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I can buy the argument that Kawhi's 1 year limits his ceiling on a Raptors all time list. I can't buy Vince not being above DD.

1-2 is Lowry/VC.

KrazyP wrote:Derozan's putting up close to a .600 TS% this year for a perimeter player without a 3pt shot which is pretty impressive.

When it comes to efficiency....role, system, coaching, teammates can have a HUGE impact. This is a concept that many fans on this board have struggled to understand over the years. Its the reason why Siakam was .628 TS% last year but has dropped significantly to .555 TS% this year.

Demar's defense still leaves something to be desired but theres a lot of scorers in the league that play no D....Brad Beal, Lou Will, CJ McCollom, Booker, etc are all crap defensively and several of them are also highly inefficient in their given roles...that doesnt mean they are all useless.

Brad Beal has been a net +ve for his team 5 of 8 years, and 2 of his -ve years he was -1 and -0.5. His only really bad year is this year, when he has been just as bad as Derozan.

Lou Williams makes like 7 million bucks nad is not a star player...but has still been a net +ve 8 of his 15 seasons, and 7 of his last 11.

CJ McCollum has been a net +ve 5 of 7 seasons in the league, One of his -ves was as a rookie coming out of mid-major college ball - understandable adjustment year.

Devin Booker has been a net +ve 3 of his 5 seasons, with one of his -ves being his rookie year (age 19) and the other being a -0.8.

Again, Demar Derozan has been a net +ve ONCE in 11 seasons. Once of 11. He doesn't deserve to be in the same conversation with those other guys, who actually improve their teams. Demar makes teams worse.

Certainly showed he’s the best tonight

Demar made clown posters and their dumb nicknames look stupid tonight .

Smitson wrote:Demar made clown posters and their dumb nicknames look stupid tonight .

I think we all know Demar is a great regular season player...it's the playoffs where he disappoints

FreshyFlames wrote:

Indeed wrote:Vince Carter played 6 years
Chris Bosh played 7 years
Lowry playing his 8th years
DeRozan played 9 years

Basketball Reference All-Time WinShare (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/)
1) Lowry
2) Bosh
3) DeRozan
4) Carter
5) Valančiūnas

In terms of raw stats where DeRozan has the lead (eg. minutes played, DeRozan has 20% more minutes than Bosh as 2nd), but advance stats is not the case, and Lowry is among the best, which is why he is greatest. As for DeRozan, he served the longest, but may not be the greatest. Would you rank MoPete one of the greatest as well? 7 years with the Raptors.

JV is not top 5

I do not own nor related to Basketball-Reference, and neither related to WinShare formula. If you disagree with the fact that the advance stats WinShare is inaccurate from Basketball Reference that has JV being the top 5, please contact the website directly or take legal action towards it yourself

DarkKnight wrote:

KrazyP wrote:Derozan's putting up close to a .600 TS% this year for a perimeter player without a 3pt shot which is pretty impressive.

When it comes to efficiency....role, system, coaching, teammates can have a HUGE impact. This is a concept that many fans on this board have struggled to understand over the years. Its the reason why Siakam was .628 TS% last year but has dropped significantly to .555 TS% this year.

Demar's defense still leaves something to be desired but theres a lot of scorers in the league that play no D....Brad Beal, Lou Will, CJ McCollom, Booker, etc are all crap defensively and several of them are also highly inefficient in their given roles...that doesnt mean they are all useless.

Brad Beal has been a net +ve for his team 5 of 8 years, and 2 of his -ve years he was -1 and -0.5. His only really bad year is this year, when he has been just as bad as Derozan.

Lou Williams makes like 7 million bucks nad is not a star player...but has still been a net +ve 8 of his 15 seasons, and 7 of his last 11.

CJ McCollum has been a net +ve 5 of 7 seasons in the league, One of his -ves was as a rookie coming out of mid-major college ball - understandable adjustment year.

Devin Booker has been a net +ve 3 of his 5 seasons, with one of his -ves being his rookie year (age 19) and the other being a -0.8.

Again, Demar Derozan has been a net +ve ONCE in 11 seasons. Once of 11. He doesn't deserve to be in the same conversation with those other guys, who actually improve their teams. Demar makes teams worse.

Advanced stats are good analytical tools but no single advanced stat is the be all and end all of analysis. You always have to consider all status as well as role, roster construct, coaching, system, etc.

Look at tonight....Demar was a net negative but if you were watching the game had any sense of how basketball works, he had a massive impact on the game. If he sucks so much, why was the Raptors defense completely collapsing around him allowing him outlet passes to open shooters?

Looking at it another way - The Raps team that made the ECF a few years ago and took the Lebron-Irving-Love Cavs to 6 games featured complete scrubs like Luis Scola, Bismack Biyombo, Patrick Patterson, Demarre Carroll, etc in prominent roles. When a guy Carroll shat the bed, we turned to young, inexperienced, undersized, wildly inconsistent guys like Powell and Ross to fill the void.

Nobody with a rational mind would argue that if you took Demar off that team, it would be better....yet thats what the "net negative" argument is. Who exactly would have filled the offensive void?

In reality, Demar topped off at about top 30ish player and the team as previously constructed needed him to be better than that in order to get over the Lebron playoff hump.

Smitson wrote:Demar made clown posters and their dumb nicknames look stupid tonight .

One game... still so glad we traded him... even a broken clock is correct twice a day...

Most Definitely

Put it this way... If it had not been for Kyle and DeMar laying the foundation and building a winning culture in Toronto, the Raptors would never even been in a position to deal for a 1 year of kawhi

NBJ13 wrote:Put it this way... If it had not been for Kyle and DeMar laying the foundation and building a winning culture in Toronto, the Raptors would never even been in a position to deal for a 1 year of kawhi

ya you gotta give Demar at least some respect for being good enough to be a trade piece for a superstar, without having to give up key young players like Siakam or OG.

1. Lowry - He's the main reason for 5 of our playoff berths/success (every one except our last).
2. Kawhi - He smokes a lot of weed and takes off a lot of games and wins championships.
3. Demar - He gets buckets like VC and Bosh but he loves our city and isn't a sore loser.
4. Siakam - He has the potential to be higher but he needs to prove it this year.
5. Carter - He put us on an imaginary map.
6. Bosh - He's literally a dinosaur.

DarkKnight wrote:

KrazyP wrote:Derozan's putting up close to a .600 TS% this year for a perimeter player without a 3pt shot which is pretty impressive.

When it comes to efficiency....role, system, coaching, teammates can have a HUGE impact. This is a concept that many fans on this board have struggled to understand over the years. Its the reason why Siakam was .628 TS% last year but has dropped significantly to .555 TS% this year.

Demar's defense still leaves something to be desired but theres a lot of scorers in the league that play no D....Brad Beal, Lou Will, CJ McCollom, Booker, etc are all crap defensively and several of them are also highly inefficient in their given roles...that doesnt mean they are all useless.

Brad Beal has been a net +ve for his team 5 of 8 years, and 2 of his -ve years he was -1 and -0.5. His only really bad year is this year, when he has been just as bad as Derozan.

Lou Williams makes like 7 million bucks nad is not a star player...but has still been a net +ve 8 of his 15 seasons, and 7 of his last 11.

CJ McCollum has been a net +ve 5 of 7 seasons in the league, One of his -ves was as a rookie coming out of mid-major college ball - understandable adjustment year.

Devin Booker has been a net +ve 3 of his 5 seasons, with one of his -ves being his rookie year (age 19) and the other being a -0.8.

Again, Demar Derozan has been a net +ve ONCE in 11 seasons. Once of 11. He doesn't deserve to be in the same conversation with those other guys, who actually improve their teams. Demar makes teams worse.

This is false.

Its actually 5 of 11, with 1 season being a 0.0.

Youre conflating on/off stats, with being a net positive.

vini_vidi_vici wrote:

DarkKnight wrote:

KrazyP wrote:Derozan's putting up close to a .600 TS% this year for a perimeter player without a 3pt shot which is pretty impressive.

When it comes to efficiency....role, system, coaching, teammates can have a HUGE impact. This is a concept that many fans on this board have struggled to understand over the years. Its the reason why Siakam was .628 TS% last year but has dropped significantly to .555 TS% this year.

Demar's defense still leaves something to be desired but theres a lot of scorers in the league that play no D....Brad Beal, Lou Will, CJ McCollom, Booker, etc are all crap defensively and several of them are also highly inefficient in their given roles...that doesnt mean they are all useless.

Brad Beal has been a net +ve for his team 5 of 8 years, and 2 of his -ve years he was -1 and -0.5. His only really bad year is this year, when he has been just as bad as Derozan.

Lou Williams makes like 7 million bucks nad is not a star player...but has still been a net +ve 8 of his 15 seasons, and 7 of his last 11.

CJ McCollum has been a net +ve 5 of 7 seasons in the league, One of his -ves was as a rookie coming out of mid-major college ball - understandable adjustment year.

Devin Booker has been a net +ve 3 of his 5 seasons, with one of his -ves being his rookie year (age 19) and the other being a -0.8.

Again, Demar Derozan has been a net +ve ONCE in 11 seasons. Once of 11. He doesn't deserve to be in the same conversation with those other guys, who actually improve their teams. Demar makes teams worse.

This is false.

Its actually 5 of 11, with 1 season being a 0.0.

Youre conflating on/off stats, with being a net positive.

The net negative, DD makes teams worse, the entire narrative has taken on a life of its own. So it’s not like people are going to be using much context in any of it including on/off.

1. Lowry
2. Kawhi
3. Derozan
4. VC
5. Bosh
6. Siakim

Siakim will move up the ranks in the next 4 years here.

Siakam honestly has a chance to finish as nunber 1. If he truly is a 25ppg guy and does that for the next 5 years he’s easily the #1 guy I think.

YogurtProducer wrote:Siakam honestly has a chance to finish as nunber 1. If he truly is a 25ppg guy and does that for the next 5 years he’s easily the #1 guy I think.

Bosh was averaging 22-24 ppg during his tenure as a raptor, and he’s no ones choice for #1. It’ll take a lot to dethrone Kyle.

I know we look at stats etc to determine greatest player
Is the question greatest player on the court or impact to the organization

I was never a huge fan of Derozan - due to the stats we look at- thought he was flawed, did not bring Defense, limited range on O,
hurt the team in playoffs when he reverted back to shooting in and out of games.

But - he kept going here in Toronto - improved every year - Kept Lowry happy here. Provided a stable winning team year after year with lowry. Then flipped for a true superstar.

Derozan has done a lot for the organization - paid above his head but he was committed and provided winning seasons then flipped him for a Championship.
He is a good player - maybe a 6th man ala Lou Williams on a true contender

IN terms of Raptors players historically - he has done THE MOST.

RonaldArtest wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:Siakam honestly has a chance to finish as nunber 1. If he truly is a 25ppg guy and does that for the next 5 years he’s easily the #1 guy I think.

Bosh was averaging 22-24 ppg during his tenure as a raptor, and he’s no ones choice for #1. It’ll take a lot to dethrone Kyle.

With a total of 2 playoff appearances and zero series wins. If Raptors are winning series the next few years with Siakam as a number , he will easily pass Bosh

Nurse doesnt overplay our scrubs and we win this walking away and dd with another loss...

Most overrated player who vanished in playoffs while with raps... he is not even top 4 all time on raps... sorry dd fanboys....