Shaq's defense vs. Jokic's offense

[picc]

Oh lord. Give me a break.

If Mike Bibby and Chris Webber decided to play 2-man game for Bibby pick and pops, there is absolutely nothing Nikola "I stood 6 feet away from Chris Paul while he walked into wide open midrangers" Jokic could or would do about it. And if anyone thinks they're about to gaslight me into thinking Jokic's perimeter defense is meaningfully better than Shaq's, you're out of your mind.

When an OP writes a post like this, it signals to the rest of us that the OP wasn’t ever interested in what we had to say.

I have no interest in or time for utter nonsense. That is correct.

Fortunately, the majority of the thread has not been posters attempting to rewrite reality into Nikola Jokic, of all people, being a perimeter stalwart, as if I don't have eyes, suffered a memory-altering brain injury, or can't just youtube a playoff game and watch his presence be the catalyst not just for wide open drop coverage jumpers (just like Shaq) but also a red carpet layup line to the rim (unlike Shaq).

And for that I am genuinely thankful. Although I also sincerely appreciate the participation of anyone in general, and I mean that. God bless you all.

[picc]

saying jokic could be shaq on offense depending on his mood is kinda crazy no?

dont wanna hate on jokic or anything, he surely deserves to be in the discussion for GOAT bigs especially on offense. But i can not and did not ever see any resemblence of shaq in his game. Getting to the rim for jokic is based on body controly, footwork and outmaneuvering his defenders. Shaq overpowered them, thats two completely different player types imo.

Does anybody have a clip or something where i can see shades of shaq in jokic' game?`Im down to change my opinion, i just dont see it (yet).

Check out some of his scoring highlights vs the Lakers in the playoffs. He was bullying AD into the rim, similar to how Shaq used to bully players to the rim. No he wasn't dunking everything once he got there, but then, neither was Shaq, right? Shaq was mostly jump hooks and turnaround push shots. Jokic can do a lot of that when he puts his mind to it.

[picc]

Shaq has really weak portability defensively - his PNR coverage was a liability against Mike Bibby in 2002, I can't even fathom how big of a problem it would've been nowadays.

But he played in an era of low pace / very mid offensive level / mid talent on perimeter - and there, he was indeed net positive in 2002 in above average defensive team, and he was very net positive on the best playoff team defensively in 2001, and net positive on the best defense in the league in 2000.

Jokic would've been a better defender than right now in that era as well, but still not as good as Shaq, I guess.

I guess the main difference is that Jokic is much more consistent regular season performer. Better defense vs worse offense is just a matter of choice.

Sure but Bibby would have torched Jokic too. Agree with the rest.

It's not just Mike Bibby. Troy Hudson of all people looked like a star against Shaq (and Fisher) in the PnR in 2003.

And Hudson, in that same situation, would have looked like a star against Jokic. Boy was on one the whole series, didn't matter who was on him.

Fun fact: Bibby scored 10 field goals in the 2002 WCF with Shaq as the primary PnR defender. Roughly 1.5 per game. In Hudson's highest scoring game against LA in 2003, the 37 pointer, he scored 1 FG with Shaq as the primary defender.

In the '21 semis, Chris Paul scored 8 field goals on Jokic as the primary PnR defender, in game 4 alone.

I'm aware Shaq had struggles with perimeter defense back then, and he'd have them moreso now: But what evidence is there that Jokic would do better in meaningful situations? Old CP made foie gras out of him. Curry grilled him like carne asada in their series'. Shot right over him, or dribbled right past him like he wasn't there.

The guards who actually attempt to attack Jokic's PnR defense, do so extremely successfully. Would they do it to Shaq too? Of course they would. But I'm not the one arguing a player who is clearly a defensive liability in important game scenarios is in fact, not one.

I'm also fair -- I'd agree that Jokic is slightly more mobile on the perimeter than Shaq is. But to what tangible effect? Not enough to stop or even threaten those who spammed the tactic to barbecue him out of the playoffs, right? If I lived in an alternate reality where NBA players weren't allowed to enter the paint, I guess I'd be more amenable to caring about Jokic appearing more nimble as he also gets cooked.

But if his perimeter D has been exploited in significantly more disastrous ways than Shaq's, even in the most egregious examples for the Diesel you could cite; and he also exhibits chronic ineptitude in protecting the paint -- the source of the highest percentage field goals available to an opposing player; I'm left wondering why this admittedly-existing-but-functionally-useless mobility advantage demands attention?

[NoStatsGuy]

saying jokic could be shaq on offense depending on his mood is kinda crazy no?

dont wanna hate on jokic or anything, he surely deserves to be in the discussion for GOAT bigs especially on offense. But i can not and did not ever see any resemblence of shaq in his game. Getting to the rim for jokic is based on body controly, footwork and outmaneuvering his defenders. Shaq overpowered them, thats two completely different player types imo.

Does anybody have a clip or something where i can see shades of shaq in jokic' game?`Im down to change my opinion, i just dont see it (yet).

Check out some of his scoring highlights vs the Lakers in the playoffs. He was bullying AD into the rim, similar to how Shaq used to bully players to the rim. No he wasn't dunking everything once he got there, but then, neither was Shaq, right? Shaq was mostly jump hooks and turnaround push shots. Jokic can do a lot of that when he puts his mind to it.

yea i did some youtubing regarding this yesterday. I must say, i dont see it at all. Just because jokic can post up and has a strong lowerbody i wouldnt say he can play like shaq. because prime shaq was a different beast. you can stop jokic with a foul when he wants to attack the rim, you couldnt stop shaq, you just couldnt. luckily he couldnt hit free throws, so fouling him was kind of an effective defense. im not sure if you have seen prime shaq, if not you should watch some.

again, not saying jokic is worse or better. he surely is one of the GOAT bigs. but i just dont see the shaq comparison.

[BelgradeNugget]

Sure but Bibby would have torched Jokic too. Agree with the rest.

It's not just Mike Bibby. Troy Hudson of all people looked like a star against Shaq (and Fisher) in the PnR in 2003.

And Hudson, in that same situation, would have looked like a star against Jokic. Boy was on one the whole series, didn't matter who was on him.

Fun fact: Bibby scored 10 field goals in the 2002 WCF with Shaq as the primary PnR defender. Roughly 1.5 per game. In Hudson's highest scoring game against LA in 2003, the 37 pointer, he scored 1 FG with Shaq as the primary defender.

In the '21 semis, Chris Paul scored 8 field goals on Jokic as the primary PnR defender, in game 4 alone.

I'm aware Shaq had struggles with perimeter defense back then, and he'd have them moreso now: But what evidence is there that Jokic would do better in meaningful situations? Old CP made foie gras out of him. Curry grilled him like carne asada in their series'. Shot right over him, or dribbled right past him like he wasn't there.

The guards who actually attempt to attack Jokic's PnR defense, do so extremely successfully. Would they do it to Shaq too? Of course they would. But I'm not the one arguing a player who is clearly a defensive liability in important game scenarios is in fact, not one.

I'm also fair -- I'd agree that Jokic is slightly more mobile on the perimeter than Shaq is. But to what tangible effect? Not enough to stop or even threaten those who spammed the tactic to barbecue him out of the playoffs, right? If I lived in an alternate reality where NBA players weren't allowed to enter the paint, I guess I'd be more amenable to caring about Jokic appearing more nimble as he also gets cooked.

But if his perimeter D has been exploited in significantly more disastrous ways than Shaq's, even in the most egregious examples for the Diesel you could cite; and he also exhibits chronic ineptitude in protecting the paint -- the source of the highest percentage field goals available to an opposing player; I'm left wondering why this admittedly-existing-but-functionally-useless mobility advantage demands attention?

I'm not into this who is better perimeter defender or who would do bretter in situation he was not in.
Just a little reminder - PnR is a 2 man defense. It is one thing when you guard PnR with Kobe or Fisher and another when you guard it with Campazzo or Monte Morris. When Jokic had KCP, Bruce Brown, Christian Braun as partner defenders in PnR, thigs looked totaly different in 2023 playoffs run.

[SonicMcMahon]

Does Shaq's defense in the interior sufficiently make up the offensive gap, if you believe there is one?

Shaq was a vastly better defender than Jokic. And what offensive gap are you taking about? There is none. It's an easy case to say Shaq was better on offense.

Shaq's first 3 years in the league (1992-93 to 1994-95, ages 20-22) he lead the league in points scored (6585, 27.3 pts/g). He was 2nd in the league in offensive rebounds (1054), 1st in 2pt FG% (58.4%) for anyone with 5000+ minutes played, 2nd in FTAs (2425, 10.1 FTA/g), and even though he shot only a 56% FT% was 4th in FTM (1353).

What was Jokic doing ages 20-22, his first 3 seasons (2015-16 to 2017-18) in the league? 43rd in most points scored (3402), 15th in offensive rebounds (588), 12th in highest 2pt FG% (57.1%) for anyone with 5000+ minutes played, 51st in most FTAs (731), 47th in FTM (608).

Guess there was a huge gap - favor of Shaq.

Defensively? Shaq those 3 seasons 709 blocks, Jokic his first 3 seasons just 166 blocks. Orlando Shaq's first 3 seasons the Magic as a team allowed a league 5th lowest 47.2% 2pt FG%. Jokic's Nuggets his first 3 years in the league? Denver allowed the 5th highest/worst 2pt FG% in the league at 51.4%.

How about Shaq's 8 years (1996-97 to 2003-04) with the Lakers compared to Jokic's last 8 seasons with Denver (2017-18 to 2024-25)?

These 8 seasons Shaq leads the Lakers in minutes played, the Lakers allowed a league 5th lowest 45.4% opponent 2pt FG%. Shaq blocks 1278 shots, 5th most by a player in the league, and no one else on the Lakers blocks more than 446.

Shaq also scores the 2nd most points among all players in the league (13895, 27.0 pts/g), shoots the highest 2pt FG% at 57.6% among players with 5000+ minutes played, grabs the most offensive rebounds (1957), attempts by far the most FTAs (5572), and despite shooting just a 53% FT% makes the 6th most FTM (2971). The Lakers average a 57-25 W-L record over 8 seasons.

Jokic's 8 seasons with Denver he leads them in minutes played, the Nuggets allow a league 9th highest/worst 53.6% opponent 2pt FG%. Jokic blocks just 431 shots, only the 34th most by a player in the league.

Jokic scores the 2nd most points by a player in the league (14193, but just 24.0 pts/g), shoots just the 29th highest 2pt FG% (61.4%) among players with 5000+ minutes played, grabs just the 7th most offensive rebounds (1590), attempts just the 14th most FTAs (3132), makes just the 13th most FTM (2582). The Nuggets average a W-L record between 51-31 and 52-30.

Shaq scored better, shot better relative to the rest of the league, attempted far more FTAs (getting far more opponents into foul trouble and sent to the bench), was the much better offensive rebounder compared to Jokic. And most important, he did this committing far fewer turnovers (1446) than Jokic did (1901).

How about Shaq's offense vs Jokic's defense which do you prefer?

I would take Shaq's defense over Jokic's offense, Shaq's offense over Jokic's offense, Shaq's offense over Jokic's defense, and Shaq's defense over Jokic's defense.

You would take Shaq’s defence over Jokic’s offense? Meaning, if you had to choose between two one-way specialists, you’d choose the guy with Shaq’s D over the guys with Jokic’s O? You sure about that?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Oh lord. Give me a break.

If Mike Bibby and Chris Webber decided to play 2-man game for Bibby pick and pops, there is absolutely nothing Nikola "I stood 6 feet away from Chris Paul while he walked into wide open midrangers" Jokic could or would do about it. And if anyone thinks they're about to gaslight me into thinking Jokic's perimeter defense is meaningfully better than Shaq's, you're out of your mind.

to be honest, that's a really "out of your mind" take for whoever actually remembers Shaq real career and not an idealized version of what could have been.
There have been many good drop centers in recent years, non of them was aa passive as Shaq in those situations. And Shaq had very good on ball defenders in 2002, unlike Jokic when he faced the Suns.

[kcktiny]

You would take Shaq’s defence over Jokic’s offense? Meaning, if you had to choose between two one-way specialists, you’d choose the guy with Shaq’s D over the guys with Jokic’s O?

In a heartbeat. Both his defense and his offense over Jokic's offense.

You sure about that?

Absolutely. What are you missing?

Like many you too are enthralled with Jokic because of his passing. Great passer. Love to watch him play - on offense.

But offensively if I want to win I want a C that can score, shoot a high FG%, draw fouls (to get opposing Cs sent to the bench early), and rebound offensively.

I don't need a C that throws for a lot of assists. That's what PGs are for. PGs don't typically draw a ton of fouls or grab a ton of offensive rebounds. That's what offensive minded Cs (that win) typically do.

Look at both players' first decade in the league - Shaq 2688 off rebs, Jokic 1983, Shaq 7107 FTAs, Jokic 3550. It's not even close. Shaq's the much better offensive rebounder, has more than twice the FTAs Jokic has, meaning he sent far more opposing starting Cs to the bench early and got them out of the game.

Shaq's first dozen seasons in the league he attempted 8508 FTAs (that's 10.5 FTA per game). No other C in the league attempted more than 6100 FTAs. How many opposing Cs do you think played their average min/g going up against Shaq? That means more minutes played by opposing teams' reserve Cs rather than their starting Cs. You think that might help win a lot of games?

Plus I want a C that dominates on both offense and defense. Prime Shaq was a very good defensive C bordering on excellent. A step below Olajuwon, DRob, Ben Wallace, Mutombo. He was better on offense than Jokic, and a far far better defender than Jokic.

Again - look at the low opposing team 2pt FG% Shaq's teams allowed, over long stretches of time.

Lastly, Jokic's decade in the league he played just 32 min/g. Shaq's first decade in the league he played 38 min/g. Give me Shaq's defense for 38 min/g over Jokic's offense for 32 min/g all day every day. No second thought about it.

That clear enough for you?

[Rubios]

Dude, Jokic is the big man with better TS% ever.
How can't he score?
In the last PO he has two games with 22 and 21 rebounds.

Jokic doesn't draw fouls because:
1. Many players have had good words about him not faking or searching for them. He did his flopping vs OKC, but was mostly because...
2. Jokic with fair whistle in this era of centers shortage would be almost a cheat code.

[Lockdown504090]

Dude, Jokic is the big man with better TS% ever.
How can't he score?
In the last PO he has two games with 22 and 21 rebounds.

Jokic doesn't draw fouls because:
1. Many players have had good words about him not faking or searching for them. He did his flopping vs OKC, but was mostly because...
2. Jokic with fair whistle in this era of centers shortage would be almost a cheat code.

fair whistle is the biggest bag of bullcrap in the world. Just say you dont understand how fouls work and keep it moving. the guys a superstar of the highest order. he, lebron steph, are just not that good at drawing fouls. its a skill, and it has tradeoffs. if jokic was doing what other guys were doing to get to the line, his field goal percentage would fall and his turnovers would rise because you have to sell out and risk those things to get the calls and he doesnt do that.

[dhsilv2]

And yet 2014-2015 CP3 is higher on OWS than any Jokic season

Well CP3 being discussed at a GOAT level offensive player isn't a wild take. But also played more minutes that year than any Jokic season.

and the season that beats Jokic with similar MPG is...2015-2016 Steph Curry, and 2015 CP3 averaged about the same minutes as Jokic's MVP years.

OK...well Curry over Jokic is again not a hot take.

[Capn'O]

Where Jokic sucks is vertical defense beyond his height. There's no hops in any situation, so once the game goes vertical, he simply has an exact limit of his height+his wingspan. Shaq and most other centers were able to make vertical plays. It's a big weakness that's sort of rare for a center.

That is the perfect way of describing Jokic's defensive weakness. Thank you.

Per your follow up post, maybe the Nuggets need another Orlando trade for Jon Isaac.

[Capn'O]

Shaq would struggle immensely in this perimeter-oriented era. IMO, he'd slow the game down to a halt, he'd be a sieve in pick-&-roll defense, and he's not running out to the 3-point line to contest anybody.

This is probably blasphemous, but the NBA game has moved far away from what Shaq was used to.

I think this concern is overblown. At least some of Shaq's weight gain was by design. It made him utterly unstoppable on the interior without a legion of fouls and most of his defensive matchups didn't come out of the paint much, where he could simply be an immovable obstacle. But Orlando Shaq was a lean 300 lb wrecking machine who did come out on the perimeter to guard guys like Ewing fairly effectively when he wanted to. That last part is the rub. If he had wanted to, he had the tools to be fine on defense in today's game.

[Rubios]

As for Jokic as a scorer, that's only a fraction of his overall offensive contribution:

I’m only talking about percentages in his most dominant playoff runs, because that’s where the bar is set for the truly great players.
In terms of scoring volume, they’re practically even. It’s debatable (there are postseasons where Jokic surpasses him), but we can agree that Shaq’s FG% is only anecdotally higher.
Jokic’s TS% is —very— significantly superior.

And while every player is a product of his era, I don’t think that really applies to Shaq in this case. Shaq was a very poor shooter, period.
Whether it’s easier/better to be a center today or in the late ’90s/early 2000s is debatable.
The paint was much more congested, but it was also the focal point of the offense.

This isn’t an attack on Shaq, whom I consider among the top 10 all-time (a place Jokic doesn’t belong yet). But if we’re talking about the BEST bigs (and strictly in terms of high-volume scoring)...

As a big, above Jokic there’s only Kareem at his peak, with the so-called most unstoppable move in any sport.
In a given postseason, Anthony Davis COULD and has been, and Giannis still might be.
But consistently, in the last 50 years, only KAJ has been a best high volume scoring big.

And this is factual.

[Sixers in 4]

Neither of them are good defenders, but Jokic is more of a defensive black hole.

Shaq was absolutely a great defender before he got fat and decided he only wanted to do his work in the post and even at that point he couldn't be moved inside and still was a good defender for his era.

Jokic is not a good defender period. He's slow. He doesn't block or alter shots. People need to stop making excuses for the dudes defense.

[cupcakesnake]

Where Jokic sucks is vertical defense beyond his height. There's no hops in any situation, so once the game goes vertical, he simply has an exact limit of his height+his wingspan. Shaq and most other centers were able to make vertical plays. It's a big weakness that's sort of rare for a center.

That is the perfect way of describing Jokic's defensive weakness. Thank you.

Per your follow up post, maybe the Nuggets need another Orlando trade for Jon Isaac.

That would be completely unfair for about 15 minutes per night, 40 games per year!

But yeah, I'd be really curious to see Jokic paired with someone with that kind of ground coverage and ability to defend vertically.

[picc]

It's not just Mike Bibby. Troy Hudson of all people looked like a star against Shaq (and Fisher) in the PnR in 2003.

And Hudson, in that same situation, would have looked like a star against Jokic. Boy was on one the whole series, didn't matter who was on him.

Fun fact: Bibby scored 10 field goals in the 2002 WCF with Shaq as the primary PnR defender. Roughly 1.5 per game. In Hudson's highest scoring game against LA in 2003, the 37 pointer, he scored 1 FG with Shaq as the primary defender.

In the '21 semis, Chris Paul scored 8 field goals on Jokic as the primary PnR defender, in game 4 alone.

I'm aware Shaq had struggles with perimeter defense back then, and he'd have them moreso now: But what evidence is there that Jokic would do better in meaningful situations? Old CP made foie gras out of him. Curry grilled him like carne asada in their series'. Shot right over him, or dribbled right past him like he wasn't there.

The guards who actually attempt to attack Jokic's PnR defense, do so extremely successfully. Would they do it to Shaq too? Of course they would. But I'm not the one arguing a player who is clearly a defensive liability in important game scenarios is in fact, not one.

I'm also fair -- I'd agree that Jokic is slightly more mobile on the perimeter than Shaq is. But to what tangible effect? Not enough to stop or even threaten those who spammed the tactic to barbecue him out of the playoffs, right? If I lived in an alternate reality where NBA players weren't allowed to enter the paint, I guess I'd be more amenable to caring about Jokic appearing more nimble as he also gets cooked.

But if his perimeter D has been exploited in significantly more disastrous ways than Shaq's, even in the most egregious examples for the Diesel you could cite; and he also exhibits chronic ineptitude in protecting the paint -- the source of the highest percentage field goals available to an opposing player; I'm left wondering why this admittedly-existing-but-functionally-useless mobility advantage demands attention?

I'm not into this who is better perimeter defender or who would do bretter in situation he was not in.
Just a little reminder - PnR is a 2 man defense. It is one thing when you guard PnR with Kobe or Fisher and another when you guard it with Campazzo or Monte Morris. When Jokic had KCP, Bruce Brown, Christian Braun as partner defenders in PnR, thigs looked totaly different in 2023 playoffs run.

When both of them end up guarding in space against perimeter players with handle and shots, both of them get cooked. Every example I cited the defending guard was not in the picture and it was the big responsible for help. Both players were unremarkable at best and Jokic actually got the worst of it so I see no point in harping on his theoretical mobility advantage.

FWIW 2023 Jokic was a positive defender IMO and I'm speaking to every other year.

[picc]

saying jokic could be shaq on offense depending on his mood is kinda crazy no?

dont wanna hate on jokic or anything, he surely deserves to be in the discussion for GOAT bigs especially on offense. But i can not and did not ever see any resemblence of shaq in his game. Getting to the rim for jokic is based on body controly, footwork and outmaneuvering his defenders. Shaq overpowered them, thats two completely different player types imo.

Does anybody have a clip or something where i can see shades of shaq in jokic' game?`Im down to change my opinion, i just dont see it (yet).

Check out some of his scoring highlights vs the Lakers in the playoffs. He was bullying AD into the rim, similar to how Shaq used to bully players to the rim. No he wasn't dunking everything once he got there, but then, neither was Shaq, right? Shaq was mostly jump hooks and turnaround push shots. Jokic can do a lot of that when he puts his mind to it.

yea i did some youtubing regarding this yesterday. I must say, i dont see it at all. Just because jokic can post up and has a strong lowerbody i wouldnt say he can play like shaq. because prime shaq was a different beast. you can stop jokic with a foul when he wants to attack the rim, you couldnt stop shaq, you just couldnt. luckily he couldnt hit free throws, so fouling him was kind of an effective defense. im not sure if you have seen prime shaq, if not you should watch some.

again, not saying jokic is worse or better. he surely is one of the GOAT bigs. but i just dont see the shaq comparison.

To each his own.

[Rubios]

As for Jokic as a scorer, that's only a fraction of his overall offensive contribution:

I’m only talking about percentages in his most dominant playoff runs, because that’s where the bar is set for the truly great players.
In terms of scoring volume, they’re practically even. It’s debatable (there are postseasons where Jokic surpasses him), but we can agree that Shaq’s FG% is only anecdotally higher.
Jokic’s TS% is —very— significantly superior.

And while every player is a product of his era, I don’t think that really applies to Shaq in this case. Shaq was a very poor shooter, period.
Whether it’s easier/better to be a center today or in the late ’90s/early 2000s is debatable.
The paint was much more congested, but it was also the focal point of the offense.

This isn’t an attack on Shaq, whom I consider among the top 10 all-time (a place Jokic doesn’t belong yet). But if we’re talking about the BEST bigs (and strictly in terms of high-volume scoring)...

As a big, above Jokic there’s only Kareem at his peak, with the so-called most unstoppable move in any sport.
In a given postseason, Anthony Davis COULD and has been, and Giannis still might be.
But consistently, in the last 50 years, only KAJ has been a best high volume scoring big.

And this is factual.

I'm quoting myself because I thought half of this thread was about Jokic's offense and things have been said that are false, incorrect or incomplete.

[SonicMcMahon]

You would take Shaq’s defence over Jokic’s offense? Meaning, if you had to choose between two one-way specialists, you’d choose the guy with Shaq’s D over the guys with Jokic’s O?

In a heartbeat. Both his defense and his offense over Jokic's offense.

You sure about that?

Absolutely. What are you missing?

Like many you too are enthralled with Jokic because of his passing. Great passer. Love to watch him play - on offense.

But offensively if I want to win I want a C that can score, shoot a high FG%, draw fouls (to get opposing Cs sent to the bench early), and rebound offensively.

I don't need a C that throws for a lot of assists. That's what PGs are for. PGs don't typically draw a ton of fouls or grab a ton of offensive rebounds. That's what offensive minded Cs (that win) typically do.

Look at both players' first decade in the league - Shaq 2688 off rebs, Jokic 1983, Shaq 7107 FTAs, Jokic 3550. It's not even close. Shaq's the much better offensive rebounder, has more than twice the FTAs Jokic has, meaning he sent far more opposing starting Cs to the bench early and got them out of the game.

Shaq's first dozen seasons in the league he attempted 8508 FTAs (that's 10.5 FTA per game). No other C in the league attempted more than 6100 FTAs. How many opposing Cs do you think played their average min/g going up against Shaq? That means more minutes played by opposing teams' reserve Cs rather than their starting Cs. You think that might help win a lot of games?

Plus I want a C that dominates on both offense and defense. Prime Shaq was a very good defensive C bordering on excellent. A step below Olajuwon, DRob, Ben Wallace, Mutombo. He was better on offense than Jokic, and a far far better defender than Jokic.

Again - look at the low opposing team 2pt FG% Shaq's teams allowed, over long stretches of time.

Lastly, Jokic's decade in the league he played just 32 min/g. Shaq's first decade in the league he played 38 min/g. Give me Shaq's defense for 38 min/g over Jokic's offense for 32 min/g all day every day. No second thought about it.

That clear enough for you?

It's clear. Thank you. But you only made two points about Shaq's defense.

Your points about Shaq's offense are fine with me. I think an argument can be made either way. I happen to prefer Jokic on offense. But I understand your love of foul drawing and offensive rebounding. These are important factors and Shaq is a monster in these areas.

Let's focus on the points that you feel make Shaq a more valuable defensive player than Jokic is as an offensive player.

I don't know how to check opponent 2pt FG% during the time Shaq was on the floor. If this was a drastic change then yes, that's a measure of Shaq's defensive impact. But is this enough to consider his defensive impact all-time great? If it were, I would think more people would opine on Shaq being one of the great defenders of his era. But you never hear that. My eyes also did not see that. They saw a player who was an asset defensively on the interior, but who had stamina issues (in LA) and who had trouble guarding the pick-n-roll and 3pters. I don't see how this puts him in the echelon of defender that makes his defense more impactful than Jokic's offense.

The point about minutes is solid, but that is a product of how rosters are managed in the modern era. I understand getting 6 extra minutes is important, but I really doubt Shaq - whose conditioning was often a question mark - would be playing the minutes he played in the 90s if he played today. Further, I doubt Shaq would average more minutes per game than Jokic if they played in the same era.

So, if Shaq was playing 32 minutes per game with great 2pt% interior defense, but with the same stamina issues, PnR issues, 3-pt shot issues... you see this player's defense as more impactful than Jokic's offense? I still, really really don't see it. So yeah, I need more. The player I am describing above would struggle to make it in the L if his only asset was his defense. (And again, that is what I am trying to single out here: you said Shaq's defense ALONE is better than Jokic's offense alone).