Finals MVP: Should be it changed to Playoff MVP

Sedale Threatt · Post #61 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:34 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Same thing in 1988. Worthy averaged more and shot better and he had that triple double in game 7 of 36/16/10.

You do realized that Magic set him up for most of those shots and gave him open looks.

It's still pretty notable that, in the seventh game of a championship series, James tripled his career rebound and assist averages while notching the only triple double of his career. He certainly deserved that award.

richboy · Post #62 » by **richboy** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:09 pm

Really? That's why Shaq CLEARLY outplayed him in the Sac series (including back-to-back 40+/20+ games, which is unheard of) and played nearly as well in the SA series. LMAO @ "Kobe was the dominate (sic) player against the Kings and Spurs."

Eyes checked and still giving the nod to Kobe.

Actually, only Shaq was doubled for most of that series. Kobe got assists because he penetrated against Porter and Daniels' single coverage and dumped it off for guaranteed finishes to Shaq when DRob/Duncan came over to help (and when they didn't, because they were afraid of Shaq, he finished; this is why this series is one of only 3 or 4 series in Kobe's career that he's shot over 50% in).

Again, Shaq outplayed Kobe in 3 of 4 series that postseason, so if there was a "playoff MVP," it would have went to Shaq. Even if you think the Portland series was even, then we have the SA series where Kobe outplayed Shaq by perhaps 5-10%; that's countered by the Sac series where Shaq outplayed Kobe by at least 25% (if not more), and the NJ series, where Shaq dominated Kobe.

Grab a clue, Kobe fans.

Please I've never seen the Spurs double Shaq consistently. The Spurs had to send help to Kobe that year. They had no one that could guard him. He averaged almost 40 points per game against the Spurs during the regular season. The Spurs couldn't keep Bryant out of the paint. He hit was driving and dishing as good as anytime in his career.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF_LSQ50BWk

One of the top things Popavich says during the press conference. WE HAD NO ANSWER FOR KOBE. He said it point blank. If we sent someone to help on Kobe he find Fisher for open 3. If we didn't send anyone he scored himself. POP SAYS "KOBE WAS A IMPOSSIBLE MATCHUP FOR US". That entire press conference is pretty much all about Kobe.

Those assist are not going down to Shaq. Matter of fact even Shaq said it.

"That's where I've been trying to get him all year," O'Neal said. "He's been getting his points, getting everybody involved, drawing and kicking, doing the right things. Somebody once said the mark of a great player is how you make the other players around you play. I now can truly say that Kobe Bryant is the best player in this league."

SAN ANTONIO (AP) -- Shaquille O'Neal has been convinced: Kobe Bryant is the best.

"I told Kobe that he was my idol," O'Neal said. "I'm serious. He's playing phenomenal. I think he's the best player in the league, by far."

With 93 points in consecutive games, Bryant was drawing a comparison with the greatest big-game player ever -- Michael Jordan.

Horace Grant kept referring to Bryant as "No. 23," the number Jordan wore. It wasn't a mistake.

"I knew what I was saying," Grant said.

Now if you concede he was best player against the Spurs then we can talk about the Kings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpArN4LbTI0

Now this is closer. I don't think the Spur series is even a discussion. The King series is tough because Shaq was the man in game 1 and 2 but Kobe was the guy in 3 and 4. I would give Kobe the advantage though because his tough games came on the road. He was needed because Shaq was in foul trouble in both of those road games. He went off second half game 3 and was ridiculous in game 4. Plus Kobe went off in the third quarter in both game 1 and 2. I think if a MVP was voted for that series it likely would have been Kobe by series end. The saying goes a series doesn't start till a team wins on the road. The two big road wins Shaq was in foul trouble.

If there was a series MVP I say Kobe wins 2. I'm not sure about the Blazer series. Kobe's numbers look better. Sorry but if Shaq shoots 48% in a series and Kobe shoots 48% then Kobe going to produce more because of the 3 point shot. Add in the assist and I not sure if Shaq can be awarded Series MVP.

If there is a playoff MVP IMO it should go to Kobe. Mainly because that year only the Spurs had a real shot at beating the Lakers. Kobe pretty much dominated that series and the Lakers biggest challenge for a title.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #63 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:52 pm

Arguing with Jordan23Forever is pointless because he's looks at things through a hate filtered lens. Ask Blazer, King, or Spur fans who was the playoff MVP in 01'. In no way does it diminish what Shaq did, or Fisher for that matter who was lights out. Kobe was not only putting up dominant numbers, he was facilitating the entire offense, LA's top defender, and hit big shot after big shot in the 2nd halves of games to secure wins.

Hell, I agree with James Worhty that there shouldn't even be MVPs because they only take away from the team accomplishment. Kobe & Shaq were like Magic & Kareem, Montana & Rice, Ben & Jerry. The fact that people want to say "that player sucks and road so and so's coattails to a ring" is the kind of thing that has killed NBA fan culture. We used to celebrate the game and it's history. Now we just slam every player outside our favorite team and discredit their acheivements. LOL, and people wonder why the NBA has fallen off so much.

Blame Rasho · Post #64 » by **Blame Rasho** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:27 pm

You know the best way to win an arguement.... to make up things...

Mainly because that year only the Spurs had a real shot at beating the Lakers.

Yes... this was the year that Derek Anderson, our 2nd leading scorer was taken out in the series before. We had Antonio Daniels, a point guard guarding Kobe... yet we had a real shot of beating the Lakers?

Fine you believe Kobe was the MVP but don't make up things and insult my knowledge of what happened.

The Lakers beat us because they had two all NBA first team players, while we just had one... and no one else.

It is amazing where people will go to try and prove their* point of view is correct.

sp6r=underrated · Post #65 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:03 pm

Blame Rasho wrote:You know the best way to win an arguement.... to make up things...

Mainly because that year only the Spurs had a real shot at beating the Lakers.

Yes... this was the year that Derek Anderson, our 2nd leading scorer was taken out in the series before. We had Antonio Daniels, a point guard guarding Kobe... yet we had a real shot of beating the Lakers?

Fine you believe Kobe was the MVP but don't make up things and insult my knowledge of what happened.

The Lakers beat us because they had two all NBA first team players, while we just had one... and no one else.

It is amazing the where people will go to try and prove their their point of view is correct.

BS, your forgetting Terry Porter, he was an All-Star*.

* In 1993

richboy · Post #66 » by **richboy** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:09 pm

Blame Rasho wrote:You know the best way to win an arguement.... to make up things...

Mainly because that year only the Spurs had a real shot at beating the Lakers.

Yes... this was the year that Derek Anderson, our 2nd leading scorer was taken out in the series before. We had Antonio Daniels, a point guard guarding Kobe... yet we had a real shot of beating the Lakers?

Fine you believe Kobe was the MVP but don't make up things and insult my knowledge of what happened.

The Lakers beat us because they had two all NBA first team players, while we just had one... and no one else.

It is amazing where people will go to try and prove their* point of view is correct.

Derek Anderson couldn't guard Kobe either. Kobe dominated the Spurs all year that season.

Yes the Spurs were the only team that had a realistic shot to beat the Lakers that year. They had the best record in the league. They had Tim Duncan who was second in the MVP that year. They won the season series against the Lakers. David Robinson was still a productive player. Matter of fact his PER was almost equal to TD. DR averaged 17 12 and 3 in the playoffs.

Blame Rasho · Post #67 » by **Blame Rasho** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:18 pm

Funny how people change their arrangements over the years... how many Magic fans said that the Spurs had no chance to beat the Lakers and that is why Duncan was going to the Magic to be with T-mac. Now all of a sudden they had a realistic shot to beat the Lakers in retrospect vs the best team of the generation? It is foolish to argue with a fool...

Post #68 » by **semi-sentient** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:30 pm

I would be all for a "Playoff MVP" award, but a requirement has to be that the player receiving it is on the team that wins the championship.

richboy · Post #69 » by **richboy** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:37 pm

I have no clue what you talking about or who you talking about. Really that post is foolish. Its like you had a conversation with a Magic fan some years ago and decided now to start venting.

Actually if Duncan went to Orlando it be to play with Grant Hill. If Duncan went to Orlando Tmac likely doesn't sign with the Magic. Although he says he would have signed for the min. I have my doubts though.

You can make a case that the Spurs had more talent then when they beat the Lakers a couple of years later. If not it was pretty close. Parker was the second best player and he was a inconsistent second year player. Manu was a rookie who didn't play a lot and wasn't that great when he did play. DR was at the end of his career.

Jordan23Forever · Post #70 » by **Jordan23Forever** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:18 am

LMAO @ RealGM analyst and richboy -- two of the biggest Kobe groupies on the site -- calling me biased when virtually ever non-Kobe fan poster agrees with me. Kobe was indispensable, particularly that postseason, but better or more valuable than Shaq he was not.

Again, Shaq outplayed Kobe in 3 out of the 4 series that year, including two series by DECISIVE margins How that makes Kobe the "playoff MVP" is beyond me, and beyond anyone who's not beholden to the cult of Kobe, really.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #71 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:43 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:LMAO @ RealGM analyst and richboy -- two of the biggest Kobe groupies on the site -- calling me biased when virtually ever non-Kobe fan poster agrees with me. Kobe was indispensable, particularly that postseason, but better or more valuable than Shaq he was not.

Again, Shaq outplayed Kobe in 3 out of the 4 series that year, including two series by DECISIVE margins How that makes Kobe the "playoff MVP" is beyond me, and beyond anyone who's not beholden to the cult of Kobe, really.

Shaq in his OWN words said Kobe was the best player those playoffs. Give it up dude. Did you actually watch the 2001 playoffs? I'm done with this topic because it has drifted across the barrier into the opposite lane, and I can see a Mod driving a truck full of locks headed straight for us.

Anyway, I bumped into Kobe the other day at Staples and he told me go head and switch my posting style up, and if Jordan23Forever hates then let him hate, and watch the titles pile up.

CHIMOCHI · Post #72 » by **CHIMOCHI** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:48 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:LMAO @ RealGM analyst and richboy -- two of the biggest Kobe groupies on the site -- calling me biased when virtually ever non-Kobe fan poster agrees with me. Kobe was indispensable, particularly that postseason, but better or more valuable than Shaq he was not.

Again, Shaq outplayed Kobe in 3 out of the 4 series that year, including two series by DECISIVE margins How that makes Kobe the "playoff MVP" is beyond me, and beyond anyone who's not beholden to the cult of Kobe, really.

Jordan23Forever speaks the truth

richboy · Post #73 » by **richboy** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:03 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:LMAO @ RealGM analyst and richboy -- two of the biggest Kobe groupies on the site -- calling me biased when virtually ever non-Kobe fan poster agrees with me. Kobe was indispensable, particularly that postseason, but better or more valuable than Shaq he was not.

Again, Shaq outplayed Kobe in 3 out of the 4 series that year, including two series by DECISIVE margins How that makes Kobe the "playoff MVP" is beyond me, and beyond anyone who's not beholden to the cult of Kobe, really.

I think you lost your analyst the second you gave Shaq all the credit for Kobe assist. Dang you didn't even want to give him the MVP for the Spur series. A series that even Pop credited to Kobe. How can I take anything you say seriously. Kobe could easily have received MVP of the Kings series. Especially since Shaq was in foul trouble for 2 of the biggest games of the series. I'm no Kobe homer. Your definitely a Kobe hater though.

guy1 · Post #74 » by **guy1** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:09 am

RealGM Analyst wrote:Anyway, I bumped into Kobe the other day at Staples and he told me go head and switch my posting style up, and if Jordan23Forever hates then let him hate, and watch the titles pile up.

LOL what the hell is this? You're giving Kobe a bad name.

Post #75 » by **LLcoleJ** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:20 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:LMAO @ RealGM analyst and richboy -- two of the biggest Kobe groupies on the site -- calling me biased when virtually ever non-Kobe fan poster agrees with me. Kobe was indispensable, particularly that postseason, but better or more valuable than Shaq he was not.

Again, Shaq outplayed Kobe in 3 out of the 4 series that year, including two series by DECISIVE margins How that makes Kobe the "playoff MVP" is beyond me, and beyond anyone who's not beholden to the cult of Kobe, really.

I am a huge Laker-Shaq Homer. Its obvious that Shaq was the engine that kept the Lakers going. What's funny is you are trying to compare those stats. So, Kobe needed to hit Prime-Shaq numbers? what 13 boards... shoot 55-65%?

Your agenda is so obvious. You only post about 2 things on Realgm. Jordan and Kobe. Do you have a favorite team ?

As much as I love(d) Shaq, Kobe was huge for us not in specific series, per se. huge games within those series's. As great as Shaq was, he wasn't a closer, he didn't hit the big jump shot, 3 point shot, Free throw, defensive assignment then Kobe did at times.

Shaq was without a doubt the reason the Lakers won. However, games could have been lost and subsequent series's if not for the effort of both players and both players being valuable.

LOL at you continued reference to Shaq- outplaying Kobe. umm duh. Prime Shaq is going to put up big numbers that wing players just can't touch. That does not mean that Kobe was not valuable to the success of the Lakers.

I won't even get into Kobe carrying us in the reg. season to give us home court while Shaq was taking " company time off"

Jordan23Forever · Post #76 » by **Jordan23Forever** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:04 am

Phil_2.0 wrote:LOL at you continued reference to Shaq- outplaying Kobe. umm duh.

Obviously it's too much for some to grasp, because usually when one player outplays another player, that player is more valuable. Yet all I hear is obfuscation and equivocation from Kobe fans.

Prime Shaq is going to put up big numbers that wing players just can't touch.

Correction: Kobe can't, and couldn't, touch them. If Kobe played as well as he did in the Spurs series in every series, he likely would have outplayed Shaq in several series from '00-'02. But he didn't. That's on Kobe, though, not on all other wing players.

That does not mean that Kobe was not valuable to the success of the Lakers.

Who said he wasn't valuable? I even used the word "indispensable," for crying out loud. But you have people trying to act like he was more valuable than Shaq, when it's clear that he wasn't.

I won't even get into Kobe carrying us in the reg. season to give us home court while Shaq was taking " company time off"

Good, because then I won't have to get into Kobe not seeing a double team before 2003 or 2004, Shaq getting teams in constant foul trouble, sucking in defenses, deterring all sorts of penetration (it's no coincidence that Kobe was much more aggressive on the perimeter when Shaq was around, since he could afford to be), and preventing help defense/shotblocks on teammates' penetration.

Besides, I'm not sure where you're coming from with that, because Shaq played more games in 2001 (74) than Kobe did (68). And he had a better record in games Kobe didn't play in than vice versa.

ronnymac2 · Post #77 » by **ronnymac2** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:26 am

^^^^Kobe saw double teams. C'mon....I know you said Kobe was very important and whatnot, but you're still not giving him enough credit. He did draw doubles. Not like Shaq did (and that's really a consequence of Shaq being a big, so when he gets delivered the ball by the pass, there is super-fast penetration of the defense, and deep penetration....lol....thus throwing a defense off moreso than a perimeter player can). Plus, Shaq was better and the first option. But his job was made easier by Kobe seeing double teams, too. They played off each other.

Dominant big plus dominant, dynamic guard is the best 1-2 combo to have imo because they can help each other out the most and can play off each other so well; it's a balanced duo.

Post #78 » by **LLcoleJ** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:53 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:
Obviously it's too much for some to grasp, because usually when one player outplays another player, that player is more valuable. Yet all I hear is obfuscation and equivocation from Kobe fans.

I am a Laker fan. I can see the stats, and have said Shaq was the motor of that team. Again, I am a big Shaq-Laker fan. You want to paint me in your little "Kobe fan box". I am a Laker fan, and will maintain I have spent more time watching them than you.

Correction: Kobe can't, and couldn't, touch them. If Kobe played as well as he did in the Spurs series in every series, he likely would have outplayed Shaq in several series from '00-'02. But he didn't. That's on Kobe, though, not on all other wing players.

What? Man, if you think that anyone thinks that Kobe could have "out played' and " out stated" prime Shaq, then you are really reaching. I think what people are saying. Is he had games that won us playoff series , regardless of what Shaq put up. I would say that's valuable.

Who said he wasn't valuable? I even used the word "indispensable," for crying out loud. But you have people trying to act like he was more valuable than Shaq, when it's clear that he wasn't.

He was valuable enough that regardless of how sick Shaq's numbers were, we wouldnt have won without Kobe. That means, he did things on the court when Shaq couldnt. I would say both were pretty valuable. Your " indispesnable" is a passive aggressive way to continue to slight Kobe.

I don't care much about this topic. Give the Playoffs MVP to travis Knight for all I care. The Lakers won due to the players, most notably Shaq and Kobe, that's good enough for me.
I am just tired of your constant hate and I laugh at you trying to tell me how it is, about the Lakers.

Good, because then I won't have to get into Kobe not seeing a double team before 2003 or 2004, Shaq getting teams in constant foul trouble, sucking in defenses, deterring all sorts of penetration (it's no coincidence that Kobe was much more aggressive on the perimeter when Shaq was around, since he could afford to be), and preventing help defense/shotblocks on teammates' penetration.

Besides, I'm not sure where you're coming from with that, because Shaq played more games in 2001 (74) than Kobe did (68). And he had a better record in games Kobe didn't play in than vice versa.

Exhibit 909A

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Some players live for it, and he's one of those players," Webber said. "That team wouldn't be the team that it is without him. Believe that."

about Kobe after unsuccessfully able to get past the Lakers.

Jordan23Forever · Post #79 » by **Jordan23Forever** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:30 am

Phil_2.0 wrote:He was valuable enough that regardless of how sick Shaq's numbers were, we wouldnt have won without Kobe.

No question. But that doesn't make him MORE valuable than Shaq, which is what this discussion is about. Here's a simple question for you:

Unless you believe that Kobe was equally as valuable as, or more valuable than, Shaq that postseason, then why are you arguing with me, since that's all I've claimed? And if you do believe that to be the case, then please state so clearly. No more obfuscation, no more nonsense.

I have made one claim herein: that Shaq was more valuable throughout the 2001 playoffs than Kobe was. Not that Kobe wasn't valuable, or even incredibly valuable -- I never said any such thing. If you disagree with my statement, say so. Man up and stop playing games, Phil 2.0.

Post #80 » by **LLcoleJ** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:28 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:
Phil_2.0 wrote:He was valuable enough that regardless of how sick Shaq's numbers were, we wouldnt have won without Kobe.

No question. But that doesn't make him MORE valuable than Shaq, which is what this discussion is about. Here's a simple question for you:

Unless you believe that Kobe was equally as valuable as, or more valuable than, Shaq that postseason, then why are you arguing with me, since that's all I've claimed? And if you do believe that to be the case, then please state so clearly. No more obfuscation, no more nonsense.

I have made one claim herein: that Shaq was more valuable throughout the 2001 playoffs than Kobe was. Not that Kobe wasn't valuable, or even incredibly valuable -- I never said any such thing. If you disagree with my statement, say so. Man up and stop playing games, Phil 2.0.

I am playing games?

You can make a case that Kobe during the Lakers 3peat was MORE valuable at times in the playoffs that helped the Lakers win rings. Overall, I have never said that Shaq wasn't the man. Even in seriess where Shaq's numbers were monster, they would have went for not, had it not been for that one or two valuable games Kobe had that sealed the deal.

I have made no claim that Kobe was overall better than Shaq. I do know that I have watched every Laker playoff game over the past 10 ( 25) years. And missed about 5 reg. season game during that span. It's not against the "code" to recognize that even if a player doesn't match a player like " prime shaq" in numbers wise wasn't more valuable at games that lead to series wins.

I have made claims against you that you only look to diminish Kobe at every turn. It shouldnt bother you if someone talks good about Kobe. Yet is does, and you label them " Kobe Fans" or "Kobe Cult" .. you are the one playing games.

You simply can't let Laker fans like Kobe. You won't allow your self the opportunity to have a discussion with a fan who supports Kobe. Even if he is not saying.. Kobe is better than MJ or Kobe outplayed Shaq. You are stuck on your same agenda = games.

lol. I am a Laker fan who has watched nearly every Laker game that Shaq and Kobe played together. I support both laker players and the teams overall ability to win rings.

Yet, you. Who either talks about how great Jordan is ( he is ) or you always and I mean always discredit Kobe. Is doing what? Games.

Would you support changing the finals MVP to playoff MVP?