Game 36: Atlanta Hawks (19-18) @ Phoenix Suns (16-19) | Jan 9 | 7:00PM

[bwgood77]

I’m watching ND vs Penn St game it’s pretty good one too. Penn leading 24-17 with roughly 5 min remaining.

Damn I completely forgot that game was on. Just saw that it was 17-14 in the 4th quarter alone. Given what you said the score was here, it must have been really exciting if ND scored 10 pts in the last 5 minutes.

I expect Ohio St to crush Texas and probably beat ND by at least a td.

[bwgood77]

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Translation: Nurkic getting traded soon! And the Suns don't want to risk an injury that'll derail the trade! everyone keep your eyes open the next 24 hours or so??

Maybe, but honestly I said early in the season I'd rather all the C minutes go to Plumlee and Oso. They are just better. They can't shoot either but they are a little better at finishing inside...but when I say inside, I mean, at the rim. Nurkic can't even do that...he just throws it towards the backboard and hope it goes in.

So given what I've seen from Nurk this season and how much he makes, I can't imagine another team wanting him. The only reason I can see a team trading for him is to get off of someone they don't want...maybe someone who has an injured C or needs depth.

[bwgood77]

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If I were these guys I would hate the media. Even after Beal's great game they were just asking him about how it feels coming off the bench and stuff. Both the first game and tonight. Then someone will take a minor soundbite or tidbit of rsponse and make it sound really negative, even if the answer is very professional, etc.

[bwgood77]

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Beal obviously doesn't like coming off the bench! And egos playing a factor for players in the NBA too, He'll eventually ask for a trade because he feels minimized in his role even though he'd have the best chance to win a championship with this strategy. Being able to actually get more touches and be featured as the primary weapon with the offense running through him. And he potentially getting to entirely remake the perception of a 6th man role historically too. But he's more concerned with role perception affecting his perceived value amongst his peers.

Apparently, he doesn't understand the hierarchy pecking order between him, Booker, and KD. It goes KD, then Booker, and then Beal. There's just a limited amount of touches three "ball dominant" stars can have playing together in the same rotation. It's not rocket science. Coming off the bench is actually a blessing for him as much as it is for the team in that for Beals' interests, he can be the offensive engine and focal point getting the most touches and having the offense run through him as the #1 guy. But that's just not the case in the starting lineup because he's simply not been nearly as good as Durant or Booker despite having numerous opportunities to prove otherwise.

He should be grateful for how this role is repairing his perceived value that was steadily decaying in the starting lineup. If he can't accept this role and do what's best for the team, then he's not truly a team-first player and he can go! (just as soon as he's ready to waive his no-trade clause). Or else he can just stay in this role coming off the bench as long as it takes! The problem will work itself out either way with this move.

You're really taking his response about as negative as you can. I mean when they pester him with these questions, what do you expect him to say? This is about as professional as response as you can get.

He's definitely not making an issue about it. I guess you didn't watch his first game off the bench but he was in good spirits that night.

I mean, of course when they asked him afterwards he said he feels he's a starting level player but will do what is needed of him. I mean do you think he should say "I see myself as a bench guy"?

Did you even watch that podcast from the PHNX guys talking about him and how he is so professional about it and has embraced it and how he even how Dunn said Beal helped him out with encouragement about his nerves about starting? This is talked about around 31:40 or a little before, but they talk about his professionalism with it and everything starting at 30:20.

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Beal is a good natured guy. He definitely thinks he's starting caliber but it's not that big of a deal for him to come off the bench. He's not sweating it. He's making the best of it. He's a great teammate. I mean, everything you hear from internal sources is this stuff.

But people post like a few words in a tweet or here and act like he's super pissed or something. I mean all you have to do is watch. We know what it's like when players are super pissed. We've certainly seen it multiple times as Suns fans. Beal is kind of the opposite, despite all this crap going on in the media, social media, moving to the bench, being badgered with questions about it, etc.

[dremill24]

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If I were these guys I would hate the media. Even after Beal's great game they were just asking him about how it feels coming off the bench and stuff. Both the first game and tonight. Then someone will take a minor soundbite or tidbit of rsponse and make it sound really negative, even if the answer is very professional, etc.

Negativity and drama is what sells, unfortunately. I also think with how visible it is to everyone involved, it's so much harder to ignore and can sometimes become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I still believe Ayton may not have been so upset about his contract negotiations and soured on everything as badly if he wasn't constantly being told he should be, basically, by the nature of the discourse and being asked about it repeatedly.

Beal is being as reasonable as can be expected about it. How long does that last with this stuff continuing to be shoved down his throat? I also can't imagine Nurkic's play has been improved by all the toxicity from the fan base/media around him. It's rough.

[bwgood77]

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If I were these guys I would hate the media. Even after Beal's great game they were just asking him about how it feels coming off the bench and stuff. Both the first game and tonight. Then someone will take a minor soundbite or tidbit of rsponse and make it sound really negative, even if the answer is very professional, etc.

Negativity and drama is what sells, unfortunately. I also think with how visible it is to everyone involved, it's so much harder to ignore and can sometimes become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I still believe Ayton may not have been so upset about his contract negotiations and soured on everything as badly if he wasn't constantly being told he should be, basically, by the nature of the discourse and being asked about it repeatedly.

Beal is being as reasonable as can be expected about it. How long does that last with this stuff continuing to be shoved down his throat? I also can't imagine Nurkic's play has been improved by all the toxicity from the fan base/media around him. It's rough.

Yeah, you could definitely tell that Ayton went downhill fast not right when he didn't get an extension, but as the fanbase toxicity grew, he became worse.

But you are right. People get mad about the way someone isn't acting and if they do it long enough, the person does start acting that way. Our fanbase is so weird and different than it used to be too....not just here but as a whole. They really seem eager to always make one player the scapegoat for everything. And then when they finally make that person disgruntled or that person doesn't care, and we get rid of them, they are forced to make someone else the scapegoat for anything that goes wrong. It certainly feels that way.

Then they seem surprised when we get rid of the scapegoat all our problems are not fixed, as if they really believed that was the entire problem.

Not necessarily here, but I bet there is a pretty significant chunk of our fanbase that thinks if we can trade Beal for Butler we will have a decent shot at a championship.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Translation: Nurkic getting traded soon! And the Suns don't want to risk an injury that'll derail the trade! everyone keep your eyes open the next 24 hours or so??

Maybe, but honestly I said early in the season I'd rather all the C minutes go to Plumlee and Oso. They are just better. They can't shoot either but they are a little better at finishing inside...but when I say inside, I mean, at the rim. Nurkic can't even do that...he just throws it towards the backboard and hope it goes in.

So given what I've seen from Nurk this season and how much he makes, I can't imagine another team wanting him. The only reason I can see a team trading for him is to get off of someone they don't want...maybe someone who has an injured C or needs depth.

In a scenario trading Nurkic, I agree that it'd be pretty difficult to find teams that want him. That's why we'd have to attach assets (draft picks) just to move him. Now whether or not that would become multiple 2nds or a 1st will depend on the specific trade of course. But I could see a tanking rebuilding team like Washington doing it for a couple of 2nds and sending back Valuncias and another bad contract (ie; Johnny Davis as a salary filler) and then bottom out more for a higher pick. Or maybe a team like Portland IF they're getting two 2nds because Williams has legit durability concerns anyways. But with Portland, it'd be much more about getting some assets because Williams makes less contractually and expires at the same time as Nurkic. Ultimately, IF we valued Timelord and prioritized trading for him, It likely would be an overpay scenario of multiple 2nds (at minimum) and them sending back fillers to maintain their cap space in the deal.

The reality is that we're most likely stuck with him and will have to keep him coming off the bench. But as decent as Plumlee has been, he's aged and just not athletic enough or quick enough to be our legit starting 5 IF we're serious about our postseason. This is why I'd look at trying to trade him for a 2nd or two if possible?? Then you use the additional 2nds or whatever you'd get from a Plumlee, Bol, D Lee trade (or a mid to late 1st from a Tyus trade rather than just losing him for nothing this summer) in a center upgrade and filler package.

IF we couldn't really move Nurkic for Valuncias (or Mitchell Robinson), I'd look at just keeping him as our big body backup center option and use our multiple 2nds along with Okogie or Allen for a Richards trade (should be our #1 priority) even over Butler. Heck, I'd even look at doing these two trades:

1- Charlotte
Allen/ 2 2nds for Richards/ S Curry.
Richards replaces Plumlee as our starting center. Seth Curry would replace D Lee as 3rd rotation SG, additional gunner.

2- Brooklyn
Okogie/ 2 2nds for Sharpe/ Watford.
This would give us rotations of:

Jones/ Booker/ Dunn/ Durant/ Richards.
Morris/ Beal/ O'neale/ Ighodaro/ Nurkic.
Gillespie/ S Curry/ Watford/ Bol / Sharpe.

[mkot]

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Proof of concept of the importance of high motor athlete surrounding your star players

[sunsfan1o1]

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Beal obviously doesn't like coming off the bench! And egos playing a factor for players in the NBA too, He'll eventually ask for a trade because he feels minimized in his role even though he'd have the best chance to win a championship with this strategy. Being able to actually get more touches and be featured as the primary weapon with the offense running through him. And he potentially getting to entirely remake the perception of a 6th man role historically too. But he's more concerned with role perception affecting his perceived value amongst his peers.

Apparently, he doesn't understand the hierarchy pecking order between him, Booker, and KD. It goes KD, then Booker, and then Beal. There's just a limited amount of touches three "ball dominant" stars can have playing together in the same rotation. It's not rocket science. Coming off the bench is actually a blessing for him as much as it is for the team in that for Beals' interests, he can be the offensive engine and focal point getting the most touches and having the offense run through him as the #1 guy. But that's just not the case in the starting lineup because he's simply not been nearly as good as Durant or Booker despite having numerous opportunities to prove otherwise.

He should be grateful for how this role is repairing his perceived value that was steadily decaying in the starting lineup. If he can't accept this role and do what's best for the team, then he's not truly a team-first player and he can go! (just as soon as he's ready to waive his no-trade clause). Or else he can just stay in this role coming off the bench as long as it takes! The problem will work itself out either way with this move.

This is false.
The pecking order is Booker, KD Beal. That’s because it’s Booker’s “team” all because he’s been here since a rookie.
However in real life it should be KD, Beal then Booker.
This is why we’re not as good as we should be. Because as you said to soothe Mr. Softie’s ego (Booker), he has to be 1.
Beal is just a better all around player than Booker and he definitely shouldn’t be coming off the bench.

Actually, this is incorrect man. KD is first because he's the most established and unstoppable of the scorers, which is clearly why even Booker himself defers to him along with the rest of the team for the final shot as well as getting buckets whenever they're struggling offensively. KD is an all time great (even at his age now) and Booker is great too, but just a 1B level star to the 1A's such as KD, Shai, Jokic, and other MVP level talents. I do agree with you that it's Booker's team though. But we're all still waiting for him to take that leap into that higher tier.

Also, Beal now is always in the game with either KD or Booker so what you’re saying about him being the “engine.” This won’t happen because he’s either with KD and he clearly knows KD is 1 so doesn’t overstep.
Then he’ll be with Booker and Booker thinks he’s Kobe so he takes awful shots and Beal is left standing in the corner.

Beal is always in the game because our coach unfortunately capitulated to give him starters minutes to try and stroke his ego because he's making 50 million and was an elite starter level star not long ago. He's simply not that level of player anymore unfortunately as has been obviously illustrated by his production struggles and inconsistencies through multiple opportunities with either Booker or Durant out. He's still great at times, and a definitive starter level fringe star talent. But he's in early decline and his inconsistencies have shown he just can't take over like he used to. This is why he's best served off the bench as the numbers and/or teams' success pretty clearly indicates. And I think you might he misunderstanding me about the whole " engine" label. I'm saying that he's our offensive engine off the bench, which allows him to still be the number 1 offensive conduit getting the most touches and being the focal point with that group. This is clearly a benefit for him as in the starting rotation,
he simply wouldnt be getting as many touches being the 3rd option with Booker and KD clearly being higher in the pecking order with this current roster construction. Beal is a fine and elite talent for sure. But just not on KD and Booker's tier currently. And due to this factor is the 3rd option, but is best served with our roster construction to come off the bench in order to be freed up to get more touches.

Beal works best with the ball in his hand at the top with a high pick and roll and snake action. He’s an elite ball handler, scorer, shooter and passer.

I agree with you here, but again, as you yourself stated in your reply, KD is top dog (currently) and this is Booker's team as the 2nd option or the Robim to KDs' "Batman" as so many like to phrase it. In the starting rotation, Beal is a 3rd option which means he just wouldn't get enough touches or looks to be able to properly showcase his scoring prowess or other elite abilities due to having only one ball with 3 ball dominant elite talents. There's just not enough possessions in that rotation for him to be optimized. This is why it's optimal for him to come off the bench. I was actually a strong advocate for Beal to be the one (ala Westbrook) in the early season because I believed he could be the elite point guard/ playmaker and Booker could go back to his more natural position at SG. But Beal and the team struggled with this because Beal as elite as he is, is wired to score and is a facsimile of Booker in that they're both elite shooting guards. But Beal rather score and Booker looks to pass more than scoring ( ever since Paul came here). And honestly, it's messing up their natural instincts to play to their elite traits by putting scoring 2nd for something that isn't really what they're best at. This is why we had so many turnovers prior to bringing in a true point guard in Tyus Jones. And again why Beal is best served coming off the bench. Because our roster construction is severely flawed and redundant between Booker and Beal being two nearly identical players at the same position.
They're being improperly utilized when together on the floor together.

Booker is just an elite mid range shooter. He’s average or below average at every other offensive skill.

While I can agree that Booker is NO Kobe, he's clearly not as " one dimensional as your making him seem. Is he a top tier feanchise level star? Not really. He's one tier below and as I've stated is a " robin" to a player like KDs' batman. But this is his team and he's clearly not average or below in lost things. He's at times shown elite versatility in his game with his assists over the past number of games being the most recent example. Also he's shown elite efficiency for durations throughout his career. He's currently in the top 7 for assists, has proven at times to he an elite free throw shooter too. Is he average or below as a ballhandler? Yes. It he average as a defender? Most of the time. Is he an average NBA athlete? Sure. But again, he's clearly not average below at EVERY other offensive skill as your promoting here man. He's even shown brief instances of elite 3 pt shooting too at times, but Booker's issue that prevents him from being consistently elite and taking that next step is actually his soft and weak mentality which is why he may idolize Kobe. But doesn't have the same killer mentality and relentless drive for greatness anymore. Both he and Beal have become or are just too soft spoken and nice in personality traits to be top tier stars. Bookers' just a medically better (more efficient) version of Beal. This is why the consensus rankings have Booker at #30 currently, and Beal at # 75 in the top 100.

To make it worse, Bookers defense is suspect. Beal plays great defense.
So now we only have 1 defender in the starting lineup in Dunn.

Both Booker and Beal play decent not really great defense and that's fine because neither are known for their defense. BOTH are on known for their elite offense. Booker for efficiency/ shooting, and Beal for shooting/ scoring versatility. Booker has the edge in some matchups for his size advantage. And Beal to his credit has the advantage in others due to his better athleticism and speed.

Jones, Booker, KD, Plumlee are all suspect defenders.

Jones maybe! Booker against average to slightly above average at times. And KD has at times been elite to near elite for us despite his age. Plumlee is just too old and not mobile or athletic enough anymore.

Don’t be fooled by that game last night. Hawks took too many 3s and they died by it in the end. If Jalen Johnson played we would’ve lost.

Possibly? I love Jalen Johnson and would want him coming back in a trade if we ever traded KD there. But we won the game by playing with more energy and playing with more grit ( activityand awareness). Noware we in the clear yet? Not at all. As I said the other game, this is only a step in the right direction and there's much more needed still to get fully back on track.

Trading Beal for Butler would be a disaster because Beal and Butler defense is equal. Butlers shooting is awful and he’s far less talented offensively. He’s also older and just as soft and injury prone as Beal. It’s like the Suns think this is nba 2k.

I don't want them to trade for Butler for any other reason than to get off of Beals' contract and trade KD and Booker and try and recover our oost assets to rebuild! Beal is a much better offensive player than Butler.
And Butler is a better overall defender if even just marginally over Beal. But the reason why most everyone is talking about us trading for Butler is because our big three is soft mentally and none of the three are really tough vocal leaders that'll hold players accountable.
Ishbia wants him because he's anotherbig name and because KD wants him here! Which I think would be a huge mistake honestly. Again,
I don't really want the Butter trade to even happen.

Also, our coach is not very intelligent. Challenges dumb calls in the first quarter that have no impact on the score or anything.

I agree with you here! His rotations are suspect even after 30+ gamesinto the season.
And his challenges are very I'll timed. And we still have no discernable offensive scheme, defensive identity, or identity in general. Now I don't hate him or dislike him at all, but he could/ should be much better this far into the season. And I truly hope that he will be.

Vogel was better I think.

I agree again with you here. Vogel was a better defensive coach and wasn't really the problem for our struggles last season. Although both coaches failed to hold the big three andplayrrs accountable and as is customary in the NBA, you have to have a fall guy. And coaches will almost always go before any star players. But then this is the problem with star players and/ or big contract players.
They do what they want sometimes and don't always listen to their coaches.

All fair points and valid assessments.
I don’t agree with some things but mostly everything.
I think Book, KD and Beal are all being used improperly.

We know who Book is. He’s reached his ceiling. He would thrive playing like Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen. Just have him run baseline to baseline come off down screens and curls and just catch and shoot all day. No dribbling no thinking. Just shooting. When Beal and KD are on the bench he can get busy with high pick and rolls for a few minutes.

KD should be used like Dirk or Melo. He should get the ball high post where Dirk always got it to prevent double teams and just go to work. No passing no picks.

Beal should get the ball as soon as Tyus brings it past half court. Center should be setting picks for him at the top of the 3 and he can do his thing mid range or at the basket.

When all three are in the game together just rotate the plays for those 3. When 1 or 2 are in together always defer to KD.
If KD is out Beal makes the decisions because he’s unselfish and will look for Book. Book won’t look for Beal unless Book can’t get a shot.