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Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1

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Who smokes the big cigar?

Tatum
40
40%
Brown
21
21%
KP
16
16%
White
0
No votes
Jrue
2
2%
Horford
5
5%
Hauser
0
No votes
Pritchard
0
No votes
Tillman
8
8%
Other/Coach/Team
7
7%
 
Total votes: 99

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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#61 » by Mr_Mojo_Risin » Sat Mar 2, 2024 11:03 am

JimmyFromNz wrote:
Mr_Mojo_Risin wrote:
JimmyFromNz wrote:
Sorry that's just not right.

He has the highest usage in the league or near and is about to break the nba record for most points produced for a team ever. Anyone that's played organized basketball to any respectable level knows how much of a toll that sort of offensive reliance takes on you.

It's not a choice, it's a necessity with that Dallas team, heliocentrism on offense is the only option they have whilst being completely inept defensively across the board besides their rookie starting centre - that should speak volumes to anyone looking at this objectively.

They have built around him, what else are we watching ? The fundamental issue is that they've built around him incredibly poorly and given up pretty much all future assets to bring guys like Kyrie and PJ washington in. That's not his fault, and it's not his fault the mavericks didn't pay Brunson the 65 million he asked for.

When they win yes it generally is all because of him, and when they lose its only by 10 rather than 30 yes its generally all because of him. He is 2nd in the league in EPM 5th in eRAPTOR that should obviously be the clear objective indicator of his impact, anything else is just baseless narrative, the same narrative we heard about Jokic until the supposed defensive criticism gave way to common sense.

I find this an incredibly odd conversation to arise out of a Celtics forum, when we are sitting in a position of an embarrassment of riches and talent (on both ends of the floor) and ironically should know better having (presumably) watched paul pierce struggle through the mid 2000s due to similar franchise ineptitude.

This league is more talented than ever, it's a good thing to be able to appreciate players on other teams. It should be the best of both worlds for us right now. But it does speak to Boston parochialism which is alive and well. I literally sat courtside at an OKC game last season to have a season ticket holder tell me that SGA is nothing more than an overrated borderline all star. Its nothing new, but it is a shame.

It’s not right in your opinion.

It’s a chicken and egg scenario, you need others around you to help but others of any quality won’t want to stay if you don’t share both the ball and the blame.

You’re welcome to disagree, but you’re wrong if you think I don’t appreciate Luka, he’s incredible to watch. I’m also happy Boston targets players who play both sides of the ball and are great team mates. Currently these are areas Luka has not demonstrated he is good at and therefore I’m fine appreciating watching him playing for a team other than Boston.


Well sorry to be clear it isn't really just my opinion, you're incorrect insinuating that players choose not to play with him when there's clear evidence to the contrary e.g. the Brunson situation (wanting to stay for less) and fundamental issues with asset management within the franchise. Pushing the idea he's not a good team mate is not founded on anything.

You only have to look at Jokics borderline tampering or Durants recent comments about Doncic as the most recent example. Its just narrative and unless anyone can speak in actual detail to it, I'll remain completely cynical of it.

I also love the fact we've been fortunate enough to attract 2 way talent, the difference is acknowledging how mutually beneficial that is for everyone on our team, and not projecting that on to players not fortunate enough to be in a similar position. Once he's surrounded with actual talent the story changes immediately, we see it over and over.

Because a player who was drafted by Dallas was trying to negotiate a contract to stay is not exactly evidence of players wanting to come and play with him.

Nor is Jokic being polite answering a question saying Luka is welcome to come and join him in Denver. That is Luka joining Jokic on his terms, not the other way around.

Luka is not a locker room cancer, but I’ve heard podcasts and players joke and insinuate about it not being easy. Regardless, that aside, I don’t rate players highly if they only play one side, even if they are amazing to watch offensively.
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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#62 » by Homerclease » Sat Mar 2, 2024 1:04 pm

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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#63 » by 31to6 » Sat Mar 2, 2024 1:30 pm

Voted team and Tillman, because those are the two entities I’m the most excited about.

Good win!
More, please:)
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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#64 » by Fencer reregistered » Sat Mar 2, 2024 2:22 pm

Mr_Mojo_Risin wrote:
JimmyFromNz wrote:
Mr_Mojo_Risin wrote:It’s not right in your opinion.

It’s a chicken and egg scenario, you need others around you to help but others of any quality won’t want to stay if you don’t share both the ball and the blame.

You’re welcome to disagree, but you’re wrong if you think I don’t appreciate Luka, he’s incredible to watch. I’m also happy Boston targets players who play both sides of the ball and are great team mates. Currently these are areas Luka has not demonstrated he is good at and therefore I’m fine appreciating watching him playing for a team other than Boston.


Well sorry to be clear it isn't really just my opinion, you're incorrect insinuating that players choose not to play with him when there's clear evidence to the contrary e.g. the Brunson situation (wanting to stay for less) and fundamental issues with asset management within the franchise. Pushing the idea he's not a good team mate is not founded on anything.

You only have to look at Jokics borderline tampering or Durants recent comments about Doncic as the most recent example. Its just narrative and unless anyone can speak in actual detail to it, I'll remain completely cynical of it.

I also love the fact we've been fortunate enough to attract 2 way talent, the difference is acknowledging how mutually beneficial that is for everyone on our team, and not projecting that on to players not fortunate enough to be in a similar position. Once he's surrounded with actual talent the story changes immediately, we see it over and over.

Because a player who was drafted by Dallas was trying to negotiate a contract to stay is not exactly evidence of players wanting to come and play with him.

Nor is Jokic being polite answering a question saying Luka is welcome to come and join him in Denver. That is Luka joining Jokic on his terms, not the other way around.

Luka is not a locker room cancer, but I’ve heard podcasts and players joke and insinuate about it not being easy. Regardless, that aside, I don’t rate players highly if they only play one side, even if they are amazing to watch offensively.


It seems that ball-dominant PGs are often not beloved by their teammates. We lived it with Rondo, of course. Lob City had huge problems with that, as have several Harden teams. Trae doesn't seem to be leading much in Atlanta. Curry is not ball-dominant in the same way as the others I named.

Hali is an apparent exception so far. I have no idea about the Ball brothers.
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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#65 » by tfmiii » Sat Mar 2, 2024 4:29 pm

I can't believe it, I am voting for Joe Mazz for the timeout/reset/adjustments in the third, he's growing before our eyes
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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#66 » by Half-Full » Sat Mar 2, 2024 5:19 pm

Gave my vote to Tatum. Always fun to watch Luka. Also, nice to see the reserves get some minutes. We saw a bit more of Tillman, and he did not disappoint. Hopefully we will see more of Springer soon. As I've said before, Payton is liberated when the Jays are not on the court, and he gets a chance to be more of a point guard. I'm not advocating to see less of the Jays, just enjoying watching Payton when he has a chance to run the show.
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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#67 » by tfmiii » Sun Mar 3, 2024 4:07 am

I know this is the guy's schtick, but what he says about the Mavs gave me flashbacks to our offense of prior years

https://youtu.be/DVmvt99dyEQ?si=jU6QPEwrTOXqehle
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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#68 » by Fierce1 » Sun Mar 3, 2024 4:36 am

tfmiii wrote:I know this is the guy's schtick, but what he says about the Mavs gave me flashbacks to our offense of prior years

https://youtu.be/DVmvt99dyEQ?si=jU6QPEwrTOXqehle

So true.

Luka and Kyrie iso ball all the time.

Celtic fans were not happy with the Jays iso ball all the time.

That's why it's not as simple as if Tatum was swapped for Luka last season, the Cs would have been better last season.

Absolutely not that simple.
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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#69 » by JimmyFromNz » Sun Mar 3, 2024 6:00 am

Stan34 wrote:
JimmyFromNz wrote:
Stan34 wrote:Oh man jaylen is the best midrange shooter in the entire nba this season. He was shooting 54% before this game.

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I guess you're referring to only within 16 ft? Which is he's excellent at - but not leading the league in.Regardless I'm not suggesting otherwise, yes he can be an excellent pull up mid range shooter in 1 - 1 coverage.

I am suggesting his shot selection can be dire at points in the game and act as momentum killers. I don't think that's highly contentious, and thought was on display today.
Yes he is. They told on TV and on some podcast few days ago. Listen to HOOPS TONIGHT, the Volume. Killer momentum cause he missed a pair of jump shots up 15?
Jaylen things are always good to point finger on

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Refer to the official statistics which are available to everyone, they will give you the correct answer, not a podcast.

Unsure if you're being deliberately obtuse or simply not understanding the point? It's possible to praise a player whilst acknowledging the areas of improvement, particularly ones that do not specifically leap out in basic statistics.

The efficiency has been good, but often the quality of shots Jaylen takes within the flow of the offense can definitely be improved as was the case last night. Again, it's really non contentious.
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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#70 » by Stan34 » Sun Mar 3, 2024 6:57 am

JimmyFromNz wrote:
Stan34 wrote:
JimmyFromNz wrote:
I guess you're referring to only within 16 ft? Which is he's excellent at - but not leading the league in.Regardless I'm not suggesting otherwise, yes he can be an excellent pull up mid range shooter in 1 - 1 coverage.

I am suggesting his shot selection can be dire at points in the game and act as momentum killers. I don't think that's highly contentious, and thought was on display today.
Yes he is. They told on TV and on some podcast few days ago. Listen to HOOPS TONIGHT, the Volume. Killer momentum cause he missed a pair of jump shots up 15?
Jaylen things are always good to point finger on

Inviato dal mio BAH2-W19 utilizzando Tapatalk



Refer to the official statistics which are available to everyone, they will give you the correct answer, not a podcast.

Unsure if you're being deliberately obtuse or simply not understanding the point? It's possible to praise a player whilst acknowledging the areas of improvement, particularly ones that do not specifically leap out in basic statistics.

The efficiency has been good, but often the quality of shots Jaylen takes within the flow of the offense can definitely be improved as was the case last night. Again, it's really non contentious.
He is shooting 50.1%. Imagine if he gets quality shots.

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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#71 » by exculpatory » Sun Mar 3, 2024 8:56 am

X
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Re: Top Gun Celts Shoot Down Mavericks! Victory Cigar vs DAL 3/1 

Post#72 » by shackles10 » Sun Mar 3, 2024 1:26 pm

JimmyFromNz wrote:
Mr_Mojo_Risin wrote:
JimmyFromNz wrote:
Sorry that's just not right.

He has the highest usage in the league or near and is about to break the nba record for most points produced for a team ever. Anyone that's played organized basketball to any respectable level knows how much of a toll that sort of offensive reliance takes on you.

It's not a choice, it's a necessity with that Dallas team, heliocentrism on offense is the only option they have whilst being completely inept defensively across the board besides their rookie starting centre - that should speak volumes to anyone looking at this objectively.

They have built around him, what else are we watching ? The fundamental issue is that they've built around him incredibly poorly and given up pretty much all future assets to bring guys like Kyrie and PJ washington in. That's not his fault, and it's not his fault the mavericks didn't pay Brunson the 65 million he asked for.

When they win yes it generally is all because of him, and when they lose its only by 10 rather than 30 yes its generally all because of him. He is 2nd in the league in EPM 5th in eRAPTOR that should obviously be the clear objective indicator of his impact, anything else is just baseless narrative, the same narrative we heard about Jokic until the supposed defensive criticism gave way to common sense.

I find this an incredibly odd conversation to arise out of a Celtics forum, when we are sitting in a position of an embarrassment of riches and talent (on both ends of the floor) and ironically should know better having (presumably) watched paul pierce struggle through the mid 2000s due to similar franchise ineptitude.

This league is more talented than ever, it's a good thing to be able to appreciate players on other teams. It should be the best of both worlds for us right now. But it does speak to Boston parochialism which is alive and well. I literally sat courtside at an OKC game last season to have a season ticket holder tell me that SGA is nothing more than an overrated borderline all star. Its nothing new, but it is a shame.

It’s not right in your opinion.

It’s a chicken and egg scenario, you need others around you to help but others of any quality won’t want to stay if you don’t share both the ball and the blame.

You’re welcome to disagree, but you’re wrong if you think I don’t appreciate Luka, he’s incredible to watch. I’m also happy Boston targets players who play both sides of the ball and are great team mates. Currently these are areas Luka has not demonstrated he is good at and therefore I’m fine appreciating watching him playing for a team other than Boston.


Well sorry to be clear it isn't really just my opinion, you're incorrect insinuating that players choose not to play with him when there's clear evidence to the contrary e.g. the Brunson situation (wanting to stay for less) and fundamental issues with asset management within the franchise. Pushing the idea he's not a good team mate is not founded on anything.

You only have to look at Jokics borderline tampering or Durants recent comments about Doncic as the most recent example. Its just narrative and unless anyone can speak in actual detail to it, I'll remain completely cynical of it.

I also love the fact we've been fortunate enough to attract 2 way talent, the difference is acknowledging how mutually beneficial that is for everyone on our team, and not projecting that on to players not fortunate enough to be in a similar position. Once he's surrounded with actual talent the story changes immediately, we see it over and over.


Brunson wanted to stay for less because of security and didn’t feel he was worth more. True, it’s not Luka’s fault they didn’t jump at that opportunity to sign him for half his eventual contract, or even the eventual deal he did sign. Brunson’s own words though were he had outgrown that offer and that only happened when he played without Luka, who was hurt. Would he have grown into that player of Luka didn’t get hurt? No clue, but fair to speculate. Would he have been happy staying there once he did grow and having to share the ball with Luka so much? No clue again, and that could be a criticism of Brunson needing the ball as much as Luka. We have seen several players grow into more prominent roles with Tatum though for what it’s worth (White as a prime example).

Like you, I agree it’s a weird convo to have when we’re playing so well, but I can at least understand where the convo comes from. Some fans are annoyed Luka is presumably a more likely MVP candidate than Tatum. The team record is one argument and the lack of 2-way play is the other. Having been in sales most of my adult life I prefer, and have always trained others, you win clients long-term by speaking to what makes you the better option and not by putting down your competition. I’m also not immune to the fact that this isn’t a long-term sale to win MVP for THIS season, so carry on Luka bashers I guess lol.

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