RealGM

charley barkles wrote:I would argue that he already is the best TRUE center the Suns have ever had. (assuming Amare and Alvan Adams are more of a PF, although they played the 5 sometimes.) Who else was better? A washed up Shaq? Gortat? Mark West?

I think once Ayton is used in a role that doesn't have him standing at the top of arc handing the ball off to G-league PGs, we'll see him really be able to dominate games. Look what Rubio did for Gobert. I wouldn't be surprised to see him average 22 & 12 next year.

How dare you not include Andrew Lang!

LOL, just kidding .... but honestly he was my favorite Sun for a very long time (aside from KJ).

bwgood77 wrote:

Crives wrote:

RaisingArizona wrote:
The Raptors had THE BEST player in the NBA and probably still lose if Durant and Thompson don't go down. The need for multiple stars is necessary. Also, I don't see Ayton as a star. His numbers looked okay but guy was lost a lot last year. He needs a huge improvement to even be in the star conversation.

Compare Aytons rookie stats to great bigs like DHoward and AD and you will see why we are hopeful he will turn into a star.

Offensively he looks good, but defensively very bad in comparison...by any metric. Half the blocks. Can't even average 1 a game. That's the most important thing for a C.

I have high hopes of course...it would be stupid not to.

As terrible as his help defense was... I thought Aytons perimeter defense was very impressive.

LukasBMW wrote:Great to have Oube back.

I still hate the TJ trade. We're going to miss his scoring.

I also don't understand the Rubio signing. Most of our roster moves this summer focused on shooting, and Rubio might be the worst shooter in the NBA.

With Rubio and Saric both being willing passers, the ball might move a bit better through Ayton/Booker/Oubre, so we might be fun to watch...until teams figure out that they can just double whoever has the ball and leave Rubio wide open.

Rubio's contract also kills our cap space for next year. But I guess it does give us some money to move if the right trade opportunity comes up.

Just to be clear there were 84 players in the league that are worse shooters than Rubio last season. Also, over half of Rubio's shots came from beyond the three and he is not considered a high volume shooter. Booker's three point shot has suffered since he took over the majority of the ball handling and was forced to take long threes at the end of the clock. I imagine it is the same for Rubio. However, with better passers all around hopefully those last second shots are minimized.

http://bkref.com/tiny/VqWvR

LukasBMW wrote:Lineup:

Rubio/Bumpy
Booker
Oubre/Bridges
Saric/Frank
Ayton/Baynes

-Bumpy, Bridges, and Baynes will be our 6th, 7th, and 8th guys off the bench.

-Bridges may challenge Oubre for the starting job, but I think it is Oubre's to lose. You know he wants it.

-Cam will have to prove he is worth minutes. If he does well, I bet he gets time at the 2 spot.

Pretty spot on, though I suspect all of Bridges, Tyler and Ty can shift over to the 2 more easily than Cam, whom I think we will try to play as a SF version of JJ Redick, hiding him on defense as much as possible. If Cam be as effective an off ball threat and knock down threes as steadily as he did in college, he'll push for rotation minutes immediately. With Oubre likely starting, Cam has a chance to be our primary perimeter scoring option whenever Booker and Oubre are out of the lineup.

LukasBMW wrote:- I'm excited for our PG prospects to develop slowly and I hope Okobo, Ty, and Lecque are open to spending time in Flagstaff and competing for that 3rd backup spot.

I'm sure Lecque spends most of this year in the G League. Ty, OTOH, I expect to push for rotation minutes right out the gate, especially if "Bumpy" is dealing with any lingering injury issues. I think Carter will be PG insurance, and after him... Jared Harper might get a call. I think Okobo should go to Europe.

Probably because I'm perpetually optimistic about our young players (certain posters are happy to provide research on this fact), by the end of the year, I'm looking for something like:

Rubio/Jerome/Johnson
Booker/Bridges
Oubre/Johnson
Saric/Kaminsky
Ayton/Baynes

Still need another big who can fill out the rotation if one of Saric, Ayton or Baynes gets injured. Need someone who can rebound the ball and block a shot or two. I'd expect a free agency announcement in the coming days to address that.

charley barkles wrote:

Barkley6 wrote:

RaisingArizona wrote:
The Raptors had THE BEST player in the NBA and probably still lose if Durant and Thompson don't go down. The need for multiple stars is necessary. Also, I don't see Ayton as a star. His numbers looked okay but guy was lost a lot last year. He needs a huge improvement to even be in the star conversation.

But that's just it. He looked lost and confused a lot, but still put up 16 and 10. That's why people think he can be so good. If he gets the game figured out and settles down, he could be the best true center the Suns have ever had.

I would argue that he already is the best TRUE center the Suns have ever had. (assuming Amare and Alvan Adams are more of a PF, although they played the 5 sometimes.) Who else was better? A washed up Shaq? Gortat? Mark West?

I think once Ayton is used in a role that doesn't have him standing at the top of arc handing the ball off to G-league PGs, we'll see him really be able to dominate games. Look what Rubio did for Gobert. I wouldn't be surprised to see him average 22 & 12 next year.

No Adams was a center. He was the starter at center for most of his career. He defended against Kareem and other great centers during his era. He was a center back then. He put up 19pts, 9.1rbs, 5.6ast, 1.5blk, and 1.5stl his rookie year. We will see if Ayton can ever get close to this.

LukasBMW wrote:Lineup:

Rubio/Bumpy
Booker
Oubre/Bridges
Saric/Frank
Ayton/Baynes

-Bumpy, Bridges, and Baynes will be our 6th, 7th, and 8th guys off the bench..

I think Williams will experiment before settling on a rotation most projections are overlooking (thus why the hole is at 3/4 or 4).

Rubio / TJ
Booker / Bridges / TJ
Oubre / Bridges / Cam

Saric / Kaminsky / ______ / Oubre
Ayton / Kaminsky / Baynes or future replacement

*rookies are difficult to pencil in. Historically Johnson 1000 or so minutes and Jerome maybe 600.

enigmatics wrote:

Waylay13 wrote:you are missing the point, build your team around 2 stars (Booker and Ayton, or think Jordan and Pippen, or Shaq and Kobe) then you build the others players to match up with their style and play. Adding a number star player isnt what is needed if Booker and Ayton become the player that the Suns leadership believes they can become. I believe that Bridges is going to be an almost perfect player to place around them and Ty Jerome in a couple more years might be at the point he can run the offense well with them. Saric might work out but I would like to see more shot blocking out of our front line.

The common sense plane has requested landing on the Sunsduece tarmac multiple times, but has gotten no response from the aviation tower.

I dunno how many times the point you re-illustrated needs to be made to people who are bagging on the Suns offseason.

Your common sense is fantasy land sense. I only deal with reality. Reality says Suns had a bad offseason. I see people like you try so hard to church up this mess (and tell me I’m missing the point. The only thing missing is the suns from the playoffs). There was no clear cut rhyme or reason to the nonsense that has transpired over the last 4 months.

There are reasons you won’t find fans of good teams being “cool” with the type of offseason the suns have had. There are reasons you don’t find people praising the Suns offseason. Because people live in reality.

The problem is you have become so use to losing, that you rationalize nonsense to the point you will create long drawn out paragraphs trying to explain why the suns were so successful while their record never matches up with your “common sense”.

Reality is wins and losses. That’s it. Everyone in sports is judged by Wins and Losses. But I do enjoy your common sense posts you create telling me how great this team is under James Jones and how dumb all of us doubters are and how we “miss the point”.

Sunsdeuce wrote:

enigmatics wrote:

Waylay13 wrote:you are missing the point, build your team around 2 stars (Booker and Ayton, or think Jordan and Pippen, or Shaq and Kobe) then you build the others players to match up with their style and play. Adding a number star player isnt what is needed if Booker and Ayton become the player that the Suns leadership believes they can become. I believe that Bridges is going to be an almost perfect player to place around them and Ty Jerome in a couple more years might be at the point he can run the offense well with them. Saric might work out but I would like to see more shot blocking out of our front line.

The common sense plane has requested landing on the Sunsduece tarmac multiple times, but has gotten no response from the aviation tower.

I dunno how many times the point you re-illustrated needs to be made to people who are bagging on the Suns offseason.

Your common sense is fantasy land sense. I only deal with reality. Reality says Suns had a bad offseason. I see people like you try so hard to church up this mess (and tell me I’m missing the point. The only thing missing is the suns from the playoffs). There was no clear cut rhyme or reason to the nonsense that has transpired over the last 4 months.

There are reasons you won’t find fans of good teams being “cool” with the type of offseason the suns have had. There are reasons you don’t find people praising the Suns offseason. Because people live in reality.

The problem is you have become so use to losing, that you rationalize nonsense to the point you will create long drawn out paragraphs trying to explain why the suns were so successful while their record never matches up with your “common sense”.

Reality is wins and losses. That’s it. Everyone in sports is judged by Wins and Losses. But I do enjoy your common sense posts you create telling me how great this team is under James Jones and how dumb all of us doubters are and how we “miss the point”.

The beauty of sports with a scoreboard. The results will be the results. Yes, the Suns can be an improved team with
-- improving their points per possession percentage
-- being a better defensive team. (and I get Rome won't be built in a day so maybe like Williams wants, better transition D)
-- better assist to turnover ratio
--higher overall FG percentage

But end of the day - there will be a W-L record that will ultimately show the improvement of the team. Though like I said, they may improve in a lot of the above areas and still lose games. Just maybe they won't be down 36-9 at the end of the first period two games in a row or have a 17 game losing streak.

Sunsdeuce wrote:

enigmatics wrote:

Waylay13 wrote:you are missing the point, build your team around 2 stars (Booker and Ayton, or think Jordan and Pippen, or Shaq and Kobe) then you build the others players to match up with their style and play. Adding a number star player isnt what is needed if Booker and Ayton become the player that the Suns leadership believes they can become. I believe that Bridges is going to be an almost perfect player to place around them and Ty Jerome in a couple more years might be at the point he can run the offense well with them. Saric might work out but I would like to see more shot blocking out of our front line.

The common sense plane has requested landing on the Sunsduece tarmac multiple times, but has gotten no response from the aviation tower.

I dunno how many times the point you re-illustrated needs to be made to people who are bagging on the Suns offseason.

Your common sense is fantasy land sense. I only deal with reality. Reality says Suns had a bad offseason. I see people like you try so hard to church up this mess (and tell me I’m missing the point. The only thing missing is the suns from the playoffs). There was no clear cut rhyme or reason to the nonsense that has transpired over the last 4 months.

There are reasons you won’t find fans of good teams being “cool” with the type of offseason the suns have had. There are reasons you don’t find people praising the Suns offseason. Because people live in reality.

The problem is you have become so use to losing, that you rationalize nonsense to the point you will create long drawn out paragraphs trying to explain why the suns were so successful while their record never matches up with your “common sense”.

Reality is wins and losses. That’s it. Everyone in sports is judged by Wins and Losses. But I do enjoy your common sense posts you create telling me how great this team is under James Jones and how dumb all of us doubters are and how we “miss the point”.

If you only deal with reality, and say that reality is wins and losses, how can you already claim that the Suns had a bad offseason when they have yet to win or lose a game with the new roster that has been constructed?

jcsunsfan wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:

jcsunsfan wrote:Have you actually looked at our cap situation for next year? We will have around $27 million in space ($17 million with the Saric cap hold), and there are not that many players worth that in next year's market. Even then, its the 2021 free agent period we need to look at and we are set up perfectly to compete for players there.

Saric's cap hold is only $4.7 million, but our draft pick's hold will likely be at least $5 million, so your number ends up being correct.

If we do use cap space next year, I hope it's just on one year deals to roll over the cap space to 21.

Spotrac has it at $10 million.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/phoenix-suns/cap/2020/

I think the QO offer will be in the $4.7 million range. But the QO and the cap hold are not the same thing. I have found Spotrac to be the most accurate source for this stuff.

I do expect a bunch of one year deals next summer.

Yeah, you're right. I usually use spotrac, but was looking at David from the SSOL podcast's cap sheet and he has the QO in there which makes it look like we have more cap space then we do if we give him a new contract.

Sunsdeuce wrote:

enigmatics wrote:

Waylay13 wrote:you are missing the point, build your team around 2 stars (Booker and Ayton, or think Jordan and Pippen, or Shaq and Kobe) then you build the others players to match up with their style and play. Adding a number star player isnt what is needed if Booker and Ayton become the player that the Suns leadership believes they can become. I believe that Bridges is going to be an almost perfect player to place around them and Ty Jerome in a couple more years might be at the point he can run the offense well with them. Saric might work out but I would like to see more shot blocking out of our front line.

The common sense plane has requested landing on the Sunsduece tarmac multiple times, but has gotten no response from the aviation tower.

I dunno how many times the point you re-illustrated needs to be made to people who are bagging on the Suns offseason.

Your common sense is fantasy land sense. I only deal with reality. Reality says Suns had a bad offseason. I see people like you try so hard to church up this mess (and tell me I’m missing the point. The only thing missing is the suns from the playoffs). There was no clear cut rhyme or reason to the nonsense that has transpired over the last 4 months.

There are reasons you won’t find fans of good teams being “cool” with the type of offseason the suns have had. There are reasons you don’t find people praising the Suns offseason. Because people live in reality.

The problem is you have become so use to losing, that you rationalize nonsense to the point you will create long drawn out paragraphs trying to explain why the suns were so successful while their record never matches up with your “common sense”.

Reality is wins and losses. That’s it. Everyone in sports is judged by Wins and Losses. But I do enjoy your common sense posts you create telling me how great this team is under James Jones and how dumb all of us doubters are and how we “miss the point”.

Another reality is any wins or losses have yet to occur with the group that we have put together during this offseason. I'll be more likely to judge on wins and losses once we actually get some. Nobody can really say the team is great under James Jones -- that's still guessing. His approach to some of us is refreshing but his moves may end up sucking and I'm sure a bunch of us will jump on the bandwagon and beg forgiveness for being so f'ing positive if it goes south.

matt131 wrote:

Sunsdeuce wrote:

enigmatics wrote:
The common sense plane has requested landing on the Sunsduece tarmac multiple times, but has gotten no response from the aviation tower.

I dunno how many times the point you re-illustrated needs to be made to people who are bagging on the Suns offseason.

Your common sense is fantasy land sense. I only deal with reality. Reality says Suns had a bad offseason. I see people like you try so hard to church up this mess (and tell me I’m missing the point. The only thing missing is the suns from the playoffs). There was no clear cut rhyme or reason to the nonsense that has transpired over the last 4 months.

There are reasons you won’t find fans of good teams being “cool” with the type of offseason the suns have had. There are reasons you don’t find people praising the Suns offseason. Because people live in reality.

The problem is you have become so use to losing, that you rationalize nonsense to the point you will create long drawn out paragraphs trying to explain why the suns were so successful while their record never matches up with your “common sense”.

Reality is wins and losses. That’s it. Everyone in sports is judged by Wins and Losses. But I do enjoy your common sense posts you create telling me how great this team is under James Jones and how dumb all of us doubters are and how we “miss the point”.

If you only deal with reality, and say that reality is wins and losses, how can you already claim that the Suns had a bad offseason when they have yet to win or lose a game with the new roster that has been constructed?

Well we have a decade of failure. But if they make the playoffs. I will personally send you $50. I will man up and make sure you get it. Even if you don’t live in AZ. Your point that this team was better than us naysayers think will be validated and I will literally have to PAY for being wrong.

Vault this!

You will get your money if I’m wrong. There aren’t my times I like being proven wrong but if it means my team is good and finally shows a future, I’ll feel good about being wrong and put $50 in the mail box with a smile on my face.

bigfoot wrote:

charley barkles wrote:

Barkley6 wrote:
But that's just it. He looked lost and confused a lot, but still put up 16 and 10. That's why people think he can be so good. If he gets the game figured out and settles down, he could be the best true center the Suns have ever had.

I would argue that he already is the best TRUE center the Suns have ever had. (assuming Amare and Alvan Adams are more of a PF, although they played the 5 sometimes.) Who else was better? A washed up Shaq? Gortat? Mark West?

I think once Ayton is used in a role that doesn't have him standing at the top of arc handing the ball off to G-league PGs, we'll see him really be able to dominate games. Look what Rubio did for Gobert. I wouldn't be surprised to see him average 22 & 12 next year.

No Adams was a center. He was the starter at center for most of his career. He defended against Kareem and other great centers during his era. He was a center back then. He put up 19pts, 9.1rbs, 5.6ast, 1.5blk, and 1.5stl his rookie year. We will see if Ayton can ever get close to this.

He had a far more impactful rookie year. He wasn't the efficient scorer but great passer, great defender...did a bit of everything and helped lead us to the finals.

Sunsdeuce wrote:

matt131 wrote:

Sunsdeuce wrote:
Your common sense is fantasy land sense. I only deal with reality. Reality says Suns had a bad offseason. I see people like you try so hard to church up this mess (and tell me I’m missing the point. The only thing missing is the suns from the playoffs). There was no clear cut rhyme or reason to the nonsense that has transpired over the last 4 months.

There are reasons you won’t find fans of good teams being “cool” with the type of offseason the suns have had. There are reasons you don’t find people praising the Suns offseason. Because people live in reality.

The problem is you have become so use to losing, that you rationalize nonsense to the point you will create long drawn out paragraphs trying to explain why the suns were so successful while their record never matches up with your “common sense”.

Reality is wins and losses. That’s it. Everyone in sports is judged by Wins and Losses. But I do enjoy your common sense posts you create telling me how great this team is under James Jones and how dumb all of us doubters are and how we “miss the point”.

If you only deal with reality, and say that reality is wins and losses, how can you already claim that the Suns had a bad offseason when they have yet to win or lose a game with the new roster that has been constructed?

Well we have a decade of failure. But if they make the playoffs. I will personally send you $50. I will man up and make sure you get it. Even if you don’t live in AZ. Your point that this team was better than us naysayers think will be validated and I will literally have to PAY for being wrong.

Lol this is literally the first thing I've said to you - I don't want your money but thanks haha

Mostly saying (to everyone) that the opinions about our offseason are just that: opinions. No one actually knows how this will play out, and we should all just let each other voice their opinions even if they are overly optimistic or pessimistic (as long as those opinions aren't directly attacking a poster).

We are all fans of the same team. We all want the same thing. Even if we disagree on how we are trying to get there. Go Suns!

Jarrett Carlen on Bickley and Mariotta made a good point. Basically he said, yes the suns got better but so did everyone else. Does that still make you better if w everyone else got better?

Hmmmm

RaisingArizona wrote:

bwoolf2 wrote:

Sunsdeuce wrote:
To be fair, IF and that’s a big IF, we strike out again with a star player, none of this is worth anything. We are no further ahead then we were with Babby, Blanks, or Mcd.

And again I am speculating that the “plan” is to add a star in 2021. And I’m only speculating that based off the contracts.

Not 100%, there is no rule that says you need 3 stars to win a championship, hell the Raptors had 1, If Booker and Ayton become those players they just need quality depth around them. This 3 star crap started when Lebron joined Wade and Bosh, but it is in no way a requirement for success and its more of an outlier than the standard.

The Raptors had THE BEST player in the NBA and probably still lose if Durant and Thompson don't go down. The need for multiple stars is necessary. Also, I don't see Ayton as a star. His numbers looked okay but guy was lost a lot last year. He needs a huge improvement to even be in the star conversation.

that's why I said if, and both are 22 and 21 so maybe give them a minute. and steph and klay won a few championships before Durant

Sunsdeuce wrote:Jarrett Carlen on Bickley and Mariotta made a good point. Basically he said, yes the suns got better but so did everyone else. Does that still make you better if w everyone else got better?

Hmmmm

who was it that you wanted that they could have realistically got that would have made you happy, and if you tell me a maxed out Russell I'm going to be sad, he is overrated. bro you gotta quit whining at some point at let it play out.

Sunsdeuce wrote:

matt131 wrote:

Sunsdeuce wrote:
Your common sense is fantasy land sense. I only deal with reality. Reality says Suns had a bad offseason. I see people like you try so hard to church up this mess (and tell me I’m missing the point. The only thing missing is the suns from the playoffs). There was no clear cut rhyme or reason to the nonsense that has transpired over the last 4 months.

There are reasons you won’t find fans of good teams being “cool” with the type of offseason the suns have had. There are reasons you don’t find people praising the Suns offseason. Because people live in reality.

The problem is you have become so use to losing, that you rationalize nonsense to the point you will create long drawn out paragraphs trying to explain why the suns were so successful while their record never matches up with your “common sense”.

Reality is wins and losses. That’s it. Everyone in sports is judged by Wins and Losses. But I do enjoy your common sense posts you create telling me how great this team is under James Jones and how dumb all of us doubters are and how we “miss the point”.

If you only deal with reality, and say that reality is wins and losses, how can you already claim that the Suns had a bad offseason when they have yet to win or lose a game with the new roster that has been constructed?

Well we have a decade of failure. But if they make the playoffs. I will personally send you $50. I will man up and make sure you get it. Even if you don’t live in AZ. Your point that this team was better than us naysayers think will be validated and I will literally have to PAY for being wrong.

Vault this!

You will get your money if I’m wrong. There aren’t my times I like being proven wrong but if it means my team is good and finally shows a future, I’ll feel good about being wrong and put $50 in the mail box with a smile on my face.

Why do you say we can only be considered a success if we make the playoffs? That's a very unrealistic expection to have for a 19-win team.

Sunsdeuce wrote:Jarrett Carlen on Bickley and Mariotta made a good point. Basically he said, yes the suns got better but so did everyone else. Does that still make you better if w everyone else got better?

Hmmmm

Yeah, I think we had a decent offseason relative and in comparison to our previous offseasons. In comparison with the rest of the NBA, no, not really, and much of the west got a lot better. We should have more wins and guys should develop but it will take time when your two cornerstone are early 20s.

Sunsdeuce wrote:Jarrett Carlen on Bickley and Mariotta made a good point. Basically he said, yes the suns got better but so did everyone else. Does that still make you better if w everyone else got better?

Hmmmm

The grizzlies didn’t for this year. They took a step back
Maybe the Mavs with Porzingis
Okc is not better
Has Minnesota really gotten better?
The Kings with Ariza and Joseph. Fine they are better as there young players should improve
Spurs - really??!! Not so sure they are better
The Warriors aren’t better. They are better than the Suns but they have not got better
Houston is not better. In fact with age- they are worse.

Stupid statement. If teams get better other teams get worse