Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals

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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#61 » by Vee-Rex » Wed Mar 1, 2017 6:39 pm

Starboy wrote:
Vee-Rex wrote:
Starboy wrote:ITT: Cavs fans trying to make themselves feel better. :noway:


You claimed he was clearly hurt laterally. Do you have a counter argument to the OP's post? Because he clearly addressed that.


I have my eyes with which I watched Curry struggle to move in the entire series and limp on the way to the locker room.

whatever makes you feel better though. Like I said, doesn't matter to me. I root for the team and my team lost.


I watched the entire Portland series, the entire WCF, and the entire finals, as well as a TON of Steph in the regular season. My eyes showed me a guy that didn't struggle to move or look hurt at all.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#62 » by Lovethisgamegr » Wed Mar 1, 2017 6:39 pm

Starboy wrote:
Vee-Rex wrote:
Starboy wrote:ITT: Cavs fans trying to make themselves feel better. :noway:


You claimed he was clearly hurt laterally. Do you have a counter argument to the OP's post? Because he clearly addressed that.


I have my eyes with which I watched Curry struggle to move in the entire series and limp on the way to the locker room.


This is exactly what happens when they take off your leg and replace it with a robo-synthetic one.It explains perfectly why Curry still "doesn't look the same".It's because of that serious injury that no-one remembers happening that wasn't even treated with an offseason surgery.But who needs offseason surgeries when you have robo-legs.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#63 » by nickhx2 » Wed Mar 1, 2017 6:40 pm

this topic strikes me as someone still talking about their ex-girlfriend from high school 15 years later
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#64 » by Vee-Rex » Wed Mar 1, 2017 6:42 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Vee-Rex wrote:
Starboy wrote:ITT: Cavs fans trying to make themselves feel better. :noway:


You claimed he was clearly hurt laterally. Do you have a counter argument to the OP's post? Because he clearly addressed that.


Only Steph knows how he felt on each of those plays. Pain and ability to play through pain is not a "constant" and varies from player to player and moment to moment.

Long-term Cavaliers fans remember when Mark Price took an elbow from Rick Mahorn in the regular season. That was in February 1998. He missed just one game and had many big games after, but those of us who remember how well he was playing before that elbow will tell you he was never the same.

Ignoring injuries is just silly.

Kevin Love got smashed in the head in game 2 of the Finals and suffered a concussion. He'd even put up 17 & 7 in game 1, but the take-away from many people/pundits was that he's ineffective .vs. the Warriors - they don't even count him as an asset for the Cavs in the matchup.

Well ... let's just see?

I guess that's just too boring in In a world of 'hot takes'.


I was 10 years old during Mark Price's injury, so I don't remember that.

But Kevin Love has struggled vs. the Warriors prior to his head injury. Their small-ball lineup is a bad matchup for him. There's precedence to support that assertion.

Just as there's precedence to support that Stephen Curry was not injured, but simply tired and/or underperforming. His heightened/spectacular play in the WCF and semi-conference finals vs. Portland, as well as his underperformance in the 2015 finals are supportive of that.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#65 » by DonKnock » Wed Mar 1, 2017 6:53 pm

"I'm back" - Steph Curry
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#66 » by Onus » Wed Mar 1, 2017 7:18 pm

lorak wrote:
Spoiler:
Curry’s health in 2016 playoffs comes back regularly in our discussions and some people use it as explanation of his poor performance in the finals. I think it’s invalid and I will show why. To do so, I will cover 3 types of arguments: quotes, stats/performance on the court and visual analysis of his movement.

1. Quotes

First of all, during interview in September Steph said “I wasn't 100 percent, but who cares? I was playing”.

That’s often quoted as proof of him being injured/hurt/not 100%, but how much value something like that has? “ Not 100%” might refer to so many things, not necessary to the injury from Rockets series. I mean, who after 82 games season and 3 playoffs rounds is 100% in the NBA? That’s also one of the reasons why LeBron is so great, that after playing 5 straight finals he was still able to sustain great level in his 6th appearance in a row.

In preparation to this post I’ve gone through every ESPN’s game recap and Curry’s postgame interviews from G4 vs POR to G7 vs CLE and I noticed a pattern, that when he and Warriors played well, then no one talked about injury. But when struggles occurred “hurt excuse” popped out at once.

After G4 vs POR there was talk about him being rusty at the beginning, but as Thompson said "You knew he'd catch his rhythm eventually" and Curry in postgame interview said that breathing (so probably conditioning) was his biggest concern, not a word about knee.

During G1 vs OKC Aldridge reported that „His knee hasn't really gotten much better, on the other hand he said it hasn't gotten much worse. Basically, he said, we are past the point when pain can slow things down, but it's still there.” After the game Curry said, that he can manage just fine and it's about "pain tolerance going forward”. So looks like no mechanical issues, which would limit his movement.

After G2: "When I get open shots, obviously the confidence is there to knock them down. It's been like that since I've been back. My body's catching up, and I think I'm there."

After G4 Thunder taken 3-1 led and there was talk about Curry playing at 70%, but Kerr rebutted it:

Kerr dismissed a Yahoo! Sports report that quoted a non-Warriors source as saying Curry is playing at 70 percent. "Is that 'sources with knowledge of the team's thinking?' " Kerr asked Wednesday afternoon. "Nobody has said anything about Steph being 70 percent to me. Training staff, relatives, friends, sources with knowledge of the team's thinking -- nobody has told me he's 70 percent. Evidently they told the media but not me."

"I know he's not injured -- if he were injured, he would not be playing," Kerr said. "Is he bothered a little bit, perhaps by the layoff when he went three weeks without a game? He may not be quite where he needs to be, but it's not an injury, and that's the important thing."

(…)
"He's not injured," Kerr said. "He's coming back from the knee, but he's not injured. He just had a lousy night. It happens, even to the best players in the world.""


Curry himself also told reporters, that his knee is fine.

Then he played great in 3 elimination games in a row and no one talked about him being limited by injury. No such talk in first two games in the finals too. In G1 he had bad shooting night and in postgame reporter asked him if it was off night or Cavs defense - no word about injury. Similar story for the rest of the series, just a couple of times was asked about health and always answered "I'm fine", until G7 when he said:

"There isn't any surgery or anything in my future this summer. I need to get healthier, but there is no excuses for what happened on the floor," Curry said. "I was out there, ready to play. I had some good games, I had some bad games. And that's it. I'll come back stronger next season and be ready to go."


Overall through whole playoffs neither Curry nor Kerr suggested, that Steph was injured and Steve even gone as far as directly saying he wasn’t. Of course they might lied, because they didn’t want to us it as excuse, but he as well he might lied in September by saying he wasn’t 100%.

2. Performance on the court

If injury from series vs Rockets affected him in the finals, then the same should apply to WC playoffs, e.g. if player isn’t 100%, then he might have one game, when he is on fire, but not many of them and if this health issue was serious, then we should see it in his worse performance. But if he was playing bad just against one opponent and on better level vs 2 others, then more likely is that one team was simply better at defending him.

Let’s start from looking at pure box score production. Game score is poor metric to evaluate impact, but it describes box score quite well, so I will use it. “SD” means standard deviation and I included it to check if Curry’s performance was inconsistent, because if it was, then it indeed might suggest health issues - but also foul trouble or blowouts and that’s why there’s also GmSc per 36 minutes:

Code: Select all

SERIES   G   GmSc   SD   MPG   GmSc/36
13DEN   6   20,5   8,9   40,0   18,5
13SAS   6   14,1   8,4   42,8   11,9
14LAC   7   18,3   8,5   42,3   15,6
15NOP   4   24,0   7,8   39,8   21,7
15MEM   6   17,6   4,8   38,3   16,5
15HOU   5   24,7   7,2   36,8   24,2
15CLE   6   17,9   8,0   42,5   15,2
16HOU   2   10,5   10,5   19,5   19,4
16POR   2   26,2   1,8   37,0   25,5
16OKC   7   20,9   7,0   36,7   20,5
16CLE   7   13,1   8,2   35,1   13,4


So from boxscore perspective 2016 vs CLE was one of two worst series of his career, however raw GmSc is inflated by two ~30 pts blowouts (G2 +33 & 25 min; G3 -30 & 31 min) and in previous years he also didn’t play much in similar one sided games (14LAC G2 -40: &31 min, 15HOU G3 +35 & 35 min, 15OKC G2 +27 & 30 min; G3 -28 & 30 min), so it’s something normal for him, not caused by injury. He also had foul trouble in games 2 and 7, so if we want to adjust for these two factors, then looking at per 36 would be better and thus this series doesn’t seem that bad anymore, as 13SAS was slightly worse and several others not much better (14LAC, 15MEM, 15 CLE).

Second important thing to note here is that WCF vs OKC was one of his best series ever (and vs POR is the best!). Would he be able to play at so high level if he was injured? Keep also in mind that in 3 straight eliminations games he played at level not many players ever played in “win or go home” situation.

Anyway, from pure boxscore standpoint it looks like from G4 vs POR to G7 vs OKC he played the best playoff basketball of his life. That’s almost a month, so a lot of time to expose injury if there was any. But that didn’t happen and his performance decreased only then, when he faced Cavs, team against which he also struggled before. So what is more likely: that he was injured or that Cleveland (with LeBron in GOAT mode also on defensive end) defended him better than around average Thunder and Blazers defenses?

Other thing we can measure and which can show us if player was healthy or not is defense. Here’s one picture after WCF G5:

Image

If you are hurt, then you don't play so good defense vs so athletic freak like Westbrook. Also his BLK% and TRB% were career best in 2016 playoffs, so it suggests his athleticism was as good as ever. Or look at his side to side movement (a lot of gifs, so I’m hiding them in spoiler tag):


Image

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Irving made the shot in second play, but Stephen moved very well, doesn’t look like his knee was bothered by any issues and that stop in transition in first clip is something you can’t do with bad knee. Defense on Durant also shows good side to side movement.

Besides look at SportVU data:

Code: Select all

YEAR   DFGA   DFG%   DIFF
17RS   9,2   43,1   -1,4
16PO   9,8   42,4   -3,4
16RS   10,8   40,1   -3,2
15PO   9,2   38,3   -4,5
15RS   9,8   40,5   -2,8
14PO   11,6   44,4   -2,0
14RS   9,8   42,9   -1,4


Yes, his DFG% is worse than in RS or in 2015, but it not necessary means he was injured, because it might be caused by defending better shooters. What matters is DIFF and Curry looks very good here, what is also consistent with his defense on Westbrook. High volume of DFGA (with quite low MPG) is very telling too, because if he would be hurt, then we would expect Kerr to hide him on defense as much as possible – but that didn’t happen and his defensive volume was as high as usually with similar effectiveness (DIFF).

SportVU also provides speed and distance data:

Code: Select all

YEAR   DIST. MILES   AVG SPEED
17RS   2,48   4,43
16PO   2,45   4,30
16RS   2,44   4,26
15PO   2,85   4,34
15RS   2,38   4,37
14PO   2,93   4,14
14RS   2,56   4,22


So 16PO looks slightly better than 16RS and if he was playing with injury/not being 100%, then opposite should happen.

And one more stats based thing. Curry struggled in the finals not because he was injured, but because Cavs defended him so well and in a way we could see it, when we check how he performed vs different Cleveland's defenders (data from 6 games, don't have numbers from G7): vs Irving he had 66% eFG (with 28 FGA) and 49% vs everyone else. So against Kyrie he wasn't hurt and was when LeBron or Shump were defending him...? ;)

3. Visual impressions

I have seen arguments, that Curry’s side to side movement was limited because of that knee injury and that’s why he performed worse vs Cle and for example didn’t drive by Lowe in G7.

So first of all it’s not like he wasn’t ever stopped by big man:


But what’s more important Curry choosing to shot pull up three/long 2 over big instead of driving in the paint is his typical play. He did it hundreds of times in his career and also quite often after coming back from that injury, so in no way it’s a sign, that he wasn’t 100%):

Image

Image

Image

Image

Those plays show, that his side to side movement was as good as ever, that he haven’t had problems to get separation and good (by his standards ;)) looks vs every starting big he faced in last two playoffs series. And when he wanted to he attacked the rim too:

Image

Image

Image


Last set of gifs to better show how good was his side to side movement:

Image

Image

Image

Image

I really could post more of such gifs, but this post is already too big, so I hope it’s enough to show the point. Well, maybe one more - look at his dunk made before finals G7:

Image

Player with bad knee doesn’t do such things.

Finally, no injury caused him to make biggest basketball mistake of his life:

Image

As some of you know I think Curry's '16 regular season was arguably the best RS ever, so it's not like I hate him. But at the same time I can't agree with assumption, that injury was the reason why he played so bad in the finals. I showed above why I think he was ok physically and my explanation of his performance is, that Cavs defense simply was good at defending him and because of that they messed with his head too (for example foul trouble or trash talking with LJ is sign of that). That's why he played worse and made such nonchalant plays as this behind the back pass.

This is a great opening post.

Here's a rebuttal that you some how missed through all your research.

https://player.fm/series/truehoop/can-the-cavs-keep-it-up-and-steph-and-love-issues-6916-CEH26K7zKmGNNwH1
Listen to this podcast starting at the 17:55 mark.

It's a bunch of reporters talking about Steph at practice. People who were around Steph every day of the regular season say that Steph isn't moving the way he normally does.

But the reality of the situation is that he played, they lost. Congratulations Cavs!
Most 4th Quarter Points in Final since 1991
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
1998 Michael Jordan 10.6 (50.6% TS)
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3 (68.0% TS)
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#67 » by Vee-Rex » Wed Mar 1, 2017 7:20 pm

Onus wrote:
lorak wrote:

This is a great opening post.

Here's a rebuttal that you some how missed through all your research.

https://player.fm/series/truehoop/can-the-cavs-keep-it-up-and-steph-and-love-issues-6916-CEH26K7zKmGNNwH1
Listen to this podcast starting at the 17:55 mark.

It's a bunch of reporters talking about Steph at practice. People who were around Steph every day of the regular season say that Steph isn't moving the way he normally does.

But the reality of the situation is that he played, they lost. Congratulations Cavs!


And-1, great rebuttal man. I'll listen to that when I get some time.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#68 » by Starboy » Wed Mar 1, 2017 11:09 pm

I'm not sure how many times people will keep posting quotes from Steph and Kerr from before Game 7 as proof of him being healthy...Why would you give away information that your best player is injured in the middle of the series?

and no athlete wants to make excuses after the Finals...


look at it with your own eyes, see what journalists are saying and make up your mind.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#69 » by bargnanimvp » Wed Mar 1, 2017 11:18 pm

every player is banged up by that point in the season
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#70 » by sfhand » Wed Mar 1, 2017 11:27 pm

The dude, with a history of playing for USA basketball, turned down an opportunity for a sure fire Olympic Gold medal so he could get his body right. Anyone who says he was not hurt is 100% delusional.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#71 » by spacemonkey » Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:15 am

I like this OP with images, videos, and stats backing up a claim. It was a good read.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#72 » by NyKnicks1714 » Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:19 am

2016: "Cleveland won because Curry wasn't at his best, physically"

2015: "Irving and Love wouldn't have made a difference"
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#73 » by michaelm » Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:33 am

NyKnicks1714 wrote:2016: "Cleveland won because Curry wasn't at his best, physically"

2015: "Irving and Love wouldn't have made a difference"


More like, often by the same poster in the same post as this thread once again illustrates,

2015: The Cavs would certainly have won without the injuries (every day of last season usually by multiple posters on here).
2016: Curry can't possibly have been injured (even though everyone saw him slip on a wet court at Houston and he missed 2 weeks of the play-offs) and bitter GSW fans are just trying to detract from the Cavs title.

It is hard for me to choose which of the 4 statements is more ridiculous. The bottom line is the only fair thing to do is to give full credit to both teams for their titles since both beat everyone who turned up to play them, and the only fair assumption is that both teams would have won regardless.

My objection is to claims that Curry wasn't as good as in the regular season because he "choked". Sure he can and did play better with whatever degree of health he did have (perhaps 80% imo, but no worse than that) prior to LeBron and Irving lifting for the last 3 games and the Cavs adopting better tactics for those games.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#74 » by JonFromVA » Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:38 am

Vee-Rex wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Vee-Rex wrote:
You claimed he was clearly hurt laterally. Do you have a counter argument to the OP's post? Because he clearly addressed that.


Only Steph knows how he felt on each of those plays. Pain and ability to play through pain is not a "constant" and varies from player to player and moment to moment.

Long-term Cavaliers fans remember when Mark Price took an elbow from Rick Mahorn in the regular season. That was in February 1998. He missed just one game and had many big games after, but those of us who remember how well he was playing before that elbow will tell you he was never the same.

Ignoring injuries is just silly.

Kevin Love got smashed in the head in game 2 of the Finals and suffered a concussion. He'd even put up 17 & 7 in game 1, but the take-away from many people/pundits was that he's ineffective .vs. the Warriors - they don't even count him as an asset for the Cavs in the matchup.

Well ... let's just see?

I guess that's just too boring in In a world of 'hot takes'.


I was 10 years old during Mark Price's injury, so I don't remember that.

But Kevin Love has struggled vs. the Warriors prior to his head injury. Their small-ball lineup is a bad matchup for him. There's precedence to support that assertion.

Just as there's precedence to support that Stephen Curry was not injured, but simply tired and/or underperforming. His heightened/spectacular play in the WCF and semi-conference finals vs. Portland, as well as his underperformance in the 2015 finals are supportive of that.


Yet, even a preponderance of evidence is not enough to be positive whether something is true (Steph not being hurt); let alone whether it will stay true as conditions shift (Love being ineffectual .vs. the W's).

Unlike the op, you worded your reply carefully, and I take no issue with anything you've said. :)
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#75 » by JonFromVA » Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:50 am

bargnanimvp wrote:every player is banged up by that point in the season


Absolutely, but some more so than others. Steph plays on the edge of the impossible sometimes; but nudge his mechanics off just a bit and his shot isn't going to go down, his layups may even miss.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#76 » by Lovethisgamegr » Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:54 am

michaelm wrote:2016: Curry can't possibly have been injured (even though everyone saw him slip on a wet court at Houston and he missed 2 weeks of the play-offs) and bitter GSW fans are just trying to detract from the Cavs title.

It is hard for me to choose which of the 4 statements is more ridiculous. The bottom line is the only fair thing to do is to give full credit to both teams for their titles since both beat everyone who turned up to play them, and the only fair assumption is that both teams would have won regardless.


So actually you are saying that missing the series(Irving,Love) due to an injury is exactly the same with being healed,being on the court playing 35+ minutes and scoring 20+ from game to game.Looks like we found which statement is more ridiculous.

He was injured he lost 2 weeks, then he wasn't injured he had great games against OKC and CAVS and the he underperformed in the last games and he made some bad choices -that had nothing to do with any injury- in Game 7
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#77 » by LouisLitt » Thu Mar 2, 2017 1:14 am

He wasn't injured, he got punked by Lebron.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#78 » by inquisitive » Thu Mar 2, 2017 1:32 am

all i can say is that no other nba forum has more dedicated members like RealGM in trying to get their point across.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#79 » by michaelm » Thu Mar 2, 2017 1:33 am

Lovethisgamegr wrote:
michaelm wrote:2016: Curry can't possibly have been injured (even though everyone saw him slip on a wet court at Houston and he missed 2 weeks of the play-offs) and bitter GSW fans are just trying to detract from the Cavs title.

It is hard for me to choose which of the 4 statements is more ridiculous. The bottom line is the only fair thing to do is to give full credit to both teams for their titles since both beat everyone who turned up to play them, and the only fair assumption is that both teams would have won regardless.


So actually you are saying that missing the series(Irving,Love) due to an injury is exactly the same with being healed,being on the court playing 35+ minutes and scoring 20+ from game to game.Looks like we found which statement is more ridiculous.

He was injured he lost 2 weeks, then he wasn't injured he had great games against OKC and CAVS and the he underperformed in the last games and he made some bad choices -that had nothing to do with any injury- in Game 7

No, I am saying injuries are not in the control of the opposing team and any title winning team should be given full credit for beating whoever turns up to play them.
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Re: Stephen Curry wasn't injured/hurt/70% in 2016 Finals 

Post#80 » by DubsPhilosophy » Thu Mar 2, 2017 2:34 am

Of course Curry was still hurt but that wasn't the biggest part of why he was unable to rise to the occasion in the final 4 minutes of game 7. Clearly his injured knee was compromising his ability to get open like he's used to but it was still almost good enough to beat the Cavs. In those final 4 minutes, the quest for 73, the hurt knee and the hellacious 7-game series against OKC all combined and degraded his abilities just enough to make him unable to hit the shots to win the game. It's not one thing, it never is, it's injury and fatigue making it so that the Cavs defense was able to contain him.

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