Tatum VS Luka

[Ambrose]

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Thankfully context exists, and we all saw Butler, while hurt, still be the best player on the floor.

He had higher peaks for sure, but he also had 3 stinkers. And everyone is hurt at this point, Tatum is sure as hell playing injured.

I think Butler had the better series FWIW, but he had the luxury of going 1 on 1.

Well we have direct evidence of Butler getting knocked out of a game early via injury, hence why the stats are close. That's the context I mentioned earlier. You trying to argue this is a bad look

[Feed Your Head]

Thankfully context exists, and we all saw Butler, while hurt, still be the best player on the floor.

He had higher peaks for sure, but he also had 3 stinkers. And everyone is hurt at this point, Tatum is sure as hell playing injured.

I think Butler had the better series FWIW, but he had the luxury of going 1 on 1.

Well we have direct evidence of Butler getting knocked out of a game early via injury, hence why the stats are close. That's the context I mentioned earlier. You trying to argue this is a bad look

What am I arguing? I could be mistaken, but pretty sure I said I thought Butler had the better series. I just don’t think that there was some massive difference. Butler had the higher peaks, which I also already said, but that he had multiple stinkers, which narrows the gap. And like you said, context matters. One guy dealt with single coverage, one deal with a nonstop stream of doubles.

As for the injury thing, his knee somehow prevented him from scoring more than 19 combined in games 4/5, then with no extra rest, he was able to play 46 and 48 minutes in games 6 and 7, dropping 47 then 35? Or is it more likely he just shot 7-32 in those two games because he’s traditionally a guy who is prone to throwing up some crap games? Like against the Bucks last year.

Have fun arguing about nothing though.

[AussieCeltic]

Getting tired of the hyperbole to be honest. Perkins going on about Tatum having one of the greatest runs in nba history by a player…tf are you talking about. He’s not a one man team. He’s laid eggs throughout this postseason. Dudes getting so hyperbole then you got this Powell guy going on about Jokic can learn from Tatum…

The Celtics have their complete basketball team. Joker and Tatum are completely different players. Joker didn’t have his second or third guy. I just can’t stand stupid ass articles like that as if everyone is in the exact same scenario.

He’s had 2 bad games. But as I’ve said in another thread, prime MVP Lebron had 8, 15, 16 point games in 2011 and prime MVP Giannis had 12/14 point games in 2018.

To have a post season where you just are lights out every single game is as rare as hens teeth. Even the all time greats have lapses - especially when they’re under 25.

[Swish1906]

Give the Mavs Timelord instead of Powell and the Mavs are in the finals.

Tatums advantage is a more complete team

[GeorgeMarcus]

Give the Mavs Timelord instead of Powell and the Mavs are in the finals.

Tatums advantage is a more complete team

Come on now, the Mavs were not a Robert Williams away from beating the Warriors...

[pingpongrac]

Tatum is having a very good run on his way to the Finals (27/7/6/1/1 on 59 TS% in 41 MPG), but it's really not that close IMO. Luka is a top 3-5 player while Tatum has cemented himself as a top 10 player this season/playoffs, but the gap between 5 to 10 is pretty significant. Luka is a generational offensive talent while there are nearly a dozen players better than Tatum on the offensive end. Tatum is clearly the superior defender over Luka, but it's just not enough to close the gap.

[BodieB]

Tatum is having a very good run on his way to the Finals (27/7/6/1/1 on 59 TS% in 41 MPG), but it's really not that close IMO. Luka is a top 3-5 player while Tatum has cemented himself as a top 10 player this season/playoffs, but the gap between 5 to 10 is pretty significant. Luka is a generational offensive talent while there are nearly a dozen players better than Tatum on the offensive end. Tatum is clearly the superior defender over Luka, but it's just not enough to close the gap.

Who are these dozen players better than Tatum offensively?

[pingpongrac]

Tatum is having a very good run on his way to the Finals (27/7/6/1/1 on 59 TS% in 41 MPG), but it's really not that close IMO. Luka is a top 3-5 player while Tatum has cemented himself as a top 10 player this season/playoffs, but the gap between 5 to 10 is pretty significant. Luka is a generational offensive talent while there are nearly a dozen players better than Tatum on the offensive end. Tatum is clearly the superior defender over Luka, but it's just not enough to close the gap.

Who are these dozen players better than Tatum offensively?

Nearly a dozen. Jokic, Luka, KD, Steph, Trae and LeBron (even at his old age lol) are clearly better offensive players and then you have guys like Giannis and Embiid that can just completely dominate on the offensive end even though they aren't as skilled as Tatum. Players like Ja, Booker, Mitchell, DeRozan and Butler are probably just behind Tatum because they have some pretty clear weaknesses on the offensive end, but it's not absurd to think they're on a similar level. Harden had a really weird season and he seems to be on the downswing, but he's in that range too. That last batch of players are basically a bunch of really good 1B type options along with Tatum.

The difference between Tatum and most of those other players is that he has a clear #2 in Brown (23/7/4 on 60 TS% in 38 MPG) and he's getting solid contributions from Smart+Horford (combining for 27.5 PTS on 57 TS%) in addition to an elite defence behind him (#1 in the season and #2 in the playoffs).

[Swish1906]

Give the Mavs Timelord instead of Powell and the Mavs are in the finals.

Tatums advantage is a more complete team

Come on now, the Mavs were not a Robert Williams away from beating the Warriors...

Come on now, you couldnt check at least the box scores before your answer to my claim?

Game 2, nine point loss.
Looney 21p 12r. Mavs outrebounded by 13, Powell and Maxi combined for three boards. Looney 5 off rebounds.

Game 3, nine point loss.
Looney 12 boards. Mavs outrebounded by 14, powell and Maxi combined for six boards.

Game 5, ten point loss.
Looney 18 boards, 7 offensiv. Mavs outrebounded by 17.

Looney basically killed the Mavs in game 2 and 5 with an incredible amount of 2nd chance points created or scored by him. Had a huge impact in game 3 too.

Take away at least half of this 2nd chances for the Warriors, coupled with a few off rebounds more for the Mavs and a Luka-Timelord PnR when the 3 wasnt falling and voila.

[SelfishPlayer]

It's easier to build a championship team with Tatum than it is with Luka.

[Swish1906]

It's easier to build a championship team with Tatum than it is with Luka.

Luka is the way better halfcourt player, so now its not

[SelfishPlayer]

It's easier to build a championship team with Tatum than it is with Luka.

Luka is the way better halfcourt player, so now its not

Luka is too ball dominant and doesn't play much defense. Tatum plays defense and allows for more versatility in roster construction being that he doesn't need specific kinds of players around him, he's not needy. Just put good NBA players around Tatum, not "shooters" and/or "guys that understand they will not get the ball." Tatum plays team basketball, while Luka is the team. Luka doesn't play much defense so that approach will never work without him playing with a player as good as Steph Curry, Durant, Shaq, etc... You can't build a Pistons style champion with Luka while you can with Tatum. Luka is his own organization for better or worse.

[BodieB]

Tatum is having a very good run on his way to the Finals (27/7/6/1/1 on 59 TS% in 41 MPG), but it's really not that close IMO. Luka is a top 3-5 player while Tatum has cemented himself as a top 10 player this season/playoffs, but the gap between 5 to 10 is pretty significant. Luka is a generational offensive talent while there are nearly a dozen players better than Tatum on the offensive end. Tatum is clearly the superior defender over Luka, but it's just not enough to close the gap.

Who are these dozen players better than Tatum offensively?

Nearly a dozen. Jokic, Luka, KD, Steph, Trae and LeBron (even at his old age lol) are clearly better offensive players and then you have guys like Giannis and Embiid that can just completely dominate on the offensive end even though they aren't as skilled as Tatum. Players like Ja, Booker, Mitchell, DeRozan and Butler are probably just behind Tatum because they have some pretty clear weaknesses on the offensive end, but it's not absurd to think they're on a similar level. Harden had a really weird season and he seems to be on the downswing, but he's in that range too. That last batch of players are basically a bunch of really good 1B type options along with Tatum.

The difference between Tatum and most of those other players is that he has a clear #2 in Brown (23/7/4 on 60 TS% in 38 MPG) and he's getting solid contributions from Smart+Horford (combining for 27.5 PTS on 57 TS%) in addition to an elite defence behind him (#1 in the season and #2 in the playoffs).

Well outside of the names it looks like you forced in there at the end (DeRozan, Butler, Ja), most of the one's that you state are clearly better are arguable.

[SelfishPlayer]

Give Tatum credit for not simply having Brown on his team, but NEVER getting in Brown's way. Brown could have been deemed a "poor fit" with Tatum. People have tried making Brown the scapegoat in the past but smart people knew all the Celtics needed was a point guard.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Give the Mavs Timelord instead of Powell and the Mavs are in the finals.

Tatums advantage is a more complete team

Come on now, the Mavs were not a Robert Williams away from beating the Warriors...

Come on now, you couldnt check at least the box scores before your answer to my claim?

Game 2, nine point loss.
Looney 21p 12r. Mavs outrebounded by 13, Powell and Maxi combined for three boards. Looney 5 off rebounds.

Game 3, nine point loss.
Looney 12 boards. Mavs outrebounded by 14, powell and Maxi combined for six boards.

Game 5, ten point loss.
Looney 18 boards, 7 offensiv. Mavs outrebounded by 17.

Looney basically killed the Mavs in game 2 and 5 with an incredible amount of 2nd chance points created or scored by him. Had a huge impact in game 3 too.

Take away at least half of this 2nd chances for the Warriors, coupled with a few off rebounds more for the Mavs and a Luka-Timelord PnR when the 3 wasnt falling and voila.

The bolded is a solid way to start your post for no reason lol

The victim of a gentleman's sweep lost by an average of 13.25 pts (no less than 9 in any game) and that's suppose to help their case?

[pingpongrac]

Who are these dozen players better than Tatum offensively?

Nearly a dozen. Jokic, Luka, KD, Steph, Trae and LeBron (even at his old age lol) are clearly better offensive players and then you have guys like Giannis and Embiid that can just completely dominate on the offensive end even though they aren't as skilled as Tatum. Players like Ja, Booker, Mitchell, DeRozan and Butler are probably just behind Tatum because they have some pretty clear weaknesses on the offensive end, but it's not absurd to think they're on a similar level. Harden had a really weird season and he seems to be on the downswing, but he's in that range too. That last batch of players are basically a bunch of really good 1B type options along with Tatum.

The difference between Tatum and most of those other players is that he has a clear #2 in Brown (23/7/4 on 60 TS% in 38 MPG) and he's getting solid contributions from Smart+Horford (combining for 27.5 PTS on 57 TS%) in addition to an elite defence behind him (#1 in the season and #2 in the playoffs).

Well outside of the names it looks like you forced in there at the end (DeRozan, Butler, Ja), most of the one's that you state are clearly better are arguable.

I'd love to hear reasoning as to why Tatum is a better offensive player than any of Jokic, Luka, KD, Steph, Trae, LeBron, Giannis or Embiid. The only ones from that list that are remotely debatable are Trae (because he's small) and LeBron (because he's nearing 40), but the rest are very clearly better on the offensive end.

[Froob]

Probably Luka. Tatum is awesome but, Luka may be a top 12-15 player all time when it’s all done.

[Exp0sed]

Give the Mavs Timelord instead of Powell and the Mavs are in the finals.

Tatums advantage is a more complete team

Come on now, the Mavs were not a Robert Williams away from beating the Warriors...

a healthy Robert Williams?
That's pretty close..

Powell is one of the most useless Centers in the league, it's not like going from a serviceable center to a good one - the production gap is quite significant

Timelord has been a monster this season

Heck, Powell played very little (as a result of being utterly useless vs the Dubs specifically) and we got to see Kidd's shining moments of playing Bertans at Center

if you don't think going from Bertans to Williams is huge..then Idk what to tell ya

if the Mavs don't choke game 3, we are already at 4-2..far from one sided

Williams isn't healthy and isn't going to be healthy in the finals so it seems but a healthy Williams is a matchup nightmare for the dubs as It forces them to play Looney, while being ok he's not a threat offensively when you have some1 to keep him off the boards\lobs etc
and that makes defending the Dubs perimeter players so much easier

If they don't play Looney..Timelord can feast, they have 0 guys that can contain his physically, box him out etc.

edit: Luka's biggest flaw, his lateral quickness on D which is especially problematic vs the Dubs would look dramatically different when there's a real rim protector lying in wait
When Williams is healthy his rim protection is elite, he changes so many shots..not to mention block etc

[Darthlukey]

It's easier to build a championship team with Tatum than it is with Luka.

Luka is the way better halfcourt player, so now its not

Luka is too ball dominant and doesn't play much defense. Tatum plays defense and allows for more versatility in roster construction being that he doesn't need specific kinds of players around him, he's not needy. Just put good NBA players around Tatum, not "shooters" and/or "guys that understand they will not get the ball." Tatum plays team basketball, while Luka is the team. Luka doesn't play much defense so that approach will never work without him playing with a player as good as Steph Curry, Durant, Shaq, etc... You can't build a Pistons style champion with Luka while you can with Tatum. Luka is his own organization for better or worse.

The defence is a factor that can't be ignored. Don't get me wrong, in a vacuum I don't know I would pick between the two if I was starting a team, and that's coming from a celtics fan. But ignoring the value of defence and not being targeted on defence is a big deal

[Bob8]

Give the Mavs Timelord instead of Powell and the Mavs are in the finals.

Tatums advantage is a more complete team

Come on now, the Mavs were not a Robert Williams away from beating the Warriors...

Maybe they weren't, but that was their far the biggest weakness. Curry&co. shooting wise weren't unsurmountable obstacle, lack of rim protection and rebounding were.

You can't look at point difference in series. Mavs win game 2 and/or 3 and we have totally different series.

Yes, all that is academic now, nobody knows what would have happened, if Mavs had better C, but it's obvious C position was the biggest mismatch in this series.