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Stratmaster wrote:

mtron32 wrote:

MGB8 wrote:The problem with the OP is that when Lavine makes a shot, he still labels it a bad possession.

But even if not ideal, the result is about as good as you can expect - 2 points.

Meanwhile, when Lauri misses a shot, he generally counts it as a good possession - but the results say otherwise.

A (subjectively bad decision leading to 2 points is still 2 points - and a win. A (subjectively) good decision leading to zero points (and often the other team running the other way on the long rebound) is still a loss.

The OP's tracking is just a reflection of a pre-conceived conclusion - a biased post which attempt to place the subjective (whether a decision was good or not good) over the objective facts - the points per possession and box score stats.

A good shot from LaVine is in the flow of the offense while bad shot is when LaVine breaks the offense, make or miss doesn't negate that fact. Equally, when lauri tries to do too much and turns the ball over, or runs from the offense, that's trash basketball. If he fires from three or drives into the lane, at the very least he may get to the line.

Lavine IS the offense. I don't like that any more than you, but it is the truth. Coby may take some of that pressure off if he gets significant minutes beside Lavine like last night.

You can't break the offense, when you are the offense.

Or, we can watch the guards drive into the lane and then pass out to the 3 point line where 3 players who won't take a shot eventually pass it to Lauri for a miss.

Unfortunately the fact that he IS the offense is why offensive flow breaks.

Well fwiw, nice to hear Zach has Lauri’s back and (hopefully) vice versa. They should acknowledge that both can do things to help each other.

Well fwiw, nice to hear Zach has Lauri’s back and (hopefully) vice versa. They should acknowledge that both can do things to help each other.

MrSparkle wrote:Well fwiw, nice to hear Zach has Lauri’s back and (hopefully) vice versa. They should acknowledge that both can do things to help each other.

That's the redeeming hope is he does say the right things. He just needs to learn to play the right way.... Unfortunately he won't learn as a freereign alpha

Well zach is the ONLY starter with a positive BPM and only 1 of 2 guys on the entire team with a positive BMP.

IF Zach is really that bad , everybody else is worse.
Zach is 1 of the only reasons to watch this team.

Its absurd everybody has regressed on this team but zach stats remain above water.
On /off , defensive differential those are butt analytics that can be explained by poor rotations and 3-4 guard lineups.

You will find more people defending sato than the best player on the team.
Its whatever, this thread is a complete fallacy and the board makes enjoying this team worse than it already is.

Stratmaster wrote:

sco wrote:

ATRAIN53 wrote:Wow what a great breakdown by the OP.

He's a selfish player who wants to get up his shots and score his points. He sees these 40milion dollar deals getting inked by guys with less talent than him. He knows what Wiggins is getting paid. Is Todias Harris really worth 35mil a year?

But I think there is a chemistry issue here with the rest of the team.

Zach is the first one who stood up for Boylen. He's Boylens boy to the rest of team.
That locker room has issues.

I picture Zach sitting by himself at his locker and not joking/laughing with rest of team.
Those kind of locker rooms never win.

and He's JEALOUS of Coby White. He knows that kid has legit NBA talent and he does not want to watch him take over the team and win the fan base. It's sad because if he mentored him and they developed some chemistry - Zach and Coby are what todays NBA has turned into - a defenseless chuck fest. Could be a lethal combo in a year or so.

He's a very trade able contract, but replacing 20+PPG for less than 20mil is not possible.

It looks like you are speculating here. I do think that Zach has been playing selfish at times; however, it also seems like Lauri goes through stretches where he is hiding on offense...combine that with Otto being out and Sato being a pass first guy and I think those factors impact Zach's taking more shots than necessary.

I will also say that I think that Zach has been a big supporter of Coby's aggressiveness and is the first guy to give the kid kudos.

You were so kind the way you put that bolded part. I can learn from you.

aren't we ALL speculating here?

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:

mtron32 wrote:
A good shot from LaVine is in the flow of the offense while bad shot is when LaVine breaks the offense, make or miss doesn't negate that fact. Equally, when lauri tries to do too much and turns the ball over, or runs from the offense, that's trash basketball. If he fires from three or drives into the lane, at the very least he may get to the line.

Lavine IS the offense. I don't like that any more than you, but it is the truth. Coby may take some of that pressure off if he gets significant minutes beside Lavine like last night.

You can't break the offense, when you are the offense.

Or, we can watch the guards drive into the lane and then pass out to the 3 point line where 3 players who won't take a shot eventually pass it to Lauri for a miss.

Unfortunately the fact that he IS the offense is why offensive flow breaks.

Unfortunately, the point is that there is no other option.

ATRAIN53 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:

sco wrote:It looks like you are speculating here. I do think that Zach has been playing selfish at times; however, it also seems like Lauri goes through stretches where he is hiding on offense...combine that with Otto being out and Sato being a pass first guy and I think those factors impact Zach's taking more shots than necessary.

I will also say that I think that Zach has been a big supporter of Coby's aggressiveness and is the first guy to give the kid kudos.

You were so kind the way you put that bolded part. I can learn from you.

aren't we ALL speculating here?

Thats all we can really do because none of us here knows what the fuc is up with Lauri this year

ATRAIN53 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:

sco wrote:It looks like you are speculating here. I do think that Zach has been playing selfish at times; however, it also seems like Lauri goes through stretches where he is hiding on offense...combine that with Otto being out and Sato being a pass first guy and I think those factors impact Zach's taking more shots than necessary.

I will also say that I think that Zach has been a big supporter of Coby's aggressiveness and is the first guy to give the kid kudos.

You were so kind the way you put that bolded part. I can learn from you.

aren't we ALL speculating here?

No. At least not about unsubstantiated locker room issues, how players "feel", unsubstantiated selfishness etc.

Stratmaster wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:
Lavine IS the offense. I don't like that any more than you, but it is the truth. Coby may take some of that pressure off if he gets significant minutes beside Lavine like last night.

You can't break the offense, when you are the offense.

Or, we can watch the guards drive into the lane and then pass out to the 3 point line where 3 players who won't take a shot eventually pass it to Lauri for a miss.

Unfortunately the fact that he IS the offense is why offensive flow breaks.

Unfortunately, the point is that there is no other option.

Yeah there isn't personnel wise. To maximize Lavine, you need to play him off the ball more and less ball handling like Rubio and Booker but this system doesn't allow that type of play

Well it is a fallacy to say Zach is single-handedly killing the Bulls. If he was better off-the-ball, the Bulls would be significantly better. But since he's not, a variety of hypothetical issues do come up.

I think a high-volume player, just by virtue of accepting the task of putting up 20 shots and hopefully scoring at least 20 points, that helps an NBA team more than having a Satoransky "play the right way" and give you 8 ppg on 5 shots. Like I said in the summer, he was a tank commander without Wall (and good players in Beal and Porter). Everyone was quick to call Wall a terrible teammate, until the Wizards went from the deep playoffs to the lottery.

Scoring pressure counts for something.

Zach's defensive issues are a thing. They need some defensive athletes (wings and big) and a better coach. That's still my 2c.

"Addition by subtraction" is kind of a myth IMO, unless player X (to be subtracted) is just killing your cap-space AND playing very inefficient basketball. We subtracted Deng and Boozer (who were declining, overpaid, 1-way players) for cap-space and became worse. OK I guess Deng could give you 15+ ppg, but he also couldn't dribble a basketball which is kind of a problem for a modern SF. That's the thing, every player short of the two-way all-stars has a problem in their game. It's up to the coach to actually maximize the pros and mask the cons, more-so then "develop" their weaknesses.

Seeing as Lavine isn't a cap-hog and he's actually scoring on decent efficiency, I don't see the argument that he's a huge problem (if at all). I just understand that he's not a pillar to build around. I'm of the opinion that you can't build around a defensive sieve unless they're a great playmaker.

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:
Unfortunately the fact that he IS the offense is why offensive flow breaks.

Unfortunately, the point is that there is no other option.

Yeah there isn't personnel wise. To maximize Lavine, you need to play him off the ball more and less ball handling like Rubio and Booker but this system doesn't allow that type of play

I used to think that. But Zach has been doing a great job dishing the ball in first halves. They need to stop the spread offense ISO ball in q4 though. That is on Boylen. It has to be coming from the bench. Even if it isn't, which I would find incredulous, it's on Boylen to shut it down.

FriedRise wrote:

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Zach isn't a bad guy. Even his most aggressive detractors on this forum have never suggested that. He's obviously a nice kid, but unfortunately that doesn't make anyone a good NBA player.

LaVine says the "right" things regarding Lauri's problems, but I have a feeling Markkanen may not enjoy being the center of attention in this way. He's shy and private to begin with, and too well aware of the expectations he's failed lately. Undoubtedly Zach means well, but his tone may sound a bit condescending to Lauri - particularly when Zach hasn't exactly been playing great this season himself.

The problem with LaVine is pretty simple, when he isn't scoring the ball efficiently he doesn't add much other value (bad ATO, and awful defense). And he isn't elite offensively either, so when he is scoring it still limits his overall impact on the game.

We thought he might expand his game more, but unfortunately he hasn't. He certainly isn't single handedly killing the team, but he is a major problem.

bearadonisdna wrote:Well zach is the ONLY starter with a positive BPM and only 1 of 2 guys on the entire team with a positive BMP.

IF Zach is really that bad , everybody else is worse.
Zach is 1 of the only reasons to watch this team.

Its absurd everybody has regressed on this team but zach stats remain above water.
On /off , defensive differential those are butt analytics that can be explained by poor rotations and 3-4 guard lineups.

You will find more people defending sato than the best player on the team.
Its whatever, this thread is a complete fallacy and the board makes enjoying this team worse than it already is.

Talk about butt analytics. BPM on an 11 game sample. Thing is with Zach, it doesn't really matter who he is on the floor with, he makes everybody worse. He's an equal opportunity destroyer. Look at lineup data and isolate Zach with every other player on the team. It doesn't matter who he plays with or who he plays against. The team falls apart when he is on the floor. He's terrible. His low IQ brings everybody down with him. He drags the entire roster down with him. He sits down and the team comes alive when you watch the games.

Zach is just a dumb player. People used to joke about Rose being dumb but Rose was actually one of the the smarter players on the court. Zach truly is just dumb and I don't think there's any way to change that. He would work best as a scoring guard off the bench. Anything more and you're asking too much of him.

Then you have Lauri who isn't dumb, he just sucks.

So our two best players, Zach and Lauri, are dumb and sorry. With that in mind our record is pretty spot on.

Single-handedly ???

If it wasn't for Zach who would score in this team ?

Putting the blame on the players is one of the reasons GarPax still has a job after 20 years but lets play this blame game:

The 7 footer that seems doesn't care anymore ?
The 15 minutes / 6 fouls per game center ?
The injure prone expensive contract guy ?
The 6.7 career ppg new point guard ?
Felicio ???

Unless Coby has one of those sporadic scoring flukes nobody will put the ball in the basket like Lavine does.

The entire team is playing awful, one guy isn't the only one responsible for the team's struggles.

Stratmaster wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:
Unfortunately, the point is that there is no other option.

Yeah there isn't personnel wise. To maximize Lavine, you need to play him off the ball more and less ball handling like Rubio and Booker but this system doesn't allow that type of play

I used to think that. But Zach has been doing a great job dishing the ball in first halves. They need to stop the spread offense ISO ball in q4 though. That is on Boylen. It has to be coming from the bench. Even if it isn't, which I would find incredulous, it's on Boylen to shut it down.

This is true. The Bulls are a great 1st Q team and a great 1st half team. They usually start to fall apart about half way through the 3rd. Then Zach start to take over the ball handling duties more and by the mid-4th Q, he is playing point and the team is foundering hard.

If we can get Zach off the ball and keep him off the ball, the Bulls will start winning games. Lavine can score with the best of them. He can even make tough shots look easy. Problem is you just cannot have the ball in his hands in pressure situations.

FriedRise wrote:

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Okay, I like that he has his back, hpefully these fellas can form like Voltron over the nest 20 games