Best Athlete: Kevin Durant vs. Anthony Davis vs. Giannis Antetokounmpo

[Whirrun]

The thing about "running the floor" and stuff like that is that Durant doesn't run the floor faster than AD, and that's actually been measured and observed with numbers.

Do you have those measurements? Because according to the numbers not only does transition represent a larger part of KD's offense relative to AD, he also finished with 200 more transition points. In fact, the only players to pick up more points than KD in transition were:

Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Steph Curry
LeBron James
Isiah Thomas
John Wall

Guards & LeBron James.

KD was one of the slowest guys running the floor in his own draft. I'm sure he's faster with a live dribble, but that has less to do with pure athleticism and more to do with skill set.

Is it not possible to improve ones athleticism over time?

He was poor as a leaper too, I don't think he's close to Davis in pure leaping.

Durant recorded a 33.5 inch max vert coming into the league, comparing favorably to:

Howard: 35.5
Jordan: 30.5
Drummond: 33.5
Mcgee: 32.5
Griffin: 35.5

Do you have proof that Davis is a significantly better leaper than these players?

His athleticism being mediocre ended up not mattering offensively because he's so long and skilled,

Why didn't length and skill allow Dirk, KG, Duncan and others to become dominant perimeter players? Or is Durant the most skilled player of all time?

but it's definitely kept him from becoming a game changer on the glass or in the paint defensively.

He averaged .5 less defensive boards than Davis last season, who is overshadowed by many players of similar roles on the boards(Jordan, Drummond, Howard, Whiteside). Meanwhile, KD is the best perimeter rebounder in the NBA next to LBJ.

In fact, both Giannis & Durant finished with more defensive rebounds than Davis last season.

Davis just flat out explodes up and forward in short areas a lot better, that's why he can close distance to block shots in the paint and on the perimeter, get rebounds, create steals, or get more dunks than Durant can.

Durant does all those things, but Davis can't do this:

Watch on YouTube

[pelifan]

I don't know how you can compare Durant and AD but come away with AD being the clearly better athlete and Durant the "least explosive" of the 3. AD and Durant are both 6'11 despite playing different positions. Durant's explosiveness is unreal for that height, he has the first step of a guard. He runs the floor better than AD and has much better lateral quickness. Maybe AD stands out a little more since he is a PF/C and is competing against slower bigs but there is no question that Durant is the quicker and more agile athlete.

AD is an elite athlete for a big, Durant is an elite athlete for a wing. Make AD play the 3 and he has trouble staying in front of other athletic wing players

I can get behind most of the rest of that argument but definitely not this. I'd say Durant quicker, more agile, better balance, Davis faster (seriously this one is the one I feel most confident about), more explosive leaper and better start from stop. Not that the difference is this extreme but think Kyrie Irving vs Russell Westrook.

[Whirrun]

If there is one thing that isn't really effected by a "controlled" environment, it's how fast you can run in a straight line. Kevin Durant isn't special, or even good in that regard. He is with the ball, that's a different issue.

Playing closer to the basket will help, but Durant would play closer to the basket if he were capable of it defensively. You think teams wouldn't love for him to be able to get double digit rebounds and 3 blocks or more night in and night out?

I don't usually compare those types of numbers for different types of players, but they're similar height , and Durant is in your view the best athlete of the bunch clearly, so are his teams completely wasting his potential in the paint defensively? I could see why you'd leave him on the perimeter offensively, but if he has the ability to anchor a defense and they have him guarding the perimeter, that's an issue. I don't think he has the body strength or athletic ability to compete down low for boards, challenging shots, or punching the ball out that Davis does, and nothing at any point in his career shows otherwise.

PS, Kevin Garnett spent the majority of his formative years as a small forward, and was still a substantially better rebounder, shot blocker, and ball thief, even when operating from the perimeter than Durant has been. It's not a positional gap, and it's not KD being lazy or not aware defensively. It's a gap in explosiveness that he can't make up. Like I said, lucky for him(or not lucky, since he put the hours in), he's got the offensive skill set to be an MVP level player.

FYI, Dirk Nowitzki creates from the 3 point line and out better than Davis does too.

I already addressed your point about KD's speed & mobility by pointing out that he's one of the most prolific transition players in the league, in the company of highly athletic guards whom he towers over.

Durant didn't anchor KD's defense because he played with Serge Ibaka & Steve Adams and that would be redundant. In order to avoid diminished returns OKC settled for putting the 6'11 guy with historic mobility on the perimeter because he's fully capable of defending the arch at an elite level, something Davis is not because he lacks the lateral quickness and mobility.

Garnett is a more explosive athlete than Durant? C'mon man.

[Whirrun]

I don't know how you can compare Durant and AD but come away with AD being the clearly better athlete and Durant the "least explosive" of the 3. AD and Durant are both 6'11 despite playing different positions. Durant's explosiveness is unreal for that height, he has the first step of a guard. He runs the floor better than AD and has much better lateral quickness. Maybe AD stands out a little more since he is a PF/C and is competing against slower bigs but there is no question that Durant is the quicker and more agile athlete.

AD is an elite athlete for a big, Durant is an elite athlete for a wing. Make AD play the 3 and he has trouble staying in front of other athletic wing players

I can get behind most of the rest of that argument but definitely not this. I'd say Durant quicker, more agile, better balance, Davis faster (seriously this one is the one I feel most confident about), more explosive leaper and better start from stop. Not that the difference is this extreme but think Kyrie Irving vs Russell Westrook.

Check the post above your own. Don't know how anyone can argue Davis is faster running the floor or from a stop when Durant is so much more dominant in transition and driving to the basket.

[pelifan]

He averaged .5 less defensive boards than Davis last season, who is overshadowed by many players of similar roles on the boards(Jordan, Drummond, Howard, Whiteside). Meanwhile, KD is the best perimeter rebounder in the NBA next to LBJ.

In fact, both Giannis & Durant finished with more defensive rebounds than Davis last season.

Davis just flat out explodes up and forward in short areas a lot better, that's why he can close distance to block shots in the paint and on the perimeter, get rebounds, create steals, or get more dunks than Durant can.

Durant does all those things, but Davis can't do this:

Watch on YouTube

First off, the bolded is the reason why this may very well be the last time I respond to you. Davis played less games. You know that, I know that and everyone knows that. Davis averaged more defensive rebounds, you said so yourself. That's not a reasonable argument you are selectively picking information fitting your perspective. Ignoring Davis' vertical leap when talking about Durant's for example.

secondly none of that play was particularly impressive, there are way better plays than that from Durant. The first step wasn't all that great and neither was the dunk honestly. Davis could definitely do that. He does that in my Draymond Green video just without a late contesting center in the frame who barely even gets off the floor.

[pelifan]

I don't know how you can compare Durant and AD but come away with AD being the clearly better athlete and Durant the "least explosive" of the 3. AD and Durant are both 6'11 despite playing different positions. Durant's explosiveness is unreal for that height, he has the first step of a guard. He runs the floor better than AD and has much better lateral quickness. Maybe AD stands out a little more since he is a PF/C and is competing against slower bigs but there is no question that Durant is the quicker and more agile athlete.

AD is an elite athlete for a big, Durant is an elite athlete for a wing. Make AD play the 3 and he has trouble staying in front of other athletic wing players

I can get behind most of the rest of that argument but definitely not this. I'd say Durant quicker, more agile, better balance, Davis faster (seriously this one is the one I feel most confident about), more explosive leaper and better start from stop. Not that the difference is this extreme but think Kyrie Irving vs Russell Westrook.

Check the post above your own. Don't know how anyone can argue Davis is faster running the floor or from a stop when Durant is so much more dominant in transition and driving to the basket.

So all of the guys who score in transition are guard who have good ballhandling "Eureka I think I see a direct correlation!" Unless you want to argue Harden and Curry are 2 of the fastest guys in the league as well.

[NO-KG-AI]

I can get behind most of the rest of that argument but definitely not this. I'd say Durant quicker, more agile, better balance, Davis faster (seriously this one is the one I feel most confident about), more explosive leaper and better start from stop. Not that the difference is this extreme but think Kyrie Irving vs Russell Westrook.

Check the post above your own. Don't know how anyone can argue Davis is faster running the floor or from a stop when Durant is so much more dominant in transition and driving to the basket.

So all of the guys who score in transition are guard who have good ballhandling "Eureka I think I see a direct correlation!" Unless you want to argue Harden and Curry are 2 of the fastest guys in the league as well.

Yea. It's not even worth it anymore. People are really seeing what they want to see at this point.


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[Magic Giannison]

To begin with you guys and especially NO-KG_AI should read the article about the best body in the NBA.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14927328/milwaukee-bucks-f-giannis-antetokounmpo-nba-most-exceptional-body

Next, i see how crazy underestimated KD and Giannis are as athletes.
On Giannis we got a guy that run the floor with only 2 dribbles , eurosteps from 3 point line and dunk from the free throw line .
We forget how easily he demonstrates his crazy athleticism in every game. That sequence where he grabs the ball dribble the floor , eurosteps Westbrook while at the same time posterizes Ibaka is the perfect showcase of him as athlete.
its one of the reason why Giannis is the best transition player in the league behind only Lerbon .
https://behindthebuckpass.com/2016/04/25/giannis-antetokounmpo-one-best-transition-finishers-nba/


As for KD, i never seen a guys like his size having such crazy control of his body, its amazing. His flexibility is out of this world, moves like a guard and is long enough to made those big strides like Giannis does.


AD is good for his size and especially compared with Big, hence why he excels and is one if not the best in that position but as an athlete he is not better than Giannis and KD.


So my ranking would be:

1: Giannis
2: Durant ( very close )
3:Davis.

[Prez]

I don't get the argument that ballhandling/skillset is the only reason Durant/Giannis can play like perimeter guys while Davis can't. It's not. They actually move like perimeter guys because they have greater hip flexibility, body control and agility. If Davis had the guard-like fluidity to handle the ball like a guard, he'd develop those skills. It's not like he's incapable of those skills or doesn't have the feel for it...this is a guy who played point guard growing up before he grew, he has the smarts and natural feel become a creator off the dribble just like Giannis or Durant...he can't do it because he simply can't move in a way that allows that skillset to flourish.

[Whirrun]

First off, the bolded is the reason why this may very well be the last time I respond to you.

Or maybe the argument just isn't going your way?

Davis played less games. You know that, I know that and everyone knows that. Davis averaged more defensive rebounds, you said so yourself. That's not a reasonable argument you are selectively picking information fitting your perspective. Ignoring Davis' vertical leap when talking about Durant's for example.

Yes, Davis played less games, but if his advantage were as large as you suggested than Durant wouldn't have finished the season with 50 more defensive rebounds despite Davis missing 10 more games. Further, durability is one of the primary attributes of athleticism.

You had no problem comparing their rebounding numbers despite the difference in positional roles and using that as evidence that Davis is the better athlete, so chill with the holier than thou stuff. Fact is, relative to their respective positions, Durant is the superior rebounder, and that's the most appropriate comparison, no?

Yea. It's not even worth it anymore. People are really seeing what they want to see at this point.

I think it's funny that you're trying to spin this as everyone else being homers when the poll reflects diverse opinions, and more people have come out against Davis than for him. Some self reflection is in order, perhaps?

[Magic Giannison]

Since some people will argue he did once or so.









He did and does it all the time.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

[pelifan]

I don't get the argument that ballhandling/skillset is the only reason Durant/Giannis can play like perimeter guys while Davis can't. It's not. They actually move like perimeter guys because they have greater hip flexibility, body control and agility. If Davis had the guard-like fluidity to handle the ball like a guard, he'd develop those skills. It's not like he's incapable of those skills or doesn't have the feel for it...this is a guy who played point guard growing up before he grew, he has the smarts and natural feel become a creator off the dribble just like Giannis or Durant...he can't do it because he simply can't move in a way that allows that skillset to flourish.

So Andrew Wiggins doesn't have hip flexibility because he cant run pick and roll and drive from the perimeter in not a straight line? got it.

GIannis is a crazy kid with the most potential in the NBA. I've said so myself. But a lot of that is skills. Passing, court vision, an maybe soon to be ball handling over either of these players. AD is both longer and more athletic than him and was a better player at the same age when that was literally all he had. He was just a skinny maybe skinnier as well. And before people say Giannis had to adjust to being in the America, AD had to adjust to being 6'10" for all of 3 years.

Yes. that's my only argument. But it's the only one I need.

[Prez]

I don't get the argument that ballhandling/skillset is the only reason Durant/Giannis can play like perimeter guys while Davis can't. It's not. They actually move like perimeter guys because they have greater hip flexibility, body control and agility. If Davis had the guard-like fluidity to handle the ball like a guard, he'd develop those skills. It's not like he's incapable of those skills or doesn't have the feel for it...this is a guy who played point guard growing up before he grew, he has the smarts and natural feel become a creator off the dribble just like Giannis or Durant...he can't do it because he simply can't move in a way that allows that skillset to flourish.

So Andrew Wiggins doesn't have hip flexibility because he cant run pick and roll and drive from the perimeter in not a straight line? got it.

GIannis is a crazy kid with the most potential in the NBA. I've said so myself. But a lot of that is skills. Passing, court vision, an maybe soon to be ball handling over either of these players. AD is both longer and more athletic than him and was a better player at the same age when that was literally all he had. He was just a skinny maybe skinnier as well. And before people say Giannis had to adjust to being in the America, AD had to adjust to being 6'10" for all of 3 years.

Yes. that's my only argument. But it's the only one I need.

Umm Wiggins can handle it like a guard, he just hasn't refined his ball handling to the point of being able to do it consistently or on the level of Durant or Giannis. But to a certain extent he is physically capable of playing like a guard off the dribble. Davis isn't, not on any level worth mentioning. I never once said that ballhandling/skillset had nothing to do with it, just that it's not the ONLY thing.

[Magic Giannison]

Giannis does not have a 44 inch vertical - this is very clear from both the eye test and also he measured a 12'2 max reach. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2471358-greek-freak-giannis-antetokounmpo-shows-off-122-max-vertical-reach

Based on his height and wingspan I'd estimate his standing reach to be in the range of 9'2-9'3 which would give him about a 35-36 inch vert. Vertical tests in a controlled environment are pretty useless anyway, it's more important how quickly you can get off the floor.

From a Bucks fan, KD has a clear edge in explosiveness - the guy is really an underrated athlete. Giannis dosent have close to his first step but in the open court they seem pretty close. Giannis has a better frame than KD does though and has been gaining strength every offseason. It's harder to compare Anthony Davis to these two since he plays a different role and dosent handle the ball as much.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337178

Not sure if it's true though

Thats Thanasis and the info comes from one of the worst trolls on the internet.

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't get the argument that ballhandling/skillset is the only reason Durant/Giannis can play like perimeter guys while Davis can't. It's not. They actually move like perimeter guys because they have greater hip flexibility, body control and agility. If Davis had the guard-like fluidity to handle the ball like a guard, he'd develop those skills. It's not like he's incapable of those skills or doesn't have the feel for it...this is a guy who played point guard growing up before he grew, he has the smarts and natural feel become a creator off the dribble just like Giannis or Durant...he can't do it because he simply can't move in a way that allows that skillset to flourish.

Most of Anthony's game is reliant on him using his face up ability to get to the rim. He's a far far better scorer than Giannis, and his bread and butter is perimeter creation. Guys are forced to guard him with big men and concede the drive, because if you put undersized guys on him, he's going to drain jumpers over their head. He's not as fancy with his moves, and he doesn't have the passing ability or pass first mentality to rack up assists, but this idea that he's like way behind in terms of driving to the basket is weird, considering that's how he makes his living on offense (and attacking the glass.) Giannis is a nice creator for his size, but he's not as good offensively as Davis is right now by any stretch of the imagination, even in a decidedly down year for Anthony. Teams haven't found a real good answer for stopping Davis from getting his points because he's so hard to contain from getting a drive when he faces up. Weird criticism. He doesn't create as a playmaker, but he definitely creates plenty of points from the perimeter. This would be like me claiming Anthony is a better athlete because Giannis hasn't been able to attack with the dribble drive and pull up jumper over virtually everybody like Davis has so far. Maybe Giannis hasn't developed as a shooter like Davis because he just doesn't have the coordination or athletic ability to create shots like that?

Side note: I'm a liar for saying KG spent his early years as mostly a small forward? Better check your history, lil pup

Anyway, the last thing I'll say is that I don't think anything I put up is definitive. The only reason I used steals, blocks, rebounds, dunks and things of that nature is that they are far more "controlled" in terms of being able to isolate how much of it relates to skill and to athleticism. The scouting community has always used blocks/steals/rebounds as numbers that show guys will be able to translate athleticism to the pro level. There are guys that can do these things based on things other than size/athleticism combo, but it's USUALLY a good indicator, especially when guys are of similar dimensions.

Personally, I don't think creating from the perimeter is as easy to draw conclusions about athleticism from, because so much of it has to do with your skill set. Steph Curry is a ridiculous creator almost purely because of his skill level. Someone like Dirk isn't close to as athletic as Giannis was, and was still far more deadly creating offense. Take it how you will, but the only guys who were able to produce some of those types of combination of blocks, steals, and rebounds on those amounts of possessions are some of the freakiest athletes ever, like Hakeem or David Robinson. On the other hand, we've seen less than stellar athletes become elite creators.

Agree to disagree.

[Whirrun]

For the Davis is faster crowd, Durant outpacing LeBron in transition while handling the ball:

Watch on YouTube

[Magic Giannison]

TIL that pulling up jumper are a part of athleticism, but doing full court in 2 dribbles and posterizing on a eurostep is not.

[NO-KG-AI]

TIL that pulling up jumper are a part of athleticism, but doing full court in 2 dribbles and posterizing on a eurostep is not.

Err. Don't twist my words. I'm saying it's not, the same way ballhandling isn't.

[Magic Giannison]

TIL that pulling up jumper are a part of athleticism, but doing full court in 2 dribbles and posterizing on a eurostep is not.

Err. Don't twist my words. I'm saying it's not, the same way ballhandling isn't.

The difference is that jumper and shooting in general is considered part of a technique and doesn't come remotely close to the physical attributes that are used to gauge athleticism.
Ballhandling and in general things that got to do with your body control are far far closer to the point, its the part of agility attribute of an athlete ( besides strength and stamina) .While ballhandling also involves technique as well the body type of an athlete is far more important factor in it compared to shooting.


Hence why you see everyone been able to shoot despite their bodies but you cannot see everyone ballhandling,jumping, stretching and have same control of their body.

[Whirrun]

TIL that pulling up jumper are a part of athleticism, but doing full court in 2 dribbles and posterizing on a eurostep is not.

Err. Don't twist my words. I'm saying it's not, the same way ballhandling isn't.

Lateral quickness, acceleration, balance, flexibility; hip, thigh, and core strength all play a role in handling the ball & slashing at an elite level. Crossovers, hesitations, step backs, in & outs, etc are all quick twitch moves. I'm unsure how anyone can deny this.