Hoopshype's "20 Greatest PFs ever" list

[Triple M]

I have no problem with Duncan at PF. He was already arguably the greatest PF when he was still a PF in the mid 00s

[worldjbfree]

Without getting into the rankings, which would be a whole other thing, this is a fine list. The only thing I'll say ranking-wise is that AD seems very high for a guy that co-authored a single championship with LeBron at this time.

In terms of personnel, I'd remove Aldridge and (as much as I love him) Sheed for Bosh and Amare. Also think that Kemp should get some love over at least Aldridge.

I'd also like to give love to Gallatin and McAdoo, but aware I might be in the minority of believing them to be mostly PFs.

It was also just today I realized Chris Webber was not in the NBA Top 75 list. Feels like a huge snub there.

[Snakebites]

I feel like Shawn Kemp belongs somewhere in the latter part of the list. Not sure that’s a hill I’d die on though.

[OkcSinceSGA]

[

It depends. Sure, longevity and winning rings matters a ton. But as mentioned one of those guys here was a 14/9 guy at his peak. Then much worse other years. How the hell is that fair? Someone like Draymond has meh stats, but is a winner and has rings. So I can accept that. But many of the guys in last 5-7 names of list don’t have the resume of Draymond for example.

Maybe you aren't familiar with some of those players? Bobby Jones was an elite defending forward. As was Dave D. All-D a bunch of times and deservedly so. Sheed was a terrific defensive player as well. Just looking at their stats and concluding they aren't very good is missing a lot of their value.

Blake Griffin is an All NBA team player his entire prime.... sure he wasn’t a lockdown defender. He was a 20/10/4+ guy consistently. Sheed is historically good on defense. I’m not disputing him either.

[OkcSinceSGA]

It depends. Sure, longevity and winning rings matters a ton. But as mentioned one of those guys here was a 14/9 guy at his peak. Then much worse other years. How the hell is that fair? Someone like Draymond has meh stats, but is a winner and has rings. So I can accept that. But many of the guys in last 5-7 names of list don’t have the resume of Draymond for example.

Look, an all-time great player, for me, is easy to identify:

1. Awesome peak/prime or both
2. Very good longevity
3. Heavy impact on winning (= great supporting player, great defensive player, etc)
4. A combination of the 3 above, or all of them.

Take Bobby Jones' case:

- Played 12 seasons
- Was 1st team all-defense in his first 10 years (how amazing is that? if I'm not mistaken the only player in NBA's history to achieve that)
- Then dropped a bit, was 2nd team all-defense in his 11th season
- Part of the great 1983 Sixers team, who were champions and steamrolled everyone, while also being contenders on other seasons

Though not quite there, Draymond seems like he's on a similar (though not quite impressive) path, right?

Griffin has only the 1st factor I mentioned above. Do we agree on this instance, right?

So, when you compare things from this point of view, the other players in the aforementioned list fare better than him.

And that's not a negative on Griffin... if the list were, let's say, a top 30 instead of a top 20, he would probably be there.

PS: I don't think Rasheed should be top 20, I'll give you that one.

You think Griffin didn’t have much impact LOL? He was a top 10 player in his prime a couple years (mvp level in 2 years), was all NBA what 5 years or more years? Literally the ONLY argument against Blake is rings and injuries robbing him of a longer prime. Without untimely injuries mid season he’s likely a 10x+ all star. Even then, he had a 9 year prime of being a 20/10/4 plus type player...

Statistically maybe only 5 other PF’s can top Griffin prime vs prime.

Barkley
Duncan
Dirk
KG
Malone

Outside of that he’s there with Webber for peak stats (with impact, not empty stats).

[maverick_41]

Why there is a new list every single week?..

[ZombieKilla]

Davis too high.
Green shouldn’t be on the list.
Gasol is a center but I guess they needed more Lakers and he certainly wouldn’t make the center list.

[leolozon]

It's always fascinating to me to see people put Malone that far above Barkley, clearly using longevity as the main argument, considering their prime was similar and Barkley played better in the playoffs. Yet, they discount longevity in the Lebron vs Jordan debate or to rank Bird and Magic.

Either longevity counts a lot or it doesn't.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

The defensive specialists need to gtfo with the exception of maaaaybe Rodman.

There is no gm ever who if given a choice as who to draft to start a team picks frigging dray, Jones, or Dave frigging debugger over guys like bosh, Blake, Kemp or even 100 other dominant offensive types.

Sure those guys had massive value to the loaded teams they played on but in different circumstances besides playing with other HOfeR'S nobody would even remember their names.

Also... Barkley higher and Garnett lower

[NZB2323]

It's always fascinating to me to see people put Malone that far above Barkley, clearly using longevity as the main argument, considering their prime was similar and Barkley played better in the playoffs. Yet, they discount longevity in the Lebron vs Jordan debate or to rank Bird and Magic.

Either longevity counts a lot or it doesn't.

Well, I can tell you that Bill Simmons in his Book of Basketball has Magic above Bird and Malone above Barkley because of longevity.

The Jordan thing is a little bit different, because Jordan made 10 all-NBA 1st teams and won 6 championships.
Barkley won no championships and only made 5 all-NBA 1st teams.

The difference of what Magic and Bird achieved after 86 was great; Magic won 2 championships, 1 Finals MVP, and 3 MVPS as he made it to the NBA Finals 5 more times. Bird only made it back to the Finals once.

Lebron had longevity but less championships and less MVPs than Jordan. I know you can say Lebron should have won in 2011, but Jordan should have won in 1997.

Malone wasn't the best playoff performer, but he made it to the Finals more times than Barkley did.

[NZB2323]

The defensive specialists need to gtfo with the exception of maaaaybe Rodman.

There is no gm ever who if given a choice as who to draft to start a team picks frigging dray, Jones, or Dave frigging debugger over guys like bosh Blake or even 100 other dominant offensive types.

Sure those guys had massive value to the loaded teams they played on but in different circumstances besides playing with other HOfeR'S nobody would even remember their names.

I think the GSW take Draymond Green over Blake Griffin. Bosh is a different story because he was a solid defensive player and could be a stretch 5 for the Warriors.

[adubmac]

Somebody call JJ Reddick since Love isnt on here

My top 5 personally:

1. Duncan
2. Dirk (for now)
3. Giannis (will pass Dirk with nothing other than longevity at this point)
4. KG
5. Malone

I'm not sure how KG could rank ahead of Malone when he couldn't even win a playoff series for most of his career. For all of Karl's shortcomings, his career crushes Garnett's.

Malone made the playoffs in all 19 of his season while KG only qualified 66% of the time. He has a 2-1 MVP lead and almost triple the first All-NBA selections, while averaging more points, rebounds, and steals in his career.

[Winsome Gerbil]

[
Sheed is historically good on defense.

Where does this idea come from? I mean, it's been repeated around so much that pretty everybody says it just because somebody else said it. But there is no evidence for that. He WAS a good defender, and a versatile one. But historic? Nowhere near. He never made an All-Defense team in his entire career. He was light in the loafers and couldn't rebound to save his life or guard wide bodies. He was mobile and long and gave you unusual shotblocking presence for a true PF, but there's not much evidence he was out of the range of guys like Larry Nance or Kenyon Martin or Horace Grant or Cliff Robinson or PJ Brown or Antonio Davis. A good defender, but not an all timer justifying his otherwise mysterious presence on such an august list.

[Sothron]

They have Pettit and McHale way too low. Dirk was nowhere near as good as them.

Dirk: 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 14x all-star, 4x all-NBA 1st team, 5x all-NBA 2nd team, 6th all time in points, 27th all time in rebounds.

McHale: 0 MVPs, 0 Finals MVPs, 7x all-star, 1x all-NBA 1st team, 0x all-NBA 2nd team, 93rd all time in points, 114th all time in rebounds.

Yes, McHale has more defensive teams and more championships, but Dirk never played with a player nearly as good as Larry Bird, or had a supporting cast as good as McHale and Bird had, and all the other categories mean more than defensive teams.

What selective stats you put up there. Allow me to educate you.

Kevin McHale 3 time World Champion, 6 time All Defense, 2 time Sixth Man of the year plus 7 time All Star and a member of the Top 50 AND Top 75 teams. He was the best low post player in the history of the NBA. The only reason his personal scoring and rebounds are lower is because he played with Bird and Parish in the greatest frontcourt in the HISTORY of the NBA. Dirk also played longer than McHale did so of course their career points and rebound totals aren't going to be close.

As individual players it isn't even close who was better. McHale was ten times better on defense than Dirk was. McHale was a thousand times better in the low post than Dirk. I love Dirk Diggler but he's not on Kevin McHale's level. He's also not on Pettit's level either.

[picc]

Love that Draymond is getting his due. And he's only going to climb higher on the list.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Love that Draymond is getting his due. And he's only going to climb higher on the list.

Sure, the guy with career averages of 8.8pts 6.9reb and 5.4ast is probably going to be knocking all timers out of his way all throughout his declining years.

[picc]

Love that Draymond is getting his due. And he's only going to climb higher on the list.

Sure, the guy with career averages of 8.8pts 6.9reb and 5.4ast is probably going to be knocking all timers out of his way all throughout his declining years.

That's correct.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

The defensive specialists need to gtfo with the exception of maaaaybe Rodman.

There is no gm ever who if given a choice as who to draft to start a team picks frigging dray, Jones, or Dave frigging debugger over guys like bosh Blake or even 100 other dominant offensive types.

Sure those guys had massive value to the loaded teams they played on but in different circumstances besides playing with other HOfeR'S nobody would even remember their names.

I think the GSW take Draymond Green over Blake Griffin. Bosh is a different story because he was a solid defensive player and could be a stretch 5 for the Warriors.

drays somewhere in the top 30-50 range if youre starting a team from scratch and get to pick any pf as your first pick

can we at least start with the notion that to be a top 20 alltimer you have to be a current max level player?

[Pelon chingon]

AD over Webber... I think not.

[Pennebaker]

The list is missing LeBron James who has been ranked by GMs as an elite PF for years. This year the GM's have Giannis and LeBron as the top 2 PFs in the league.

I would put LeBron 3rd or 4th.