NBA Trade Thread #11

[Dan Z]

So the front office should have checked RealGM and ignored what the actual medical experts were saying? Sure they were consulting with top doctors who actually know a lot more than laymen level knowledge about the injury, looking at X Rays, MRI's etc. Actual access to the medical info on Lonzo's specific injury. He is in fact back playing, right? Took longer than expected. Even though most of the people were actually saying he'd never be healthy, not that he would be out for a long period of time. Tons of conversation about medical retirement, IIRC. Be specific when you say "a long time". One year wouldn't have been that bad. Two years, we might still have Debo and look like a decent team. It's still not certain how healthy he'll be. But hindsight is always 20/20 and specifically accurate. Precognition, not so much.

Easy for fans to make predictive guesses based on extremely limited information, no cost if they're wrong. They don't have the same facts on hand that we do, so their decision will be different. What could they realistically have gotten for an injured Ball who might never play again anyway? Use draft picks to move him for expirings? The earlier we do it, the higher the cost, more years left on contract. Cost at least a first, so maybe no Matas right now but we'd have cash to re-sign Debo last summer and no Ball either. We were a mid-team for years, but the worst is almost over and it didn't cost us picks to clear up.

A good GM would accept that Lonzo isn't coming back for awhile and pivot in a new direction. Even if Lonzo came back a year after he got injured it would take him at least a year (or most of the year) to shake off the rust.

Continuing with Zack/DDR/Vuc, while waiting for Lonzo, didn't work and its no surprise.

Easy to say. Much harder to do. Who are you trading an injured, may never play again player with 3 yrs/60 mill left on their contract? You can't possibly think we would not have had to attach first round picks, maybe 2-3, just for expirings. We certainly weren't getting any players to actually help this team for Ball. Then you give up those picks and Lonzo comes back like multiple doctors said he would. Other team has healthy Ball and our picks, and we have the probable bad contract we had to swallow, along with the expirings. They definitely weren't doing it year 1. Say they do it year 2, give up 2 firsts and Ball, get some crap player and expirings, still probably no immediate cap space. Year 3, we're able to add $10-$20 mill in players to Lavine, Derozan, and Vuc. Are we a great team now? Because we gave up picks to get to this team.

EVERYBODY saying Zach/Debo/Vuc was not a good fit, but because it worked with Ball, they were going to "retool" and find someone else like Ball with that $20 mill?? In all likelihood, not too many players besides Ball could make that team work, he's kind of unique. Not easy to replace a 6'6" high BBall IQ, playmaking, rebounding defensive 3pt shooting PG. We certainly wouldn't be much better than we were anyway, let's not forget Pat and Lavine missed a lot of the last few years too. Keep talking about retooling like it wouldn't have cost picks to move Ball before this year. Do you really think AK didn't want to use picks and move Ball to improve the team and save his job? I'm GLAD they didn't let him. We'd have damn near exactly the same team we have now, and Debo gets re-signed because we won 5 more games with the added "retool" player.

Trading our future for short term gains is how we got here in the first place (picks for Debo and Vuc).

Im not suggesting they trade Lonzo during that time (he had no trade value). Im suggesting moving on from Zach/DDR/Vuc because it wasnt working. You can see how it fell apart when Lonzo went down and then how bad they were the first part of the next season.

[Infinity2152]

A good GM would accept that Lonzo isn't coming back for awhile and pivot in a new direction. Even if Lonzo came back a year after he got injured it would take him at least a year (or most of the year) to shake off the rust.

Continuing with Zack/DDR/Vuc, while waiting for Lonzo, didn't work and its no surprise.

Easy to say. Much harder to do. Who are you trading an injured, may never play again player with 3 yrs/60 mill left on their contract? You can't possibly think we would not have had to attach first round picks, maybe 2-3, just for expirings. We certainly weren't getting any players to actually help this team for Ball. Then you give up those picks and Lonzo comes back like multiple doctors said he would. Other team has healthy Ball and our picks, and we have the probable bad contract we had to swallow, along with the expirings. They definitely weren't doing it year 1. Say they do it year 2, give up 2 firsts and Ball, get some crap player and expirings, still probably no immediate cap space. Year 3, we're able to add $10-$20 mill in players to Lavine, Derozan, and Vuc. Are we a great team now? Because we gave up picks to get to this team.

EVERYBODY saying Zach/Debo/Vuc was not a good fit, but because it worked with Ball, they were going to "retool" and find someone else like Ball with that $20 mill?? In all likelihood, not too many players besides Ball could make that team work, he's kind of unique. Not easy to replace a 6'6" high BBall IQ, playmaking, rebounding defensive 3pt shooting PG. We certainly wouldn't be much better than we were anyway, let's not forget Pat and Lavine missed a lot of the last few years too. Keep talking about retooling like it wouldn't have cost picks to move Ball before this year. Do you really think AK didn't want to use picks and move Ball to improve the team and save his job? I'm GLAD they didn't let him. We'd have damn near exactly the same team we have now, and Debo gets re-signed because we won 5 more games with the added "retool" player.

Trading our future for short term gains is how we got here in the first place (picks for Debo and Vuc).

Im not suggesting they trade Lonzo during that time (he had no trade value). Im suggesting moving on from Zach/DDR/Vuc because it wasnt working. You can see how it fell apart when Lonzo went down and then how bad they were the first part of the next season.

Again, sounds good in theory. Assuming they were absolutely sure Lonzo wasn't coming back, who are they trading? They just added Derozan and Vuc and loved Lavine. Vuc is probably at his highest trade value since he's been here and we're struggling to trade him for value. Doubt Derozan had a lot of trade value, maybe some, but Lavine got hurt, no way they're trading him at that time. We've been struggling to get value for Lavine and his value probably increases as his contract shortens. The same weaknesses we see that make us want to trade them, people aren't just giving us young two-way players for them. Right now, The Pels are having trouble getting value for Ingram, Denver for MPJ, and the Jazz put Markannen on the market and couldn't get what they wanted. Selling teams rarely get equal value, most value usually goes to the buying team, unless there's a big market for the players or their contracts are great. I think in most scenarios, even with a re-tool, we're not far from where we are now. We still don't have a 1A.

It costs picks to add Debo and Vuc. They probably weren't getting equivalent picks back. With 20/20 hindsight it looks obvious, but the chance that Lonzo comes back makes it a much more difficult decision. Again, would it have made much of a difference. I still don't think they get a player better than Lavine trading Derozan or Vuc, which is a big need. One of them is most likely split into two more role players. We might win 5 more games or the exact same number. Still low ceiling team. If it's Lavine traded, have little doubt we're playing this year with Debo as our best player on a new contract.

Ball was injured 2021-2022 season. So the season he's missed are 2022-2023 and 2023-2024. 2023-2024 Zach played 25 games and Pat played 43, started 30. We weren't winning much with a Debo or Vuc replacement anyway. So basically one year wasted. And there was definitely hope Ball would be back to start 2022. So any retool wouldn't have happened till the middle of 2022 season in the first place.

[Dan Z]

Easy to say. Much harder to do. Who are you trading an injured, may never play again player with 3 yrs/60 mill left on their contract? You can't possibly think we would not have had to attach first round picks, maybe 2-3, just for expirings. We certainly weren't getting any players to actually help this team for Ball. Then you give up those picks and Lonzo comes back like multiple doctors said he would. Other team has healthy Ball and our picks, and we have the probable bad contract we had to swallow, along with the expirings. They definitely weren't doing it year 1. Say they do it year 2, give up 2 firsts and Ball, get some crap player and expirings, still probably no immediate cap space. Year 3, we're able to add $10-$20 mill in players to Lavine, Derozan, and Vuc. Are we a great team now? Because we gave up picks to get to this team.

EVERYBODY saying Zach/Debo/Vuc was not a good fit, but because it worked with Ball, they were going to "retool" and find someone else like Ball with that $20 mill?? In all likelihood, not too many players besides Ball could make that team work, he's kind of unique. Not easy to replace a 6'6" high BBall IQ, playmaking, rebounding defensive 3pt shooting PG. We certainly wouldn't be much better than we were anyway, let's not forget Pat and Lavine missed a lot of the last few years too. Keep talking about retooling like it wouldn't have cost picks to move Ball before this year. Do you really think AK didn't want to use picks and move Ball to improve the team and save his job? I'm GLAD they didn't let him. We'd have damn near exactly the same team we have now, and Debo gets re-signed because we won 5 more games with the added "retool" player.

Trading our future for short term gains is how we got here in the first place (picks for Debo and Vuc).

Im not suggesting they trade Lonzo during that time (he had no trade value). Im suggesting moving on from Zach/DDR/Vuc because it wasnt working. You can see how it fell apart when Lonzo went down and then how bad they were the first part of the next season.

Again, sounds good in theory. Assuming they were absolutely sure Lonzo wasn't coming back, who are they trading? They just added Derozan and Vuc and loved Lavine. Vuc is probably at his highest trade value since he's been here and we're struggling to trade him for value. Doubt Derozan had a lot of trade value, maybe some, but Lavine got hurt, no way they're trading him at that time. We've been struggling to get value for Lavine and his value probably increases as his contract shortens. The same weaknesses we see that make us want to trade them, people aren't just giving us young two-way players for them. Right now, The Pels are having trouble getting value for Ingram, Denver for MPJ, and the Jazz put Markannen on the market and couldn't get what they wanted. Selling teams rarely get equal value, most value usually goes to the buying team, unless there's a big market for the players or their contracts are great. I think in most scenarios, even with a re-tool, we're not far from where we are now. We still don't have a 1A.

It costs picks to add Debo and Vuc. They probably weren't getting equivalent picks back. With 20/20 hindsight it looks obvious, but the chance that Lonzo comes back makes it a much more difficult decision. Again, would it have made much of a difference. I still don't think they get a player better than Lavine trading Derozan or Vuc, which is a big need. One of them is most likely split into two more role players. We might win 5 more games or the exact same number. Still low ceiling team. If it's Lavine traded, have little doubt we're playing this year with Debo as our best player on a new contract.

Sometimes you have to take two steps back to go one step forward. LIke I said it wasn't working with Zach/DDR/Vuc and it didn't matter if Lonzo came back in a year or two years. It still wasn't going to work (and currently isn't working).

I bet DDR was worth more in 2022, but that doesn't matter because it's not about maximizing his value, it's about moving on to the next iteration of the team. Same with Zach (whose current contract didn't start until the 2022-23 season, a half year before Lonzo's injury).

[Infinity2152]

Ball was injured 2021-2022 season. They would have had to IMMEDIATELY pivot, like that summer, with the doctors saying Ball would be back to start 2022. What exactly would you expect a pivot to produce, without being able to move Lonzo's contract. Trade Vuc or Debo for who? Who could they possibly have been traded for to make this team much different than it is now? Again, Zach and Pat were both out most of 2023-2024 season, so that season was going to be a loser regardless. Do you really think Vuc had more trade value then, shooting worse and with more years left on his contract? There's a reason Ben Simmons is still on the Nets, and a reason they're still mid. You don't just shuffle and trade bad fitting overpaid players and make up for long term injuries to big money, crucial to the team players. We could have gotten more value for Derozan than we did, but we would have absolutely sucked last year with Lavine out. Who knows what our record would have been last year if Pat and Lavine are both healthy? Again, 20/20 hindsight. The season sucked with multiple injuries, so we should have made a move the season before. Or maybe with healthy Zach and Pat, they win 6 more games, get a better seed and make it to the conference Finals with some luck.

Everybody's Nostradamus now. Probably would have said last year Ball will never play for us. People predicting Pat and Giddey will suck and not be worth their contracts. Was arguing with people all summer that Vuc's shooting was apt to go up this year, he shoots better every other year, got plenty of laughs. How many games will Ball play next year? Guess they predicted Pat and Lavine would miss most of last year. Butterfly effect, one small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large changes in a later state. It's impossible to say whether any of those changes result in us having a better team right now. So let it go. Many of those changes result in us not having Matas or Giddey, for instance. Who knows how good they'll be?

[Dan Z]

Ball was injured 2021-2022 season. They would have had to IMMEDIATELY pivot, like that summer, with the doctors saying Ball would be back to start 2022. What exactly would you expect a pivot to produce, without being able to move Lonzo's contract. Trade Vuc or Debo for who? Who could they possibly have been traded for to make this team much different than it is now? Again, Zach and Pat were both out most of 2023-2024 season, so that season was going to be a loser regardless. Do you really think Vuc had more trade value then, shooting worse and with more years left on his contract? There's a reason Ben Simmons is still on the Nets, and a reason they're still mid. You don't just shuffle and trade bad fitting overpaid players and make up for long term injuries to big money, crucial to the team players. We could have gotten more value for Derozan than we did, but we would have absolutely sucked last year with Lavine out. Who knows what our record would have been last year if Pat and Lavine are both healthy? Again, 20/20 hindsight. The season sucked with multiple injuries, so we should have made a move the season before. Or maybe with healthy Zach and Pat, they win 6 more games, get a better seed and make it to the conference Finals with some luck.

Everybody's Nostradamus now. Probably would have said last year Ball will never play for us. People predicting Pat and Giddey will suck and not be worth their contracts. Was arguing with people all summer that Vuc's shooting was apt to go up this year, he shoots better every other year, got plenty of laughs. How many games will Ball play next year? Guess they predicted Pat and Lavine would miss most of last year. Butterfly effect, one small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large changes in a later state. It's impossible to say whether any of those changes result in us having a better team right now. So let it go. Many of those changes result in us not having Matas or Giddey, for instance. Who knows how good they'll be?

It wasnt working and like I said once Lonzo went down you could see that to end the season and into the next one.

It wouldn't be about maximizing the value of anyone, its about moving on. They move on after Lonzo gets hurt (that season or the next one) and then they might be in a better position now.

Was last season or the year before that memorable for you? It wasn't for me. It was a waste of time. Move on and plan for the future.

[Dan Z]

Ball was injured 2021-2022 season. They would have had to IMMEDIATELY pivot, like that summer, with the doctors saying Ball would be back to start 2022. What exactly would you expect a pivot to produce, without being able to move Lonzo's contract. Trade Vuc or Debo for who? Who could they possibly have been traded for to make this team much different than it is now? Again, Zach and Pat were both out most of 2023-2024 season, so that season was going to be a loser regardless. Do you really think Vuc had more trade value then, shooting worse and with more years left on his contract? There's a reason Ben Simmons is still on the Nets, and a reason they're still mid. You don't just shuffle and trade bad fitting overpaid players and make up for long term injuries to big money, crucial to the team players. We could have gotten more value for Derozan than we did, but we would have absolutely sucked last year with Lavine out. Who knows what our record would have been last year if Pat and Lavine are both healthy? Again, 20/20 hindsight. The season sucked with multiple injuries, so we should have made a move the season before. Or maybe with healthy Zach and Pat, they win 6 more games, get a better seed and make it to the conference Finals with some luck.

Everybody's Nostradamus now. Probably would have said last year Ball will never play for us. People predicting Pat and Giddey will suck and not be worth their contracts. Was arguing with people all summer that Vuc's shooting was apt to go up this year, he shoots better every other year, got plenty of laughs. How many games will Ball play next year? Guess they predicted Pat and Lavine would miss most of last year. Butterfly effect, one small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large changes in a later state. It's impossible to say whether any of those changes result in us having a better team right now. So let it go. Many of those changes result in us not having Matas or Giddey, for instance. Who knows how good they'll be?

Also, I'm not the only person who said this at that time. You can look up posts on RealGM.

[Infinity2152]

Again, not saying we shouldn't have made moves. A lot of people wanted to move on from Ball, very true. Pretty clearly AK was hired with a mandate to win now. No indication that mandate changes as soon as Ball goes down. Judging the decision now that you know Ball will be injured for three years is an unfair advantage. Turns a decision they may have been 40/60 on to 100/0 on the retool side. They also had a recent #4 pick I'm sure they were hoping would be a star. They draft Haliburton, we're not having this discussion.

No guarantees the team is any better right now, so don't see the point of keep looking back on what maybe could have happened. Don't think we get great returns in those trades. We're where we are right now. Forget the last two seasons. We have what we have: Zach and Vuc shooting career highs and maybe more tradeable than the last two years with shorter contracts, Matas, Giddey, Pat, Coby, Ayo, Smith, a lot of young talent on good contracts mostly. Most of our picks. Ball about to expire. Derozan's contract gone. We're way better off than two years ago, imo. We could have a ton of cap flexibility this summer, a lot of tradeable young players, not to mention our first-round draft pick this summer. Let's look forward.

[Dan Z]

Again, not saying we shouldn't have made moves. A lot of people wanted to move on from Ball, very true. Pretty clearly AK was hired with a mandate to win now. No indication that mandate changes as soon as Ball goes down. Judging the decision now that you know Ball will be injured for three years is an unfair advantage. Turns a decision they may have been 40/60 on to 100/0 on the retool side. And no guarantees the team is any better right now, so don't see the point of keep looking back on what maybe could have happened. Don't think we get great returns in those trades. We're where we are right now. Forget the last two seasons. We have what we have: Zach and Vuc shooting career highs and maybe more tradeable than the last two years with shorter contracts, Matas, Giddey, Pat, Coby, Ayo, Smith, a lot of young talent on good contracts mostly. Most of our picks. Ball about to expire. Derozan's contract gone. We're way better off than two years ago, imo. We could have a ton of cap flexibility this summer, a lot of tradeable young players, not to mention our first round draft pick this summer. Let's look forward.

Then the problem is ownership (no surprise).

Yes, I think had they moved on a year or two ago they'd be in a better position today. They'd start a rebuild or retool.

Right now the Bulls are in 9th place, which is where they were last year. The year before that was basically the same.

[Infinity2152]

Lots of things factor into our record. They draft Haliburton instead of Pat, or Pat blossom like you'd hope a number 4 pick would, and this team looks totally different with basically the same personnel. Zach and Pat don't get injured, they're not in 9th place last year. Vuc shot horrible last year, much better this year.

Can you give some reasonable examples of how this retool makes us better? Assume the Bulls are absolutely not going to tank and are trying to win. Trade Derozan in 2023 for what? They tried to trade Lavine last year, then he got injured. Like be real, does anybody think they trade Debo for a lesser player while Zach is out for the season? And we'd get much for Debo as an expiring? We were going to get much for Vuc? WE NEED A 1A. Until we get that, we're going to be mid. Would it be better if we were in 7th place, or 6th right now? Would you be happy then? Pretty much guaranteed to lose our pick after selling Vuc at his lowest value instead of his highest? Again, quite possibly with a re-signed Debo because we're winning a few more games? Way I see it, those changes make us marginally better and we re-sign Debo and lose our pick this year. I prefer where we are now.

Almost none of those trades would have done much for us last year. So it's really just griping that they didn't IMMEDIATELY pivot the first year. With the doctors who had more info than everybody in here combined saying Lonzo would return.

[kodo]

Again, not saying we shouldn't have made moves. A lot of people wanted to move on from Ball, very true. Pretty clearly AK was hired with a mandate to win now. No indication that mandate changes as soon as Ball goes down. Judging the decision now that you know Ball will be injured for three years is an unfair advantage. Turns a decision they may have been 40/60 on to 100/0 on the retool side. And no guarantees the team is any better right now, so don't see the point of keep looking back on what maybe could have happened. Don't think we get great returns in those trades. We're where we are right now. Forget the last two seasons. We have what we have: Zach and Vuc shooting career highs and maybe more tradeable than the last two years with shorter contracts, Matas, Giddey, Pat, Coby, Ayo, Smith, a lot of young talent on good contracts mostly. Most of our picks. Ball about to expire. Derozan's contract gone. We're way better off than two years ago, imo. We could have a ton of cap flexibility this summer, a lot of tradeable young players, not to mention our first round draft pick this summer. Let's look forward.

Then the problem is ownership (no surprise).

Yes, I think had they moved on a year or two ago they'd be in a better position today. They'd start a rebuild or retool.

Right now the Bulls are in 9th place, which is where they were last year. The year before that was basically the same.

We'll probably be 10th by the season end?
Philly is going to break into the play-in, no doubt about it. Between us & Detroit, with Ivey down I assume we'll keep the 10th spot over DET.

[Dan Z]

Lots of things factor into our record. They draft Haliburton instead of Pat, or Pat blossom like you'd hope a number 4 pick would, and this team looks totally different with basically the same personnel. Zach and Pat don't get injured, they're not in 9th place last year. Vuc shot horrible last year, much better this year.

Can you give some reasonable examples of how this retool makes us better? Assume the Bulls are absolutely not going to tank and are trying to win. Trade Derozan in 2023 for what? They tried to trade Lavine last year, then he got injured. Like be real, does anybody think they trade Debo for a lesser player while Zach is out for the season? And we'd get much for Debo as an expiring? We were going to get much for Vuc? WE NEED A 1A. Until we get that, we're going to be mid. Would it be better if we were in 7th place, or 6th right now? Would you be happy then? Pretty much guaranteed to lose our pick after selling Vuc at his lowest value instead of his highest? Again, quite possibly with a re-signed Debo because we're winning a few more games?

I agree with you that the Bulls need a 1A. Continuing with Zach/DDR/Vuc wasnt going to help find said player.

If they want to continue to try and win with a mediocre roster then that's on the front office and ownership. But it's a waste if time. The current team, and the team two years ago, isn't going anywhere. With that in mind doesn't it make sense to change direction?

[Infinity2152]

It wasn't the time to change direction. We had just added all those players. Don't know how I can get it thru, they were NOT going to trade new additions they gave up first round picks to get and who were performing at the level they signed them for as soon as Ball goes out. Teams just don't do that. Even if they knew Ball would NEVER return, they weren't going to immediately trade those guys. Ak was not going to pivot from his big plan with the possibility of it still working. especially after they were so good when Ball played. Thats not even very reasonable. They clearly believed in the Zach/Debo/Vuc or they wouldn't have signed them. Ball was the lowest of the four. No team is scrapping the team because the player viewed as the fourth best guy goes down. You all are looking from your perspectives, and not the perspectives of people who believed in Vuc and Debo enough to trade first round picks to get them. It takes time to give up, admit your plan won't work. Takes more than half a season. Zach was injured and Debo expiring the season they were probably thinking to make moves. Until Lonzo's contract expires, we're handicapped. Now is actually the perfect time to pivot, we can clear crazy cap space this summer with a few trades or go after a ton of different players, plus we have Matas and possibly a new rookie. Pretty much everybody is healthy and tradeable, some with higher value.

Coby taking so long to get decent, Zach's injuries, Pat's injuries and lack of growth all have a huge part in why this team has been dismal, as well. So again, let's look forward. We could do a lot this summer.

[Dan Z]

It wasn't the time to change direction. We had just added all those players. Don't know how I can get it thru, they were NOT going to trade new additions they gave up first round picks to get and who were performing at the level they signed them for as soon as Ball goes out. Teams just don't do that. Even if they knew Ball would NEVER return, they weren't going to immediately trade those guys. Ak was not going to pivot from his big plan with the possibility of it still working. especially after they were so good when Ball played. Thats not even very reasonable. They clearly believed in the Zach/Debo/Vuc or they wouldn't have signed them. Ball was the lowest of the four. No team is scrapping the team because the player viewed as the fourth best guy goes down. You all are looking from your perspectives, and not the perspectives of people who believed in Vuc and Debo enough to trade first round picks to get them. It takes time to give up, admit your plan won't work. Takes more than half a season. Zach was injured and Debo expiring the season they were probably thinking to make moves. Until Lonzo's contract expires, we're handicapped. Now is actually the perfect time to pivot, we can clear crazy cap space this summer with a few trades or go after a ton of different players, plus we have Matas and possibly a new rookie. Pretty much everybody is healthy and tradeable, some with higher value.

Coby taking so long to get decent, Zach's injuries, Pat's injuries and lack of growth all have a huge part in why this team has been dismal, as well. So again, let's look forward. We could do a lot this summer.

That was a good time to pivot. Like I said the team fell apart once Lonzo got hurt and was bad the first part of the season after that. It was obvious that his recovery would take awhile and better to move on now rather than delay the enevitable.

Time has proven that.

[Infinity2152]

Pivot how? For what? Again, I'm asking for reasonable examples of pivoting that make this team substantially better. I'm giving you the highly debatable fact that they should have just KNOWN the doctors were wrong, and their plan that had been working would no longer work. I'll give you that they should have immediately given up on the entire team. Now what do they do? They have no picks, an injured $20 mill Ball, a 9pts/gm Patrick Williams, a 10pts/gm Coby White, Zach, Vuc coming off a 31% from 3 season, and Derozan. Now you can't just force teams to take your players and give you what you want, as a seller you're probably taking the hit. Now fix the Bulls in three reasonable trades. Mind you' we're trying to trade Zach and Vuc now with no luck, and they're arguably worth more, so keep your returns VERY reasonable, maybe negative with Vuc.

[Dan Z]

Pivot how? For what? Again, I'm asking for reasonable examples of pivoting that make this team substantially better. I'm giving you the highly debatable fact that they should have just KNOWN the doctors were wrong, and their plan that had been working would no longer work. I'll give you that they should have immediately given up on the entire team. Now what do they do? They have no picks, an injured $20 mill Ball, a 9pts/gm Patrick Williams, a 10pts/gm Coby White, Zach, Vuc coming off a 31% from 3 season, and Derozan. Now you can't just force teams to take your players and give you what you want, as a seller you're probably taking the hit. Now fix the Bulls in three moves.

I already told you: sometimes you have to take two steps back to take one step forward. It wouldn't be about maximizing value, but would be about moving on to the next iteration of the team. They're just delaying the envitable.

The team went nowhere last year and the year before. Where is the team headed this year?

[prolific passer]

Once we get Zion. Everything will be A-ok

[Infinity2152]

Pivot how? For what? Again, I'm asking for reasonable examples of pivoting that make this team substantially better. I'm giving you the highly debatable fact that they should have just KNOWN the doctors were wrong, and their plan that had been working would no longer work. I'll give you that they should have immediately given up on the entire team. Now what do they do? They have no picks, an injured $20 mill Ball, a 9pts/gm Patrick Williams, a 10pts/gm Coby White, Zach, Vuc coming off a 31% from 3 season, and Derozan. Now you can't just force teams to take your players and give you what you want, as a seller you're probably taking the hit. Now fix the Bulls in three moves.

I already told you: sometimes you have to take two steps back to take one step forward. It wouldn't be about maximizing value, but would be about moving on to the next iteration of the team. They're just delaying the envitable.

The team went nowhere last year and the year before. Where is the team headed this year?

Who cares about this year?? Most of us want the Bulls to lose this year!! What do we have this summer? Possibly a high first round pick, Coby on a great contract, Ayo on a great contract, Smith on a good contract, a potentially great PG in Giddey, a potentially great player in Matas, a healthy tradeable Lavine shooting career highs, Vuc with one less year on his contract, shooting well, probably a positive asset. A team full of young players with two vets that could be moved. Outside of us not having that young 1A (that we're trying to draft this summer), why do y'all think we're in a bad position if we're a rebuilding team? We're not even at the deadline; we have the assets to add Zion probably right now. Really don't understand the griping about this season if we need to be bad. Isn't that taking a step back? Trading Caruso and letting Derozan go, we were almost guaranteed to be worse. We'd be way worse now if Zach and Vuc weren't shooting so well. Trade Zach or Vuc, your two steps are done. Difference is, Lonzo's $20 mill is off the books, that's three steps.

We don't know what the returns for Zach or Vuc will be. Quite possibly higher than what we would have gotten three years ago. You talk about taking steps back. The players we traded Zach, Vuc or Derozan for could easily still be on the team. Could have been injured like many of our other players. Could be cumulatively worse than what we have now, as in we get more for trading Zach this summer than we would for trading them this summer. There are so many ways that pivot could have gone wrong, and the only way it goes right is if Lonzo stays injured all those years. We've added players that sucked but were meant to make us better. Jevon Carter ring a bell?

[Dan Z]

Pivot how? For what? Again, I'm asking for reasonable examples of pivoting that make this team substantially better. I'm giving you the highly debatable fact that they should have just KNOWN the doctors were wrong, and their plan that had been working would no longer work. I'll give you that they should have immediately given up on the entire team. Now what do they do? They have no picks, an injured $20 mill Ball, a 9pts/gm Patrick Williams, a 10pts/gm Coby White, Zach, Vuc coming off a 31% from 3 season, and Derozan. Now you can't just force teams to take your players and give you what you want, as a seller you're probably taking the hit. Now fix the Bulls in three moves.

I already told you: sometimes you have to take two steps back to take one step forward. It wouldn't be about maximizing value, but would be about moving on to the next iteration of the team. They're just delaying the envitable.

The team went nowhere last year and the year before. Where is the team headed this year?

Who cares about this year?? Most of us want the Bulls to lose this year!! What do we have this summer? Possibly a high first round pick, Coby on a great contract, Ayo on a great contract, Smith on a good contract, a potentially great PG in Giddey, a potentially great player in Matas, a healthy tradeable Lavine shooting career highs, Vuc with one less year on his contract, shooting well, probably a positive asset. A team full of young players with two vets that could be moved. Outside of us not having that young 1A (that we're trying to draft this summer), why do y'all think we're in a bad position if we're a rebuilding team? We're not even at the deadline; we have the assets to add Zion probably right now. Really don't understand the griping about this season if we need to be bad. Isn't that taking a step back? Trading Caruso and letting Derozan go, we were almost guaranteed to be worse. We'd be way worse now if Zach and Vuc weren't shooting so well. Trade Zach or Vuc, your two steps are done. Difference is, Lonzo's $20 mill is off the books, that's three steps.

It's because what the front office has been doing hasn"t worked. They should've moved in a new direction years ago and maybe they'd have assets to work with right now.

I don't think the team right now is in a good position to do anything. In your scenario the Pelicans will want the 2025 pick. What if it goes to SA?

Zion is a huge risk. I wouldn't do it, but if it were to happen it's the front office bring desperate.

I wish the Bulls didn't have a desperate front office.

[Infinity2152]

I already told you: sometimes you have to take two steps back to take one step forward. It wouldn't be about maximizing value, but would be about moving on to the next iteration of the team. They're just delaying the envitable.

The team went nowhere last year and the year before. Where is the team headed this year?

Who cares about this year?? Most of us want the Bulls to lose this year!! What do we have this summer? Possibly a high first round pick, Coby on a great contract, Ayo on a great contract, Smith on a good contract, a potentially great PG in Giddey, a potentially great player in Matas, a healthy tradeable Lavine shooting career highs, Vuc with one less year on his contract, shooting well, probably a positive asset. A team full of young players with two vets that could be moved. Outside of us not having that young 1A (that we're trying to draft this summer), why do y'all think we're in a bad position if we're a rebuilding team? We're not even at the deadline; we have the assets to add Zion probably right now. Really don't understand the griping about this season if we need to be bad. Isn't that taking a step back? Trading Caruso and letting Derozan go, we were almost guaranteed to be worse. We'd be way worse now if Zach and Vuc weren't shooting so well. Trade Zach or Vuc, your two steps are done. Difference is, Lonzo's $20 mill is off the books, that's three steps.

It's because what the front office has been doing hasn"t worked. They should've moved in a new direction years ago and maybe they'd have assets to work with right now.

I don't think the team right now is in a good position to do anything. In your scenario the Pelicans will want the 2025 pick. What if it goes to SA?

Zion is a huge risk. I wouldn't do it, but if it were to happen it's the front office bring desperate.

I wish the Bulls didn't have a desperate front office.

Desperate would have been immediately blowing up the team after the injury, lol! What assets do you think we would possibly have better than what we have now? I'm still failing to see that new direction that would have resulted in us having that 1A player, which is the reason there's no hope here. If we had that young 1A, everybody's attitude would be different. Patrick Williams not being Tyrese Haliburton or D Wade or what you expect from a number 4 pick changes a lot. We had two young top 10 picks on the team at the same time as the "Big 3". We still have them, plus Ayo, another high potential rookie (Matas) and a young talent in Giddey. We're lacking in high end talent but we're not talentless and we're young. I'm hoping if we get our pick this year, we draft someone worth way more than whatever marginal gains we would have had pivoting.

Guess I'm just more of a glass half full guy. We're still looking for that number 1, but I think we have way more flexibility this summer than the last few years. Matas was projected top 5, he could be very good, maybe great. That's a start. If we don't get our pick this year, that unlocks our future picks for trades.

Zion's just an example of something we could do to add high end talent. With the injury exclusions in his contract, adding him is much less risky, but still a risk.

[Dan Z]

Who cares about this year?? Most of us want the Bulls to lose this year!! What do we have this summer? Possibly a high first round pick, Coby on a great contract, Ayo on a great contract, Smith on a good contract, a potentially great PG in Giddey, a potentially great player in Matas, a healthy tradeable Lavine shooting career highs, Vuc with one less year on his contract, shooting well, probably a positive asset. A team full of young players with two vets that could be moved. Outside of us not having that young 1A (that we're trying to draft this summer), why do y'all think we're in a bad position if we're a rebuilding team? We're not even at the deadline; we have the assets to add Zion probably right now. Really don't understand the griping about this season if we need to be bad. Isn't that taking a step back? Trading Caruso and letting Derozan go, we were almost guaranteed to be worse. We'd be way worse now if Zach and Vuc weren't shooting so well. Trade Zach or Vuc, your two steps are done. Difference is, Lonzo's $20 mill is off the books, that's three steps.

It's because what the front office has been doing hasn"t worked. They should've moved in a new direction years ago and maybe they'd have assets to work with right now.

I don't think the team right now is in a good position to do anything. In your scenario the Pelicans will want the 2025 pick. What if it goes to SA?

Zion is a huge risk. I wouldn't do it, but if it were to happen it's the front office bring desperate.

I wish the Bulls didn't have a desperate front office.

Desperate would have been immediately blowing up the team after the injury, lol! What assets do you think we would possibly have better than what we have now? I'm still failing to see that new direction that would have resulted in us having that 1A player, which is the reason there's no hope here. If we had that young 1A, everybody's attitude would be different. Patrick Williams not being Tyrese Haliburton or D Wade or what you expect from a number 4 pick changes a lot. We had two young top 10 picks on the team at the same time as the "Big 3". We still have them, plus Ayo, another high potential rookie (Matas) and a young talent in Giddey. We're lacking in high end talent but we're not talentless and we're young. I'm hoping if we get our pick this year, we draft someone worth way more than whatever marginal gains we would have had pivoting.

And if they give the pick to SA?

Like I said the team fell apart after Lonzo got hurt and was bad during the first part of the following season. It was obvious to see that things weren't working and i'm not the only person to say that at that time (on RealGM).

If something isn't working it's best to try sonething else asap rather than drag it out.