lilfishi22 wrote:I would've liked us to have picked up his option but I totally understand why they didn't. FWIW OKC has nothing but time and a salary floor to reach (which I don't think they even reached) so picking up the option of the mistakes of our past is no biggie. Ultimately, it comes down to do we think spending $5m on a him was a good use of resources (salary cap/luxury tax/roster spot) or could you get near 90% of what Jalen Smith gives you for the vet minimum? Frank is right to keep it simple, Smith just wasn't worth the luxury tax to keep on the roster nor made sense to double down on the draft mistake.
My response was to the comment "Jalen wasn't worth 4 million + to anybody." I was the one who mentioned it being understandable with the luxury tax.
But it's rare. I understand OKC's predicament, but in general it's just rare not to pick up rookie contract options....particularly lotto pick ones, and particularly after 1 year of play.
I think any other team picks it up and I think we even pick it up if we are not in the tax, or were not that near it.
I don't think it's as simple as not being worth $4+ million as stated.
I think it is that simple. You could throw in the LT and roster spot as rationale but ultimately, he's not worth it.
Is there any other great reason to keep him past this season other than maybe to use him in a trade? Because I think if you ask the Zach Lowe question of whether you could get 85% of a player's production for the vet min or 1/3 of the price, the answer is probably yes? Could you get a Jon Henson or a Biyombo type on the minimum to give you 85% of what Smith has given us? Or if you had $4.6m, could you better use on someone like Trez, Thad Young or Ibaka type next off season?
You are talking about right now though. Not where he might be next year. Are you expecting zero growth? Year two is the year most players grow the most.
But the main point is, that $4 million costs a lot more than $4 million. If we were right around the cap I don't think they'd think twice about picking it up unless they didn't feel good about their training staff.
bwgood77 wrote: My response was to the comment "Jalen wasn't worth 4 million + to anybody." I was the one who mentioned it being understandable with the luxury tax.
But it's rare. I understand OKC's predicament, but in general it's just rare not to pick up rookie contract options....particularly lotto pick ones, and particularly after 1 year of play.
I think any other team picks it up and I think we even pick it up if we are not in the tax, or were not that near it.
I don't think it's as simple as not being worth $4+ million as stated.
I think it is that simple. You could throw in the LT and roster spot as rationale but ultimately, he's not worth it.
Is there any other great reason to keep him past this season other than maybe to use him in a trade? Because I think if you ask the Zach Lowe question of whether you could get 85% of a player's production for the vet min or 1/3 of the price, the answer is probably yes? Could you get a Jon Henson or a Biyombo type on the minimum to give you 85% of what Smith has given us? Or if you had $4.6m, could you better use on someone like Trez, Thad Young or Ibaka type next off season?
You are talking about right now though. Not where he might be next year. Are you expecting zero growth? Year two is the year most players grow the most.
But the main point is, that $4 million costs a lot more than $4 million. If we were right around the cap I don't think they'd think twice about picking it up unless they didn't feel good about their training staff.
When we're in a championship window with a Chris Paul turning 37 during this post-season, it kinda is about the now isn't it? What are the opportunity costs if we had committed to Smith next season at $4.7m or $6m the season after. Even if I expect better than expected growth, will that be out-performing a vet that might be available for $5m? And it's not just counting stats. Experience, leadership and performance are all considerations when you're spending $5m on a guy on a title contender. With improvement, at best we're getting some decent stats but what about the playoff experience, leadership and not being afraid of the moment. If I could get a guy like McGee for $5m (which is already an overpay), a guy with 3 titles to his name, you know that guy has seen it all, knows his fit and understands what he needs to do to bring the best out of himself and the team.
It's all about margin for error on a title contender and with Jalen Smith on $4.7m, there's just too many unknowns. And you're right, if we weren't right at the LT, we may have just bit the bullet and gave him another year but we don't choose the deadlines and the deadline was today and we had to make that decision.
And if he plays somewhat well this season (in practice and in-game), it doesn't preclude us from the admittedly unlikely scenario that we bring him back on a cheaper deal.
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Yeah! I get your argument for veteran experience IF we're legitimately going "all in". To me personally, I take issue with not trading the pick once we decided that we didn't have the " time" to develop youth anymore. If we anticipated this, Then why hold onto the pick instead of trading it? This was an incredible waste of what could be our last lottery prospect in quite a long time! IF we determined that we were all in, Then why not move his contract or the pick for a veteran then instead of wasting a whole year and also wasting a draft asset ( tradable asset). In sitting him and not really playing him, We basically tanked any percieved value that might of had in addition to wasting that positional slot on a veteran contributor that might've made the difference for us! So once we obtained Paul and Crowder, and then made our run, Why didn't we simply choose to move him at the end of last season for like anything??? For me, The jury is out on this until I see who they creatively look to replace him with. I would prefer ( and expect them to look at combining his expiring 4.5 million with one of Ctowder or Nader, Hutchinson)+ a first ( IF NECESSARY) etc. For any of:
Jerami Grant, Christian Wood, Robert Covington, Chris Boucher, Daniel Theiss, Kelly Olynyk, Tristan Thompson, Montrez Harrell?
Than I can understand/ accept this a bit more. As it would prove our intent to go for it! But if it's just for the purpose of cutting cost in order to resign players that we've already expected to resign anyways, Then this was a wasted asset. And again, what would've before not playing Smith offered greater trade value towards a veteran addition for our run last season. Lastly, IF we didn't execute poor judgment in overpaying Shamet, Then none of this would be an issue. The suns just need to make things right by trading for an impact veteran using Smith's contract so we can bolster our depth in this narrow window of contention!
I think it's pretty obvious that we weren't really anticipating to go all in at that point because we haven't even made the playoffs yet and that we drafted Smith because we legitimately thought he would be a contributor in perhaps a 10-15mpg capacity on a maybe lower seed playoff team. Had everything they envisioned came to reality we would have a big man who could defend, rebound and shoot 3's for us locked into a relatively cap friendly contract for another two seasons (+ option to extend further). But when we drafted Smith we very likely did not anticipate we would be in that Finals that very same season and bringing forward our championship window (and aspirations) significantly closer. The Covid, injuries and the shortened season certainly didn't help with his development and opportunities but it is what it is. It was a crap hand that he was dealt.
If we were still a middle of the pack playoff/play-in team, I think we may have a bit more patience but adding CP3 and getting into the Finals meant we now have much higher aspirations and at the same time, much lower margin for error. Unfortunately carrying deadweight on a team with title aspirations just doesn't go together and we had to make a decision. And it's the reason why we put Jalen on the block or were talking to teams about trade packages including Jalen this past offseason. If we had the benefit of hindsight, I think we would've likely sold off that pick for a vet but coming off a 34-39 season, it would have been irresponsible to go "all in" at that point. Keep in mind, teams that just miss playoffs after being in the absolutely bottom of the NBA wins column for the better part of the past decade do not suddenly become a Finals team the following season.
FWIW if we're in the self reflection discussion, the poor judgement would have been taking Smith in the first place. You're obviously closer to the draft than myself but I think you would agree that Smith probably wasn't your first choice at #10.
think it's pretty obvious that we weren't really anticipating to go all in at that point because we haven't even made the playoffs yet
For sure I agree that we exceeded expectations in making it to the finals. But if memory serves, I believe Jones himself stated that "bringing in Paul was their all in move" and that their intent was to win a title and nothing less!
2020-21 Suns Media Week: GM Jones wants Suns fans to expect titles
Phoenix Suns GM James Jones is embracing high expectations rather than avoiding them, despite franchise’s 10 year playoff drought
By Dave King on November 30, 2020 12:58 pm
A man with the nickname ‘Champ’ knows what winning basketball looks like. And he wants NBA fans to expect not only a winner but an NBA champion.
“I’m looking forward to watching our guys compete,” Jones said.
The Suns were tops in the league in assists per game and ranked 8th (of 30) on total offense last year despite ranking only 16th on three-point percentage. Enter several offseason additions with career-long track records as good shooters. More made shots equals even more assists, higher scoring, and a chance to win a lot more games.
But Jones doesn’t want just a few more wins. The expectations are clear this year. Jones has said several times to the media that any season is a disappointment if you don’t win the championship. And that starts with how you handle yourself every day.
So Jones approximately 14 days after they acquired Paul from the Thunder stated his expectations for a championship! And that anything less than that would be a disappointment. So given that perspective, And once we determined that we had no time to offer Smith for development over established vets being the priority, We should have been exploring trades, as to not waste his time or ours and utilize the asset rather than bot playing or developing him and as a result torpedoing his percieved value as a 10th pick. There had to be interested teams around that time! San Antonio for sure was interested in him as one example alone.
it could be worth it for the Spurs to take a flyer on him. In fact, before ultimately selecting Vassell in the draft, there was a report that Smith was on the Spurs' radar, suggesting that they already believed in his talent after watching his career at Maryland.
we drafted Smith because we legitimately thought he would be a contributor in perhaps a 10-15mpg capacity on a maybe lower seed playoff team
This confuses me, As IF we legitimately thought he'd be a contributor, Then why didn't we play him more? I mean obviously it's hard to be a contributor when you don't get any real playing time. And again, Jones mentioned a few times ( post Paul trade) that his expectations for the team were to win a championship. Not be a lower seed playoff team, and that anything less than a championship would be a disappointment. To me at least, There choosing to jot play him at all during the playoffs, and hardly at all since drafting him would seem to indicate them not believing that he could be a contributor to the team. So if that was the case even back last season, Then why not simply trade him rather than sit on him and diminish his already decreasing value? This is what's frustrating to me.
FWIW if we're in the self reflection discussion, the poor judgement would have been taking Smith in the first place. You're obviously closer to the draft than myself but I think you would agree that Smith probably wasn't your first choice at #10.
Well apparently, it wouldn't really matter who we took IF the end result was choosing to not play them in interest of cheap veteran options due to experience. Also with the results being the same as well in declining their options due to luxury tax concerns. Since the salary scale would remain the same for whomever we picked at 10 really. You're right man, I will agree that Smith wasn't my first choice! My first choice was to trade back for value as we had multiple positional needs for that draft. I suggested trading back for either: Boston's 14th and 26th picks to take a combination of Cole Anthony and Precious Achiuwa. Or Isiah Stewart or Saddiq Bey and Desmond Bane for shooting.
And if not Boston, Otherwise Dallas for their 18th and 31st picks. That way I could take dither Bey or Achiuwa at 18, And add a future 2nd or other minor sweetener to move up one or two spots to take Desmond Bane or Malachi Flynn. That was my first choice. But regardless of whom we chose, Since this was our last chance in a long time for a lottery pick. We should've made an effort to get the most out of it, And actually found some playing time and development for that player. If playing time was not available on our contending team because we preferred veteran options, then we should've looked to put him back in the GLeague or else traded him earlier for an actual cheap vet replacement. We did neither really. Instead, we sat on him, let his value tank, then chose not to accept his option. We just did a terrible job in asset management when we could've gotten value IF we acted sooner.
And honestly, all this situation is really just a consequence of rushing to overpay Shamet by a fair margin in bidding against ourselves. He hadn't proven anything yet close to proving that value contractually yet. But still he was given it because our coach likes him. So Smith is a casualty of that negligence.
So so far, The Shamet trade has cost us Jevon Carter/ Jalen Smith ( 10th pick) and our 2021 first. Or two firsts and a 3rd string guard option. I just hope that he shows out and proves his contract. Otherwise it'll look like a pretty dumb decision. Even worse if you consider a better and more efficient shooter in Merrill was traded to Memphis along with two 2nds for a 4 million salary bench player in grayson Allen. We could've easily flipped Carter to Milwaukee for the same package. And Merrill is currently only making $ 1.2 million.
Puff wrote:We have surely crapped the bed with our draft picks.
I guess they have no hope for Smith ever being a contributor in the NBA. Yet they love Monty's boy Shamet. He has basically sucked this season and we signed him to a long term contract.
Did we just get very lucky last year because of all the injuries to our competition?
Yes the sky is falling. Does anyone really have any confidence in James Jones decisions at this point?
I am one of the few posters who disagree with the majority, regarding the performance of "executive of the year JJ" and Monty (I include Monty in the discussion, you can't separate the head coach with an executive IMO). Chris Paul's signing and Ayton's playoff performance masked some troubling decisions. The Suns lucked into the CP sweepstake, CP forced his way out of OKC and NY was the only other viable option. I suspect he picked Phoenix because of proximity to family. Without Chris Paul, this team would be saddled with Rubio and Oubre. I severely doubt we would have broke 0.500 ball. I think JJ and Monty would be in the hot seat had the CP trade not gone down.
Ayton going HAM in the playoff let JJ off the inexcusable excuse of not addressing the big man "gaping hole." I think had we had some better than Frank the Tank, we might have won the championship. Saric going down was a bigger issue than people think.
I was an early fan of the JJ/Monty. I still buy into the culture thing but things like draft, player development, coaching decision, etc. makes my head hurt. The season is still young, and there's so much talent here, so I think we can grind ourselves into a meaningful contention. But long term ...
This. Soooo much this... I have little to none faith in JJ. Been vocal about it too, but got into too many arguments, and I just let it rest...
Smith just isn’t worth 4+ mill a yr… to anybody. Virtually untradable with a that guarantee. Sure, mistake 1 was drafting him over Halliburton or 3-4 others.
No point in beating that to death, but also no point to chase bad money with good. Who knows, he could ink up a min deal next yr here… or somewhere… or overseas. And he is more valuable in trade land as an expiring.
Nothing to see here folks, keep moving
Every other team would have picked it up. It's less than a year after the draft and a top 10 pick. I get why we didn't due to the luxury tax and it being a savings of more like $15 million, but no other guy on a rookie contract didn't get his option picked up for 3rd or 4th year except Jarrett Culver (4th year) and that was mainly because Memphis is loaded at the guard spots with Ja, Melton, Bane, Brooks, Tyus Jones, and GoK's favorite, Sam Merrill.
Heck, Ty Jerome's 4th year option at $4.22 million was picked up and he has showed diddly squat, and OKC has Giddey, Shai, Theo Maledon, Tre Mann and another rookie at guard.
If you are high enough on a guy to take him at #10, to give up on him in less than a year after having no rookie training camp, summer league, etc, injury and COVID. Being a contender it makes sense he didn't play, I understand people thinking he should have gotten in before Kaminsky after Saric went down, but you don't play a rookie suddenly in the playoffs when you haven't needed him all year. Kaminsky also has a lot of experience with the team.
Jalen Smith is likely to get picked up by someone next summer. Probably OKC will pay him given they probably have plenty of money to do so...or maybe someone like Boston wanting more depth up front.
GoK's favorite, Sam Merrill.
Yep! For the low price of 1.2 million, I think he's a better more efficient overall version of Shamet. But I get that Monty has his favorites such as Saric and Shamet that have to get overpaid.....lol. By the way :
He basically gives you everything that Shamet does, But for only 1/10th the cost of Shamets' salary. And he has a better FG%, is better from three and the free throw line, rebounds, assists and steals. Otherwise mostly identical statistically as a shooter.
Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted: Monty Williams said “it’s hard” in regards to Jalen Smith not getting the kind of opportunity most NBA rookies get to grow: https://t.co/VbRmVfRLGd
Puff wrote:We have surely crapped the bed with our draft picks.
I guess they have no hope for Smith ever being a contributor in the NBA. Yet they love Monty's boy Shamet. He has basically sucked this season and we signed him to a long term contract.
Did we just get very lucky last year because of all the injuries to our competition?
Yes the sky is falling. Does anyone really have any confidence in James Jones decisions at this point?
I am one of the few posters who disagree with the majority, regarding the performance of "executive of the year JJ" and Monty (I include Monty in the discussion, you can't separate the head coach with an executive IMO). Chris Paul's signing and Ayton's playoff performance masked some troubling decisions. The Suns lucked into the CP sweepstake, CP forced his way out of OKC and NY was the only other viable option. I suspect he picked Phoenix because of proximity to family. Without Chris Paul, this team would be saddled with Rubio and Oubre. I severely doubt we would have broke 0.500 ball. I think JJ and Monty would be in the hot seat had the CP trade not gone down.
Ayton going HAM in the playoff let JJ off the inexcusable excuse of not addressing the big man "gaping hole." I think had we had some better than Frank the Tank, we might have won the championship. Saric going down was a bigger issue than people think.
I was an early fan of the JJ/Monty. I still buy into the culture thing but things like draft, player development, coaching decision, etc. makes my head hurt. The season is still young, and there's so much talent here, so I think we can grind ourselves into a meaningful contention. But long term ...
If we really analyze James Jones with the team he sucks. The only reason we got to the finals last year was because Chris Paul WANTED to be here. James Jones had little to do with him coming here except pushing paper.
Poor draft decision during the time James Jones has been in the front office.
1. We chose Ayton rather than Doncic - a historically poor decision and it will get worse through the years. Yeah he wasn't GM but reportedly had the owners ear. 2. We chose Bridges rather than going hard after SGA. Another decisions that will get worse through the years. I know most of you guys love Mikal. I like him but really question how good he will be 5 years from now. Prove me wrong, please. 3. He chose Smith rather than Haliburton. He was no longer a passenger in the front office he was in the Drivers Seat. Another historically poor decisions, not just a bad decision.
He is going to have to pull some real tricks out of his arse to fix these mistakes. I like Cam Johnson but not buying into all the hype just yet. Was Cam Payne a one year wonder, could be. Shamet at this writing looks like another horrible decision.
Yes the sky is falling and I have no confidence in James Jones
We have built such a weak foundation to the team. We have no one to take over after CP3. All our draft picks since Booker are busts or just role players. Devin Booker still cannot shoot 3s. I agree that Chris Paul is holding this team together along with Booker, but they are low-tier allstars at this point. It feels like we have reached our ceiling and there isn't much to be excited about even after a finals run. Once CP3 truly falls apart, we will be over the cap with Booker as our only offensive creator.
We can post all we want about Ayton's 18 ppg rookie season and his TS%, but it doesn't mean jack for developing as an offensive weapon because he's not taking anyone off the dribble, getting to the line, shooting 3s or fadeaways. You cannot just suddenly bust those moves out of nowhere after 4 years of being assisted on 70-80% of your shots. There is basically 0 chance he gets to the level of, say, Towns. I hope to god he reaches Goberts level of defensive impact.
As for Mikal, I hope he can get better. But it's a damn long road to getting to be a 2nd or even 3rd option for a contender. I'll give him some more games but it's not likely. It's kind of a bummer to be honest to watch 2nd year guys or even rookies seemingly play better right out of the gate (Bane, Franz). Heck even Miles Bridges looks like he's ballooned into a force.
Cam Johnson is a bang average player and nobody would realize if he was included with Ayton in a package for a bigger player. Dunno why people go crazy for him. Again, it's disappointing watching 1st and 2nd year guys seemingly leapfrog him from the start.
As for Jalen Smith...just lol why even draft him.
I seem to be noticing a pattern here where we have a chance to get the 2nd all star playmaker next to Devin Booker and opt for role player bigs or wings.
Anyway, that's what I really feel. I've been more excited to watch Memphis and Houston than I have the Suns. It's just so hard sometimes to watch the team knowing what players we could have had even when we succeed.
sunskerr wrote:We have built such a weak foundation to the team. We have no one to take over after CP3. All our draft picks since Booker are busts or just role players. Devin Booker still cannot shoot 3s. I agree that Chris Paul is holding this team together along with Booker, but they are low-tier allstars at this point. It feels like we have reached our ceiling and there isn't much to be excited about even after a finals run. Once CP3 truly falls apart, we will be over the cap with Booker as our only offensive creator.
We can post all we want about Ayton's 18 ppg rookie season and his TS%, but it doesn't mean jack for developing as an offensive weapon because he's not taking anyone off the dribble, getting to the line, shooting 3s or fadeaways. You cannot just suddenly bust those moves out of nowhere after 4 years of being assisted on 70-80% of your shots. There is basically 0 chance he gets to the level of, say, Towns. I hope to god he reaches Goberts level of defensive impact.
As for Mikal, I hope he can get better. But it's a damn long road to getting to be a 2nd or even 3rd option for a contender. I'll give him some more games but it's not likely. It's kind of a bummer to be honest to watch 2nd year guys or even rookies seemingly play better right out of the gate (Bane, Franz). Heck even Miles Bridges looks like he's ballooned into a force.
Cam Johnson is a bang average player and nobody would realize if he was included with Ayton in a package for a bigger player. Dunno why people go crazy for him. Again, it's disappointing watching 1st and 2nd year guys seemingly leapfrog him from the start.
As for Jalen Smith...just lol why even draft him.
I seem to be noticing a pattern here where we have a chance to get the 2nd all star playmaker next to Devin Booker and opt for role player bigs or wings.
Anyway, that's what I really feel. I've been more excited to watch Memphis and Houston than I have the Suns. It's just so hard sometimes to watch the team knowing what players we could have had even when we succeed.
Not only are we playing like trash but our attendance is not good either. There seems to be little excitement with this team from anyone, that includes virtually this entire board.
I agree with your entire post. I thought the nonsense ended with the departure of McDonough. He at least drafted Booker and reportedly wanted to draft Doncic. Right now I would take a team with Doncic and Booker on it and you could trash everyone else. That includes Ayton, Mikal and Cam Johnson.
Puff wrote:Not only are we playing like trash but our attendance is not good either. There seems to be little excitement with this team from anyone, that includes virtually this entire board.
I agree with your entire post. I thought the nonsense ended with the departure of McDonough. He at least drafted Booker and reportedly wanted to draft Doncic. Right now I would take a team with Doncic and Booker on it and you could trash everyone else. That includes Ayton, Mikal and Cam Johnson.
I've often found myself wondering the last few weeks, "why the **** am I not excited about the Suns?". You'd think I was crazy to not be excited for a young team that just went to the finals. But something always just felt off about the team no matter how hard I tried to drum up excitement. It's very difficult to put it into words. Why does something feel off about this team? It's a feeling that is a bit like expecting the roof to cave in at any moment - or or when you simply shove a mess under the carpet.
Yeah, I agree with the Doncic sentiment. I think that's a big part of it. Heck I'd have settled for SGA + Booker on their current giant contracts and send everyone else to the shadow realm. Then just grab like Rubio and Theis on cheap contracts to fill it out lmao. There is also no doubt in my mind if Haliburton was given a massive opportunity alongside Booker here that he'd be seen as an incredible up and comer. You'd have to take that surely over CP3's massive contract.
I really do think last year was our only chance. We didn't get it, and now we have hit our ceiling and are over the cap. This has to be another source of why we don't feel good about the team. Ultimately this can be the worst position to be in as a team - maxed out cap room with little room for improvement.
At some level, people are not stupid. People can see how good a lot of these players are (Jokic, Giannis, KD, Harden etc.) and how stacked these teams are. Can we beat them? Sure, but it's not **** likely and anyone who is sane will tell you that.
I'm almost more excited at the prospect of just blowing it up, or at least relieved that we did not extend Ayton. Max contract? haha no thank you. That's the best thing we've done all offseason.
Puff wrote:We have surely crapped the bed with our draft picks.
I guess they have no hope for Smith ever being a contributor in the NBA. Yet they love Monty's boy Shamet. He has basically sucked this season and we signed him to a long term contract.
Did we just get very lucky last year because of all the injuries to our competition?
Yes the sky is falling. Does anyone really have any confidence in James Jones decisions at this point?
I am one of the few posters who disagree with the majority, regarding the performance of "executive of the year JJ" and Monty (I include Monty in the discussion, you can't separate the head coach with an executive IMO). Chris Paul's signing and Ayton's playoff performance masked some troubling decisions. The Suns lucked into the CP sweepstake, CP forced his way out of OKC and NY was the only other viable option. I suspect he picked Phoenix because of proximity to family. Without Chris Paul, this team would be saddled with Rubio and Oubre. I severely doubt we would have broke 0.500 ball. I think JJ and Monty would be in the hot seat had the CP trade not gone down.
Ayton going HAM in the playoff let JJ off the inexcusable excuse of not addressing the big man "gaping hole." I think had we had some better than Frank the Tank, we might have won the championship. Saric going down was a bigger issue than people think.
I was an early fan of the JJ/Monty. I still buy into the culture thing but things like draft, player development, coaching decision, etc. makes my head hurt. The season is still young, and there's so much talent here, so I think we can grind ourselves into a meaningful contention. But long term ...
If we really analyze James Jones with the team he sucks. The only reason we got to the finals last year was because Chris Paul WANTED to be here. James Jones had little to do with him coming here except pushing paper.
Poor draft decision during the time James Jones has been in the front office.
1. We chose Ayton rather than Doncic - a historically poor decision and it will get worse through the years. Yeah he wasn't GM but reportedly had the owners ear. 2. We chose Bridges rather than going hard after SGA. Another decisions that will get worse through the years. I know most of you guys love Mikal. I like him but really question how good he will be 5 years from now. Prove me wrong, please. 3. He chose Smith rather than Haliburton. He was no longer a passenger in the front office he was in the Drivers Seat. Another historically poor decisions, not just a bad decision.
He is going to have to pull some real tricks out of his arse to fix these mistakes. I like Cam Johnson but not buying into all the hype just yet. Was Cam Payne a one year wonder, could be. Shamet at this writing looks like another horrible decision.
Yes the sky is falling and I have no confidence in James Jones
This is the best team that we have had since 09/10 and is built for the next few years. It's a sustainable project because a lot of our core players are around 24/25 years old.
James Jones was not a GM when we drafted Ayton and Mikal. It wasn't his fault at all. He probably had a voice there but ultimately was McDonough's decision. And we are talking about two very good young players, so weren't truly bad selections. Yeah, Doncic and SGA are better but Ayton and Mikal are good enough to deserve their draft positions, they aren't busts.
James Jones has a great reputation around the league and players love him. He is a huge positive factor on our side. CP3 wanted to play on the Suns because of Book, but obviously Monty and James Jones were a factor too.
He did a mistake selecting Jalen Smith, but those bad picks happen to any GM.
Cam Johnson and Cam Payne are good players but not starter material IMO, but that's OK. They are relatively cheap and have big roles coming from the bench, you need those type of players as a contender.
Shamet is timid for now but you will see how his basketball IQ and shooting are gonna help this team a lot during the next few years.
Puff wrote:Not only are we playing like trash but our attendance is not good either. There seems to be little excitement with this team from anyone, that includes virtually this entire board.
I agree with your entire post. I thought the nonsense ended with the departure of McDonough. He at least drafted Booker and reportedly wanted to draft Doncic. Right now I would take a team with Doncic and Booker on it and you could trash everyone else. That includes Ayton, Mikal and Cam Johnson.
I've often found myself wondering the last few weeks, "why the **** am I not excited about the Suns?". You'd think I was crazy to not be excited for a young team that just went to the finals. But something always just felt off about the team no matter how hard I tried to drum up excitement. It's very difficult to put it into words. Why does something feel off about this team? It's a feeling that is a bit like expecting the roof to cave in at any moment - or or when you simply shove a mess under the carpet.
Yeah, I agree with the Doncic sentiment. I think that's a big part of it. Heck I'd have settled for SGA + Booker on their current giant contracts and send everyone else to the shadow realm. Then just grab like Rubio and Theis on cheap contracts to fill it out lmao. There is also no doubt in my mind if Haliburton was given a massive opportunity alongside Booker here that he'd be seen as an incredible up and comer. You'd have to take that surely over CP3's massive contract.
I really do think last year was our only chance. We didn't get it, and now we have hit our ceiling and are over the cap. This has to be another source of why we don't feel good about the team. Ultimately this can be the worst position to be in as a team - maxed out cap room with little room for improvement.
At some level, people are not stupid. People can see how good a lot of these players are (Jokic, Giannis, KD, Harden etc.) and how stacked these teams are. Can we beat them? Sure, but it's not **** likely and anyone who is sane will tell you that.
I'm almost more excited at the prospect of just blowing it up, or at least relieved that we did not extend Ayton. Max contract? haha no thank you. That's the best thing we've done all offseason.
I've been feeling the same way in terms of not being excited about this season. I think it's in part because we are used to an extra 2-3 months before the year starts and knowing we have a new player and team development to look forward to. We saw that culminate in a finals run that felt like it was destiny/meant to be, with Paul getting his first ring. But something happened and we couldn't finish it. Game 4 in Milwaukee was the killer. Had we hung on, I don't believe we blow that big lead to start game 5. All that pressure would have stayed on the Bucks and the Suns and crowd would have been feeling the title in our grasp.
Now, we are still here. Bad start to the season doesn't help but if we are to have any chance, we need to see these guys develop even more and make noise. It's possible they do have burnout as well. As the season goes, we might see them improve more and go on a run. The crazy thing is, there's nobody in the west a contender should fear (including us). If you told me Dallas, Utah, or Denver would reach the finals this year, I wouldn't laugh it off.
The thing to remember is, Denver, Utah, Toronto, Philly...these are teams dealing with playoff defeat every single year. We burst through on our first shot and that doesn't help our fan-psyche. We now expect a championship when we really should have been hoping for advancing to the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs. It's supposed to take time. Gotta trust Saver doesn't screw it up and that our team can improve
sunskerr wrote:We have built such a weak foundation to the team. We have no one to take over after CP3. All our draft picks since Booker are busts or just role players. Devin Booker still cannot shoot 3s. I agree that Chris Paul is holding this team together along with Booker, but they are low-tier allstars at this point. It feels like we have reached our ceiling and there isn't much to be excited about even after a finals run. Once CP3 truly falls apart, we will be over the cap with Booker as our only offensive creator.
We can post all we want about Ayton's 18 ppg rookie season and his TS%, but it doesn't mean jack for developing as an offensive weapon because he's not taking anyone off the dribble, getting to the line, shooting 3s or fadeaways. You cannot just suddenly bust those moves out of nowhere after 4 years of being assisted on 70-80% of your shots. There is basically 0 chance he gets to the level of, say, Towns. I hope to god he reaches Goberts level of defensive impact.
As for Mikal, I hope he can get better. But it's a damn long road to getting to be a 2nd or even 3rd option for a contender. I'll give him some more games but it's not likely. It's kind of a bummer to be honest to watch 2nd year guys or even rookies seemingly play better right out of the gate (Bane, Franz). Heck even Miles Bridges looks like he's ballooned into a force.
Cam Johnson is a bang average player and nobody would realize if he was included with Ayton in a package for a bigger player. Dunno why people go crazy for him. Again, it's disappointing watching 1st and 2nd year guys seemingly leapfrog him from the start.
As for Jalen Smith...just lol why even draft him.
I seem to be noticing a pattern here where we have a chance to get the 2nd all star playmaker next to Devin Booker and opt for role player bigs or wings.
Anyway, that's what I really feel. I've been more excited to watch Memphis and Houston than I have the Suns. It's just so hard sometimes to watch the team knowing what players we could have had even when we succeed.
Not only are we playing like trash but our attendance is not good either. There seems to be little excitement with this team from anyone, that includes virtually this entire board.
I agree with your entire post. I thought the nonsense ended with the departure of McDonough. He at least drafted Booker and reportedly wanted to draft Doncic. Right now I would take a team with Doncic and Booker on it and you could trash everyone else. That includes Ayton, Mikal and Cam Johnson.
That's for both of you. It's Nov 1st.... you wanna wait another week or 2 before you start demanding JJ and Monty's heads?
I love how Sarver escapes your angry wrath here. Since you know, if we fire those guys you 2 are whining about-he'd be the one to hire new faces.
Also, who is taking a job at a place where you go to the finals, then 2 weeks into the next season you're fired? Who are these mysterious executives and coaches?
lilfishi22 wrote:I think it is that simple. You could throw in the LT and roster spot as rationale but ultimately, he's not worth it.
Is there any other great reason to keep him past this season other than maybe to use him in a trade? Because I think if you ask the Zach Lowe question of whether you could get 85% of a player's production for the vet min or 1/3 of the price, the answer is probably yes? Could you get a Jon Henson or a Biyombo type on the minimum to give you 85% of what Smith has given us? Or if you had $4.6m, could you better use on someone like Trez, Thad Young or Ibaka type next off season?
You are talking about right now though. Not where he might be next year. Are you expecting zero growth? Year two is the year most players grow the most.
But the main point is, that $4 million costs a lot more than $4 million. If we were right around the cap I don't think they'd think twice about picking it up unless they didn't feel good about their training staff.
When we're in a championship window with a Chris Paul turning 37 during this post-season, it kinda is about the now isn't it? What are the opportunity costs if we had committed to Smith next season at $4.7m or $6m the season after. Even if I expect better than expected growth, will that be out-performing a vet that might be available for $5m? And it's not just counting stats. Experience, leadership and performance are all considerations when you're spending $5m on a guy on a title contender. With improvement, at best we're getting some decent stats but what about the playoff experience, leadership and not being afraid of the moment. If I could get a guy like McGee for $5m (which is already an overpay), a guy with 3 titles to his name, you know that guy has seen it all, knows his fit and understands what he needs to do to bring the best out of himself and the team.
It's all about margin for error on a title contender and with Jalen Smith on $4.7m, there's just too many unknowns. And you're right, if we weren't right at the LT, we may have just bit the bullet and gave him another year but we don't choose the deadlines and the deadline was today and we had to make that decision.
And if he plays somewhat well this season (in practice and in-game), it doesn't preclude us from the admittedly unlikely scenario that we bring him back on a cheaper deal.
It is about now. But it was in our SSOL days and we traded or sold all our picks and didn't have any future to build on when Nash got old, we traded Marion and Amare. With expensive contracts, rookie deals are good.
Other players have looked good in their second seasons at times, like Cam Johnson, helped us win now. Payne came back after being awful for years and dropped by teams to look solid.
Looking bad in garbage minutes you rarely got the ball is way to early to judge, but I know some of you feel you have enough to go on.
I think he he has an opportunity elsewhere he takes it over a cheaper deal with us unless we just integrate him, give him a nice part and he loves it in Phx. Ultimately it's not a big deal but personally I would not give up on a pick after less than a year, not a guy you felt strongly enough to take over many guys rated higher. If not Haliburton, I wish they took Bane who we liked and has played better than other guys mentioned like Vassell, and other guys the Suns liked, like Nesmith.
Though maybe we would have cut those guys too and not given them minutes and everyone would have thought they sucked. Memphis is very good with player development and getting guys involved early.
We will fall behind quickly once Paul falls off, not only because of that, since other core guys should progress and maybe Payne could start or Booker run point, but because we don't have a first round pick for 2 years...guys that could be in 2nd and 3rd years when Paul is gone (or 3rd and 4th if he plays 3 years).
Anyway, we have different philosophies on this stuff obviously so no need for a long back and forth.
As far as I look at it, if you don't want to pay for a contender, as Zach Lowe has said, sell the team.
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted: Monty Williams said “it’s hard” in regards to Jalen Smith not getting the kind of opportunity most NBA rookies get to grow: https://t.co/VbRmVfRLGd
Given this nice small post I will respond to your very very very long post earlier which I scanned and saw a couple things worth responding to.
While they DID say anything less than a championship is a disappointment, and they also said something that may have seemed contradictory, in that they expected Jalen to get 10-15 minutes on a lower seed playoff team....
I simply don't think they expected to be in contention and they would be a lower seed playoff team and he WOULD get that opportunity last year. Obviously Monty seems to like his work ethic but on a contender no rookies see playing time.
I'm sure they would have preferred keeping him but know that luxury tax and money is too big a part of the equation to invest so much money in developing a guy when it will be hard to get him on the floor for what they view as a contender.
sunskerr wrote:We have built such a weak foundation to the team. We have no one to take over after CP3. All our draft picks since Booker are busts or just role players. Devin Booker still cannot shoot 3s. I agree that Chris Paul is holding this team together along with Booker, but they are low-tier allstars at this point. It feels like we have reached our ceiling and there isn't much to be excited about even after a finals run. Once CP3 truly falls apart, we will be over the cap with Booker as our only offensive creator.
We can post all we want about Ayton's 18 ppg rookie season and his TS%, but it doesn't mean jack for developing as an offensive weapon because he's not taking anyone off the dribble, getting to the line, shooting 3s or fadeaways. You cannot just suddenly bust those moves out of nowhere after 4 years of being assisted on 70-80% of your shots. There is basically 0 chance he gets to the level of, say, Towns. I hope to god he reaches Goberts level of defensive impact.
As for Mikal, I hope he can get better. But it's a damn long road to getting to be a 2nd or even 3rd option for a contender. I'll give him some more games but it's not likely. It's kind of a bummer to be honest to watch 2nd year guys or even rookies seemingly play better right out of the gate (Bane, Franz). Heck even Miles Bridges looks like he's ballooned into a force.
Cam Johnson is a bang average player and nobody would realize if he was included with Ayton in a package for a bigger player. Dunno why people go crazy for him. Again, it's disappointing watching 1st and 2nd year guys seemingly leapfrog him from the start.
As for Jalen Smith...just lol why even draft him.
I seem to be noticing a pattern here where we have a chance to get the 2nd all star playmaker next to Devin Booker and opt for role player bigs or wings.
Anyway, that's what I really feel. I've been more excited to watch Memphis and Houston than I have the Suns. It's just so hard sometimes to watch the team knowing what players we could have had even when we succeed.
It's quite amazing you can say there isn't much to get excited about after 8-11 years really sucking and completely taking draft busts, to drafting quality guys in Bridges, Ayton, Cam, getting Payne instead of Okobo, Tyler Johnson, Mike James, etc, and making a run.
I know you are not high on Ayton or Mikal which seems odd, but ok. Few Cs are go to offensive weapons as that is not the way the game is played today. You get easy rim buckets or 3s for the most part. Although it worked out well last season, relying on so many midrange shots is not necessarily a good strategy either, Luckily we have two elite guys. But it does no favors for your C either who will be crowded in the paint constantly when defenses know they can cheat way off Book and CP3.
Bridges and Ayton have shown development in creating their own shot...they just rarely get the opportunity. I don't know what to say about it, if they get limited shots and show extreme efficiency and the ability to create their own shot this past year, what more they can do. Our offense isn't really set up that way. Bridges is directed to stay at the 3 pt line to give space to Ayton and our midrange guys.
If Booker gets to where he is our main ball handler, post Paul, and gets to say 9 or 10 ast per game, or close to that, Bridges and Ayton will get FAR more shots, for a couple of reasons, but primarily because Paul is gone. When Paul is one of the best players in the history of the NBA and one of the most clutch, you can't not use him, and Book, by nature, is going to take near 20 shots a game, even if he isn't shooting well to start.
Who all creates shots for teams like Utah, Memphis, LAL, LAC, Denver, Philly, Milwaukee, Boston, NY, Atl, Portland, Dallas, etc. More than about 2 guys? Maybe the Bulls have 3 in Vuc, LaVine and DeRozan, but not too many do.
sunskerr wrote:We have built such a weak foundation to the team. We have no one to take over after CP3. All our draft picks since Booker are busts or just role players. Devin Booker still cannot shoot 3s. I agree that Chris Paul is holding this team together along with Booker, but they are low-tier allstars at this point. It feels like we have reached our ceiling and there isn't much to be excited about even after a finals run. Once CP3 truly falls apart, we will be over the cap with Booker as our only offensive creator.
We can post all we want about Ayton's 18 ppg rookie season and his TS%, but it doesn't mean jack for developing as an offensive weapon because he's not taking anyone off the dribble, getting to the line, shooting 3s or fadeaways. You cannot just suddenly bust those moves out of nowhere after 4 years of being assisted on 70-80% of your shots. There is basically 0 chance he gets to the level of, say, Towns. I hope to god he reaches Goberts level of defensive impact.
As for Mikal, I hope he can get better. But it's a damn long road to getting to be a 2nd or even 3rd option for a contender. I'll give him some more games but it's not likely. It's kind of a bummer to be honest to watch 2nd year guys or even rookies seemingly play better right out of the gate (Bane, Franz). Heck even Miles Bridges looks like he's ballooned into a force.
Cam Johnson is a bang average player and nobody would realize if he was included with Ayton in a package for a bigger player. Dunno why people go crazy for him. Again, it's disappointing watching 1st and 2nd year guys seemingly leapfrog him from the start.
As for Jalen Smith...just lol why even draft him.
I seem to be noticing a pattern here where we have a chance to get the 2nd all star playmaker next to Devin Booker and opt for role player bigs or wings.
Anyway, that's what I really feel. I've been more excited to watch Memphis and Houston than I have the Suns. It's just so hard sometimes to watch the team knowing what players we could have had even when we succeed.
Not only are we playing like trash but our attendance is not good either. There seems to be little excitement with this team from anyone, that includes virtually this entire board.
I agree with your entire post. I thought the nonsense ended with the departure of McDonough. He at least drafted Booker and reportedly wanted to draft Doncic. Right now I would take a team with Doncic and Booker on it and you could trash everyone else. That includes Ayton, Mikal and Cam Johnson.
McD DID NOT want to draft Doncic. All he talked about was drafting a big. He wanted Ayton from day 1, clear as day. He said Doncic reminded him of Hedo. He didn't scout Doncic. Sarver and Jones did, and the report was that Sarver was enamored with him. There is this assumption that we took Ayton because of Sarver but that's not the case.
Puff wrote:Not only are we playing like trash but our attendance is not good either. There seems to be little excitement with this team from anyone, that includes virtually this entire board.
I agree with your entire post. I thought the nonsense ended with the departure of McDonough. He at least drafted Booker and reportedly wanted to draft Doncic. Right now I would take a team with Doncic and Booker on it and you could trash everyone else. That includes Ayton, Mikal and Cam Johnson.
I've often found myself wondering the last few weeks, "why the **** am I not excited about the Suns?". You'd think I was crazy to not be excited for a young team that just went to the finals. But something always just felt off about the team no matter how hard I tried to drum up excitement. It's very difficult to put it into words. Why does something feel off about this team? It's a feeling that is a bit like expecting the roof to cave in at any moment - or or when you simply shove a mess under the carpet.
Yeah, I agree with the Doncic sentiment. I think that's a big part of it. Heck I'd have settled for SGA + Booker on their current giant contracts and send everyone else to the shadow realm. Then just grab like Rubio and Theis on cheap contracts to fill it out lmao. There is also no doubt in my mind if Haliburton was given a massive opportunity alongside Booker here that he'd be seen as an incredible up and comer. You'd have to take that surely over CP3's massive contract.
I really do think last year was our only chance. We didn't get it, and now we have hit our ceiling and are over the cap. This has to be another source of why we don't feel good about the team. Ultimately this can be the worst position to be in as a team - maxed out cap room with little room for improvement.
At some level, people are not stupid. People can see how good a lot of these players are (Jokic, Giannis, KD, Harden etc.) and how stacked these teams are. Can we beat them? Sure, but it's not **** likely and anyone who is sane will tell you that.
I'm almost more excited at the prospect of just blowing it up, or at least relieved that we did not extend Ayton. Max contract? haha no thank you. That's the best thing we've done all offseason.
I've been feeling the same way in terms of not being excited about this season. I think it's in part because we are used to an extra 2-3 months before the year starts and knowing we have a new player and team development to look forward to. We saw that culminate in a finals run that felt like it was destiny/meant to be, with Paul getting his first ring. But something happened and we couldn't finish it. Game 4 in Milwaukee was the killer. Had we hung on, I don't believe we blow that big lead to start game 5. All that pressure would have stayed on the Bucks and the Suns and crowd would have been feeling the title in our grasp.
Now, we are still here. Bad start to the season doesn't help but if we are to have any chance, we need to see these guys develop even more and make noise. It's possible they do have burnout as well. As the season goes, we might see them improve more and go on a run. The crazy thing is, there's nobody in the west a contender should fear (including us). If you told me Dallas, Utah, or Denver would reach the finals this year, I wouldn't laugh it off.
The thing to remember is, Denver, Utah, Toronto, Philly...these are teams dealing with playoff defeat every single year. We burst through on our first shot and that doesn't help our fan-psyche. We now expect a championship when we really should have been hoping for advancing to the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs. It's supposed to take time. Gotta trust Saver doesn't screw it up and that our team can improve
Yeah, that was my only fear of making the finals. Expectations would be sky high as they were with D'Antoni and then blame would be thrown everywhere if we didn't get there.
I expected a 5-7 seed last year going in, and think we got lucky in some respects (our major guys were healthy...all starters), other teams dealt with massive injuries, getting throttled by COVID, etc.
And this year I don't expect a championship or necessarily a WCF run...not going in, but I think we have as good as chance as anyone with Kawhi out....besides possibly Utah who had some injuries in the Clippers series which may have cost them and would have had HCA against us.
I never get too high or low, but I retain excitement because our core is young with a lot of upside. I think we could regress with Paul but I think his impact on development has been big and that by the time he leaves we will have 3 guys that will be elite players. OG came in a year before Mikal and with the departure of Lowry (and injury to Siakam) is like there 2nd or 3rd weapon, and is developing. Bridges finished well ahead of him in defensive voting and OG didn't really progress much on offense until this year when he was not at least 4th in the pecking order.
And Bridges is a very high IQ player who makes an enormous impact on both sides due to his defense and elite efficiency. Taking "create your own shots" on reduced efficiency makes us lose ground on teams rather than utilize highly efficient shots. That is why the NBA has changed so much...to maximize the shots to be at the rim or a 3 ball. I am unsure why so many are hung up on wanting everyone to create their own shot for short and midrange shots. They are not the shots that win you games if you take them consistently all game.
Now if you have 3 superstars, that might be different, including 1 of the best offensive players all time in KD, that is different, but is kind of rare.
I think it's safe to assume that CP3's hole will be patched with a proven veteran once he retires considering we've shown minimal interest in developing players in recent years, right or wrong. Not having them now doesn't mean we're going back to Isaiah Canaan post-CP3, and we saw in the bubble that our core can still be competitive with a Ricky Rubio-level veteran point guard.
It's pretty easy to nitpick our situation, but there are very few teams that are simultaneously contenders and set up well for the future. We're in solid shape with Booker, Bridges, and (eventually) Ayton locked up and still coming into their primes. We also (likely) only have this year's first round pick out of our control, so we'll still have ways to improve our roster going forward. It'll be about filling the gaps with quality role players, and we've done that pretty well so far.
As for the lack of enthusiasm, it's tough to get up for the regular season so quickly after we just got our hearts crushed in the finals. The regular season doesn't mean a whole lot to a team that was just in the finals and expects to make the playoffs again, and I'm sure the slow start isn't inspiring enthusiasm in fans either. It'll be back once the Suns start looking like themselves again and go on a winning streak.
Yep! 
