The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA

[noreaster23]

For context, here is the Real GM Top 25 Player Poll 2020-2021 from the beginning of the season:

1)LeBron James (LAL) - 53%
2)Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 47%
3)Luka Doncic (DAL) - 37%
4)Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 34%
5)Anthony Davis (LAL) - 35%
6)James Harden (HOU) - 39%
7)Steph Curry (GSW) - 33%
8)Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 42%
9)Kevin Durant (BKN) - 46%
10)Damian Lillard (POR) - 38%
11)Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 57%
12)Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 41%
13)Joel Embiid (PHI) - 59%
14)Devin Booker (PHX) - 22%
15)Chris Paul (PHX) - 24%
16)Paul George (LAC) - 21%
17)Bradley Beal (WAS) - 22%
18)Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 22%
19)Ben Simmons (PHI) - 26%
20)Kyle Lowry (TOR) - 28%
21)Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 26%
22)Bam Adebayo (MIA) - 24%
23)Jamal Murray (DEN) - 29%
24)Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 32%
25) Kyrie Irving - 33%

[Metallikid]

The only place Jrue Holiday has ever been better than Kyle Lowry is in his dreams.

[JB2]

For context, here is the Real GM Top 25 Player Poll 2020-2021 from the beginning of the season:

1)LeBron James (LAL) - 53%
2)Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 47%
3)Luka Doncic (DAL) - 37%
4)Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 34%
5)Anthony Davis (LAL) - 35%
6)James Harden (HOU) - 39%
7)Steph Curry (GSW) - 33%
8)Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 42%
9)Kevin Durant (BKN) - 46%
10)Damian Lillard (POR) - 38%
11)Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 57%
12)Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 41%
13)Joel Embiid (PHI) - 59%
14)Devin Booker (PHX) - 22%
15)Chris Paul (PHX) - 24%
16)Paul George (LAC) - 21%
17)Bradley Beal (WAS) - 22%
18)Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 22%
19)Ben Simmons (PHI) - 26%
20)Kyle Lowry (TOR) - 28%
21)Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 26%
22)Bam Adebayo (MIA) - 24%
23)Jamal Murray (DEN) - 29%
24)Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 32%
25) Kyle Lowry - 33%

Kyle Lowry made it twice? Jamal Murray made it at all?

[Metallikid]

For context, here is the Real GM Top 25 Player Poll 2020-2021 from the beginning of the season:

1)LeBron James (LAL) - 53%
2)Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 47%
3)Luka Doncic (DAL) - 37%
4)Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 34%
5)Anthony Davis (LAL) - 35%
6)James Harden (HOU) - 39%
7)Steph Curry (GSW) - 33%
8)Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 42%
9)Kevin Durant (BKN) - 46%
10)Damian Lillard (POR) - 38%
11)Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 57%
12)Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 41%
13)Joel Embiid (PHI) - 59%
14)Devin Booker (PHX) - 22%
15)Chris Paul (PHX) - 24%
16)Paul George (LAC) - 21%
17)Bradley Beal (WAS) - 22%
18)Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 22%
19)Ben Simmons (PHI) - 26%
20)Kyle Lowry (TOR) - 28%
21)Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 26%
22)Bam Adebayo (MIA) - 24%
23)Jamal Murray (DEN) - 29%
24)Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 32%
25) Kyle Lowry - 33%

Kyle Lowry made it twice? Jamal Murray made it at all?

Kyle Lowry is good enough to be listed twice (#25 was actually Kyrie Irving I believe), and Murray had the huge bubble bump.

[YogurtProducer]

...because you are under-rating quite how good he has been...

How do? Sabonis is the much efficient scorer and IMO is better suited for playoff basketball.

Defense is hard to judge but I don’t think Randles D is enough to push him ahead of Sabonis.

Randle was actually better on a per minute basis offensively outside of his playmaking while in NOP and no one even considered him a top 50 guy let alone top 20. It’s recency bias at its finest.

I can understand why someone trying to argue for Sabonis would like to ignore the defensive side of the game


...how do I even respond to your last paragraph? 'If we ignore this fundamental aspect of what is making Randle so good this season, he was better in New Orleans on a per minute basis'...okay then, let's start with: No, he wasn't, even if we set Randle's playmaking this season aside for now, he has become an excellent 3pt shooter, which has made him so much more dangerous as a scorer than he was coming off the bench behind AD & Boogie.

Then let's recognize that scaling up your playing time makes it a lot harder to maintain impressive "per minute" production, so that managing to do so is a significant sign of improvement. Not only because larger sample sizes minimize the impact of luck, but also because a guy playing 37 minutes a night as the engine of his team's offense faces completely different defensive attention from the opposition than a 6th man does when he's torching bench units.

Next let's loop back to this "if we ignore his playmaking" thing...Randle becoming an excellent playmaker (like becoming a top tier 3pt shooter) completely changed his game & the impact he is capable of making. How well he takes advantage of his increased gravity to create good looks for his team-mates is an absolutely massive part of what has made him so exceptional this season. You can't just ignore it because it's inconvenient for the "point" you think you are making.


Finally...you can't call a list of the top 25 players this season out for recency bias. Focusing on this season was the whole damn point of the exercise

I think you’re taking my comments a little to close to heart. Sabonis certainly isn’t a bad defender and Randle isn’t elite. We’re not comparing Kawhi and Derozan here.

In NO Randle was playing 30mpg and actually scoring more efficiency (in a lower efficiency era, which is crazy to say since it was only a few years ago), and playmaking less. The overall difference between his efficiency degrading a bit and his playmaking upgrading isn’t as big of a gap as yoy want to think.

Which brings me to my point - if Randle wasn’t a top 25 player in NO I really doubt he is now.

But here’s the thing, I don’t hate Randle. I like him, but he’s exhibit A for a guy getting overrated based off the last 60 games he’s played. If yoy swap Randle and Sabonis I don’t think either teams record or fortunes this season really change.

[Capn'O]

Catchall impact stats like VORP and Win Shares have Randle at 8 and 13 respectively. So

There’s so many good players right. Feels like players in that 15-30 range are very similar is just depends on whose around them.Throw a guy like Sabonis on a team where he isn’t a #1 guy and he shoots up the rankings. I just don’t think there’s much of a difference between #21 Randle, on the bubble Sabonis, or not mentioned Siakam. So so hard to get it down to 25 guys nowadays

Sounds like you're just under-rating how good Julius has been this season *shrug*

That's true and some people are having trouble forgiving his previous fake stats-ish seasons, but he's also in this weird spot where he's the unquestioned one-and-only creator for a slow defense-first team that's been a surprise. He doesn't really have any competition for his touches and gets to do his whole barrel-into-the-lane thing all day, and the team is winning because he's doing that well. So he's been very good but are we really comfortable saying that he's definitely a top-20 NBA player, and not just that he's thriving in a perfect spot for him?

He's kind of in that IT2 on the Celtics tip--on a good-not-great team that only needs him to create and score reasonably well to win more games than anyone expected them to. The year that IT2 scored almost 30 a game, people had these same debates--IT2 plays a crucial, crucial role to a team that's winning, but is he really a top-15 player? Would a guy like Brandon Ingram--who's scoring and dishing as much as Randle but nowhere close to this list--be looking as good if he was the Guy on the Knicks? Jaylen Brown?

Brown's not as good of an offensive player and Ingram's not as good of a defensive player. IT definitely didn't play as good defense.

That's where I think Julius should climb. He's been a really good 2-way player this year. He's also MASSIVELY improved his shooting. 40%+ from 3 on volume after being below 30% most seasons to date. This while taking and making stepback off the dribble type 3s. That goes beyond being a product of his situation. He's killing it.

[dakomish23]

There’s so many good players right. Feels like players in that 15-30 range are very similar is just depends on whose around them.

Throw a guy like Sabonis on a team where he isn’t a #1 guy and he shoots up the rankings. I just don’t think there’s much of a difference between #21 Randle, on the bubble Sabonis, or not mentioned Siakam.

So so hard to get it down to 25 guys nowadays

Sounds like you're just under-rating how good Julius has been this season *shrug*

Not really. He’s been really good don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think he’s been better than Sabonis and both are better but not miles over Siakam.

My point is the talent in the NBA is stacked right now and a guy like Siakam whose a 21-7-5 with good defence guy isn’t even discussed because there’s no much talent.

That was my point that those lower level guys from 15-30 are entirely “what have you done for me lately”. Siakam was 2nd all-nba averaging 23/7/3.5 and now isn’t even a top 25 player averaging 21/7/4.5 on identical efficiency.

Randle has played very good defense this year. I think that might have something to do with it. It’s not just one way with his great offensive numbers

[dautjazz]

I'm sorry, but anyone who takes Paul George over Rudy Gobert doesn't follow basketball close enough. Gobert turned the Jazz around as soon as his 2nd season, taking them from one of the worst defensive teams in the league to the best during the stretch he was starting. Each year the Jazz have gotten better, and while some players have come and gone, one thing has remained consistent, Gobert anchors one of the best defenses and is the Jazz's best player. Gobert gets a bad rap for his Warriors and Rockets series, but last year he held his own against the Nuggets, just that Jokic and Murray were unbelievable, and no Bojan was big.

[dautjazz]

I learned today that Julius Randle is rated higher than Donovan Mitchell.
I also learned Booker is better even though he avgs less across the board than Donny as well.

Honestly having the Knicks with a top record in the NBA and putting up monster numbers, I don't have a real problem with it. Randle's 24/10/6 line is impressive and he's even become a very good 3pt shooter. Randle has definitely carried the team more than Mitchell who has A LOT more help.

[celticfan42487]

Seems pretty good but yeah the top 5 seems bias towards who will win the MVP award this year instead of who's the best. I can see why they would do that as a news site.

[Packbuckman]

Joke of a list with Giannis at 7

[Upperclass]

Based on performance this season.. Correct list is
Jokic
Curry
Lebron
Embiid
Harden
Luka
Antetokounmpo
Durant
Lillard
Kawhi
Paul
Randle
Zion
Irving
Mitchell
Booker
George
AD
Westbrook
Tatum
Beal
Gobert
Butler
Trae
Lavine

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/5/4/22416337/top-25-nba-player-ranking-lebron-james-nikola-jokic

Curious what people thought of this. I always enjoy reading timely basketball analysis. I was glad Holiday and Randle got some love. Embiid made a big jump from past rankings. Nothing about this list made me cringe, and overall I'm just in awe at the collection of talent currently playing in the league.

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Lebron James
3. Joel Embiid
4. Steph Curry
5. Kevin Durant
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Giannis Antetokounmpo
8. James Harden
9. Anthony Davis
10. Luka Doncic
11. Damian Lillard
12. Chris Paul
13. Zion Williamson
14. Paul George
15. Jimmy Butler
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Jayson Tatum
18. Rudy Gobert
19. Bradley Beal
20. Devin Booker
21. Julius Randle
22. Donovan Mitchell
23. Bam Adebayo
24. Jrue Holiday
25. Karl Anthony Towns

Not making the cut: Ben Simmons, Domantas Sabonis, Jamal Murray, Trae Young, Russell Westbrook, Jaylen Brown, Mike Conley, Zach Lavine, Nikola Vucevic, Brian Scalabrine (lol JK)

For context, here is the Real GM Top 25 Player Poll 2020-2021 from the beginning of the season:

1)LeBron James (LAL) - 53%
2)Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 47%
3)Luka Doncic (DAL) - 37%
4)Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 34%
5)Anthony Davis (LAL) - 35%
6)James Harden (HOU) - 39%
7)Steph Curry (GSW) - 33%
8)Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 42%
9)Kevin Durant (BKN) - 46%
10)Damian Lillard (POR) - 38%
11)Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 57%
12)Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 41%
13)Joel Embiid (PHI) - 59%
14)Devin Booker (PHX) - 22%
15)Chris Paul (PHX) - 24%
16)Paul George (LAC) - 21%
17)Bradley Beal (WAS) - 22%
18)Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 22%
19)Ben Simmons (PHI) - 26%
20)Kyle Lowry (TOR) - 28%
21)Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 26%
22)Bam Adebayo (MIA) - 24%
23)Jamal Murray (DEN) - 29%
24)Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 32%
25) Kyrie Irving - 33%