RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#14 2019-20

[Colbinii]

Look at these Doncic fanboys voting for him. Great rookie, nowhere near 15 best players in the world right now. This is a popularity contest.

If he makes a leap like other alltime greats in year 2 he will have a strong argument for top 15.

LeBron was top 10 in his 2nd season
Dwyane Wade was top 15 in his 2nd season
Anthony Davis was close to top 15 (Doncic better as a rookie)
Durant was close to top 15 his 2nd season (Doncic better as a rookie)
Chris Paul was close to top 15 his 2nd season

[Gooner]

Look at these Doncic fanboys voting for him. Great rookie, nowhere near 15 best players in the world right now. This is a popularity contest.

If he makes a leap like other alltime greats in year 2 he will have a strong argument for top 15.

LeBron was top 10 in his 2nd season
Dwyane Wade was top 15 in his 2nd season
Anthony Davis was close to top 15 (Doncic better as a rookie)
Durant was close to top 15 his 2nd season (Doncic better as a rookie)
Chris Paul was close to top 15 his 2nd season

Is this a projection or a list based on the level of play and the accomplishments we have seen so far? That's your expectations for him, mine is different, but a the end of the day, he has to do much more before I put him in top 15.

[Colbinii]

Look at these Doncic fanboys voting for him. Great rookie, nowhere near 15 best players in the world right now. This is a popularity contest.

If he makes a leap like other alltime greats in year 2 he will have a strong argument for top 15.

LeBron was top 10 in his 2nd season
Dwyane Wade was top 15 in his 2nd season
Anthony Davis was close to top 15 (Doncic better as a rookie)
Durant was close to top 15 his 2nd season (Doncic better as a rookie)
Chris Paul was close to top 15 his 2nd season

Is this a projection or a list based on the level of play and the accomplishments we have seen so far? That's your expectations for him, mine is different, but a the end of the day, he has to do much more before I put him in top 15.

That isnt my expectation of him, that is other people's expectations of him.

He had one of the best rookie seasons in recent memory and has a skillset built perfectly to accel in the NBA.

Read the thread, it is projecting for next season.

[Pelly24]

Irving.

Irving getting disrespected a bit too much due to a year of terrible chemistry in Boston.

He has never been a top 15 player in his career.

He's been a clearcut top 15 the last two years, and this year I'd argue even top 12 was a good argument. 2016-2017 he was probably just as good but playing in a bad system for his strengths

[Pelly24]

Really excited to see what Doncic does this year.

I'm predicting 24/6/7 on 58 TS%

[Colbinii]

Irving.

Irving getting disrespected a bit too much due to a year of terrible chemistry in Boston.

He has never been a top 15 player in his career.

He's been a clearcut top 15 the last two years, and this year I'd argue even top 12 was a good argument. 2016-2017 he was probably just as good but playing in a bad system for his strengths

Nothing about it is clear.

Was he clearly better than LeBron, George, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Jokic, Embiid, Harden, Vucevic, Lillard, Towns, Giannis, Butler, Gobert and Horford?

[Gooner]

He has never been a top 15 player in his career.

He's been a clearcut top 15 the last two years, and this year I'd argue even top 12 was a good argument. 2016-2017 he was probably just as good but playing in a bad system for his strengths

Nothing about it is clear.

Was he clearly better than LeBron, George, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Jokic, Embiid, Harden, Vucevic, Lillard, Towns, Giannis, Butler, Gobert and Horford?

Vucevic, Towns, Horford... You are on fire today.

[Colbinii]

He's been a clearcut top 15 the last two years, and this year I'd argue even top 12 was a good argument. 2016-2017 he was probably just as good but playing in a bad system for his strengths

Nothing about it is clear.

Was he clearly better than LeBron, George, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Jokic, Embiid, Harden, Vucevic, Lillard, Towns, Giannis, Butler, Gobert and Horford?

Vucevic, Towns, Horford... You are on fire today.

What makes Kyrie clearly better?

It looks like 50% of RealGM think Towns is better.

[Gooner]

Nothing about it is clear.

Was he clearly better than LeBron, George, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Jokic, Embiid, Harden, Vucevic, Lillard, Towns, Giannis, Butler, Gobert and Horford?

Vucevic, Towns, Horford... You are on fire today.

What makes Kyrie clearly better?

It looks like 50% of RealGM think Towns is better.

Wtf has Vucevic done? Kyrie is a champion, even if you wanna discredit it by saying he played with LeBron. Towns has a lot to prove too when it comes to winning. I'm not surprised by RealGM poll results, that's a popularity contest like I've stated before.

[Alatan]

Vucevic, Towns, Horford... You are on fire today.

What makes Kyrie clearly better?

It looks like 50% of RealGM think Towns is better.

Wtf has Vucevic done? Kyrie is a champion, even if you wanna discredit it by saying he played with LeBron. Towns has a lot to prove too when it comes to winning. I'm not surprised by RealGM poll results, that's a popularity contest like I've stated before.

Not that i think that Vucevic is better than Kyrie but J.R. Smith is a champion too. Not much of an argument to be honest.

[Pelly24]

He has never been a top 15 player in his career.

He's been a clearcut top 15 the last two years, and this year I'd argue even top 12 was a good argument. 2016-2017 he was probably just as good but playing in a bad system for his strengths

Nothing about it is clear.

Was he clearly better than LeBron, George, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Jokic, Embiid, Harden, Vucevic, Lillard, Towns, Giannis, Butler, Gobert and Horford?

He's clearly better than Horford, Towns and Vuc. Replace one of those with Blake Griffin.


Horford: Beat out Horford in almost all advanced stats in 2019, was generally acknowledged as the best player the year before when he put up 24 61 TS%.

Towns: Is even worse on defense than Kyrie and kyrie scored as much on at least as good of efficiency.

Vucevic: Kyrie scored more points on better efficiency. 2019 was the first year it was a conversation, give me the history of success over the one year.

Gobert: I can definitely accept this.

Jimmy Butler: Was not a top 15 player last year, but give him the benefit of the doubt, and it's definitely *not clear* Kyrie is better.


I have him in my top 12-13.

[Tiny ball]

You would think Fredderick Edmund VanVleet Sr. Would be in the top ten players as he just won the Toronto Raptors the NBA championship? I didn't even see the player that stepped up his game the most even on the list?

[Tim Kempton]

I think that if he and Wiggins took their jobs more seriously, they wouldn't have driven Butler away. Considering they went 47-35 the previous season and made the playoffs, I think that he was a huge reason for their 11 win drop-off.

Without Butler, he's a career loser. With Butler, he makes the playoffs. The next season, he helps drive him out. I'm not even a fan of Butler, but it doesn't take a psychiatrist (or psychologist) to see that KAT isn't motivated to win. If he is motivated to win, then it's nothing more than a secondary or tertiary concern.

Grouping Towns and Wiggins together is like saying that if Draymond and Quinn Cook would have played better last season maybe the Warriors would have beat the Raptors.

Yep. I've railed on it before.

It's basically a flashing neon light that calls attention to "This poster does not know much about the Timberwolves" at this point.




[Note: So we're putting more weight into one manufactured PR blitz of a practice than 300+ games. Cool. As for the Wolves 11-game drop being blamed on KAT and the rest of the Wolves... how much does Butler get blamed? Remember the team was 4 - 9 when they traded him after his faux tirade. They didn't even know if he was going to suit up some of those nights. With a healthy team... the Wolves were above .500 from that point... and then Covington was injured and missed 40+ games. Teague missed about 40 games. And at one point the Wolves were without its top FOUR point guards.]

Irony abounds. Earlier, you accused me of being upset that someone voted against a player that I like, yet you are a vehement T-Wolves devotee.

For a second time (reading comprehension is critical here), KAT and Wiggins were pinpointed as the main reasons for Butler wanting to leave. I even cited one of many articles where this was mentioned. I wasn't grouping them together in terms of their talent levels. We all know Wiggins is by far one of the worst contracts in the league.

None of my responses have disregarded KAT's 300+ games. In fact, they have all pointed to the fact that he is a career loser, except when Butler was around. This is likely due to the fact that Butler actually has a voice and is passionate about winning. Towns' 'aw shucks' attitude is troubling, especially since he should be the leader of the team at this point. Statistics aren't the only thing that counts when ranking players. This isn't fantasy basketball.

You bring up all of the injuries the Wolves had last season, but you never account for the fact that without Butler, Towns is a loser. During the '17-'18 season when the Wolves went 47-35, Butler missed 23 games. The Wolves record during that stretch? 10-13 (on pace for a 35-47 record... shocker!). With Butler, they went 37-22 (on pace for 51-52 wins).

Again, Towns may put up impressive statistics, but his play does not result in winning basketball. Towns' teams are 106-163 with him at the helm. That's a 39% winning percentage. I value good players that help their teams win over stat guys who lead their teams to continuous 30-35 win seasons.

[Colbinii]

He's been a clearcut top 15 the last two years, and this year I'd argue even top 12 was a good argument. 2016-2017 he was probably just as good but playing in a bad system for his strengths

Nothing about it is clear.

Was he clearly better than LeBron, George, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Jokic, Embiid, Harden, Vucevic, Lillard, Towns, Giannis, Butler, Gobert and Horford?

He's clearly better than Horford, Towns and Vuc. Replace one of those with Blake Griffin.


Horford: Beat out Horford in almost all advanced stats in 2019, was generally acknowledged as the best player the year before when he put up 24 61 TS%.

Towns: Is even worse on defense than Kyrie and kyrie scored as much on at least as good of efficiency.

Vucevic: Kyrie scored more points on better efficiency. 2019 was the first year it was a conversation, give me the history of success over the one year.

Gobert: I can definitely accept this.

Jimmy Butler: Was not a top 15 player last year, but give him the benefit of the doubt, and it's definitely *not clear* Kyrie is better.


I have him in my top 12-13.

All fair points. I have him somewhere from 15-20 but its splitting hairs at this point.

I think I may be too low on Kyrie from 18 and 19 campaigns.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Grouping Towns and Wiggins together is like saying that if Draymond and Quinn Cook would have played better last season maybe the Warriors would have beat the Raptors.

Yep. I've railed on it before.

It's basically a flashing neon light that calls attention to "This poster does not know much about the Timberwolves" at this point.




[Note: So we're putting more weight into one manufactured PR blitz of a practice than 300+ games. Cool. As for the Wolves 11-game drop being blamed on KAT and the rest of the Wolves... how much does Butler get blamed? Remember the team was 4 - 9 when they traded him after his faux tirade. They didn't even know if he was going to suit up some of those nights. With a healthy team... the Wolves were above .500 from that point... and then Covington was injured and missed 40+ games. Teague missed about 40 games. And at one point the Wolves were without its top FOUR point guards.]

Irony abounds. Earlier, you accused me of being upset that someone voted against a player that I like, yet you are a vehement T-Wolves devotee.

For a second time (reading comprehension is critical here), KAT and Wiggins were pinpointed as the main reasons for Butler wanting to leave. I even cited one of many articles where this was mentioned. I wasn't grouping them together in terms of their talent levels. We all know Wiggins is by far one of the worst contracts in the league.

None of my responses have disregarded KAT's 300+ games. In fact, they have all pointed to the fact that he is a career loser, except when Butler was around. This is likely due to the fact that Butler actually has a voice and is passionate about winning. Towns' 'aw shucks' attitude is troubling, especially since he should be the leader of the team at this point. Statistics aren't the only thing that counts when ranking players. This isn't fantasy basketball.

You bring up all of the injuries the Wolves had last season, but you never account for the fact that without Butler, Towns is a loser. During the '17-'18 season when the Wolves went 47-35, Butler missed 23 games. The Wolves record during that stretch? 10-13 (on pace for a 35-47 record... shocker!). With Butler, they went 37-22 (on pace for 51-52 wins).

Again, Towns may put up impressive statistics, but his play does not result in winning basketball. Towns' teams are 106-163 with him at the helm. That's a 39% winning percentage. I value good players that help their teams win over stat guys who lead their teams to continuous 30-35 win seasons.

I didn't accuse you of anything. Reread. 3x if you must. I simply offered it as a possible explanation among many... to a question I asked. I knew nothing about you up to that point... Yikes!

I'm fairly new to posting regularly here... but rest assured, there's nothing rube-like in my Timberwolves fandom. For example, I clearly acknowledge that it's now the worst franchise in modern NBA history (surpassing the Clippers). I think Glen Taylor is one of the worst owners in today's NBA. I rip Wiggins. And I will rip every single player and the team when they suck balls, including Towns. I simply do it with stats and actual evidence instead of pretending to know what's in a guy's head. If it seems like I'm defending a guy like Towns... it's because I'm calling out flimsy takes and wildly inaccurate assumptions or inaccuracies or pure conjecture.


[Note: Wait. You mean to tell me that the Wolves were worse in 2018 without its best player and highest usage player (Butler) than when he was replaced by Nemanja Bjelcia playing out of position at the 3? No way! Get out of here with that nonsense. That's crazy talk.]

[Pelly24]

Nothing about it is clear.

Was he clearly better than LeBron, George, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Jokic, Embiid, Harden, Vucevic, Lillard, Towns, Giannis, Butler, Gobert and Horford?

He's clearly better than Horford, Towns and Vuc. Replace one of those with Blake Griffin.


Horford: Beat out Horford in almost all advanced stats in 2019, was generally acknowledged as the best player the year before when he put up 24 61 TS%.

Towns: Is even worse on defense than Kyrie and kyrie scored as much on at least as good of efficiency.

Vucevic: Kyrie scored more points on better efficiency. 2019 was the first year it was a conversation, give me the history of success over the one year.

Gobert: I can definitely accept this.

Jimmy Butler: Was not a top 15 player last year, but give him the benefit of the doubt, and it's definitely *not clear* Kyrie is better.


I have him in my top 12-13.

All fair points. I have him somewhere from 15-20 but its splitting hairs at this point.

I think I may be too low on Kyrie from 18 and 19 campaigns.

Yeah that's the thing with these rankings, and some of it is situational. I think if it weren't situational, the guys in that top 13-20 range would be undeniable top 10 guys. For Kyrie it's some questions about taking another leap to the 27/7/5 range on the same efficiency and maintaining decent defense. That's pretty much Where Dame has been, so that's why he's in my top 10.

For KAT its about his defense and frankly getting a better record and making real progress with the team. For horford its about his ability to score more when needed/and aging. Jimmy's really a top 10ish guy, but has to re-prove it. I'd have him at No. 11

With Gobert hes fair right at 12-15, it's just he isn't a great offensive player so thats why he's in that tier.

For me it's really:

Bench
Rotation player
Starter
Very Good Starter/Fringe All-Star
All Star
All-NBA
MVP candidate
GOAT Level

[Tim Kempton]

Yep. I've railed on it before.

It's basically a flashing neon light that calls attention to "This poster does not know much about the Timberwolves" at this point.




[Note: So we're putting more weight into one manufactured PR blitz of a practice than 300+ games. Cool. As for the Wolves 11-game drop being blamed on KAT and the rest of the Wolves... how much does Butler get blamed? Remember the team was 4 - 9 when they traded him after his faux tirade. They didn't even know if he was going to suit up some of those nights. With a healthy team... the Wolves were above .500 from that point... and then Covington was injured and missed 40+ games. Teague missed about 40 games. And at one point the Wolves were without its top FOUR point guards.]

Irony abounds. Earlier, you accused me of being upset that someone voted against a player that I like, yet you are a vehement T-Wolves devotee.

For a second time (reading comprehension is critical here), KAT and Wiggins were pinpointed as the main reasons for Butler wanting to leave. I even cited one of many articles where this was mentioned. I wasn't grouping them together in terms of their talent levels. We all know Wiggins is by far one of the worst contracts in the league.

None of my responses have disregarded KAT's 300+ games. In fact, they have all pointed to the fact that he is a career loser, except when Butler was around. This is likely due to the fact that Butler actually has a voice and is passionate about winning. Towns' 'aw shucks' attitude is troubling, especially since he should be the leader of the team at this point. Statistics aren't the only thing that counts when ranking players. This isn't fantasy basketball.

You bring up all of the injuries the Wolves had last season, but you never account for the fact that without Butler, Towns is a loser. During the '17-'18 season when the Wolves went 47-35, Butler missed 23 games. The Wolves record during that stretch? 10-13 (on pace for a 35-47 record... shocker!). With Butler, they went 37-22 (on pace for 51-52 wins).

Again, Towns may put up impressive statistics, but his play does not result in winning basketball. Towns' teams are 106-163 with him at the helm. That's a 39% winning percentage. I value good players that help their teams win over stat guys who lead their teams to continuous 30-35 win seasons.

I didn't accuse you of anything. Reread. 3x if you must. I simply offered it as a possible explanation among many... to a question I asked. I knew nothing about you up to that point... Yikes!

I'm fairly new to posting regularly here... but rest assured, there's nothing rube-like in my Timberwolves fandom. For example, I clearly acknowledge that it's now the worst franchise in modern NBA history (surpassing the Clippers). I think Glen Taylor is one of the worst owners in today's NBA. I rip Wiggins. And I will rip every single player and the team when they suck balls, including Towns. I simply do it with stats and actual evidence instead of pretending to know what's in a guy's head. If it seems like I'm defending a guy like Towns... it's because I'm calling out flimsy takes and wildly inaccurate assumptions or inaccuracies or pure conjecture.


[Note: Wait. You mean to tell me that the Wolves were worse in 2018 without its best player and highest usage player (Butler) than when he was replaced by Nemanja Bjelcia playing out of position at the 3? No way! Get out of here with that nonsense. That's crazy talk.]

Picking and choosing which arguments to refute doesn't look good. You like to say that you use "stats and actual evidence instead of pretending to know what's in a guy's head," yet I have given evidence that Towns' lack of desire and motivation to win have been issues in the past. What stats have you provided? Where is your evidence? My evidence is clear. Towns is a career loser with impressive stats. If you value fantasy basketball over the actual thing, Towns is definitely your man here. I'll take proven winners over voiceless layabouts who put in little-to-no effort on the defensive end.

Your argument is weak because in the end there is no statistic you can provide that can justify the fact that Towns is a loser. Until he proves otherwise (assuming he ever does), that is where he stands. He is an amalgamation of Derrick Coleman, Antonio McDyess, and DeMarcus Cousins, except he has practically no playoff experience and no passion.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Irony abounds. Earlier, you accused me of being upset that someone voted against a player that I like, yet you are a vehement T-Wolves devotee.

For a second time (reading comprehension is critical here), KAT and Wiggins were pinpointed as the main reasons for Butler wanting to leave. I even cited one of many articles where this was mentioned. I wasn't grouping them together in terms of their talent levels. We all know Wiggins is by far one of the worst contracts in the league.

None of my responses have disregarded KAT's 300+ games. In fact, they have all pointed to the fact that he is a career loser, except when Butler was around. This is likely due to the fact that Butler actually has a voice and is passionate about winning. Towns' 'aw shucks' attitude is troubling, especially since he should be the leader of the team at this point. Statistics aren't the only thing that counts when ranking players. This isn't fantasy basketball.

You bring up all of the injuries the Wolves had last season, but you never account for the fact that without Butler, Towns is a loser. During the '17-'18 season when the Wolves went 47-35, Butler missed 23 games. The Wolves record during that stretch? 10-13 (on pace for a 35-47 record... shocker!). With Butler, they went 37-22 (on pace for 51-52 wins).

Again, Towns may put up impressive statistics, but his play does not result in winning basketball. Towns' teams are 106-163 with him at the helm. That's a 39% winning percentage. I value good players that help their teams win over stat guys who lead their teams to continuous 30-35 win seasons.

I didn't accuse you of anything. Reread. 3x if you must. I simply offered it as a possible explanation among many... to a question I asked. I knew nothing about you up to that point... Yikes!

I'm fairly new to posting regularly here... but rest assured, there's nothing rube-like in my Timberwolves fandom. For example, I clearly acknowledge that it's now the worst franchise in modern NBA history (surpassing the Clippers). I think Glen Taylor is one of the worst owners in today's NBA. I rip Wiggins. And I will rip every single player and the team when they suck balls, including Towns. I simply do it with stats and actual evidence instead of pretending to know what's in a guy's head. If it seems like I'm defending a guy like Towns... it's because I'm calling out flimsy takes and wildly inaccurate assumptions or inaccuracies or pure conjecture.


[Note: Wait. You mean to tell me that the Wolves were worse in 2018 without its best player and highest usage player (Butler) than when he was replaced by Nemanja Bjelcia playing out of position at the 3? No way! Get out of here with that nonsense. That's crazy talk.]

Picking and choosing which arguments to refute doesn't look good. You like to say that you use "stats and actual evidence instead of pretending to know what's in a guy's head," yet I have given evidence that Towns' lack of desire and motivation to win have been issues in the past. What stats have you provided? Where is your evidence? My evidence is clear. Towns is a career loser with impressive stats. If you value fantasy basketball over the actual thing, Towns is definitely your man here. I'll take proven winners over voiceless layabouts who put in little-to-no effort on the defensive end.

Your argument is weak because in the end there is no statistic you can provide that can justify the fact that Towns is a loser. Until he proves otherwise (assuming he ever does), that is where he stands. He is an amalgamation of Derrick Coleman, Antonio McDyess, and DeMarcus Cousins, except he has no playoff experience and no passion.

Ha. Way to completely ignore/deflect from realizing you misread my first post in this thread. It's actually pretty similar to how you've consistently ignored direct questions repeatedly. Obvious trolling is obvious... or disingenuous posting is disingenuous.

But let's summarize for fun...

- Butler's PR tirade = evidence/proof that Towns is lazy or soft or overrated or doesn't care about winning or a career loser or something.

Cool. Enjoy your day.

[Tim Kempton]

Ha. Way to completely ignore/deflect from realizing you misread my first post in this thread. It's actually pretty similar to how you've consistently ignored direct questions repeatedly. Obvious trolling is obvious... or disingenuous posting is disingenuous.

But let's summarize for fun...

- Butler's PR tirade = evidence/proof that Towns is lazy or soft or overrated or doesn't care about winning or a career loser or something.

Cool. Enjoy your day.

The real summary...

Towns being a career loser started well before Butler's tenure with the Wolves began, continued during Butler's injury in '17-'18 (Wolves' 10-13 record with Butler injured), and continued after Butler left.

Butler's "PR tirade" is not the only evidence of Towns being lazy or soft. Anyone that has watched him on defense since he's been in the league has seen him repeatedly take plays off on the defensive end. You STILL haven't given any sort of explanation regarding his mediocre/lazy defense. Also, according to the Yahoo article about the practice session, "Towns then gathered the players in a huddle and gave a message centered on everyone keeping their emotions in check, league sources said. According to some of the players, the message felt empty." Once again, the picture of an uncaring, voiceless player is evident. It's almost as if a theme is emerging. Another article about Towns' lack of leadership...

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/karl-anthony-towns-timberwolves-leader-quote-jimmy-butler/

When the Wolves inevitably finish 35-47 and miss the playoffs for the 4th time in Towns' five seasons, at least you'll have his 23 and 12 stat line to cling to at night.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Ha. Way to completely ignore/deflect from realizing you misread my first post in this thread. It's actually pretty similar to how you've consistently ignored direct questions repeatedly. Obvious trolling is obvious... or disingenuous posting is disingenuous.

But let's summarize for fun...

- Butler's PR tirade = evidence/proof that Towns is lazy or soft or overrated or doesn't care about winning or a career loser or something.

Cool. Enjoy your day.

The real summary...

Towns being a career loser started well before Butler's tenure with the Wolves began, continued during Butler's injury in '17-'18 (Wolves' 10-13 record with Butler injured), and continued after Butler left.

Butler's "PR tirade" is not the only evidence of Towns being lazy or soft. Anyone that has watched him on defense since he's been in the league has seen him repeatedly take plays off on the defensive end. You STILL haven't given any sort of explanation regarding his mediocre/lazy defense. Also, according to the Yahoo article about the practice session, "Towns then gathered the players in a huddle and gave a message centered on everyone keeping their emotions in check, league sources said. According to some of the players, the message felt empty." Once again, the picture of an uncaring, voiceless player is evident. It's almost as if a theme is emerging. Another article about Towns' lack of leadership...

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/karl-anthony-towns-timberwolves-leader-quote-jimmy-butler/

When the Wolves inevitably finish 35-47 and miss the playoffs for the 4th time in Towns' five seasons, at least you'll have his 23 and 12 stat line to cling to at night.

Ha. Joke is on you.

I don't think the Wolves make it to 35 wins this season.

Oh. Wait...