this year or not this offseason? If the answer is not any more likely, I don't think that is a great answer considering how much more expensive they got. Or how much closer to Durant's fa.

[MoneyTalks41890]

I think getting everyone back clearly keeps them in the same tier as those teams. They haven't even played together as a full team and you're already dismissing them because they didn't make summer moves. We will see. This wont get resolved in July.

[bondom34]

I'm really not reaching. Barnes was originally scheduled to go to OKC for christ sake. Waiting and combining already agreed to deals happens every year, and no team has backed out of a publicly reported agreed to deal that I know of.

The defensiveness in this thread is overwhelming. Yes, each of those vets could easily have been folded in. And yes, whatever it was, I think OKC was missing a move to add more talent and not just more health this offseason. Especially at SG...

Barnes wasn't ever going to OKC.

And not defensive, but when the point of contention is "well they didn't do things that more than likely other teams wouldn't do" it seems like punishing someone for not doing the impossible. The SG position isn't dire to me, I like 2/3 of the players and Waiters expires next year. Roberson should play 15ish mpg, Morrow 20-25, and Westbrook at the 2 for the rest. Barnes wasn't moving the needle and has issues with Ibaka so he was likely off the table anyway.

Barnes was rumored to be in that deal, but yes, OKC seemed clear that while the deal legally worked with him, they didn't him.

And it is not "well they didn't do things that more than likely other teams wouldn't do". It is that they didn't do thing that other teams did. That is exactly the point.

Houston, SAS, and LAC all added to their cores pieces that should help upgrade the team this upcoming year. OKC didn't. They decided to run it back with the same guys and hope for better health and better results, while paying more to do so.

I swear I said that before:

SAS, LAC and HOU are better on paper than how they finished last season imo. GS similarly flat lined on paper to OKC (Looney for Lee), but they also just won the ring. Put another way, if I look back on June odds, did OKC become more of a favorite to win the chip this year or not this offseason? If the answer is not any more likely, I don't think that is a great answer considering how much more expensive they got. Or how much closer to Durant's fa.

2 of those teams used cap space in Houston and SAS, LA is at best mildly better to me by adding an aging Pierce and.....Josh Smith? They also added Lance which may blow up entirely. OKC didn't have room to add unless you really don't like what they had and thought they needed a big overhaul. They had 3 moves that were possible this summer, draft BPA, keep Kanter, keep Singler. They did them all.

[HartfordWhalers]

So a four team deal hoping no one balks at the idea of giving OKC a backup C and let Kanter walk, got it. You're reaching a bit. And the need is at SG. They were going to match Kanter when they dealt for him. Moving those guys for cap was lowering the tax bill.

I'm really not reaching. Barnes was originally scheduled to go to OKC for christ sake. Waiting and combining already agreed to deals happens every year, and no team has backed out of a publicly reported agreed to deal that I know of.

The defensiveness in this thread is overwhelming. Yes, each of those vets could easily have been folded in. And yes, whatever it was, I think OKC was missing a move to add more talent and not just more health this offseason. Especially at SG...

You're just not offering realistic options that fit. What does each mean? The Zaza could have happened if the timing was right, but the Bucks did that to get Monroe. Barnes was clearly turned away, like I said, I think it's because there's history there.

You're basically saying OKC dropped the ball because they didn't get in on the two salary dumps that happened and would have been logistically difficult to accomplish and wouldn't have been filling the need on the wing, where I think there is a need for a more complete player, but that guys not on the table.

I'm saying OKC dropped the ball.

{And if you look at when Zaza happened, it happened in between the OKC deals, not on day 1-3 of free agency. Timing shouldn't be an issue. But at this point I'm wondering if I'm being intentionally dragged off topic, by more not serious problems...}

[bondom34]

I think getting everyone back clearly keeps them in the same tier as those teams. They haven't even played together as a full team and you're already dismissing them because they didn't make summer moves. We will see. This wont get resolved in July.

And this is what happens every offseason. Nothing flashy.

[HartfordWhalers]

Barnes wasn't ever going to OKC.

And not defensive, but when the point of contention is "well they didn't do things that more than likely other teams wouldn't do" it seems like punishing someone for not doing the impossible. The SG position isn't dire to me, I like 2/3 of the players and Waiters expires next year. Roberson should play 15ish mpg, Morrow 20-25, and Westbrook at the 2 for the rest. Barnes wasn't moving the needle and has issues with Ibaka so he was likely off the table anyway.

Barnes was rumored to be in that deal, but yes, OKC seemed clear that while the deal legally worked with him, they didn't him.

And it is not "well they didn't do things that more than likely other teams wouldn't do". It is that they didn't do thing that other teams did. That is exactly the point.

Houston, SAS, and LAC all added to their cores pieces that should help upgrade the team this upcoming year. OKC didn't. They decided to run it back with the same guys and hope for better health and better results, while paying more to do so.

I swear I said that before:

SAS, LAC and HOU are better on paper than how they finished last season imo. GS similarly flat lined on paper to OKC (Looney for Lee), but they also just won the ring. Put another way, if I look back on June odds, did OKC become more of a favorite to win the chip this year or not this offseason? If the answer is not any more likely, I don't think that is a great answer considering how much more expensive they got. Or how much closer to Durant's fa.

2 of those teams used cap space in Houston and SAS, LA is at best mildly better to me by adding an aging Pierce and.....Josh Smith? They also added Lance which may blow up entirely. OKC didn't have room to add unless you really don't like what they had and thought they needed a big overhaul. They had 3 moves that were possible this summer, draft BPA, keep Kanter, keep Singler. They did them all.

Except Houston didn't use cap space. Details are falling apart in this thread.

[bondom34]

I'm really not reaching. Barnes was originally scheduled to go to OKC for christ sake. Waiting and combining already agreed to deals happens every year, and no team has backed out of a publicly reported agreed to deal that I know of.

The defensiveness in this thread is overwhelming. Yes, each of those vets could easily have been folded in. And yes, whatever it was, I think OKC was missing a move to add more talent and not just more health this offseason. Especially at SG...

You're just not offering realistic options that fit. What does each mean? The Zaza could have happened if the timing was right, but the Bucks did that to get Monroe. Barnes was clearly turned away, like I said, I think it's because there's history there.

You're basically saying OKC dropped the ball because they didn't get in on the two salary dumps that happened and would have been logistically difficult to accomplish and wouldn't have been filling the need on the wing, where I think there is a need for a more complete player, but that guys not on the table.

I'm saying OKC dropped the ball.

{And if you look at when Zaza happened, it happened in between the OKC deals, not on day 1-3 of free agency. Timing shouldn't be an issue. But at this point I'm wondering if I'm being intentionally dragged off topic, by more not serious problems...}

What ball was dropped? And why do they want Zaza again, there's zero need.

[bondom34]

Barnes was rumored to be in that deal, but yes, OKC seemed clear that while the deal legally worked with him, they didn't him.

And it is not "well they didn't do things that more than likely other teams wouldn't do". It is that they didn't do thing that other teams did. That is exactly the point.

Houston, SAS, and LAC all added to their cores pieces that should help upgrade the team this upcoming year. OKC didn't. They decided to run it back with the same guys and hope for better health and better results, while paying more to do so.

I swear I said that before:

2 of those teams used cap space in Houston and SAS, LA is at best mildly better to me by adding an aging Pierce and.....Josh Smith? They also added Lance which may blow up entirely. OKC didn't have room to add unless you really don't like what they had and thought they needed a big overhaul. They had 3 moves that were possible this summer, draft BPA, keep Kanter, keep Singler. They did them all.

Except Houston didn't use cap space. Details are falling apart in this thread.

Sorry, exceptions. Of which OKC has the min and maybe the MMLE (I don't even think that, as it was Morrow last year) and there's nothing out there which is an upgrade for that price.

[MoneyTalks41890]

I'm really not reaching. Barnes was originally scheduled to go to OKC for christ sake. Waiting and combining already agreed to deals happens every year, and no team has backed out of a publicly reported agreed to deal that I know of.

The defensiveness in this thread is overwhelming. Yes, each of those vets could easily have been folded in. And yes, whatever it was, I think OKC was missing a move to add more talent and not just more health this offseason. Especially at SG...

You're just not offering realistic options that fit. What does each mean? The Zaza could have happened if the timing was right, but the Bucks did that to get Monroe. Barnes was clearly turned away, like I said, I think it's because there's history there.

You're basically saying OKC dropped the ball because they didn't get in on the two salary dumps that happened and would have been logistically difficult to accomplish and wouldn't have been filling the need on the wing, where I think there is a need for a more complete player, but that guys not on the table.

I'm saying OKC dropped the ball.

{And if you look at when Zaza happened, it happened in between the OKC deals, not on day 1-3 of free agency. Timing shouldn't be an issue. But at this point I'm wondering if I'm being intentionally dragged off topic, by more not serious problems...}

You're not saying it well.

And yes, this is a clear concerted effort by bondom and I to distract from the large contract we've already said is too big that Kanter received and...

You caught us.

Details are falling apart. Lol. You're really on point, sorry to derail your narrative.

That's enough fun for me, I think. I'll let others chime in.

[HartfordWhalers]

You're just not offering realistic options that fit. What does each mean? The Zaza could have happened if the timing was right, but the Bucks did that to get Monroe. Barnes was clearly turned away, like I said, I think it's because there's history there.

You're basically saying OKC dropped the ball because they didn't get in on the two salary dumps that happened and would have been logistically difficult to accomplish and wouldn't have been filling the need on the wing, where I think there is a need for a more complete player, but that guys not on the table.

I'm saying OKC dropped the ball.

{And if you look at when Zaza happened, it happened in between the OKC deals, not on day 1-3 of free agency. Timing shouldn't be an issue. But at this point I'm wondering if I'm being intentionally dragged off topic, by more not serious problems...}

You're not saying it well.

And yes, this is a clear concerted effort by bondom and I to distract from the large contract we've already said is too big that Kanter received and...

You caught us.

Details are falling apart. Lol. You're really on point, sorry to derail your narrative.

That's enough fun for me, I think. I'll let others chime in.

I would believe a lot better I wasn't saying it well if fans of other teams didn't read it and agree with no problem understanding the complaint. Meanwhile OKC fans have dragged through 2 pages of 'no there was no legal way to simply easily fold in a trade which could have been' before deciding that it didn't matter. It certainly tells me there is a lot more defensiveness than listening.


OKC returned the same core - and paid a lot more to do so. If OKC were a run of the mill team, I could give that a polite B (it should be a C). Maybe someone will try and argue that the OKC core is great enough that no move needed to be made. I definitely disagree, I think they are in that upper area where the importance of every move is magnified. The teams around them all made big moves. Some used cap space, and made cap space with aggressive trades like dumping Splitter. Some did it with a protected 1st and a bunch of junk guys. Some did it with the taxpayer MLE and aggressive trades.

OKC sat on their hand. Maybe it will be brilliant -- GS's sitting pat last season was -- but looking at the team I see reasons to be more aggressive. As is, it was a timid offseason. And expensive. Thats not the combo I want from OKC to try and win it this year.

And yes, when the details are consistently wrong I will note it. Sorry?

[165bows]

Kind of docking them for the last few months rather than just the season, but seems like they missed an opportunity to really put pressure on the rest of the league and instead just hurt their own flexibility.

Still a strong top four team which is crazy.

And they actually didn't hurt flexibility at all, they'd be in worse shape had they done nothing and let Kanter walk. This is the season for all these teams to pay big because when the cap jumps, everyone has space to sign whoever. This was the offseason to go into the tax.

Or maybe it is better late than never?
Like I said I am sort of combining their late season moves with off season, which I agree isn't exactly the point. But they were limited in what they could do this offseason by their recent moves due to assets out and money in.

But your last point speaks to what I was saying overall, that the whole series of moves has been disjointed and feels a slight bit panicked. It feels like they are scrambling to make up for lost time so just had to grab whatever was available and make it fit.

[bondom34]

What core returned? Durant hasn't played a game with Kanter, or Singler, or DJ, and barely Waiters or Morrow. They have zero idea as to what the lineup is and no stability. Most title teams have some stability. To me a C is if you came in and left the offseason in the same shape.

[bondom34]

Kind of docking them for the last few months rather than just the season, but seems like they missed an opportunity to really put pressure on the rest of the league and instead just hurt their own flexibility.

Still a strong top four team which is crazy.

And they actually didn't hurt flexibility at all, they'd be in worse shape had they done nothing and let Kanter walk. This is the season for all these teams to pay big because when the cap jumps, everyone has space to sign whoever. This was the offseason to go into the tax.

Or maybe it is better late than never?
Like I said I am sort of combining their late season moves with off season, which I agree isn't exactly the point. But they were limited in what they could do this offseason by their recent moves due to assets out and money in.

But your last point speaks to what I was saying overall, that the whole series of moves has been disjointed and feels a slight bit panicked. It feels like they are scrambling to make up for lost time so just had to grab whatever was available and make it fit.

As far as?

They made a fantastic deadline deal imo and this was all they could do.

[cammac]

Gave them a D
Reasons overpaid for Kanter understand the reasoning but a terrible move and the overpay for Singler there draft was OK.
Just salary dumps without getting value in return think slight bias because of the team.

[HartfordWhalers]

What core returned? Durant hasn't played a game with Kanter, or Singler, or DJ, and barely Waiters or Morrow. They have zero idea as to what the lineup is and no stability. Most title teams have some stability. To me a C is if you came in and left the offseason in the same shape.

Leaving the roster the same isn't automatically average for me. For some rosters it is a great move, and for others it is a terrible move, and for others its bleh.

I get if your feeling is that this roster is pretty set and just didn't play together to prove it and gets a B (or even A). My feeling is the roster is great but still needs more, so staying the same is worse than average.

[bondom34]

What core returned? Durant hasn't played a game with Kanter, or Singler, or DJ, and barely Waiters or Morrow. They have zero idea as to what the lineup is and no stability. Most title teams have some stability. To me a C is if you came in and left the offseason in the same shape.

Leaving the roster the same isn't automatically average for me. For some rosters it is a great move, and for others it is a terrible move, and for others its bleh.

So you would then think the OKC roster is below average.

I consider the starting unit to be top 5. Augustin an above average backup point plus Payne. Morrow an above average backup 2, Singler is meh. McGary and whichever of Adams/Kanter is backup to me is an above average combo. At this point I don't see a glaring hole in the rotation.

[165bows]

And they actually didn't hurt flexibility at all, they'd be in worse shape had they done nothing and let Kanter walk. This is the season for all these teams to pay big because when the cap jumps, everyone has space to sign whoever. This was the offseason to go into the tax.

Or maybe it is better late than never?
Like I said I am sort of combining their late season moves with off season, which I agree isn't exactly the point. But they were limited in what they could do this offseason by their recent moves due to assets out and money in.

But your last point speaks to what I was saying overall, that the whole series of moves has been disjointed and feels a slight bit panicked. It feels like they are scrambling to make up for lost time so just had to grab whatever was available and make it fit.

As far as?

They made a fantastic deadline deal imo and this was all they could do.

I guess I just disagree. In my view they are paying $25M in salary this season for the late season trade acquisitions (Kanter, Waiters, Novak) that cost two first round picks. I won't re-hash all that since this is for their offseason moves but leaving Waiters putting up basically negative production on a championship caliber team is a very big mistake IMO.

[bondom34]

Or maybe it is better late than never?
Like I said I am sort of combining their late season moves with off season, which I agree isn't exactly the point. But they were limited in what they could do this offseason by their recent moves due to assets out and money in.

But your last point speaks to what I was saying overall, that the whole series of moves has been disjointed and feels a slight bit panicked. It feels like they are scrambling to make up for lost time so just had to grab whatever was available and make it fit.

As far as?

They made a fantastic deadline deal imo and this was all they could do.

I guess I just disagree. In my view they are paying $25M in salary this season for the late season trade acquisitions (Kanter, Waiters, Novak) that cost two first round picks. I won't re-hash all that since this is for their offseason moves but leaving Waiters putting up basically negative production on a championship caliber team is a very big mistake IMO.

Waiters I agree on, but the rest:

Jackson was gone either way, he had zero intent of staying. So removing the Waiters part, changing from Jackson and Perk to Augustin and Kanter (plus having someone in Singler to back up Durant when nobody on the roster then could) is huge. Paying a first to move Perk alone was likely the price.

[The Sparest]

Re: starters at C and SG --- yeah I obviously defer to OKC guys on that (not that we have an early consensus here). I did default to Kanter based on that contract and my belief that "starting" is more important to him than it is Adams. I imagine the closing lineup most nights won't even have a center on the floor unless its against teams like Memphis or SAS where you don't have much choice.

I don't think Kanter will be handed the starting job, but if he can't earn heavy minutes, then that contract is going to start looking pretty ugly.

BTW, really enjoying these write ups. Any chance of a sticky thread with links?