Owly wrote:70sFan wrote:DWS reward players for their team success, so given that Celtics were by far the best team in NBA history it's quite clear why Celtics players have high numbers. DWS don't tell us anything about defensive impact though.
We actually have seen how good Celtics defense was without Russell:
1956 Celtics: +1.4 rDRtg
1957 Celtics: -4.9 rDRtg
1969 Celtics:-6.4 rDRtg
1970 Celtics: -0.1 rDRtg
Where were all of these amazing defenders before or after Russell's retirement?
Whilst I imagine Russell to be the most impactful defender ever, I would take issue with the bolded as being evidenced in any strong way by the data following.
56 to 57 involves significant other turnover. Macauley was a productive scorer but seems to have been a poor defender and he's dealt out. Heinsohn comes in. Ramsey arrives (see more on this later). Philip arrives too whilst other Celtics are shunted down the depth chart.
56-57 campaign includes relatively large chunk of the season sans Russell in which the Celtics do about/almost as well without him net (RS wise their points diff improves post Russell but not massively and fwiw win% slips slightly). Russell is fifth in total miuntes. Before that they're using either a reserve caliber player or someone out of position.
This relatively small improvement is despite adding Ramsey a little after adding Russell, I would think a clear upgrade to their rotation.
I would agree with this.
We have 24 games pre-Russell where the Celtics are the best team in the league and strong on both sides of the ball despite injuries.
They most notably added:
Tom Heinsohn -- Underrated defender, great rebounder, and good off-ball instincts. In
Tall Tales, it's mentioned how he was particularly skilled at poking the ball away from players off rebounds (which we can actually see on film now). George Yardley has also mentioned that Heinsohn was an underrated defender.
Andy Phillip -- Although older, was still a valuable piece off the bench. Phillip was once called the best defender in the entire league by former player George "The Human Handcuff" Senesky, coach of the '56 champion Warriors and known for his tenacious defense when he played.
After that, one can assume that Jim Loscutoff, now in his 2nd year, had improved and was used more for his defense by Auerbach.
Another point I want to make is that the newspapers from this season continually bring up how Auerbach's press defense is flourishing with the addition of Phillip and Heinsohn. With Heinsohn in place of Macauley, the Celtics were no longer as weak at rebounding (a massive flaw in their earlier teams, Cousy averaged more rebounds than Macauley in '56!) Auerbach then utilized smaller line-ups that were quick enough to put pressure on a team while pressing. Cousy-Sharman-Phillip-Loscutoff-Heinsohn brought a combination of versatility and stealing ability for the Celtics.
Cousy
Sharman
Phillip
Heinsohn
Loscutoff
Risen
These were all
really good players for their era. Players that were talented on offense while being good-to-elite on defense. Phillip was among the best players in the league during his prime, and Risen was a former NBA champion (and likely Finals MVP if the award was around). It makes sense that a team like this would be a contender in 1957.
70sFan wrote:The rest wasn't anything special though - Howell wasn't good defensively, Sam Jones was above average
Sam Jones was certainly average around '64 as he approached 30 years old. But I would say early Sam Jones was among the better defensive guards of the league. Jones was pretty quick when he was young and I've seen Auerbach mention that he separated himself from other shooters in the league with his defense. In Sam Jones' first few seasons, Cousy would also mention how nice it was to have Sam Jones come in for him and tire out the opposing guards by playing them hard on defense. On top of slowing down from age, I think with the increasing offensive load it makes sense that his defensive play would suffer.
70sFan wrote:...Cousy was mediocre
I don't believe Cousy was mediocre. No doubt he had less overall energy for defense with how he played, but I do believe he was a threat, for his stealing ability was feared among players. He was a good man/off-ball defender that had weaknesses in gambling too much and occasionally losing his man. Although the gambling would usually be worth it with his steal rates (especially with Russell behind him).
When Russell joined, Cousy could gamble like never before and the team wouldn't suffer as much for failed steal attempts. I think the Celtics were forcing a ridiculous amount of turnovers because of this--all of their guards could continuously gamble. But guards like KC and Cousy already had fantastic perception and timing to steal, this is part of the reason why their defense explodes as Russell joins.
We have quotes from Auerbach calling Cousy a good defender--not average or even above average. This is after lambasting him for his defensive play during his rookie season. Was Auerbach biased? Well, he put his money where his mouth was by allowing Cousy to defend Jerry West for stints of the '63 Finals. For Game 6, we have significant footage and West struggles when defended by Cousy in the 2nd half, going 1-6 with a turnover from a Cousy steal. I think, even at 34, he could still put in solid effort on defense. And it should speak volumes that Red Auerbach trusted Cousy at his age to defend one of the greatest scorers ever.
Prime Cousy? Two-way player. With all the research I've done, I can pretty confidently say prime Cousy was regularly leading the league in steals.
Would I call his defense elite? Maybe for a couple seasons, but he wasn't a lockdown defender like a Martin, Senesky or Seymour was--players who largely dedicated themselves to defense. He had the ability to play good man defense, but his vision and hands allowed him to be a stealing machine, this set him apart from his fellow guards. Cousy had to run the Celtics offense and draw pressure for players to get open--which meant less energy. This is something Slater Martin once discussed on the topic of Bob Cousy--that he could have been quite the defender but couldn't because of his role. Although there were certain instances where he knew a player like Zaslofsky needed to be hounded, and he did have successful games playing man defense on opposing guards, which drew praise from Auerbach. These things are part of the reason why the Celtics were already so good in '57 without Russell.
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