AlexanderRight wrote:KayDee35 wrote:AlexanderRight wrote:
There were plenty of #2s in that era that were excellent players.
Joe Dumars was Finals MVP, 6 time All Star, 3 time All NBA, 5 time All Defensive Team
Magic had Kareem and James Worthy...need I say more?
Bird had McHale who's arguably the greatest post player in history.
Kevin Johnson was 5 time All NBA point guard that averaged around 20/10 for six different seasons. Imagine how MJ would have played with a point guard that could pass and score like that.
Same story with John Stockton imagine the offense and easy buckets MJ would get playing with that point god.
Take any one of the Hardways. Magic Hardaway or from RUN TMC/Miami Hardaway. With their mindset with dribbling/scoring ability, either one of them would have flourished playing with Jordan.
It's easy to look back and and say that just because none of these guys were on teams that enjoyed as much success as the Bulls that it automatically means Pippen would have been better than any of these guys no matter what but that would be completely disregarding the impact playing with MJ/Phil would have. Pippen had his weaknesses as a player that all of these players would have been able to fill. MJ never played with a legitimate scoring threat at the post or along side him at the guard spot. Just picking and plugging in different players onto different teams in that era and pretending that their stats and play would be the same no matter what would be completely ignoring how environment/culture/ teammates impact how other players develop.
Of the teams that MJ faced in his 6 Finals, he was always the best player on the court except arguably against the Sonics. Pippen sometimes performed as well the the #1 option on the other team. And when he didn't he was easily the 3rd best player on the court.
In the first 3 Finals Pippen averaged around 22/9/8 while playing ferocious, stifling defense. Pippen outperformed Kevin Johnson in the one Finals when they met and had a much bigger defensive impact including stretches guarding Barkley effectively. Your team does not get better swapping Pippen for KJ.
I think it's fair to say that MJ had better help relative to his competition at the time. That's not a knock on MJ. He was still usually the best player on the court but he also had the better teammates.
You can't penalize MJ for being the best player on the floor or not being an "underdog" in a series. That defeats the whole idea of being the GOAT in the first place. It's a backwards argument. MJ was never outplayed in a series, unlike Russell who averages less points, rebounds, assists per game and FG% than Wilt head to head.
Pippen never matched or outperformed the other #1 option in a Finals. He did not match or outperform Clyde, Barkely, Payton/Kemp, Malone in any of those Finals. That 91 Lakers squad had 4 guys averaging over 16ppg in that Finals, it wasn't just about Magic. That Portland team had 6 guys averaging double digits in the playoffs. Phoenix had 7 guys doing that over the regular season and 4 guys averaging over 15ppg in the Finals. Pippen averaged 34% in the 96 Finals while Kemp in that series averaging 23/10 on 55% shooting. He was the 2nd highest scorer in that series while blocking more shots than everyone on the floor (2 Bpg). This notion that MJ was playing against rec YMCA teams in the Finals just isn't true in the real world...
I'm not saying Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen. I'm saying that there were plenty competent number #2 options on Finals teams that would have been just as competent if not more competent playing next to MJ. If they made the Finals as a #2 without MJ, it'd be ridiculous to assume they wouldn't have done the same with him. You can't just presume these players would have been the same or ignore how the team would have been structured going forward if you swapped them out with Pippen as they developed in completely separate environments.
I'm not sure why you're being defensive over me acknowledging that MJ was the best player on the court. That's weird. I didn't knock him for it or give him credit for it because the topic was his teammates. Speaking of which:
- '91 Finals: Pippen outcored, outrebounded, and had twice as many steals per game as Magic. Pip also player great defense on Worthy and shut Magic down when he was on him. Pippen was easily the best player in the closeout Game 5 of that series. Magic does not have a clear edge over Pippen. I'm fine with calling them 2a and 2b.
- '92 Finals: Pippen had 20.8/8.3/7.7/1.5/0.7 on .561 TS% and Drexler had 24.8/7.8/5.3/1.3/1.0 on .522 TS%. Pippen had better efficiency and better defense that Clyde in that series. He was the second best player on the court.
- '93 Finals: Barkley was the second best player on the court and Pippen was third. Pretty clear.
- '96 Finals: The first Finals where MJ is not the best hands down the best player on the floor. Kemp had a series on par with MJ's. So they're 1a and 1b. Pippen and Payton also performed similarly. So they're 3a and 3b.
- '97 Finals: Pippen and Malone had the same apg and spg. Malone had 4 more ppg and Pippen had 1.5 more bpg. But Scottie was far more efficient with .541 TS% to Malone .485 TS%. Pippen's defense was terrific that series as he provided tremendous value by being the primary rim protector for the Bulls. Pippen had the better series. I'm not trading 1.5 blocks and better shooting for 4 more points on poor efficiency. Pip gets 2nd.
- '98 Finals: Malone has a better series but Pippen performs way better than a 35-year old Stockton so Pip was the 3rd best performer.
So in 6 Finals, Pippen's performances rank 2(a), 2, 3, 3a, 2, and 3. In half of their Finals, Pippen is the 2nd best player on the floor and in the other half he's the 3rd best. It's weird how that 6-0 Finals record looks different when you consider the second best player of MJ's rivals. Pippen is the best second banana of all-time and that certainly can't hurt when it comes to winning.
I get that Russell is hard to understand for many. I'll let Havlicek explain it:
Havlicek wrote:"Russell was the kind of player who never concerned himself with personal goals. He put his team above all else, and in the process, he made his teammates better players. If you were a scorer, you were six to eight points better because Russell was around. If you were a good defensive player, you became a great defensive player.
The most important things to Bill were championships, rings, and winning. He was never after the personal stats. Wilt could raise the level of his game. He could do things that were eye-popping when you reviewed the box score, but he could never figure out how to make his teammates around him better."
Russell elevated his teammates on both ends of the floor. He did the hard things that his team needed and made the game easier for his team. His style allowed his teammates to make sacrifices as well for the good of the team. Russell played to win, so he got outplayed in just one series in his career and that was the only time he lost to Wilt.
