PG - Fire Jimbo before we play the Pistons or the Hornets

[RSP83]

KC's article: https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/heres-where-rough-bulls-season-stands-competitive-losses-mark-progress?amp&__twitter_impression=true

hmm... the article seems to suggest that Pax been involved in the coaching and play design... Probably Doug Collins is also involved in this.

"PORTLAND, Ore. — Jim Boylen talks to executive vice president John Paxson every day and senior adviser Doug Collins almost as often."

"They’ve been very supportive. What I do is I include them in everything. They’re in our team video sessions. John was at practice [Thursday]. There’s no situation where they don’t know what’s being taught and how we’re teaching it.”

Is it possible that Boylen is just a dummy figure? it's all Doug and Pax behind this? hence why Boylen don't seem to have any adjustment and just keep pushing that the team will continue to do this until it works?

Man this is becoming really weird.

EDIT: Why run the practice and game plan through Pax and Doug everyday? Boylen is like the anti-Thibs. This dynamics is not normal between coach and FO right?

[beeshma]

KC's article: https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/heres-where-rough-bulls-season-stands-competitive-losses-mark-progress?amp&__twitter_impression=true

hmm... the article seems to suggest that Pax been involved in the coaching and play design... Probably Doug Collins is also involved in this.

"PORTLAND, Ore. — Jim Boylen talks to executive vice president John Paxson every day and senior adviser Doug Collins almost as often."

"They’ve been very supportive. What I do is I include them in everything. They’re in our team video sessions. John was at practice [Thursday]. There’s no situation where they don’t know what’s being taught and how we’re teaching it.”

Is it possible that Boylen is just a dummy figure? it's all Doug and Pax behind this? hence why Boylen don't seem to have any adjustment and just keep pushing that the team will continue to do this until it works?

Man this is becoming really weird.

This reminds me of why Thibs was fired... one reason was because the management said he didn't respond to their requests on how to coach the team. Thibs wanted clear boundaries and thought FO should assemble the team while he coached them.

[coldfish]

KC's article: https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/heres-where-rough-bulls-season-stands-competitive-losses-mark-progress?amp&__twitter_impression=true

hmm... the article seems to suggest that Pax been involved in the coaching and play design... Probably Doug Collins is also involved in this.

"PORTLAND, Ore. — Jim Boylen talks to executive vice president John Paxson every day and senior adviser Doug Collins almost as often."

"They’ve been very supportive. What I do is I include them in everything. They’re in our team video sessions. John was at practice [Thursday]. There’s no situation where they don’t know what’s being taught and how we’re teaching it.”

Is it possible that Boylen is just a dummy figure? it's all Doug and Pax behind this? hence why Boylen don't seem to have any adjustment and just keep pushing that the team will continue to do this until it works?

Man this is becoming really weird.

EDIT: Why run the practice and game plan through Pax and Doug everyday? Boylen is like the anti-Thibs. This dynamics is not normal between coach and FO right?

I have been saying for weeks that the rotation was clearly dictated by the FO. The offense change was weird. Last year's system worked. Now thinking that Pax and Doug created it makes more sense.

Don't get me wrong, Boylen sucks but this is why he got the extension. He is willing to stand on the sidelines and take the heat or talk to reporters after games and make a fool of himself. He isn't the coach. The FO is acting as coaches. Paxson has wanted to do this since Vinny and now he found a coach willing to let him do it.

I have long been willing to give Paxson the benefit of doubt but he really has his hands all over this mess. If anything, Gar seems to be the guy in the clear right now.

[MrSparkle]

Well, sounds like I hate Pax and Collins more than ever. Ugh.

Those two should stick to color commentary and organizational fundraisers.

Most outdated power grabbers in the NBA.

Also sounds like too many chefs in the kitchen.

They’re trying to cook ravioli out of croutons.

Such a cluster ****.

All of them should be fired and removed from office.

[Hangtime84]

IMO people are looking for answers that don't exist out of Boylen and then ripping him endlessly for what he does say as a way to cope with the fact that there isn't much to say.

This team is bad IMO almost entirely because Zach Lavine and Lauri Markannen aren't nearly good enough yet.

Some fans feel the offense isn’t good enough to maximize their talents. Personally I feel those players aren’t good enough at all.

[RSP83]

KC's article: https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/heres-where-rough-bulls-season-stands-competitive-losses-mark-progress?amp&__twitter_impression=true

hmm... the article seems to suggest that Pax been involved in the coaching and play design... Probably Doug Collins is also involved in this.

"PORTLAND, Ore. — Jim Boylen talks to executive vice president John Paxson every day and senior adviser Doug Collins almost as often."

"They’ve been very supportive. What I do is I include them in everything. They’re in our team video sessions. John was at practice [Thursday]. There’s no situation where they don’t know what’s being taught and how we’re teaching it.”

Is it possible that Boylen is just a dummy figure? it's all Doug and Pax behind this? hence why Boylen don't seem to have any adjustment and just keep pushing that the team will continue to do this until it works?

Man this is becoming really weird.

EDIT: Why run the practice and game plan through Pax and Doug everyday? Boylen is like the anti-Thibs. This dynamics is not normal between coach and FO right?

I have been saying for weeks that the rotation was clearly dictated by the FO. The offense change was weird. Last year's system worked. Now thinking that Pax and Doug created it makes more sense.

Don't get me wrong, Boylen sucks but this is why he got the extension. He is willing to stand on the sidelines and take the heat or talk to reporters after games and make a fool of himself. He isn't the coach. The FO is acting as coaches. Paxson has wanted to do this since Vinny and now he found a coach willing to let him do it.

I have long been willing to give Paxson the benefit of doubt but he really has his hands all over this mess. If anything, Gar seems to be the guy in the clear right now.

Makes sense. Actually shows how different is Gar and Pax in their approach.

Gar hired Thibs and Hoiberg. Thibs was more JR choice, but Gar was the active GM then. Hoiberg was Gar's personal choice. Gar's coaching staff choice seems to have clearer credential.

Pax, outside of Skiles, hired Vinny and Boylen? two little known coaches. Pax want to have some control over the coaching decisions? It's not looking good for Pax.

I'm thinking Gar's power in making decision was stripped off the same time Hoiberg was fired. And before that Pax already brought in Doug as advisor. So, maybe GarPax was really not as cohesive as we thought. At least when Hoiberg was struggling, Pax is planning something else not necessarily supporting Gar and Hoiberg.

[Ice Man]

Just because they are middle of the pack in points given up per game doesn't mean the defense is good.

We are in the middle of the pack in points conceded with possession, which is a more meaningful stat. The two best are Toronto and Denver, the two worst are the Warriors and Wizards, and we are in 14th, with OKC just ahead of us and Houston just behind. Respectable.

The offensive rating, surprisingly to me, is not dead last. We're at #29th, somehow ahead of the (pitiful) Magic.

[RememberLu]

Read on Twitter

We really set our franchise back with our inability to get Luka Doncic or Trae Young, or anyone who's a difference maker, really.

[MrSparkle]

Just because they are middle of the pack in points given up per game doesn't mean the defense is good.

We are in the middle of the pack in points conceded with possession, which is a more meaningful stat. The two best are Toronto and Denver, the two worst are the Warriors and Wizards, and we are in 14th, with OKC just ahead of us and Houston just behind. Respectable.

The offensive rating, surprisingly to me, is not dead last. We're at #29th, somehow ahead of the (pitiful) Magic.

Who have a similarly poorly constructed roster. Burned a powerful #7 pick on a backup center project, while resigning (long-term) a veteran mid-tier starting center. They have a log-jam of underachieving PFs. An overpaid defensive seive at SG. A PG who can’t shoot. Gee all sounds familiar, except they have wings.

However, every position on this Bulls team has more talented shooters and scorers than the Magic, which is why I find Boylen’s offensive scheme to be a flaming failure.

And I don’t think the Bulls’ defense is nearly as good as the metrics suggest. They overplay their defense for the first 2.5 quarters, with a very deep and absurd 10-12 man rotation and a lot of press from pesky small guards.

The gimmick falls short by the 4th Q when opposing teams decide to slap away the fruit flies. This defense is softer than the soft Hoiberg defenses between 2015-18, because there are virtually no wings and big rebounders on the team.

Lauri’s feet are jello by the 2nd half. I am at the point of recommending an offensive nightmare pairing of Gafford and Carter, just to see if they can dominate the paint on the defensive end.

Fact that Boylen continues running hockey line-up changes, I dunno what his end goal is. Bulls are playing really hard for December 6-14 results. It is actually absurd that he hasn’t made fast pace offense more of a focus, with Coby and Zach having more freedom to run and improvise, with a more simplistic zone style defense, securing boards and pushing the ball.

Instead they keep doing this blitz thing, giving up offensive boards, tiring the micro big rotation way the hell out, and just running the most brutal head-in-the-wall offense I’ve ever seen.

To have 3 PGs on the floor and not be able to play simple pretty basketball? Have 2-3 ballhandlers stand still for 3Ps, with Zach, Sato or Dunn trying to create half-court sets? Jesus christ.

Everything is backwards.

[Ice Man]

And I don’t think the Bulls’ defense is nearly as good as the metrics suggest. They overplay their defense for the first 2.5 quarters, with a very deep and absurd 10-12 man rotation and a lot of press from pesky small guards.

The gimmick falls short by the 4th Q when opposing teams decide to slap away the fruit flies. This defense is softer than the soft Hoiberg defenses between 2015-18, because there are virtually no wings and big rebounders on the team.

I'm alright with that tactic. The alternative to to underplay, with two weak defenders (Lauri and LaVine) in the starting rotation. That wouldn't get us above where we are. We'd be better in the 4th because fresher, but we'd have a lot of games wherein would we give up 35 points or so in the 1st and then be chasing the game.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. It's never going to be easy when we score so poorly while not fielding an elite defensive/rebounding roster.

[johnnyvann840]

They all need to go. Gar, Pax and Boylen. Take the training staff and medical staff with them. Clean house completely. This organization is rotten to the core.

This team has had the easiest schedule in the league and they are on a 24 win pace now. This is a disaster. A total failure. These clowns need to own it and GTFO.

[MrSparkle]

And I don’t think the Bulls’ defense is nearly as good as the metrics suggest. They overplay their defense for the first 2.5 quarters, with a very deep and absurd 10-12 man rotation and a lot of press from pesky small guards.

The gimmick falls short by the 4th Q when opposing teams decide to slap away the fruit flies. This defense is softer than the soft Hoiberg defenses between 2015-18, because there are virtually no wings and big rebounders on the team.

I'm alright with that tactic. The alternative to to underplay, with two weak defenders (Lauri and LaVine) in the starting rotation. That wouldn't get us above where we are. We'd be better in the 4th because fresher, but we'd have a lot of games wherein would we give up 35 points or so in the 1st and then be chasing the game.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. It's never going to be easy when we score so poorly while not fielding an elite defensive/rebounding roster.

I don’t like it. I don’t see the developmental point of it. If this is what it’s come to, then Paxson and Gar should be making salary dump trades immediately and scrounging assets and cap flexibility, cause they ** up this build, really bad.

Year 3 with no direction or player(s) core to build a concept around? Five lotto picks (Dunn/Zach/Lauri, Wendell, Coby) and $30m in cap-space later?

Boylen’s job should be trying to make Zach, Lauri, Coby and Wendell fill the statlines. Period.

That’s how the NBA works. You develop your 2-3 best players and you basically manage the rest as moving parts, just try to overachieve for trade purposes, and if a chemistry really comes thru, you can evaluate sticking with it.

I don’t see the point in instilling some kind of defensive chemistry between hopeless gimmick 5-man line-up combos. It’s a waste of a season. 75% of this roster is gone in 2 years.

[RedBulls23]

Read on Twitter

[Droseisthe1]

The ReinsDORKS are the saddest ownership group aside from James Dolan. What a sad state of affairs. Unbelievable to see the ineptitude on display. They've soured one of the greatest sports franchises ever. Such a shame. No wonder no star wants to come here and play.

[Michael Jackson]

Read on Twitter

Woody also played in Chicago that season. Thanks for posting a guy I never heard of. Had no idea that the Wizards started in Chicago as the Packers. That stuff is always interesting like the fact that the Cubs were once the White Stockings.

[kodo]

Makes sense. Actually shows how different is Gar and Pax in their approach.

Gar hired Thibs and Hoiberg. Thibs was more JR choice, but Gar was the active GM then. Hoiberg was Gar's personal choice. Gar's coaching staff choice seems to have clearer credential.

Pax, outside of Skiles, hired Vinny and Boylen? two little known coaches. Pax want to have some control over the coaching decisions? It's not looking good for Pax.

I'm thinking Gar's power in making decision was stripped off the same time Hoiberg was fired. And before that Pax already brought in Doug as advisor. So, maybe GarPax was really not as cohesive as we thought. At least when Hoiberg was struggling, Pax is planning something else not necessarily supporting Gar and Hoiberg.

Skiles was a Paxson hire.
VDN was hired by JR, Paxson didn't want him. Paxson's top two choices were Collins and Dwayne Casey.
Thibs was hired by JR, Gar didn't want him. Top candidates were Lawrence Frank, Cheeks, & McHale.
Hoiberg was hired by Foreman.
Boylen was just part of the Hoiberg staff; I don't consider us to have moved on. We're just being cheap living off the fact that we have an $800k assistant masquerading as a HC and Hoiberg is now paid by Nebraska so we're off the hook for his salary too. Financial home run.

The idea of getting an accomplished HC with proven results is interesting, but a guy like SVG costs $7M per year. We don't know how much Vogel made, but his Indy deal was $5.5M per year so I assume LA paid him even more.

I just don't see the organization radically changing from what we've always done back to the Phil Jackson days and hiring an experienced proven HC, we just have never done that except for the Paxson-Skiles exception. And firing Paxson & Foreman will change none of that, because both have a history of wanting to hire veteran coaches and have been overruled.

[Dresden]

IMO people are looking for answers that don't exist out of Boylen and then ripping him endlessly for what he does say as a way to cope with the fact that there isn't much to say.

This team is bad IMO almost entirely because Zach Lavine and Lauri Markannen aren't nearly good enough yet.

Some fans feel the offense isn’t good enough to maximize their talents. Personally I feel those players aren’t good enough at all.

Bingo to the OP. If Lauri were putting up 20/10 on good efficiency, and Zach were more efficient as well, and Sato doing a better job at pg, this would all look entirely different. They're trying to make the proverbial silk purse out of a sow's ear, and it just isn't possible. This is a player's league, almost always has been, and the Bulls just don't have the players.

Maybe things will turn around in the second half, and the above players will start proving their worth, and Coby White will be most consistently a scoring weapon off the bench. We'll see.

[Dresden]

Makes sense. Actually shows how different is Gar and Pax in their approach.

Gar hired Thibs and Hoiberg. Thibs was more JR choice, but Gar was the active GM then. Hoiberg was Gar's personal choice. Gar's coaching staff choice seems to have clearer credential.

Pax, outside of Skiles, hired Vinny and Boylen? two little known coaches. Pax want to have some control over the coaching decisions? It's not looking good for Pax.

I'm thinking Gar's power in making decision was stripped off the same time Hoiberg was fired. And before that Pax already brought in Doug as advisor. So, maybe GarPax was really not as cohesive as we thought. At least when Hoiberg was struggling, Pax is planning something else not necessarily supporting Gar and Hoiberg.

Skiles was a Paxson hire.
VDN was hired by JR, Paxson didn't want him. Paxson's top two choices were Collins and Dwayne Casey.
Thibs was hired by JR, Gar didn't want him. Top candidates were Lawrence Frank, Cheeks, & McHale.
Hoiberg was hired by Foreman.
Boylen was just part of the Hoiberg staff; I don't consider us to have moved on. We're just being cheap living off the fact that we have an $800k assistant masquerading as a HC and Hoiberg is now paid by Nebraska so we're off the hook for his salary too. Financial home run.

The idea of getting an accomplished HC with proven results is interesting, but a guy like SVG costs $7M per year. We don't know how much Vogel made, but his Indy deal was $5.5M per year so I assume LA paid him even more.

I just don't see the organization radically changing from what we've always done back to the Phil Jackson days and hiring an experienced proven HC, we just have never done that except for the Paxson-Skiles exception. And firing Paxson & Foreman will change none of that, because both have a history of wanting to hire veteran coaches and have been overruled.

The idea that this is all about saving money is nonsense. When team payrolls are 100 mil plus, if you really thought spending an extra 5 mil to maximize that talent was an option, you would be very pennywise and pound foolish not to do so. Putting such a bad product on the floor is costing them more money than they can possibly be saving having such a cheap HC.

[SfBull]

Lauri is letting the team down this first quarter of the season.

I think Jim is banking on Lauri breaking out of his funk. Is it a funk? Or is it just how he's being used? huh Jim?

Boylen is an idiot. But the only thing wrong with how Lauri is being used is that he’s being allowed to play at all.

You really think he should be benched due to the poor start? I don't. He's basically our only hope. Playing Thaddeus Young and Carter or Hutch at the 4 might help get more wins in the immediate short term, but IMO Lauri needs at least half a season of this garbage before he's benched.

We´re really screwed if Lauri is our only hope,better build around Zach ,we won´t win games playing 4x5 .Teams are clearly exploiting his weakness on defense ,Wendell´s foul problems are clearly related with Lauri´s poor play.

[GrowingHorns]

Boylen shifting goal posts on the season in the post game suggesting it's now a developmental season. Way to acknowledge the obvious at last.

Will Purdue might have solved the problem of Zach getting blocked at the rim. The issue is we don't have Robin punishing teams with the short midrange shot anymore and they pack the paint. If Wendell takes more of those shots life may get easier for Zach and others. Makes sense to me.

Lauri also made about half of shots from 5-9 ft and get some and'1s at times too. But somehow we just don't run any short midrange plays. Only lately he has taken few, but is rusty, but i think for his three to start fall, would be better start taking more shots from the range he has at some point made half of them.