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2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez

Do you truly expect the Suns to win the finals this year?

Yes
18
55%
No
15
45%
 
Total votes: 33

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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#61 » by Ghost of Kleine » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:30 pm

bwgood77 wrote:As I mentioned in the game thread, Sam Vecenie wrote a solid piece in The Athletic about the Ayton decision, so ignore if you are tired of reading/thinking/discussing this, but I imagine some might want to read and find what he has to say interesting. Beware though, it's lengthy, even longer than most of GoK's posts.

I tried to bold and slightly enlarge some of the items that haven't been talked about...I mentioned a few items briefly in maybe the game thread or a post or two yesterday after reading it, but many may have not seen.
Spoiler:
[spoiler]
By Sam Vecenie Oct 19, 2021
The decision not to sign Deandre Ayton to a max rookie extension baffles me, and it baffles me for reasons that have very little to do with the perception of Suns owner Robert Sarver being “cheap.” Let me explain.

The way the Phoenix Suns have gone about building their contender over the last few years is something of a model for other organizations. They drafted well, hitting on high picks in Devin Booker, Ayton, Cam Johnson and Mikal Bridges. Then, when they thought that group was ready to take the next step, they took advantage of their open cap sheet and acquired Chris Paul.

It’s exactly how rebuilding teams should do it once they find a star in the draft like Booker. Rack up a couple of valuable picks while waiting for that star to mature, hit on those draft picks, then transition into trying to compete by making smart moves for veterans who help you take the leap.

Now, the Suns took the leap into legitimate title contention much faster than anyone could have anticipated by making the NBA Finals last year, a real testament to the moves made by general manager James Jones that have made them difficult to guard on offense while also being a tough defensive team.

Having said all of that, the next step after you reach that contention window is being willing to pay your stars. The Suns did that by giving Paul a creative four-year, $120 million deal with outs essentially after a Year 3 partial guarantee and a total out after Year 4 if his age ever catches up with him. They’ve already given Booker a max deal, and they decided to sign Bridges to a four-year, $90 million extension that I loved and wrote about.

But in the case of Ayton, the team’s No. 1 overall pick back in 2018, the Suns seem to have drawn their line — at least for now.

The team did not agree to a contract extension with Ayton before the Monday deadline. Ayton and his camp firmly believed he was a max player following the start to his career, where he has averaged 16 points and 10.6 rebounds while emerging as a defensive building block on the interior who also can stay on the court in crunch time in playoff games. He was an essential cog in Phoenix’s run toward the NBA Finals last year as a 22-year-old, seeing absolutely no dropoff in terms of production. So why didn’t Phoenix agree?

The aforementioned Jones, who has done a terrific job over the last 12 months in cultivating a legitimate contender after years of losing in Phoenix, gave his answers to our own Sam Amick, and it’s worth reading those to understand the team’s thought process. It seems there was a legitimate breakdown in communication. And of course, it’s important to note the team doesn’t lose Ayton’s rights. He’ll still be a restricted free agent in the summer, and the Suns will be able to match any deal he gets on the open market. They also can offer him a five-year max then. Ayton’s time with the Suns isn’t over by any stretch, and it’s possible this ends up being an academic exercise.

But to say the Suns’ decision was met with confusion from other teams was a bit of an understatement. Just to make sure I wasn’t taking crazy pills about his value, I reached out to high-ranking representatives for three other organizations to get a feel for Ayton’s perceived value league-wide.

All three said they would have been comfortable giving Ayton the five-year max, especially if they were in Phoenix’s position. They wouldn’t have loved doing it, but they would have done it in the end. Two said they would have probably tried to hold firm on a team option in the fifth year in order to get some security in case he does end up settling more in the Clint Capela or Myles Turner mold long-term as a productive but just-below-elite defensive center — great players, maybe All-Stars in a weird year, but not quite consistent stars. However, all evaluators agreed Ayton possesses upside beyond that duo, and a max deal was in order given his productivity, youth, upside, pedigree and contributions he made to a winning team last year.


The Suns, though, just didn’t feel that way, clearly. Regardless of what Jones said, I think it just comes down to the simple fact that the Suns don’t think Ayton has proven himself as a max player yet, despite his representation pricing him as such. Occam’s Razor states that the simpler theories are more likely to be correct than complicated ones, and that’s really the simplest explanation here. If they felt he was a max guy, they would have given him the max and it wouldn’t have come to this. They want to see him prove what he did in the second half of the regular season and in the playoffs for one more season.

Honestly, the idea that Ayton isn’t “worth” a max deal yet is an argument that holds water right now, especially in the current ecosystem the NBA finds itself in with big men. I’ve been as outspoken as anyone evaluating in the public sphere when it comes to not wanting to pay non-All-Star big men. Ayton, at this point, hasn’t reached the level of All-Star. In a vacuum, I understand the hesitation.

Unfortunately for Phoenix, I don’t think that is the reality of the situation it finds itself in or an accurate read of the marketplace. The Suns are trying to win a championship this year and should be maximizing all avenues toward doing so. The team has now created a situation that will hang over it all year, as Ayton just became the first No. 1 overall pick to not receive a contract extension since Anthony Bennett, despite having proven more in the playoffs than any of the others that were selected between the two of them.

Additionally, I don’t buy the argument that the team gets an added benefit by not extending Ayton. The Suns are absolutely an over-the-cap team in the summer of 2022 with or without Ayton’s cap hold after signing Bridges and Landry Shamet to extensions. Speaking of Shamet, it’s also hard for me to get past the idea of Phoenix driving a hard bargain when it comes to Ayton but then deciding to extend Shamet on a multi-year deal at around $10 million per year. The last time we saw Shamet, he was a defensive liability when he was on the court for the Nets against the Milwaukee Bucks in the playoffs. There is a real chance he can’t stay on the floor in lineups with Payne off the bench in critical moments. I’m not totally convinced he’s a considerably better option than someone like Bryn Forbes, who has signed deals for $2.3 million and $4.5 million each of the last two years. The team likely felt like it became pot-committed when it traded a first-round pick for Shamet over the summer, but I can’t help but wonder if this is compounding one mistake with another.

Theoretically, waiting on Ayton does afford them the flexibility in trades of not already having two designated rookie extension players on the books — something Amick’s story alluded to — but that is such a small, marginal value add. Those players get traded so rarely, and there aren’t enough of them out there. By the time franchise players like Trae Young, Luka Doncic, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Jayson Tatum, Donovan Mitchell, De’Aaron Fox and Bam Adebayo have potential to come available (in three years), Booker will already be off his designated extension, meaning the team would have its extra spot for a designated player back.

Really, there are only four players out there where that argument holds any water because 2017 and 2018 didn’t feature many extensions: Ben Simmons, Karl-Anthony Towns, Michael Porter Jr. and Jamal Murray. Murray is out with a torn ACL right now and doesn’t look like he’s leaving Denver any time soon. Porter just signed his extension, but it seems like a real risk to withhold an Ayton deal because maybe you want to acquire Porter when he’s not currently available and Denver has tended to retain its talent. Simmons hasn’t proven himself in the playoffs, and the cost to acquiring him is pretty prohibitive given that fact, so I wouldn’t be interested in messing up the chemistry of this team with him if I was Jones. Towns is intriguing. He and Booker are known to be close. But here’s the thing: In a Towns trade, you’re going to have to send back Ayton (or route him to a third team) anyway. If the idea that an Ayton trade limits your trade flexibility was a part of the rationale, it’s overthinking the entire exercise by a substantial margin.


I also don’t love the position Phoenix finds itself in with regard to the free-agency market. Simply put, while value does matter in regard to a player’s salary, you’re “worth” whatever a team is willing to pay. Ayton is now arguably the most attractive free agent on the marketplace next year outside of Zach LaVine. And he’ll be entering a market where plenty of teams out there have enough money to pay him that also need a center.

Detroit would love to find a long-term answer next to Cade Cunningham, will have max cap space and likely wouldn’t be scared off by multi-big lineups involving both Ayton and Isaiah Stewart. San Antonio has a need at the center position and can very easily create max cap space. Ayton would figure to be one of the few free agents of interest to Oklahoma City because he’s one of the few stars who could fit the Thunder’s long-term timeline, and they can easily create the space. And this is before we get into teams being able to create max cap space out of thin air, as we saw this past summer with sign-and-trade deals.


Cap space is now a fungible commodity league-wide, with a lot of creative executives capable of maneuvering clever moves. Charlotte particularly stands out as a team that could maneuver itself into max cap space to pair Ayton with an elite pick-and-roll guard in LaMelo Ball. In Ayton’s case, every NBA executive I spoke with noted that they felt he would get a max deal on the open market this coming summer barring a large collapse in his level of play.

Ultimately, I think playing this game of chicken with Ayton is a bit of an error in judgment. The advantage the team has in extension talks is that it’s guaranteeing security to a player that hasn’t received an exorbitant amount of money yet, and they’re doing it a year ahead of time without any other competition on the marketplace. Phoenix had the ability to guarantee itself a contract that worked on its terms, as opposed to now putting itself at risk for Ayton to sign a deal that is more on his terms. Teams looking to sign Ayton this summer will be able to throw every poison pill in the book at him to make it less attractive for Phoenix to match. They can give him 50 percent of his salary upfront at the start of each league year. They can throw in a max trade kicker. They can put in a player option after the third year, allowing him to hit free agency sooner. All of this is similar to the framework of what happened with the end of Gordon Hayward’s tenure in Utah back in 2014. Utah matched that deal, but he ended up leaving after three more years.

“Speaking in theory without knowing his or his representation’s thinking, it’s a lot easier to turn down a five-year, $170-plus million offer if such an offer comes from Phoenix this summer when you have a four-year deal on the table that guarantees you $130 million and has a player option that puts you in position to opt out after three, which is potentially when Ayton would be able to really cash in on a new league-wide television deal,” one NBA executive who specializes in the salary cap told The Athletic.

Indeed, the specter of the NBA’s next television contract hangs over all of the extensions that were or weren’t agreed to this week. And frankly, this is where we start to get a bit speculative, but a deal is coming and it’s going to affect the league.

The NBA is slated to start negotiating a new television rights agreement at some point in the not-so-distant future, where its asking price is reported to be something in the ballpark of $75 billion, according to CNBC. The league’s current arrangement with WarnerMedia and Disney expires in 2024-25, which means a new deal would kick in for the 2025-26 season. How does that affect Ayton and other players looking to maximize their earnings? It means we could be in for a real salary-cap spike in the 2025-26 offseason. Even if the league and players’ association agrees to cap smoothing measures that they didn’t agree to following the most recent TV deal back in 2016, it’s very possible we could be looking at an enormous salary cap jump. And if you think teams aren’t already accounting for this in decision-making, you’re dead wrong.

That means an Ayton max signed today by Phoenix wouldn’t have necessarily looked like a typical max in 2025-26. The 2025-26 season is when Ayton would have been starting the fourth year of a five-year max contract. So while a max signed by Ayton would have amounted to 25 percent of the salary cap next year, it might have looked more like 20 to 22 percent range for his fourth year of the deal in 2025-26 despite his salary rising in the preceding years. Such a situation gave Phoenix a real incentive to try to get a maximum deal done now for five years. The team would have wrung real value out of his deal in the first three years, given that this is when they are likely to be competing with Paul at the helm next to Booker. Then, they would have gotten a potential bargain in terms of salary if the cap hits the levels prognosticators league-wide think it could.


Again, it’s worth noting that a max five-year, approximately $172 million deal will still be on the table for the Suns to offer this summer. But they have opened themselves up to Ayton potentially signing an offer sheet from someone else through market competition. And it’s worth explaining how the numbers might result in him actually declining such a max offer from Phoenix and instead forcing them to match an offer from a different team.

If Ayton does sign a four-year offer sheet with a player option for the 2025-26 season (thus giving him the option of hitting free agency in the summer of 2025), he has a chance to double-dip value-wise in contractually advantageous ways. He’ll be eligible for a maximum deal that allows his contract to start at 30 percent of the cap by nature of having seven years of experience in the NBA (as opposed to the 25 percent of the cap that his contract can start at now because he has under seven years experience). On top of that, if the TV money kicks in, we could be talking about Ayton being eligible to sign a contract for 30 percent of a salary cap that is in the $160 million range. That would be a deal starting at around $48 million. And by the way, if a $160 million salary cap sounds exorbitant to you, it might actually be a conservative estimate given that Forbes recently projected a potential $171 million salary cap for the 2025-26 season.

This is why the idea of a shorter-term max for Ayton doesn’t really make sense in a vacuum, if that’s what Phoenix really wanted to negotiate on. The value of signing Ayton to a max contract now came with the potential savings the Suns would be experiencing in 2025-26 and 2026-27 if they want to retain Ayton long-term. If Ayton continues to grow in the way that he did last season, taking another step forward, a max now could have looked like a bargain in the future.

It could, frankly, end up as something of a critical error in their long-term build, just because they wanted to save a bit of money now that doesn’t actually affect their short- or long-term flexibility as they build out their roster.


Great read!
Points out alot of things that you have already mentioned as well. :wink:
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#62 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:47 pm

GoranTragic wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I really wished Jones/Suns had the gall to just come out and say we want to see Ayton do it consistently for longer and it's in the bag. I didn't like that Jones floated the whole it could hinder a future trade (for another elite designated max guy lol) idea or that comment about offering a 3-4 year deal when it's clear and reasonable for Ayton to ask for the 5yr designated max (and negotiate down).

I felt that trade limitation excuse was a poor one the first I heard it. And I didn't even really look at who those trade candidates are until I just saw the Vecenie article and it just makes it even more ridiculous. Ultimately, Ayton hasn't lost a dime yet but it feels like we botched this one and I hope it doesn't lead to any negative vibes. I've said before I don't think Ayton is that type of guy to act out but over an 82 game season, over a (hopefully) long playoff run, tensions heat up and Ayton might feel a different kind of way about how he's been treated, utilised or spoken to. I dunno, I just think we've unnecessarily increased the risk of potential chemistry issue for nothing. I'd give up trade potential for a max guy for good chemistry any day. You never know if that trade will ever be there but you know you need good chemistry if you want to go far.


If Jones says he is keeping our existing contracts flexible for a future star then I would say he is doing his job. There is ZERO reason that Ayton should feel hurt or offended. This team made the NBA Finals last season and was a few plays from becoming champions.

Jones never said that Ayton wasn't part of this young core. He basically implied that Duffy told the front office that they were seeking a 5 year max. Jones read the room and didn't offend Ayton with a contract that was below their expectations.

There was no negotiation because Duffy/Ayton only wanted a max. Therefore Jones pivoted to Bridges and Shamet.

This is a BS excuse. It's like saying, oh we can't give you the designated max because who knows maybe Jalen Smith could be a designated max guy later down the road so we want to keep flexibility to potentially give it to him oneday. Yeah technically it's true but it's also a complete cop out. Do you think the Nuggets were thinking later down the track they might bring someone else in who's a designated max guy when they looked at MPJ? No, they looked at who they've invested in (draft pick, time, development), they asked is this guy part of my core and should we pay him? He's their guy and they paid him because they believe in him. They aren't thinking they are going to trade for a Tatum or a Trae down the road because these guys rarely if ever get traded and you certainly don't bank on these guys being moved.

All Jones/Sarver/Suns needed to do was tell the truth and say we want more consistency rather than throw out stupid excuses. That is a perfectly fine and fair position to have. FWIW the reporting suggested neither sides negotiated in good faith since no offer was ever made for Ayton to consider either. And while you might think the designated max for Ayton is ridiculous, I think the same could be said for a 3 year deal when all his peers at or beneath his level are getting the full max.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#63 » by WeekapaugGroove » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:52 pm

bigfoot wrote:What's interesting is some folks in the Arizona Sports media already pointed out how Ayton disappeared in the second half of the Nuggets game. DA must have multiple personality disorder as he's either Dominayton or Sheandre. I will say 15 pts and 6 rbs isn't that impressive for someone wanting a max contract. Booker was just as bad.
He runs hot and cold. That's just clear at this point. Heck theres two ways to look at his playoff performance, yes it's great he elevated his game but it also is fair to ask why he doesn't consistently play like that.

Now I should note because he can't really create for himself and the suns have two ball dominat Gs some of it like scoring is out of his control. Now that too poses the question of paying a max to someone who doesn't create his own shot.... but that was a better question for them to have figured out before they used the #1 overall pick on him.



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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#64 » by bigfoot » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:34 am

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bigfoot wrote:What's interesting is some folks in the Arizona Sports media already pointed out how Ayton disappeared in the second half of the Nuggets game. DA must have multiple personality disorder as he's either Dominayton or Sheandre. I will say 15 pts and 6 rbs isn't that impressive for someone wanting a max contract. Booker was just as bad.
He runs hot and cold. That's just clear at this point. Heck theres two ways to look at his playoff performance, yes it's great he elevated his game but it also is fair to ask why he doesn't consistently play like that.

Now I should note because he can't really create for himself and the suns have two ball dominat Gs some of it like scoring is out of his control. Now that too poses the question of paying a max to someone who doesn't create his own shot.... but that was a better question for them to have figured out before they used the #1 overall pick on him.



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Really could care less about points. Again it's rebounding and defense. Six rebounds for a center who wants a 5-year max is pretty fing sad.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#65 » by lilfishi22 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:45 am

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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#66 » by Ghost of Kleine » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:46 am

Kellan Olson (@KellanOlson) Tweeted:
Only addition to the Suns' injury report for tomorrow against the Lakers is Landry Shamet, who is probable with right foot soreness.

Still no Trevor Ariza, Wayne Ellington, Talen Horton-Tucker or Kendrick Nunn for LA.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#67 » by Ghost of Kleine » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:03 am

Jackson Frank (@jackfrank_jjf) Tweeted:
This is a fun development for Deandre Ayton https://t.co/2zzzcwRCGe
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#68 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:08 am

lilfishi22 wrote:I really wished Jones/Suns had the gall to just come out and say we want to see Ayton do it consistently for longer and it's in the bag. I didn't like that Jones floated the whole it could hinder a future trade (for another elite designated max guy lol) idea or that comment about offering a 3-4 year deal when it's clear and reasonable for Ayton to ask for the 5yr designated max (and negotiate down).

I felt that trade limitation excuse was a poor one the first I heard it. And I didn't even really look at who those trade candidates are until I just saw the Vecenie article and it just makes it even more ridiculous. Ultimately, Ayton hasn't lost a dime yet but it feels like we botched this one and I hope it doesn't lead to any negative vibes. I've said before I don't think Ayton is that type of guy to act out but over an 82 game season, over a (hopefully) long playoff run, tensions heat up and Ayton might feel a different kind of way about how he's been treated, utilised or spoken to. I dunno, I just think we've unnecessarily increased the risk of potential chemistry issue for nothing. I'd give up trade potential for a max guy for good chemistry any day. You never know if that trade will ever be there but you know you need good chemistry if you want to go far.


You know, the more I thought about it, actually thinking of a situation with an employee at my workplace, if you even put a seed of doubt in someone's mind, it's going to be there...even if you focus on what you can control, you will have this part in the back of your mind saying "Do they really value me here?" and you might not think about it much and just work because you like the people, workplace, etc. But what if another employer rings you up and says "Hey, we think you'd be PERFECT here and we will pay you a lot more and give you some options that might make it more appealing for you to work for." Based on the people with projected cap space, this will potentially be people like Buford/Pop, Presti, the Hornets to play with LaMelo, Detroit and I wouldn't be surprised if Dallas tried to figure something out given Luka is Duffy's agent too and they have a good relationship. I know we always had a good relationship with Duffy given he was Nash's agent and we accomated him and kind of accomodated Dragic getting him to Miami (though McD upset him) but not sure how this went over. It is interesting thinking about Duffy and how he could look at it. He has Luka and could point to the money he got him. Though he also lists a big achievement on his site getting Vucevic $100 million over 4 years. He has Myles Turner too and got him 4/$70 with $10 million in incentives ($2 million a year if makes all defensive team).

Now he doesn't have nearly the offensive game as Vucevic, and Vucevic gets slightly more rebounds, but he beats him in defense, and is much better at the same age. As for Turner, Turner can shoot 3s but doesn't do much else on offense and isn't the greatest rebounder. Many would say he's a better defender than Ayton though. He's definitely a better shot blocker.

Anyway, he should get paid more than those guys. It will just be interesting if other teams are willing to give him the max, feel really valued, etc, you wonder if he'd consider even if we said we'd give him the max. We'd pretty much have to do it to match the salary in year 1 and then our raises would be slightly more...and we could go a year longer.

But hopefully he just continues to love it in Phx, the teammates all get along well, him and Monty continue to have a great relationship, etc...and we advance in the playoffs...it may just be too much to leave for the unknown.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#69 » by darealjuice » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:11 am

Really enjoy watching Bam Adebayo play. Such a great mix of size, physicality, skill, and energy.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#70 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:21 am

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bigfoot wrote:What's interesting is some folks in the Arizona Sports media already pointed out how Ayton disappeared in the second half of the Nuggets game. DA must have multiple personality disorder as he's either Dominayton or Sheandre. I will say 15 pts and 6 rbs isn't that impressive for someone wanting a max contract. Booker was just as bad.
He runs hot and cold. That's just clear at this point. Heck theres two ways to look at his playoff performance, yes it's great he elevated his game but it also is fair to ask why he doesn't consistently play like that.

Now I should note because he can't really create for himself and the suns have two ball dominat Gs some of it like scoring is out of his control. Now that too poses the question of paying a max to someone who doesn't create his own shot.... but that was a better question for them to have figured out before they used the #1 overall pick on him.

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He really doesn't have much opportunity to create his own shot, but you've seen it when he gets the ball and has a little space. I've seen him drive all the way from the free throw line to the basket, seen him create his own hook shot, fadeaway, spin and fade away.

But you won't see much of it with ball dominant guards and the majority of the plays for him are just pick and rolls...where typically our guards would rather shoot than pass anyway.

I don't know how much shot creation a guy like Nurkic has...one who also plays with guards, or you could go down a list.

The main ones you think of is where the offense kind of runs through them...Towns, Embiid, Jokic, Bam, Sabonis.

Once Paul is gone, if Ayton is still around, Booker will learn or hopefully will learn that the more he gets it to Ayton to score, the better chance we have of winning.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#71 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:34 am

darealjuice wrote:Really enjoy watching Bam Adebayo play. Such a great mix of size, physicality, skill, and energy.


What great competitive games there are on tonight. Bucks are shooting even worse than we did. By quite a bit, right after crushing the Nets. I noticed Lowry isn't hitting anything. Does he look washed? Or still solid on D just missing his shots?

Hopefully the later game is better than these first two.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#72 » by Frank Lee » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:36 am

My gawd

Some of you are hook lined and sinkered with this OMG Ayton moment. If he is so weak minded to be effected by the realization he wasn’t viewed as a shoo in max, then we are in trouble. let him just play for his deal.

I’d say in about 15 games y’all will likely remember.

5 is the O/U on how many of them he’ll look somewhat close to a max player. He’s trying to cash in like Frank. 11 good minutes and he got his deal… DA has 11 good games and wants the max.

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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#73 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:48 am

Frank Lee wrote:My gawd

Some of you are hook lined and sinkered with this OMG Ayton moment. If he is so weak minded to be effected by the realization he wasn’t viewed as a shoo in max, then we are in trouble. let him just play for his deal.

I’d say in about 15 games y’all will likely remember.

5 is the O/U on how many of them he’ll look somewhat close to a max player. He’s trying to cash in like Frank. 11 good minutes and he got his deal… DA has 11 good games and wants the max.

Gotta Bring it every night


Frank, I think people know he is not worth it based on current play. The point of the whole thing is will you lose him for nothing. If it's a sure thing other teams will offer the max we risk losing him for nothing or paying him. You can always trade later if he doesn't play well.

You could trade him this year but it would seem a bit stupid to be one of those teams that broke up a finals team and try to live or die by the 3.

Paying him is for the future, the upside, the work ethic he's shown with his massive defensive improvement, etc. This year he is making $12 million. Right now he is a great value.

I'd rather not pay him the max, but I imagine we will have to regardless of what we think or how much some people whine about his #s after every game they are not great.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#74 » by darealjuice » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:02 am

bwgood77 wrote:
darealjuice wrote:Really enjoy watching Bam Adebayo play. Such a great mix of size, physicality, skill, and energy.


What great competitive games there are on tonight. Bucks are shooting even worse than we did. By quite a bit, right after crushing the Nets. I noticed Lowry isn't hitting anything. Does he look washed? Or still solid on D just missing his shots?

Hopefully the later game is better than these first two.


Yeah I expected them to be good games too. Hawks look for real, they're a very strong and deep team even without Gallo and Okungwu playing tonight. Heat defense has been suffocating, and they don't get physically dominated in the paint like the Nets do. Holiday and Lopez are also out though.

Lowry's been fine. Turned his ankle early in the game and came back. Not shooting great, but doing everything else well.

Yeah I hope tonight is better too.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#75 » by Slim Charless » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:11 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
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6'6 250lbs....big boy


Wish we could've gotten the OTHER 6'6 guy that's way overweight lol
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#76 » by Slim Charless » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:16 am

darealjuice wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
darealjuice wrote:Really enjoy watching Bam Adebayo play. Such a great mix of size, physicality, skill, and energy.


What great competitive games there are on tonight. Bucks are shooting even worse than we did. By quite a bit, right after crushing the Nets. I noticed Lowry isn't hitting anything. Does he look washed? Or still solid on D just missing his shots?

Hopefully the later game is better than these first two.


Yeah I expected them to be good games too. Hawks look for real, they're a very strong and deep team even without Gallo and Okungwu playing tonight. Heat defense has been suffocating, and they don't get physically dominated in the paint like the Nets do. Holiday and Lopez are also out though.

Lowry's been fine. Turned his ankle early in the game and came back. Not shooting great, but doing everything else well.

Yeah I hope tonight is better too.


The Jason Kidd experience is going about how I figured it would in Dallas.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#77 » by Ghost of Kleine » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:24 am

Phoenix Suns (@Suns) Tweeted:
First road trip of the season

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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#78 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:37 am

Steph Curry. Now that's what a true star guard looks like. Man he's just unbelievable.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#79 » by Ghost of Kleine » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:55 am

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10015515-nba-exec-suns-robert-sarver-is-cheap-for-not-offering-deandre-ayton-max-contract.amp.html

Consensus around the league? The whole Ayton thing can't help the narrative much either I'd wager??

NBA Exec: Suns' Robert Sarver Is 'Cheap' for Not Offering Deandre Ayton Max Contract

ADAM WELLS
OCTOBER 20, 2021

The Phoenix Suns' decision not to offer Deandre Ayton a max contract has caught the attention of people around the NBA.

On the latest episode of the HoopsHype Podcast, Michael Scotto noted one league executive called Suns owner Robert Sarver "cheap" for not giving Ayton the offer he wanted. 

Per ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski and Brian Windhorst, Ayton's camp "held firm" on wanting a five-year extension worth $172.5 million plus escalators. 

Wojnarowski and Windhorst noted talks between Ayton and the Suns "never progressed" to the point that a max offer was made. 

Since purchasing the Suns in 2004, Sarver has made a number of decisions that have drawn the ire of fans and raised questions in the media. In 2019, ESPN's Kevin Arnovitz noted Sarver leads the organization with "a heavy hand and heated emotions."

Arnovitz cited instances of Sarver yelling at players in the locker room during games, "baiting opponents from his courtside seat, and even heckling Suns players or roaring to the bench to yank someone from the game."

The Suns' decision to trade T.J. Warren to the Indiana Pacers for cash considerations in June 2019 led to many jokes on social media after Warren dropped 53 points in an August 2020 game against the Philadelphia 76ers. 

Coming off an appearance in the NBA Finals, Sarver did open up his wallet to keep the Suns' core intact. Chris Paul signed a four-year extension worth up to $120 million. Cameron Payne signed a three-year deal at the start of free agency. Mikal Bridges agreed to a four-year, $90 million extension on Sunday, per Wojnarowski.

Ayton's contract will hover over Phoenix for the entire 2021-22 season. He's set to earn $12.6 million in the final year of his rookie deal. 

One potential solution is the Suns extend the 23-year-old a qualifying offer next summer, making him a restricted free agent. Opposing teams will be allowed to sign him to an offer sheet that Phoenix would have the right to match. 

Ayton was instrumental in the team's run to the Finals last season. He averaged 15.8 points and 11.8 rebounds per game in 22 postseason starts.


Nothing we don't already know about Saver and everyone's perception of him. It just sucks that the past mistakes will be brought up again now by the media as a result of the recent Ayton situation. Hopefully we can be really successful and also take care of Ayton respectfully! So that these poor optics die down enough for us to be considered a desirable destination ( in spite of Savers' reputation) for free agents. :pray:
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#80 » by Ghost of Kleine » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:00 am

Evan Sidery (@esidery) Tweeted:
Thaddeus Young was also a DNP-CD last night for San Antonio. Very interesting thought here.
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