Quickly coming to conclusion that Thibs system absolutely needs an elite rim protector to be successful

[HEZI]

No. He’s good at help defense hence why he excels in switching.

Ok so once he makes the switch he still gets cooked just like the Bulls were doing to him last night, that’s not scheme that’s him. Especially in this modern NBA where offensive skill level is through the rough, Mikal not being able to play 1 on 1 defense is kind of a big deal. I though he was actually a good individual defender but he’s been atrocious

This is very fair, he’s not good against big & fast wings which was apparent last season as well. He has been living off of the reputation he had in Phoenix and it’s caused him to just coast. He’s also poor getting over the screens and getting around them. How do you fix it, effort and communication, all I can think of. Possibly Precious coming back could help as well.

I think he has it in him it’s probably more mental. It’s not like Brunson where there are physical limitations so I don’t even expect it from him but with Mikal he has the physical ability just needs to unlock the mental block, whatever that might be. If Andrew Wiggins could be unlocked to become a good individual defender then Mikal can too. Maybe that happens later in the season, hopefully it does because we do need him

[Tomato Sauce]

Problem is we have no offensive game plan.

The defense will come around cuz we missing 2 defensive bigs right now.

But wtf is our game plan on offense?

I’ll make it simple for you Thibs.

Give KAT the fkn ball.

[KnixinSix]

No. He’s good at help defense hence why he excels in switching.

Ok so once he makes the switch he still gets cooked just like the Bulls were doing to him last night, that’s not scheme that’s him. Especially in this modern NBA where offensive skill level is through the rough, Mikal not being able to play 1 on 1 defense is kind of a big deal. I though he was actually a good individual defender but he’s been atrocious

This is very fair, he’s not good against big & fast wings which was apparent last season as well. He has been living off of the reputation he had in Phoenix and it’s caused him to just coast. He’s also poor getting over the screens and getting around them. How do you fix it, effort and communication, all I can think of. Possibly Precious coming back could help as well.

I don't believe Bridges is a bad defender at all. Give it some more time.

[Worst_to_First]

First time I read the thread title I thought IQ was commenting about his old team.

[RHODEY]

Watch on YouTube

[KnixinSix]

I wonder how much Precious will help in this department in the short-term once he comes back.

[KnixinSix]

Just checked, Mitch had a negative net rating against the Celtics last year, -12.1.

He's not the fix against that team, adding another wing that can defend would help us more. You load up on wings to combat 5 out, we need one more.

That doesn't factor in OG really and Bridges for that matter. I am not insisting you are wrong per se but I want you to acknowledge that THibs system could still be at least more effective than you think (even vs Celts) when Mitch returns (roughly using the line up rotation I laid out in the above post)

What I'm saying is the Celtics have a tried and true formula for teams with bigs that can't score, it's the same one the Warriors used, and hoping that our version of it can beat that system isn't going to happen.


The problem right now, before the centers even come back is scheme. The Kings are 10th in the NBA in DRTG, how is that possible? They don't have a rim protector, they have 1 good perimeter defender in Ellis, so how is it possible they're better than us with 4 elite perimeter defenders as you said. We should be better, but the coach doesn't put us in a position for success because he does not have his guy, that is just bad coaching. On no planet should the kings be better than us on defense, but they are, and that comes down to coaching because we have the better personnel.

I agree with you that Thibs apart from running his preferred style of defense, he seems like a fish out of his element. So we either need to bank on the elite rim protector completing the picture or switch the coach.

[Clyde_Style]

If Mitch was healthy everyone would be talking about how incredible this team is

We're playing without a Center. It is really that simple.

KAT is freaking awesome, but he's a stretch big and is in every way a PF

There is nothing negative to say about KAT because of this. He's clearly the best player on this team and his help defense will be fine when we have an actual center on the court.

Meanwhile, Thibs plays Sims instead of seasoning Hukporti who has shown more in 20 minutes than Sims has in his whole career

Until we have a C we're going to be around .500, because every team we play has a C and we currently do not have any match-ups

Once we have the C position working again then we'll be talking a different tune about this club. Then they will be one of the best teams in the NBA

[prophet_of_rage]

The Knicks are not a big team. The 5 is 6'10, the 4 is 6'4 and the point is 5'11. They close out on a 3 point shooter and force them to drive to the rim but once you get there there is a small at the rim. Just being able to jump isn't enough. Nobody fears any of our players back there.

Switching isn't a panacea because of the size. Switching will expose Towns and Brunson even more.

Thibs should look into Miami's zone.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[FrozenEnvelope]

Problem is we have no offensive game plan.

The defense will come around cuz we missing 2 defensive bigs right now.

But wtf is our game plan on offense?

I’ll make it simple for you Thibs.

Give KAT the fkn ball.

11th in ppg, 2nd in FG%, 6th in 3PT%, 12th in assists

The offense is fine.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Thibs is terrible at adjustments. Period. He is only going to coach one way and he will force the situation no matter how many games we lose. Players get hurt? Shorten the rotation. More players get hurt, even shorter rotations. Defending the paint at all costs in an era where teams are shooting 40-50 3's a game? Night in and night out some scrub has career games. It's rinse and repeat almost every year.

The fact that we limped to a game shy of the ECF last year seems like a miracle with the players we had available after Julius/OG/Mitch were out and every other player we had dealt with injuries at some point.

That being said, yes, he needs a rim protector to be successful. He has never coached any other way. We have seen it over and over for years. Which begs the question, why we didn't get one after losing Shart and knowing Mitch would be in a walking boot again and again and again? Sims is garbage and we don't even try to play Hukporti at all? Weird. We didn't try to draft one either until the last pick of the entire draft?

It's early and we need players to come back from injury to provide depth at the very least. We have lost several games just being gassed in the fourth. With or without rim protection.

[kNicksGmen]

Problem is we have no offensive game plan.

The defense will come around cuz we missing 2 defensive bigs right now.

But wtf is our game plan on offense?

I’ll make it simple for you Thibs.

Give KAT the fkn ball.

11th in ppg, 2nd in FG%, 6th in 3PT%, 12th in assists

The offense is fine.

this is a lazy take and i'm tired of people quoting stats. the offense doesn't pass the eye test and it has showed down the stretch of many of the losses.

defense is obviously the bigger concern right now, but the offense far too often looks like a struggle - especially when not playing against traditional limited defenses that guard Kat with a slow non defensive big.

the offense is performing largely on talent and shot making - not on scheme. we should be generating a lot more easy/open looks.

[gavran]

Problem is we have no offensive game plan.

The defense will come around cuz we missing 2 defensive bigs right now.

But wtf is our game plan on offense?

I’ll make it simple for you Thibs.

Give KAT the fkn ball.

11th in ppg, 2nd in FG%, 6th in 3PT%, 12th in assists

The offense is fine.

this is a lazy take and i'm tired of people quoting stats. the offense doesn't pass the eye test and it has showed down the stretch of many of the losses.

defense is obviously the bigger concern right now, but the offense far too often looks like a struggle - especially when not playing against traditional limited defenses that guard Kat with a slow non defensive big.

the offense is performing largely on talent and shot making - not on scheme. we should be generating a lot more easy/open looks.

Oh yeah, the famous standardized eye test.

[8516knicks]

"What made them really good [last year] was their ability to defend," a league executive told ESPN. "They're a totally different team now." - ESPN

If Mitch misses 20 games AFTER he comes back in G*d-knows-when, is he moved in the off-season? Is there anyone on the Horizon who can give us 75% of him when he's healthy who is going to be healthy 70 plus games a year??? Losing IHART was a dagger.

[kNicksGmen]

11th in ppg, 2nd in FG%, 6th in 3PT%, 12th in assists

The offense is fine.

this is a lazy take and i'm tired of people quoting stats. the offense doesn't pass the eye test and it has showed down the stretch of many of the losses.

defense is obviously the bigger concern right now, but the offense far too often looks like a struggle - especially when not playing against traditional limited defenses that guard Kat with a slow non defensive big.

the offense is performing largely on talent and shot making - not on scheme. we should be generating a lot more easy/open looks.

Oh yeah, the famous standardized eye test.

i'm open to more useful advanced stats such as percentage of open shots or makes above/below expected etc. to me it feels like guys like OG are taking and making a lot of 3s that aren't sustainable. even Kat isn't going to continue making 50+% of 3s.

the point is if the shotmaking is likely going to regress to the averages/norm - the offensive ratings etc will no longer hold up. also the offense has looked good to great against bad defenses and has largely been a struggle against good ones. especially defenses that can switch or guard hart with their center.

the concern with the offense is more about analyzing the scheme and a prediction of the expected future moreso than actual results so far. a great scorer can make a bad shot - that doesn't make it a good shot or good offense. same as a good offensive scheme can generate good looks and guys just miss them - in those scenarios the basic stats of offensive rating etc are misleading.

Kat is not getting good open looks in this offense. he's not being fed easy rim runs in the PnR etc etc. he's putting up crazy good stats, but that is not because the offense is making it easy for him.

a comp i would use also is look at brunson - his status look good overall, but almost everyone will say something looks off with the eye test, feels like a struggle.

[KnixinSix]

"What made them really good [last year] was their ability to defend," a league executive told ESPN. "They're a totally different team now." - ESPN

If Mitch misses 20 games AFTER he comes back in G*d-knows-when, is he moved in the off-season? Is there anyone on the Horizon who can give us 75% of him when he's healthy who is going to be healthy 70 plus games a year??? Losing IHART was a dagger.

Poetl (19.5)+ Bruno Fernando (2.5) for Mitch (14.3)+ Precious (6)+ Dadiet (1.8) + 2 round picks

[8516knicks]

"What made them really good [last year] was their ability to defend," a league executive told ESPN. "They're a totally different team now." - ESPN

If Mitch misses 20 games AFTER he comes back in G*d-knows-when, is he moved in the off-season? Is there anyone on the Horizon who can give us 75% of him when he's healthy who is going to be healthy 70 plus games a year??? Losing IHART was a dagger.

Poetl (19.5)+ Bruno Fernando (2.5) for Mitch (14.3)+ Precious (6)+ Dadiet (1.8) + 2 round picks

I like Poetl but don't like giving up Precious also, let alone TWO 2nd round picks. Mitch and Dadiet and ONE 2nd rounder. Or look elsewhere.

[WaltFrazier]

"What made them really good [last year] was their ability to defend," a league executive told ESPN. "They're a totally different team now." - ESPN

If Mitch misses 20 games AFTER he comes back in G*d-knows-when, is he moved in the off-season? Is there anyone on the Horizon who can give us 75% of him when he's healthy who is going to be healthy 70 plus games a year??? Losing IHART was a dagger.

After tonight, might Hukporti be an answer to the question? Defensively I mean. He's not iHart offensively but he's mobile, thick, can block shots. Obviously we need to see more sample size but maybe ge can hold the fort till Mitch is back.

[TheDavinciCHODE]

I think we just need any decent rim protector to make this team better. We're playing 6 guys and don't have a single defensive big in the rotation right now.

This team is great on offense and terrible on defense, including rebounding. Those are two problems that a defensive center - Mitch or someone else - will help rectify.

Even just getting another rotation guy in here would probably have won us a few of the games we lost due to lack of depth.

I'm not worried yet.

We know that a team with KAT at the 4 and a defensive center is a viable playoff formula for success. And that Minnesota team had nothing close to OG, Bridges, and Hart on the wings.

I will be worried if we get a center who can play defense and one more rotation player, and still are losing like this.

But this team is nowhere near complete.

Did you all forget 2 seasons ago where people were saying "thib's system doesn't work" and "he ain't the coach for these guys", and "drop coverage is so dumb".

Thib's system made us a top 10 defense last season and that's with acquiring OG at the deadline AND him missing a ton of time. Had he been on this team all season, we'd probably be saying Thib's system made us a top 5 defense.

Like ANY system, Thibs needs a full roster of good players.

BTW, everyone kept complaining about how he was a dinosaur and that we weren't a good enough offense...we are currently the 4th best offense in the league.

TLDR: I'm not sure what you want this defense to look like with KAT at center, and it's our defense, rebounding, and depth that are a problem. Getting Mitch back or trading for another defensive center will help that problem immensely. And getting precious back into the rotation will help as well.

KAT + Brunson + OG + Bridges + Hart + Deuce is an elite offensesive rotation. We just need someone to defend and rebound.

Don't panic until we get that piece in there. If we're still bad, then I'll panic. But right now, the defense and rebounding suck, and that's what's killing us.

100% agreed here.

If KAT plays more 4 with an elite rim protecting and rebounding big...anything we lose offensively will be made up by our increase in rebounding and interior defense. Our D will look like it has when THibs has the right pieces and that's a D that teams absolutely HATE to play against (and usually a top 3-5 D in the entire league).

That could work against the Cavs and Sixers, but it won't work against the Celtics. The Mavs had elite rim protection, 2 elite shot creators and floor spacing, they had a 106.7 ORTG against the Celtics. If you have just 1 non-offensive threat in your lineup they punish you for it, it's why the Pacers of all teams had the best ORTG against them in the playoffs (114.8), because everyone in their starting 5 was a threat. The Mavs offense was killing teams with a 112, 115.9, 118.3 ORTG prior to getting their heads crushed by the Celtics defense.

If the goal is to win regular season games, Tom's boilerplate coaching and 2 bigs will do just fine, if the goal is to win a title you're not getting by a healthy Celtics team playing 2 bigs, they have beaten that type of team routinely since 2018.

I don't think we should define success on only winning a title, because if that's the case, I just don't think it's going to happen. I don't think there's anything we can do to beat the Celtics honestly.

And I think you're missing one key thing here - Dallas got smoked because they had no bigs who can play offense. It was all from the perimeter, where the Cs can absolute lock people down. The C's can't guard skilled bigs though imo. Pascal Siakam went off in the ECF because Boston couldn't guard him.

If we're going to beat Boston, it's going to be through Towns IMO. There's nothing we can do to match boston from the perimeter.

So yeah man. I don't think we can define success this year as beating boston and getting to the finals. I think success should be getting to ECF. There's nothing we can do right now outside of a megatrade for a star like giannis that makes us better than Boston.

And at the very least, we know that a skilled offensive big like siakam can hurt boston, so towns can do some serious damage too.

[The KnicksFix]

"What made them really good [last year] was their ability to defend," a league executive told ESPN. "They're a totally different team now." - ESPN

If Mitch misses 20 games AFTER he comes back in G*d-knows-when, is he moved in the off-season? Is there anyone on the Horizon who can give us 75% of him when he's healthy who is going to be healthy 70 plus games a year??? Losing IHART was a dagger.

After tonight, might Hukporti be an answer to the question? Defensively I mean. He's not iHart offensively but he's mobile, thick, can block shots. Obviously we need to see more sample size but maybe ge can hold the fort till Mitch is back.

Chhilllll Brody, Huk offensive game is wild, thibs has just neutered what he’s allowed to do. Huk legit shoots 3’s, and has a drop step post game. He can play, Thibs just wont allow it.