Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years

[Quotatious]

I've changed my mind about Russell's peak. I'll go with '65 instead of '62 like I argued before.

'65 looks slightly better based on Trex's per 100 possessions numbers, and I'm inclined to agree that using Russell as playmaker from the post was a better idea than using him as a scorer. Besides, he shot almost 53% from the field in the '65 playoffs (54% TS, which is pretty respectable), while also scoring a bit more compared to the RS. '62 Russell was abnormally efficient from the foul line (almost 73% on more than 8 attempts per game), but '65 was much better from the field. I value the latter a bit more.
Also, '65 was his best season in terms of total (regular season + playoffs) WS.

The gap is extremely small, though. It's really hair-splitting.

[70sFan]

Well, maybe I focus too much on his playoffs performance vs Wilt. Still, I think that Russell playoffs in 1962 are more impressive than 1965 and that's enough for me.

[sp6r=underrated]

So kind of going to make cases for 13 and 10 here as I have those years almost even (IMO 2013 is more portable so that's my preference, 09 is a less polished version of 2010 so I wouldn't support it over those other two).

Criticism of 2012

Spoiler:

I think LeBron 12 was his best year. What kind of flaws are we talking about? His 3P% in the playoffs? Yes his shot was not falling at soem moments. In the finals he couldn't almost score outside the paint, but he still produced high volumes at great efficiency in every series.

Defensively this is about his best. Offensively, he's got a handful of years better, the biggest issue is that his ability to create off the dribble by attacking the rim is highly limited (though a step above the dreadful 2011). His scoring is highly opportunistic (lots of easy buckets, fast-break capitalization). This isn't a bad thing, it's just not as good as doing what he does in 09/10/13/14.

Jumper is inconsistent, his outside shooting is poor, especially during the playoffs. The regular season % looks nice because of a hot streak early in the season and then selective shooting later on. He's not as good as 09/10/11 IMO and nowhere near where he'd be in 13 and 14. His post game is average; he's still not entirely comfortable playing down low back to basket, and he actually lacks the mid-post face-up game that he had in say 2010 (where he could exploit a quick explosive step and get to the rim easily). More than anything he's just shooting turnarounds on the baseline (2012 Finals are the major PS exception, Durant/Harden/etc. are not exactly post-defenders). When he's hot this makes for an impressive display (Game 6 vs. Boston), but it's never going to be as reliable/consistent/threatening as finishing around the basket. He's starting to develop an off-ball scoring game but it's not nearly being used frequently enough or well enough to get the kinds of looks he gets these days. His ability to create off the dribble is hampered; little explosion and ball-control/agility to be able to drive to the rim or find a seam, and inconsistent jumper means devalues his midrange creation a bit (though it's his best season inside 10-15ft, he was creating a lot fadeaways off backdowns).

I encourage you to watch the 2012 playoffs again and focus on how the defenses were playing him. Then do the same with 13/14 (particularly Mil/Chicago/2013 SAS/2014 IND). Look at the wall that these teams were building in the paint and the aggressive attempts to pressure/shade any time James was even making a catch on the perimeter and then consider the kind of coverage/strategy that's being employed against him in 2012 (hint: it was unnecessary to devote the same kind of defensive attention to James in 2012 as he just wasn't the kind of threat that demanded it). Toss 13 James on the 2012 Heat and either he puts up even more impressive numbers, or the defenses adjust and Miami's offense goes into hyper-drive as it did in 7/8 series since the 2012 Finals (14 Finals is the exception). Throw 14 James in and the difference might be even greater, though he's not as good as 12/13 defensively so the overall effect would not be the same.

Thoughts on Miami Lebron - Case for 13 and 14

Spoiler:

Basketball ability wise, yes, 2014 LeBron was more diverse offensively but 12 LeBron still averaged 27 PPG on 61% TS. As an overall player I am taking 12 LeBron over 14 for an entire season. If we are talking about one game, I will probably go with 13 LeBron.

But this is completely misleading AND putting too much stock in the box-score. The way teams defended 12 Lebron and 14 Lebron was very different, 14 Lebron just demands SO MUCH more attention, and to boil it down to 27 on 61% TS vs. 27 on 65% TS makes the difference look a lot smaller than it actually is.

There is literally nothing on the offensive end that 2012 did better than 2014.

Among his 4 Miami seasons, here is how I would rank these abilities:

-Creating midrange jumpers off the dribble - 14/13, 11, 12
-Creating three point jumpers off the dribble - 14, 13, 11/12
-Getting to the basket off the dribble and collapsing the defense - 14, 13, Large Gap, 12, 11
-Low-post B2B basket creation - 14, Large Gap, 13, 12, 11
-Low-post B2B playmaking - 14, 13, 12, 11
-Low/Mid-post face-up/triple threat - 14, 13, 12, 11
-Creating midrange jumpers off the ball (off screens, off curls, via movement, etc.) - 14, 13, 12/11
-Hard/random cuts to the basket - 14, small gap, 13, 12, 11
-Spot-up 3 point shooting - 14/13, Large gap, 11, 12
-Finishing at the basket - 14, 13, 12, 11
-Transition finishing - 14/13, 12, 11
-Transition playmaking - roughly even
-PnR playmaking - 14/13, 12, 11
-PnR creation - 14/13, gap, 12, 11

Again, the kind of attention defenses put towards slowing down 2014 Lebron was just vastly different from 2012. Even if we're talking strictly box-score line, the kind of scoring numbers 2014 Lebron would have put up in the RS and PS if he had been defended the same way as 2012 was would have been mind-boggling (but of course, this would be idiotic on the part of defenses).

There's just a huge gulf in slashing ability between 11/12 and 13/14. His PnR mentality in 2011 and 2012 is all about patience, hope that defenders over commit and try to force rotations, take advantage of the attention that Wade (who when healthy was probably more disruptive as an offensive player in 2012 than Lebron was, but no longer had the stamina to sustain it) and Bosh draw, and swing it over to the shooters, almost never to get into the paint himself and force a collapse. In 2011, he's only getting into the paint when A.) there's a wide open lane, B.) in transition, and C.) starting to find seams off the ball for hard cuts (this starts happening later in the season), everything else is pull up in the midrange/from 3 occasionally (though this is phased out later in the season as he becomes more selective with his shots) and the occasional spot-up, otherwise very little off-ball activity. This is essentially his entire 2011 offensive game.

In 2012, we get more of the same, but he's added two additional tools to allow him to get to the basket. A.) He's begun fiddling in the post (but overall his post-game is highly overrated, he's got a half-decent right jump-hook, but largely he's reliant on baseline turnarounds over the right shoulder), and B.) he's shed a tiny bit of weight and has enough explosion to occasionally catch defenders off-guard in short triple-threat blowbys. Still not an elite slasher, and the larger problem is that outside of 10 feet, his jumpshot has actually regressed to pre-09 levels (his 3PT% is inflated this year due to selective shooting, he was a better outside shooter in 09/10/11/13/14/15). The improvements were enough that he's a slightly better offensive player than 2011, but he just DOES NOT have apply the kind of basket pressure that forces collapses and dynamic strategy implementation (drop the PnR, strongside paint overload, etc.) through his slashing that 13/14 do (as do 08/09/10/15).

No one defends him the way he was defended by Boston back in 08-10 and the way almost every sound team plays him now, because it was not necessary! There was no need to take the hazard of helping off the corners to try and wall of Lebron from getting to the basket at will because he was simply not going to be able to do it. Then, 13 Lebron comes around having shed more weight and regained much of his lost explosiveness and boom, he's getting to the basket at will and finishing damn near 80% when he gets there. The EV on a Lebron drive now skyrockets, as does the volume of these drives. With no help, this may be the deadliest consistent attack option from the wing that the league has ever seen, particularly considering the kind of shooting (Allen/Battier/Bosh/Miller/etc.) and movement (Wade/Allen) that Miami surrounded him with in 2013. He also makes major strides in his jumpshooting all-around, becoming an elite spot-up outside shooter, elite midrange shooter, and regaining his pullup 3 point shooting ability from pre-2012. The post-game is perhaps very slightly more refined, but the big change is that now he's able to utilize his quickness advantage to get to the basket as well.

And what was the result of all of this? Miami's offense and Lebron both look like the GOAT for like 50-60 games. The PS numbers are misleading, 2013 is absolutely a better postseason run than 2012. The decline in numbers from the RS is largely due to Wade's deteriorated health. His constant movement/cutting/curling action was absolutely CRUCIAL in driving the Miami offense, which dipped from like +10 in the 2nd half of the RS to +9ish in the postseason, but dropped quite dramatically in terms of ORTG. This seems like a small difference, but moving the needle from +9 to +10 is insanely hard to do, and a one-point shift at that level is like the equivalent of moving a 0 to a +3; simply put it takes a hell of an offensive player to pull that off, and Wade's decline can be blamed for that drop off. That's not to say I want to crucify Wade, health was clearly an issue, but this is what I would point to first for the seemingly "underwhelming" nature of that PS run.

Typically, when well coached defenses wall-off the paint, it is the corner shooters they will sag off of in order to reinforce the interior, and rely on sound rotations/recoveries to compensate. Lebron is typically able to make this strategy pay as he's so gifted at manipulating those rotations to the point where he's able to hit that corner guy in a manner that allows him to shoot it before a recovery. However, the SG in this situation that was providing spacing was not a 3pt shooter, it was Wade with his relentless middle/interior action. When he's playing healthy, this isn't a problem, in fact it adds a layer of dynamism to such an offense, beyond the conventional SG standing in the corner. BUT when he's NOT healthy, it screws the offense over to a greater degree; because his man can stay in the middle and not have to be concerned if/when he's left wide-open outside because he's not hitting that shot at a rate that justifies covering it as opposed to stopping Lebron ALL game long, so long as James/Wade shared the court.

San Antonio, Milwaukee, and Chicago ALL took advantage of this, and we saw the effect on Lebron's box-score line, it didn't look anything like the godly stats we were used to seeing from Jan-April. Yet there was really no major change in how Lebron was approaching the game (other than when he just started firing off from outside when defenders went under in games 4/7 against SAS). His pressure on those 3 defenses and his impact on Miami's offense was largely unchanged from that insane RS run, but the circumstances did not allow him to continue to pile up box-score numbers. HOWEVER, guess what team did not play him that way. Indiana, the best defensive team in the league in 2013. They relied on their strong perimeter personnel to simply play him straight-up, and hoped that Hibbert's strong rotations would deter his forays into the paint. Unsurprisingly, this didn't work. Lebron had his best box-score series of the 2013 run and the Indiana defense was essentially lit up.

At this point I've begun to stray off topic, so let me be clear as to what I am trying to illustrate. 2013 was a superior postseason run and performance by Lebron than 2012 was, and taking the box-score performance differences between the two as the opposite conclusion is plain and simple wrong. This is not a matter of preference, there are very real trackable things going on ON the court that justify this position. Simply put, the insane strategies that 3 of his 4 2013 opponents used to try and wall him off from the paint were only moderately successful (if at all) due to the declined performance of the surrounding cast, but were conducive to weaker looking stats. 2012 Lebron just lacked the abilities to even need such strategies being employed against him, and the fact that 2013 WAS needing such strategies is in itself a HUGE indicator of 2013's vast superiority.

Now, the reason this pertains to 2014 Lebron is because 2014 Lebron was ****ing even better than 2013 (talking about just offense here). He shed a bit more weight and became even more of a slashing threat (not as big of a jump as 12->13), but more importantly, his skill game was taken to a whole new level - the spot-up 3 point shooting was about the same but he got better at moving off the ball to get himself these shots. The pullup three-point shooting was even better than 13 (the 3P% decline from 13->14 is due to him taking more 3 pointers off the dribble, not a decline in shooting ability). But of course, the biggest improvement was the post-game. I've spoken verbatim on how I think his 12 post-up ability was overrated, and following the 13 Finals I think one of the first things I highlighted was the need for him to make the back-to-basket game something he was truly good at instead of just something he could say he had in his arsenal. And boy, did he do so; the improvement in footwork was just night-and-day - he's no Kobe or Hakeem, but there's a clear fluidity as opposed to the robotic-ness of years past, and that drop-step is just murderous. He improved his smarts down there as well; his ability to seal off his man and take advantage of fronting was deadly, getting good low-post positioning is underrated and he became one of the best at doing so. He also improved his playmaking sense from down there, as he got more comfortable/patient in drawing defenders and then making a quick pass-out for a perimeter swing (hockey assist) as opposed to trying to make a risky direct feed to the open man.

Quite simply put, these improvements meant that there was yet another gap in the pressure that 14 James applied to defenses vs. 13 Lebron, and we've already established the massive improvement that 13 was over the other Miami years. He's got the experience of the 13 finals to allow him to tackle teams that employ that kind of strategy, and notably, throughout the regular season, we saw a huge uptick in the amount of teams that were willing to cover him this way, and yet it barely mattered.

At this point, the offensive gap between 14 and 12 is vast, more than enough IMO to overcome the defensive advantage of 12. I've come to value his consistency on that end in 2012 quite a bit more than I did at the time, but I just can't brush aside the kind of heights that his 14 offense is touching. This is the only version of Lebron offensively that I'd consider on par with peak Jordan; other seasons come close (09/10/13), but they don't quite matchup with his insane 90-93 ability (though Lebron closes the gap through defense).

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Devil's advocate response:

I agree with most of this post but I can meet you guys in a middle ground. Why his results so outweighed what his actual basketball abilities were was because he started dabbling as a 4 and with the post game.

Teams reacted very poorly to both due to unfamiliarity and the fact that even 12 Bron with his diminished abilities is an insane mismatch at the 4. He improved faster than opponents could scout him in 13/14 but 12 Bron would have struggled against the schemes teams eventually developed to stop him at the 4 but got tons of easy opportunities because it was new wrinkle.

Some examples of what I mean.
-Teams disrespected Bron and switched a lot of Bron/ Battier pick and rolls precisely due to the reasons SSB is talking about. Bron is going to have an easier time beating Brandon Bass one on one than Paul Pierce.
-Well **** Bron outweighs the guy he is guarding by 40 pounds we should probably double team the post. Bron posts up to find open shooters more so than just shoot the baseline fadeaway. (Finals was an exaggerated example of this since Harden and Durant really couldn't handle Bron down there but most of his post ups were more to facilitate than to score).
-Wait a minute Bron is setting a screen???? How do I defend this???? PANIC!!. Then you just see him slip and get an easy layup.

Good coaching by Spo, compressed schedules due to the lockout, no practice means that teams never had a chance to really practice a scheme to stop this at all. And it was a dabble in the regular season but enough to get him a bit more efficiency/ box score stats. Then when they went all in due to Bosh's injury and Bron at the 4 ended up merking Indiana, Boston and OKC but teams hadn't caught up yet in terms of how to handle it.

That's my main theory on why results so outweighed his abilities that year. You can say Lebron took advantage of how defenses were guarding him/ unable to guard him at the 4 and that's why it was such an effective season and I wouldn't disagree with you. I'd also say that he was no where close to the ability he had in 09-10, 13-15.

Case for 2010

Spoiler:

Introduction

I've always wanted to take a deeper look into these two seasons. Comparison is inevitable (coincidentally both are 25 and are just coming off their top box-score production seasons), but I want to just get some discussion going.

We have Jordan's famous "Archangel" stretch in 89 following the March 8th loss to Boston (in which he did not play). And we have Lebron's similar stretch in 2010 following Mo Williams' injury in late January. Both guys basically took on super ball dominant roles (not necessarily just high USG%), and we saw monster assist numbers from both (in Jordan's case, big rebound numbers as well). How was the team performance affected? I've posted extensive data at the end of the post.

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Discussion

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James

With James, we see similar shifts in production. Drop in scoring rate and efficiency (he was actually matching Jordan's pre-Archangel scoring rate before this shift, on 35% 3P shooting to boot), complemented by a jump in AST% and a drop in TOV%.

Cleveland's offense sees a MAJOR jump, shifting from +3.8 (elite) in the first 44 games with Lebron to a staggering +7.0 in the last 32 games with him. However, we also see a clear dropoff in defense, (-3.1 -> -1.6), though that can be somewhat attributed to the introduction of Jamison, and the inconsistent perimeter roster outside of Parker. Which brings to light the inconsistent roster overall; in these 32 games, this is the kind of minute breakdown we're looking at:

Lebron, 32 G, 1263 MP
Parker, 32 G, 899 MP
Varejao, 28 G, 751 MP
Hickson, 31 G, 710 MP
Williams, 22 G, 694 MP
Jamison, 20 G, 673 MP
West, 20 G, 538 MP
Gibson, 17 G, 430 MP
Shaq, 15 G, 377 MP
Moon, 24 G, 339 MP
Ilgauskas, 17 G, 335 MP

Getting back to the offense, what drives the shift is a clear jump in eFG% and a clear drop in TOV%. TOV% is largely going to be a result of increasing Lebron's ball dominance, which cuts the possession time of weaker ball-handlers/controllers, and allows others to be put into easier positions to score, while having to do less of the creation themselves (creation of high percentage shots at and closer to the basket, the same effect we saw with Jordan).

The eFG% jump would suggest that we may have also seen improved 3P shooting, but again, remember the inconsistent roster. 3PA goes from representing roughly 20% of all possessions to 23%, (18 3PA/G ->21 3PA/G), however, eFG% on 3s declines from 61.1% in the pre-PG stretch, to 53.7% in the PG stretch, despite overall eFG% rising from 53.1% to 54.3%. What that suggests is that Lebron's volume creation on 3s AND inside shots rose, but the Cavaliers were not capitalizing as well as they could have, due to circumstances that weren't necessarily in control. That makes the improvement/emphasis on inside scoring even more impressive and dramatic, and I'll have to dig a bit deeper to look for shifts in that regard. What I can point out, is that James' free throw rate jumped from an impressive .478 to a staggering .547, and yet on the team level there is virtually no shift in free throw rate. To me, that (and the drop in TOV%) may be an indication of lots of open shots created at the basket, with such little defensive pressure that free throw rate was actually declining.

Varejao/Hickson come to mind here, they were both highly effective finishers on the PnR with James. In this stretch, we see Varejao shoot 65.7% from the floor (9.1 pts/g, 67.0% TS, up from 8.4 pts/g, 55.6% TS ), and we see Hickson shoot 56.6% from the floor (10.7 pts/g, 59.0% TS, up from 6.6 pts/g, 56.9% TS).

I also want to discuss the introduction of Jamison here, who may or may not have been all that helpful in the offense, despite being a stretch 4. In 11 Lebron PG games without him the offense was at +8.7, (Shaq played all 11 G), but in 21 Lebron PG games with him, the offense dropped to +6 (with Shaq playing in only 4 G). The presence of Shaq as a post/finishing threat may have been more helpful than the spacing effect that Jamison yielded, and the defensive woes of playing them together are also clear.

So what we're considering, is that give James an effective PnR finisher, and provide any sort of spacing and you're likely to get a strong offense. Have two of them, and provide a bunch of inconsistent above average outside shooters, and a half present low-post presence and you can probably yield an elite offense. Add in a second creator and consistent elite outside shooting (2013 Miami), and what could you get?

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Data

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2010 Cleveland Cavaliers

Full Season

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
90.6     112.1    105.0    6.52   -0.35    6.17   +4.6    -2.2    +6.8

Pre-PG Stretch 44 Games

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Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
90.2     111.4    104.3    6.43   -0.20    6.64   +3.8    -3.1    +6.9

Lebron PG Stretch January 23rd - April 6th, 2010, 32 Games

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
90.7     114.8    105.1    8.84   -1.04    7.24   +7.0    -1.6    +8.6

Four Factors

Full Season

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       53.2%      25.1%       12.7%      .246
Defense       48.2%      77.2%       11.7%      .218

Pre-PG Stretch 44 Games

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              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       53.1%      25.3%       13.5%      .247
Defense       47.5%      77.7%       12.0%      .241

Lebron PG Stretch January 23rd - April 6th, 2010, 32 Games

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       54.3%      25.3%       11.7%      .248
Defense       48.2%      76.5%       11.1%      .193

Lebron James

Average and Per 75 possessions

Full Season

Code: Select all

MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

39.0  29.7  7.3   8.6   41.8%   3.4   12.3%   60.4% +6.1%   33.5%  121
N/A   30.3  7.4   8.7   N/A     3.5   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

Pre-PG Stretch 44 Games

Code: Select all

MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

38.7  29.7  7.1   7.8   40.4%   3.6   12.9%   61.1% +6.8%   34.2%  121
N/A   30.6  7.3   8.0   N/A     3.7   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

Lebron PG Stretch January 23rd - April 6th, 2010, 32 Games

Code: Select all

MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

39.5  29.7  7.5   9.6   43.8%   3.2   11.4%   59.6% +5.4%   33.4%  122
N/A   29.9  7.5   9.7   N/A     3.2   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

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So here's my thought process when considering "best". I care about who/what the best player/peak IS. I don't care about who performed the best given the circumstances (be it by box-score, +/-, "eye-test" or whatever else), whose team performed the best given the circumstances, who had the most impressive looking season, etc. What I care about is that when it comes down to it, which of these players gives me the best shot at a title on ANY team, and to do that, I have to dig deeper than simply looking at what stands out the most.

The ~90-100 games in a season are a showcase for the players to display what their capabilities are; they're pitted against a variety of opposing strategies/schemes (offense AND defense), ~400 different personnel and there's just a VAST amount shown off that goes beyond the box-score, there's so much to take in. So why focus on the glorious 35/9/7 62%TS in a 14 game sample against only 3 teams? Why should everything else observable be secondary? What if Lebron had faced the Thibs/Garnett Celtics that year? Why focus on 66 wins/8.7 SRS when we know that they feasted on weaker opponents at home (39-1 w/Lebron) and held a 3-5 combined record vs. LA/BOS/ORL and 3.7 SRS (with Garnett missing a game in there) and then 2-4 vs Orlando in the postseason. I"m not trying to simply put him or the Cavs down here, but I am trying to add in a little more context. I DO want to entertain hypotheticals though, not nonsensical ones mind you, but at least those that might force me to apply a more cerebral view on these players.

Oftentimes, when I try to do the above, I get the response "But I'm not concerned with what could have happened, I'm concerned with what did happen!". That's all fine and well, but then we're not answering the plain and simple question "Who was the best", instead we're answering "Who was the best...given their teammate/roster construction, team coaching/strategy, opposing coaching/strategy, matchups faced, league-wide injuries, etc." and that's not quite the same.

So let's dive in for a second. Let's take a look at 09 vs. 10. The key arguments I see are better record (though the 2010 Cavs were 60-16 with Lebron IN and 1-5 with him out), better RS stats due to fewer minutes in 09 and better PER, and far better postseason stats. On the other hand RAPM seems to like 2010 better (+9.6 vs. +8.1 on the GotBuckets.com set). Yet, so often when I see a summary or comparison and RAPM is brought up, there's rarely ever any effort to discern why this difference exists, its simply pointed to as another stat, and then a counter-argument (vs 2010) is levied via box-score. So let's instead answer that why right now.

Defensively the two years are similar (I personally rate them the same, both slightly lower than his best Miami years). 09 has an arguably slightly better motor and rebounding, 2010 has better instincts and smarter reads/reactions/rotations (less blocks because he's in better position to deter, less steals because he's gambling a bit less and is forcing weaker plays via the threat of his presence in the passing lanes). Transition is about the same, maybe slightly better awareness and hands in 2010.

There are clear improvements in his offensive game (which is where most of the RAPM difference shows up). 2010 Lebron is better equipped than 2009 Lebron to bolster teams on offense AND face tougher defenses. He's developed his ball-control/handling a bit, particularly in being able to set himself up for jumpshots in the mid-range (though also from deep) by creating separation AND he's improved his shooting mechanics. As a result he's a better pullup shooter from midrange AND outside (which greatly expands his on-ball game and makes him a greater live-ball threat and by definition more deadly initiating offense), his 3-point shot as a whole is improved due to the mechanics (% is misleading, his volume is way up, and he's being assisted on far less than 09 because of his ability to now just pullup for tough 3 pointers which is bonkers for spacing even if they're hit at like a 30% clip) and this makes him far more dynamic in the halfcourt creating for himself. He's also added upper body mass without sacrificing explosion/first-step quickness, which makes him a deadlier finisher on the drive going in either direction, better finisher in the lane (one of his top years from 3-10 feet), but also makes him a tougher guard in the low-post, where he's dabbling a little bit (though focusing on playmaking than scoring - he's beginning to learn that he'll always draw help or draw a foul and taking advantage of it on occasion). This combined with the improved shooting makes it so that he can better balance his attack when he's looking to create, and serves to enhance his slashing game (09 and 10 are the peak of his slashing game - in 09 defenses hadn't quite adjusted to his improvements/progression yet so the slashing yielded better stats, in 10 defenses had begun to adjust, so instead the slashing yielded greater team lift and as a result notably more assists- similar to how JLei describes 12 vs. 13/14 above). Also now dabbling in the mid-post, not much back-to-basket play but he can use his quickness out of a face-up to blow by defenders quickly for high % shots, and he loves reversing the ball over the top to hit the corners. So we've got all of those improvements, another year of experience, and IMO he's got better game management skills - better at controlling pace/tempo, better at reading his teammates and getting/finding them in good position, better at recognizing when/when not to be aggressive, etc.

Recognize all of this (and consider my post from above as well) and I think it starts to become clear why the impact stats tend to prefer this yea. On the defensive end, this version of Lebron is more or less the same as the year before, and on offense, he's pretty much better at everything, and it's being captured. He's less likely to be slowed down by a defense, and imparts a greater non-box-score impact on his team due to the refinements in his game. I don't care that 2009 Lebron was able to look far more successful in the playoffs given what he had - I'm confident that if we throw 09 and 10 Lebron into 10, 100, 1000 different situations, on average 2010 will give you the better results, and that's what matters to me, not simply "what happened" because IMO that's too constrained of a sample/perspective.

Real quick, early Miami seasons before diving into 2013. 2012 IMO is and will be Lebron's most overrated season (again, mostly because of honing in on playoff results and box-score). Best defense of his career (2013 had stretches that were better but the motor and consistency in 2012 were superior), but his offensive game is highly limited. He gained major upper body weight in 2011 which drastically hampered his quickness/explosion/coordination/fluidity and basically lost his bread-and-butter slashing game. What made him so unique, deadly, and impactful in the first place (and what made 09 and 10 such Titanic seasons) was gone and we were left with a Lebron that was a shell of himself, arguably the 2nd best player on his own team and nowhere near the GOAT level player we had just seen in the two years prior. Fortunately this forced him to work on his skillset quite a bit, and in the 11 offseason he also shed some weight. It wasn't quite enough though, while he did regain a small amount of his fluidity back in 2012, he still wasn't anywhere near 09/10 or what he would be in 13-15 either. His jumper also unfortunately regressed from 2011 (might've been a hand injury early in the season), but beginning to dabble in the post, improved on-ball creation skills and slightly improved physicality helped him ramp up his offense a bit. Couple that with the improved defense and this is still a hell of a year, but really this is no better than the 5th best version of Lebron IMO (09/10/13/14 maybe 15), his offense was simply underwhelming - highly opportunistic scoring, relatively weak ability to create (hope for over-commit on PnR, little to no slashing, just not a lot of impact beyond the basic box-score). In the playoffs he had long stretches of just not imprinting any impact on the game - when the jumpshot was off and the middle even slightly loaded up there were times when he displayed no option other than just stand in a corner and well, do nothing. No threat of movement, no establishing position, just a whole load of nothing - non-impact play, something that I just don't see from 09/10/13/14/15 because of the greater diversity of options and this simply does not cut it. Game 6 is awesome, all the credit in the world to him for pulling that one off, but one game does not make a player/season - I just don't have the confidence in this Lebron's skills/ability to lead me to a title in the way that I do the others I keep championing. With regards to the actual run itself, I think the competition is a bit overrated - level of offensive play increased as the lockout season progressed, thus the defensive ratings the Heat faced oversell how good the defenses actually work (though this could then inversely be a credit to their defensive performance, though outside of OKC they mostly faced weak offensive squads).

Now, moving onto 2013, he sheds some considerable weight (to the point where he's now resembling the old Lebron and where his slashing game is starting to get back to best in the league level again) AND makes some major improvements to his skills (notably getting more comfortable in the post, playing more frequently/smarter off the ball AND acquiring an elite jumpshot from all areas on the floor). Now things get a little interesting, because this is how I personally rate the three seasons we're discussing at this point.

09 +7.50 (+5.50 Off/+2.00 Def)
10 +8.00 (+6.00 Off/+2.00 Def)
13 +8.00 (+5.75 Off/+2.25 Def)

The reason I favor 2013 most of all is portability, and a large part of that is defense, as defense is inherently additive vs. offense (don't have to worry about one player controlling the ball on that end - hell off-ball/help defense tend to be more important that single coverage anyway!). Best season on the glass of his career, probably better rotations (fewer errors/misses) than 2012, better lateral movement as well due to the shed weight and there's an explosive activeness to his defense at times in the postseason, but there's a drop in consistency and he has issues sustaining it (lazy 1st half of RS, gets gassed in the late season) so I've penalized him a little bit relative to 2012.

Offensively the changes I mentioned above lead to some pretty drastic improvements (+4.5 O in 2012 -->+5.75 O 2013), he's got his slashing game back, though not quite at 09/10 levels, still leagues ahead of 11/12. He's now a highly effective floor spacer, whether up top or in the corner, and he's constantly moving off the ball to put himself into positions that can pressure the defense. 2010 probably applies more disruption to defenses, but 2013 applies more dynamic pressure, and this is very valuable in terms of roster/lineup diversity - 2013 gives you far more wiggle room for success, he can fill a lot more gaps across the board (and all of this goes relative to 09 as well), without yielding his BnB; he's like diet Larry Bird with better athleticism -> slashing. I see this season as pretty close to 2010 ITO offense, and I can be swayed either way. I DO prefer this season for offensive portability though, the improved off-ball/post game combined with the insane level of outside shooting (amongst the top spot-up 3 point shooters in the league - so valuable in today's era) and its hard to argue with this being a more meshable skillset than 2010 even if I think 2010 has slightly more potential for impact (though at higher and higher team levels 13 becomes more and more preferable).

Lastly, 2014. I've rambled on way longer than I should have so I'll keep it as simple as possible. This is his clear offensive peak. Takes everything he does in 2013 and does it better in 2014, MUCH better post-game (to the point where in 14 and 15 IMO he's the league's best low-post player), MUCH better game off the ball (guess who scored a greater % of their buckets off the ball, Durant or James?), better shooting (mid-range regresses a bit in the RS but by the playoffs his jumpshot's on fire from virtually everywhere, 3 point shooting is a little bit better as he incorporates the 2010 pullup from outside again). But above all else, after shedding some more weight, he's brought his athleticism back to the closest its ever been to the late Cleveland years and pretty much brings his slashing game nearly on par with those years. Put it all together and we're looking at a near GOAT level offensive player. Unfortunately he regresses quite a bit defensively, there's just no consistency to his effort in the RS, and at times even his smarts seem absent (this is mostly laziness/poor stamina, given that in 2015 he looked VERY good). There's improvement in the 2nd half of the season, slightly better effort and activity, and in the postseason there are times where he looks like his old self, but its evident that he has a hard time sustaining it and while he's still a positive, he's a long way down from the crazy stuff we were seeing in years prior. Still, the offense makes up for it, and this is actually the postseason that I'm most impressed with from him out of all years.

SUMMARY: 2013 is my pick. Not his best offense/defense/stamina/athleticism, but at the end of the day its the best combination of everything and a year in which he displayed portable/scale-able two-way play.

This is a fine post but the bulk of it directly contradicts the opening:

So here's my thought process when considering "best". I care about who/what the best player/peak IS. I don't care about who performed the best given the circumstances (be it by box-score, +/-, "eye-test" or whatever else), whose team performed the best given the circumstances, who had the most impressive looking season, etc.

The bulk of your analysis plainly reveals that you determine peak seasons by primarily using on/off stats which you label impact and skill-set analysis ("eye test") and place little importance on the box score.

You engage in heavy skill-set analysis for the 2010 season and point to the better RAPM score which is consistently incorrectly labeled impact on this board as proof that your skill-set analysis is correct. Reading this post I don't know how anyone could think you aren't driven by skill-set analysis and RAPM. That is your criteria and your opening should reflect that. Self-deception is harmful.

[ceiling raiser]

*clipped*

If I'm understanding SSB's position correctly (and he can feel free to jump in if I'm incorrect), he is noting that his goal is to isolate a player's "goodness" (for a specific year) in a vacuum. What his post seems to imply to me is how a season plays out for a player (his "performance") isn't a perfect indicator of his "goodness", as it is just one specific actualization. The impact metrics and skillset analysis seem to be a part of how SSB answers the "goodness" question, but he doesn't produce hard rankings from them.

[SideshowBob]

This is a fine post but the bulk of it directly contradicts the opening:

So here's my thought process when considering "best". I care about who/what the best player/peak IS. I don't care about who performed the best given the circumstances (be it by box-score, +/-, "eye-test" or whatever else), whose team performed the best given the circumstances, who had the most impressive looking season, etc.

The bulk of your analysis plainly reveals that you determine peak seasons by primarily using on/off stats which you label impact and skill-set analysis ("eye test") and place little importance on the box score.

You engage in heavy skill-set analysis for the 2010 season and point to the better RAPM score which is consistently incorrectly labeled impact on this board as proof that your skill-set analysis is correct. Reading this post I don't know how anyone could think you aren't driven by skill-set analysis and RAPM. That is your criteria and your opening should reflect that. Self-deception is harmful.

If I revised and wrote "ability to impact" or "goodness" instead of "impact" would that sound better?

FWIW, I wasn't trying to point to 2010 RAPM as a confirmation of my opinion (I'm confident enough in it already); I thought the skill/ability breakdown conveyed that much better and I brought up RAPM as another data point AND to explain why there might be a difference in 09 and 10 (rather than have it substantiate my opinion). RAPM is just another data point, I didn't feel like I was primarily driven by it (or On/Off).

Actually, aside from that reference, I'm a bit confused as to how I came off as being highly RAPM driven, especially given the later more detailed breakdowns from page 3 (and on that point, my evaluations of Lebron would rank him quite a bit differently than any version of +/- or RAPM would). I do constantly reference the +/- / SRS scale that I use, but that's really just a scale (I'm subjective trying to quantify their goodness ITO unadjusted +/-), more than anything I use it to give myself a basis of relativity/comparison.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the breadth of your stance - maybe what you're pointing to is the fact that even after my own analysis, I rank players on a +/- scale (be it RAPM or SRS or whatever). If that's where you're coming from then I follow, but I don't know that that's the same as being heavily influenced by RAPM.

*clipped*

If I'm understanding SSB's position correctly (and he can feel free to jump in if I'm incorrect), he is noting that his goal is to isolate a player's "goodness" (for a specific year) in a vacuum. What his post seems to imply to me is how a season plays out for a player (his "performance") isn't a perfect indicator of his "goodness", as it is just one specific actualization. The impact metrics and skillset analysis seem to be a part of how SSB answers the "goodness" question, but he doesn't produce hard rankings from them.

Yes, perhaps I need to be more careful with some terms here.

[Clyde Frazier]

~

Vote: 09 as wade's peak

I think wade's 09 season specifically is one of the most impressive in NBA history. He was really the only significant constant on a team that didn’t have much depth, and many players in and out of the lineup. Of the team’s 5 other leading scorers, 2 were rookies beasley and chalmers, jermaine o’neal only played in 27 games, and marion in 48. Haslem was their one other anchor giving them 10.6 PPG on 55.3% TS and 8.2 RPG. But really, that’s just a slightly above average player.

The 14th ranked SRS heat would eventually lose in 7 games to the 10th ranked SRS hawks (10th in offense, 12 in defense that season). Joe Johnson was held to 17.1 PPG on 49.4% TS and a 94 ORTG in the series. Jermaine O’Neal would go down with an injury, missing 1 game and playing 27 MPG in the series. Wade did all he could go get that team to advance, and it just wasn’t quite enough.

Wade being a 1 man show in 06 is pretty overstated. While Shaq was past his prime, he was still a big part of their finals run. In the 17 playoff games leading up the finals, shaq put up the following:

20.1 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 1.3 APG, .5 SPG, 1.7 BPG, 61.3% FG, 40.3% FT, 58.2% TS

Add that to the attention Shaq gets as soon as he gets position down low, and that’s a pretty nice running mate to have alongside you in the playoffs. Overall, wade to me was a more refined player in 09, and still athletically gifted enough on both ends of the court.

[70sFan]

Sorry trex for my absence. I have busy time right now, so my participation in project is less consistent than I want to be.
After thinking a bit, I would choose 2009 Wade as his peak. He was better pkaymaker that time, had more polished game. While he wasn't as amazing in playoffs as in 2006, it's mainly because of worse team, not his individual performance.

[Clyde Frazier]

~

Trex, I was working on this writeup when dirk got voted in at #18, and forgot to put in my vote for him. Can you add 2009 to the list for dirk as a non unanimous peak year in the peaks project thread as well as threads going forward? I’d been voting for 09 for a few threads prior, thanks.

Might as well put the rest of my writeup here since it’s specifically about peak and dirk getting selected has already passed. My main point here is that dirk had been playing on a 2011 level in the playoffs for a few years, but his teammates failed to step up. That finally changed in 2011, hence the championship run.

2008 - mavs eliminated in 1st round by 5th ranked SRS hornets (5 games)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2008-nba-western-conference-first-round-mavericks-vs-hornets.html

Dirk has an excellent series - 26.8 PPG, 12 RPG, 4 APG, 1.4 BPG on 58.8% TS and 124 ORTG

Terry and bass gave some ok support, but kidd had a substandard series, and Josh Howard was awful on high usage (25.2%) - 12.6 PPG on 38% TS with an 86 ORTG

2009 - mavs win first round series against spurs (ginobili out for series) in 5 games, eliminated in 2nd round by 8th ranked SRS nuggets

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2009-nba-western-conference-first-round-mavericks-vs-spurs.html

Usage spread across the board pretty equally between dirk, josh howard, terry and barea. Terry is the only one who really had a bad series, and the mavs took advantage of ginobili’s absence. Duncan had an ok series, but was more or less neutralized by dirk’s highly efficient production.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2009-nba-western-conference-semifinals-mavericks-vs-nuggets.html

Now we get back to where dirk is pretty much unstoppable, and his teammates didn’t step up. His monster #s included 34.4 PPG, 11.6 RPG, 4 APG, .8 SPG, 1 BPG on 66% TS and 131 ORTG. Terry was barely average putting up 15.2 PPG on 53.3% TS, and howard had another awful series, nearly rivaling dirk in usage (27.5%), yet putting up 12.8 PPG on 43.4% TS with an 89 ORTG. Kidd at 35 pretty much did as much as you could expect at that point in his career.

2010 - mavs eliminated in 1st round by 9th ranked SRS spurs in 6 games

This series continued a trend of terry being wildly inconsistent for the mavs in the playoffs. Yes, he was fringe AS caliber at best, but relied on as a second option, and many times didn’t step up. Dirk again was stellar - 26.7 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 3 APG, .8 SPG, .7 BPG on 64.3% TS and 129 ORTG. Terry put up a paltry 12.7 PPG on 50% TS and 104 ORTG. Butler had an average series with 19.7 PPG on 53.2% TS and 101 ORTG. Kidd and Marion were terrible, barely cracking 8 PPG on 46.8% and 42.% TS respectively.

2011 - when everything finally changed outside of dirk being incredible - NBA champs

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-western-conference-first-round-trail-blazers-vs-mavericks.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-western-conference-semifinals-mavericks-vs-lakers.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-western-conference-finals-thunder-vs-mavericks.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html

Click thru all 4 series, and you’ll see multiple guys with great series, along with dirk’s consistent dominance. The addition of tyson chandler was also a perfect complement to dirk at center, something he never had before. The 2 of them spread the floor in such different ways that it opened it up for everyone else.

We get to the finals where dirk still has a solid series, but just not on the level as the rest of his finals run. In past years, this may have been the end for the mavs, but terry flat out brought it - 18 PPG, 2 RPG, 3.2 APG, 1.3 SPG on 60.5% TS and 122 ORTG.

So there you have it. Dirk was really on the 2011 level since at least 08, and possibly even better around 09. It just doesn’t get talked about enough.

[RSCD3_]

Since it hasnt been determined yet my case for 2009 as Kobe's peak

In your opinion how much of his 09 playoff success was due to maybe easier opponents? (in comparison to 08 ie)

By comparison

1ST Round

2008 Denver 3.71 SRS, 51 Wins, -1.2 RelDrtg
2009 Utah: 2.37 SRS, 48 Wins, -1.0 RelDRTG

WCSF

2008 Utah: 6.86 SRS, 54 Wins, -1.0 RelDrtg
2009 Rockets: 3.73 SRS, 53 Wins, -4.3 RelDRTG

WCF

2008 Spurs 4.73 SRS, 55 Wins, -5.7 RelDRTG
2009 Nuggets: 3.13 SRS, 54 Wins, -1.5 RelDRTG

Finals

2008 Celtics: 9.30 SRS, 66 Wins, -8.6 DRTG
2009 Magic: 6.48 SRS, 59 Wins, -6.9 RelDRTG

Averages

2008 6.12 SRS, 57.1 Wins -4.32 RelDRTG
2009 3.87 SRS, 53.5 Wins, -3.42 RelDRTG

Conclusion while the teams kobe may have faced were slightly better in 08, the defenses he faced where about the same. Not to mention his 2008 Finals was pretty poor. Since the teams he faced in 08 were stronger than 09 but relatively close defensively, the offensive edge was where a lot of the margin comes from since i havent been that high on kobe's defense i dont attribute much of his success towards better teams on the defensive end and thus i look more towards defensive ratings in the playoffs.

Also here's the RelDRTG's before the finals

2008: -2.64
2009:-2.60

And then in the finals he faces two dominant defensive teams

Here's what he puts up

2008 25.7 PPG on 50.5 TS%, 5.0 APG on 1.73 AST%-TOV% Ratio, 98 ORTG
2009 32.4 PPG on 52.5 TS%, 7.4 APG on 3.69 AST%-TOV% Ratio, 111 ORTG

The main crux of the argument is that 2008 and 2009 are relatively close and then in the playoffs stay the same. In the finals, Kobe plays poorly in one and admirably in the other. The scoring is still a little inefficient, his volume has increased though and his playmaking was fabulous, the assist numbers resemble a prime lebron series and it seemed he really boosted the team in this one. Do you see kobe's 2008 as clearly ahead of 2009 in the RS or PS, because the clear edge in the finals between two such close years before that seals the deals for me.

[70sFan]

I take 2009 as a Kobe peak. The best playoff run and only slightly worse RS than in 2008.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Oh, wait, lol i completely forgot to type here.

Ill keep it brief.

09 for kobe's peak.

he averaged more points than in 08 per 36 minutes, and was more effecient and very, very good from 3.


playoff run obviously.


also, im not sure if it will count now, but 09 for Lebrons peak.

[bastillon]

The finals argument for 09 Kobe doesn't fly because Celtics were on another level defensively compared to Magic.

My peak for Kobe would be 08. The Lakers after Gasol's trade until the finals was probably the best team Kobe has ever anchored. He had an insane run through the western conference. Faced tough teams and destroyed them. 09 Kobe lost a step in athleticism and in terms of stamina. 07 would be a great pick as well though I feel like his playoff performance was sub-par for the standards that he set during the RS. 08 Kobe had a much better performance in the postseason.

[RSCD3_]

The finals argument for 09 Kobe doesn't fly because Celtics were on another level defensively compared to Magic.

My peak for Kobe would be 08. The Lakers after Gasol's trade until the finals was probably the best team Kobe has ever anchored. He had an insane run through the western conference. Faced tough teams and destroyed them. 09 Kobe lost a step in athleticism and in terms of stamina. 07 would be a great pick as well though I feel like his playoff performance was sub-par for the standards that he set during the RS. 08 Kobe had a much better performance in the postseason.

-6.9 vs -8.6 RelDRTG's isn't a huge gap. Both teams were clearly the leagues best defense and the gap in Kobe's play was larger than the difference between defenses in my opinon

[ceiling raiser]

I'd also go with 08 for Kobe's peak. He started working out with Grover the summer before, and added functional strength (emphasis on functional, he was probably bigger in 03).

Skillset vs motor is a very tough question in general though. It's a big part of why a lot of guys don't peak offensively and defensively at the same time.

[bastillon]

The finals argument for 09 Kobe doesn't fly because Celtics were on another level defensively compared to Magic.

My peak for Kobe would be 08. The Lakers after Gasol's trade until the finals was probably the best team Kobe has ever anchored. He had an insane run through the western conference. Faced tough teams and destroyed them. 09 Kobe lost a step in athleticism and in terms of stamina. 07 would be a great pick as well though I feel like his playoff performance was sub-par for the standards that he set during the RS. 08 Kobe had a much better performance in the postseason.

-6.9 vs -8.6 RelDRTG's isn't a huge gap. Both teams were clearly the leagues best defense and the gap in Kobe's play was larger than the difference between defenses in my opinon

That difference does not reflect the difference in their actual performance. During the RS KG was playing like 33 mpg. He was playing almost 40 mpg vs Lakers. That alone completely screws those stats. Not to mention Celtics were coasting at the end of the season because they were locked in as #1 seed in the league. If you look at Celtics performance with KG on the floor vs Magic's performance with Dwight, this is a different league really. Magic barely even beat Celtics without KG (4-3 series in 09), and they lost to Celtics 10 despite KG having the worst season of his career after the surgery. 09 Magic would get wrecked against Celtics 08. It would likely be a sweep or 4-1. That's point number one.

Point number two, you should also take into account team structure. Due to Dwight's presence Magic were dominating in the paint. But they were a poor perimeter defense. They didn't guard pnr exceptionally well, had a long track record of having huge issues against star wings (Wade, LeBron were destroying Magic that year in the RS and PS). Magic's defense wasn't well suited to stopping Lakers offense from a matchup standpoint.

Celtics on the other hand were excellent at stopping perimeter stars. They made LeBron look like a fool in ECSF (35% FG, 5 tov per game, probably the worst series in LeBron's career). That was specifically because of Garnett's presence. KG is an amazing help defender and it seemed like they were 6 people on the court because he would always cover the weak spots in C's defense. KG is obviously a master of pnr defense and Celtics were incredibly dominant in that regard. Moreso than any other team I can think of. So there is a big difference in terms of team strengths - Magic are super dominant inside, mediocre outside; Celtics were dominant overall.

Point number 3, you should take into account the difference in Lakers team structure in 08 vs 09. Lakers 09 were far worse offensively because they implemented Bynum and changed their offensive strategy. In 08 PS Lakers were playing mostly pnr offense with Kobe and Gasol. That was their #1 play when sh*t got tough. 08 Lakers were one of the best offenses of all-time after Gasol joined them. On the other hand, Lakers 09 were defensive-minded and didn't dominate offensively anymore. They were more balanced and their offense didn't revolve around Kobe-Gasol pnr anymore.

[SideshowBob]

I'd go 08 Kobe as well. I think 08/09/10 are similar offensively (in 10 he's up and down with health, though in the last 3 rounds of the PS he's pretty steady). I think he's slightly more consistent defensively in 08 and while I prefer the polish of 09 and 10 on offense, he's also waned off athletically a bit (more in 10 with the health), so his slashing is slightly weaker later on. 08 gives you the best package of everything.

[trex_8063]

Just putting it out there that I'm undecided between '70 and '72 for Frazier's peak season. Both those years have an excellent case, imo.

[70sFan]

Give me 1972. He was clealy the best player on his team, probably the best guard in NBA that year. Excellent playoff run even though he didn't win in the finals. He hardly outplayed West in the finals. One of the best PGs seasons ever.

[Quotatious]

Give me 1972. He was clealy the best player on his team, probably the best guard in NBA that year. Excellent playoff run even though he didn't win in the finals. He hardly outplayed West in the finals. One of the best PGs seasons ever.

I totally agree, I'd pick '72 as Frazier's peak, too, but what do you mean by "hardly outplayed West in the finals"? I mean - it was crystal clear that Frazier outplayed West, by a really big margin (whether West was injured or not, doesn't really matter, because he was still healthy enough to play).

[70sFan]

Give me 1972. He was clealy the best player on his team, probably the best guard in NBA that year. Excellent playoff run even though he didn't win in the finals. He hardly outplayed West in the finals. One of the best PGs seasons ever.

I totally agree, I'd pick '72 as Frazier's peak, too, but what do you mean by "hardly outplayed West in the finals"? I mean - it was crystal clear that Frazier outplayed West, by a really big margin (whether West was injured or not, doesn't really matter, because he was still healthy enough to play).

I mean, Frazier clearly outplayed West (I can even say that he SHUT DOWN him). My English isn't the best, sorry...