2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4)

[malik959]

Recently released mock has knicks taking wiseman 6th

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-mock-draft-georgias-anthony-edwards-is-top-pick-in-tight-battle-with-several-players-for-no-1/

I love how anyone that goes 6th has a negative write up.

[robillionaire]

I thought you were anti LaMelo because you said this a few months ago

the shooting, the lack of defense, the decision making is a concern for me. Then add in the Lavar stuff (and before we go down that road)...its NY you don't think the first losing streak or first time RJ takes a last second shot instead of Lamelo are we sure Lavar wont pop off. We haven't been a model franchsie and I don't need that dude pooing off on 1st take with SAS everytime something doesn't go his son's way.

But every prospects has his flaws. He has an elite skill that very few prospects have. He is an elite playmaker.

The shooting is poor, but he has an amazing touch on floaters and his form as an off ball guy is actually good. It's off the dribble ugly. That, and the defense stinks as of now.

LaVar stuff means 0 to me. If anything, I'd get a laugh. He's a mascot.

Take his name out the equation and he's the #1 pick.

If a team that needs a PG is picking in front of us or any potential trade partner, we have no chance. The pistons suns and bulls for example would gladly take him and not even entertain a trade. He could easily go 1st

[mpharris36]

I thought you were anti LaMelo because you said this a few months ago

the shooting, the lack of defense, the decision making is a concern for me. Then add in the Lavar stuff (and before we go down that road)...its NY you don't think the first losing streak or first time RJ takes a last second shot instead of Lamelo are we sure Lavar wont pop off. We haven't been a model franchsie and I don't need that dude pooing off on 1st take with SAS everytime something doesn't go his son's way.

But every prospects has his flaws. He has an elite skill that very few prospects have. He is an elite playmaker.

The shooting is poor, but he has an amazing touch on floaters and his form as an off ball guy is actually good. It's off the dribble ugly. That, and the defense stinks as of now.

LaVar stuff means 0 to me. If anything, I'd get a laugh. He's a mascot.

Take his name out the equation and he's the #1 pick.

You can make a case for Edwards too. Dude is a straight baller he just had a very suspect year at Georgia. Now I have no idea if the environment was good for him because the team sucked and he tried to do too much. But if you looking for shooting potential, ability to be a secondary ball handler. He also has defensive potential. If you have the right development to get the most out of him. He is in the convo for the #1 pick.

[mpharris36]

my major concern is what starting backcourt in the NBA is dominant with both guys being unable to shoot? I don't see Lamelo or RJ being +35% 3 point shooters and that is low effeciency from positions that need to be able to shoot it. You would literally have to have your forwards being lights out shooters.

Thats not saying Lamelo isn't talented. And I know we aren't in a position to look at "fit" at the moment. Which is why if we are in the top 3 and he's there I probably take him.

I just refuse to trade up in this draft with lack of tier 1 talent.

[malik959]

He extends his range to the 3 and you got a really good D&3 Wing who can go in there and maybe hold their own like Draymond does defensively against Bigs. Even without the range he looks like he can be a glue guy and crash the boards well.

It would be interesting to bring him here and try to slot him at the 3/4 with Knox off the bench. That’s a lot of athleticism going at other teams reserves.

He might take Knox's lunch

That’s the point . Realistically they look like different players. Patrick looks like the forward version of Shump, Strong, on the court mean streak, will get the work done, potentially an above average defender. Knox flashes something more, if he ever figures it out.

That would make him Chandler Wilson

[WargamesX]

We need a PG and we need a PG now. We’ve needed one for decades. If we can get what I believe will be a franchise PG now, I would try to make that happen. We can’t just waste yet another year of every player’s development because we have no real floor general or playmaker and hold out on 14% chance of Cade with no real fallback options. If he’s a lot better, which I’m skeptical of, it just means it would be much harder to actually trade for him if you don’t hit the 14%. It would be like putting all our eggs in the Zion basket and then missing again. Nobody was trading that pick. We would just end up picking 8-10 next year, 86% chance of no Cade and still not have a PG. actually it would probably be like 94% from 8th

You want a PG, draft Tyrese Haliburton at 6-7.

Watch how he passes the ball. He has a skill for feeding his teammates. Everybody eats when you play with Tyrese!

[WargamesX]

He might take Knox's lunch

That’s the point . Realistically they look like different players. Patrick looks like the forward version of Shump, Strong, on the court mean streak, will get the work done, potentially an above average defender. Knox flashes something more, if he ever figures it out.

That would make him Chandler Wilson

That’s actually a really good comp

[mpharris36]

We need a PG and we need a PG now. We’ve needed one for decades. If we can get what I believe will be a franchise PG now, I would try to make that happen. We can’t just waste yet another year of every player’s development because we have no real floor general or playmaker and hold out on 14% chance of Cade with no real fallback options. If he’s a lot better, which I’m skeptical of, it just means it would be much harder to actually trade for him if you don’t hit the 14%. It would be like putting all our eggs in the Zion basket and then missing again. Nobody was trading that pick. We would just end up picking 8-10 next year, 86% chance of no Cade and still not have a PG. actually it would probably be like 94% from 8th

You want a PG, draft Tyrese Haliburton at 6-7.

Watch how he passes the ball. He has a skill for feeding his teammates. Everybody eats when you play with Tyrese!

He probably pairs the best with RJ in terms of him being a knock down shooter and playing both on and off the ball.

My concern with him is can he be the #1 playmaker on the team? Probably not. So you would have basically two #2 guys in Haliburton and RJ...but no #1 guy.

Hayes has his flaws but I see the most upside because at his best he can be the #1 playmaker. But he probably has a lower floor than Haliburton. But like Sham says...we just gotta keep shootin our shot and hope something sticks, right? No point in going safe with draft picks just go big and if you fail you fail.

Haliburton has defense and 3 point shooting over both Lamelo and Hayes (which is something this team needs from the guard position).

But he doesn't have nearly there playmaking abilities by consistently getting into the paint and being a main ball handler.

[robillionaire]

my major concern is what starting backcourt in the NBA is dominant with both guys being unable to shoot? I don't see Lamelo or RJ being +35% 3 point shooters and that is low effeciency from positions that need to be able to shoot it. You would literally have to have your forwards being lights out shooters.

Thats not saying Lamelo isn't talented. And I know we aren't in a position to look at "fit" at the moment. Which is why if we are in the top 3 and he's there I probably take him.

I just refuse to trade up in this draft with lack of tier 1 talent.

My plan would be to move RJ to SF and bring in some shooter free agents at the 2 and stretch 4. Or if we must keep RJ at the 2, shooters at the 3 and 4. Lamelo doesn’t have to shoot 35% to be effective. Luka shot 31.8%. Do I think LaMelo could at least shoot that? Yes. He will make more than enough to keep a defense honest. His shot will be better than people think. It’s actually shot selection that’s the biggest culprit imo and that’s coachable.

I also think RJ puts in the work to improve his percentages although he will never be a great shooter. But his 32% isn’t as horrendous as I feared from him. I hope he could just maintain that. But we still need to bring in some elite shooting talent to fill the gaps. Especially at the stretch 4 if we want Mitch to play.

[HarthorneWingo]

We need a PG and we need a PG now. We’ve needed one for decades. If we can get what I believe will be a franchise PG now, I would try to make that happen. We can’t just waste yet another year of every player’s development because we have no real floor general or playmaker and hold out on 14% chance of Cade with no real fallback options. If he’s a lot better, which I’m skeptical of, it just means it would be much harder to actually trade for him if you don’t hit the 14%. It would be like putting all our eggs in the Zion basket and then missing again. Nobody was trading that pick. We would just end up picking 8-10 next year, 86% chance of no Cade and still not have a PG. actually it would probably be like 94% from 8th

You want a PG, draft Tyrese Haliburton at 6-7.

Watch how he passes the ball. He has a skill for feeding his teammates. Everybody eats when you play with Tyrese!

He probably pairs the best with RJ in terms of him being a knock down shooter and playing both on and off the ball.

My concern with him is can he be the #1 playmaker on the team? Probably not. So you would have basically two #2 guys in Haliburton and RJ...but no #1 guy.

Hayes has his flaws but I see the most upside because at his best he can be the #1 playmaker. But he probably has a lower floor than Haliburton. But like Sham says...we just gotta keep shootin our shot and hope something sticks, right? No point in going safe with draft picks just go big and if you fail you fail.

Haliburton has defense and 3 point shooting over both Lamelo and Hayes (which is something this team needs from the guard position).

But he doesn't have nearly there playmaking abilities by consistently getting into the paint and being a main ball handler.

Hayes looks slow-footed to me. Also, he looks like a ball dominant PG whereas I see more ball movement with Haliburton.

I think RJ moves to the 3 spot next season. But I’d throw him in a trade for Ingram in a NY second.

My dream offseason includes:

Ingram
Wood
Haliburton
Patrick Williams (my new favorite second first round pick)

[WargamesX]

I got a chance to do more research on Hayes and Haliburton. Yeah the knicks need to come away with either one. Both of them could be it. Hayes is a bigger PG, and ball dominant but his shot could be great, he can grow with the team. Haliburton is a smart as hell at PG, a legit floor general and elite team defender. He just needs to get his funky shot fixed, same as Ball.

Hayes to me looks like he can be a bigger Kyle Lowry. A wrecking ball PG with a reliable outside shot (if it becomes reliable). He’s going to have to get stronger if anything and seek contact. His frame makes me think he can add that muscle.

Haliburton reminds me of 2011 Jason Kidd, but physically being capable of leading/scoring in transition. So he’ll bring craftiness, good defender, always making the right play (aka hockey assists), and can shoot the 3 from catch and shoots (if he fixes his form). His height will allow him to drive into the paint and kicking out to teammates or shoot a two.

Both of those comparisons are championship quality PGs. They both might be as good if not better options than Ball down the road depending on how we want to build the team.

Any of those three PG’s and we’re good, they all just need development, none of them are broken. Looking at those two I don’t think we need to move up as long as we are in range for one of them.

[thebuzzardman]

my major concern is what starting backcourt in the NBA is dominant with both guys being unable to shoot? I don't see Lamelo or RJ being +35% 3 point shooters and that is low effeciency from positions that need to be able to shoot it. You would literally have to have your forwards being lights out shooters.

Thats not saying Lamelo isn't talented. And I know we aren't in a position to look at "fit" at the moment. Which is why if we are in the top 3 and he's there I probably take him.

I just refuse to trade up in this draft with lack of tier 1 talent.

It's a concern, but I think RJ will become a better, more consistent outside shooter.

Plus, RJ will be playing the 3, but your point still stands.

When Rose helps the Knicks land Booker, that'll improve the team's spacing!

[TheGreenArrow]

If we were to take wiseman we could then trade Mitch and other pieces for another top 10 pick.

Cole,Rj and wiseman would be a very intriguing core.

So you want to dump Mitch so we could pick Cole....?

We’d probably get other assets also like future 1sts.

[thebuzzardman]

It feels fairly obvious the Knicks greatest need is a player who can break down the defense and get into the paint and score there with some regularity, which will cause the defense to move. And then facilitate off that.

IF it were that kind of draft, where players like that existed at SF or SG and were very talented, theoretically the Knicks could NOT draft a PG and add that player. Then they could get by for a year with some combination of Frank/DSjr/Payton (yeesh) and try again.

Since that player doesn't exist in this draft - Edwards doesn't strike me as Dwyane Wade - then drafting a PG is the way to go.

LaMelo seems to be the player that most brings that, in an obvious way. Is his outside shooting suspect? Yes. So was Jason Kidd's his first few years and it did.not.matter.

That makes LaMelo the obvious #1 choice of the Knicks. If he's available.

After that, Halliburton and Hayes seem to have their pros and cons. Halliburton, if you will, seems like up-model Frank. More floor general, facilitator, but, crucially, with a more developed driving game - and more confident in it, plus, an unusual, but decent % shot. He might not be a massive upgrade INITIALLY, over Frank, but an upgrade nonetheless with potential to develop into a significant upgrade.

Hayes might be more that upgrade over DSJr, even though their games are nothing alike. In that he's a bit more score first. I get concerns around his speed etc, but a PG who brought some of a DSJr scoring type mentality but with better decision making in the half court is also an upgrade.

Anyway, Frank and DSJr plusses and minuses have been cover ad nauseum in here. Both are decent. Both are missing a little something that makes them starting PG's, if not good starting ones. Both are still really young, but are also going on their 4th year. DSJr had a lot of personal challenges as well this past year. There's an argument for keeping either of them, even if a PG is drafted. I'm not sure I see any argument for keeping Payton, though I get how he's the has the most reliable, mature PG game of all 3. To me, that's good, but he's just not good enough at it where I'd bring him back - no knock, but why?

So, Knicks draft LaMelo or Halliburton or Hayes, bring back one out of two of Frank/DSJr and drop Payton.
And I tend to favor Frank over DSJr, but I actually like both and see the argument for keeping one over the other. Hopefully the FO picks the right one. I guess I'd lean Frank as I think he'd accept a 20-25 mpg role off the bench backing up 1-3, while DSJr is really just a scoring PG, but the team might value that off the bench and there is nothing wrong with that thinking either.

(I get they'll bring back both of Frank and DSJr and have, just I figure one gets packaged out in deal at some point, hopefully sooner than later)

[robillionaire]

It feels fairly obvious the Knicks greatest need is a player who can break down the defense and get into the paint and score there with some regularity, which will cause the defense to move. And then facilitate off that.

IF it were that kind of draft, where players like that existed at SF or SG and were very talented, theoretically the Knicks could NOT draft a PG and add that player. Then they could get by for a year with some combination of Frank/DSjr/Payton (yeesh) and try again.

Since that player doesn't exist in this draft - Edwards doesn't strike me as Dwyane Wade - then drafting a PG is the way to go.

LaMelo seems to be the player that most brings that, in an obvious way. Is his outside shooting suspect? Yes. So was Jason Kidd's his first few years and it did.not.matter.

That makes LaMelo the obvious #1 choice of the Knicks. If he's available.

After that, Halliburton and Hayes seem to have their pros and cons. Halliburton, if you will, seems like up-model Frank. More floor general, facilitator, but, crucially, with a more developed driving game - and more confident in it, plus, an unusual, but decent % shot. He might not be a massive upgrade INITIALLY, over Frank, but an upgrade nonetheless with potential to develop into a significant upgrade.

Hayes might be more that upgrade over DSJr, even though their games are nothing alike. In that he's a bit more score first. I get concerns around his speed etc, but a PG who brought some of a DSJr scoring type mentality but with better decision making in the half court is also an upgrade.

Anyway, Frank and DSJr plusses and minuses have been cover ad nauseum in here. Both are decent. Both are missing a little something that makes them starting PG's, if not good starting ones. Both are still really young, but are also going on their 4th year. DSJr had a lot of personal challenges as well this past year. There's an argument for keeping either of them, even if a PG is drafted. I'm not sure I see any argument for keeping Payton, though I get how he's the has the most reliable, mature PG game of all 3. To me, that's good, but he's just not good enough at it where I'd bring him back - no knock, but why?

So, Knicks draft LaMelo or Halliburton or Hayes, bring back one out of two of Frank/DSJr and drop Payton.
And I tend to favor Frank over DSJr, but I actually like both and see the argument for keeping one over the other. Hopefully the FO picks the right one. I guess I'd lean Frank as I think he'd accept a 20-25 mpg role off the bench backing up 1-3, while DSJr is really just a scoring PG, but the team might value that off the bench and there is nothing wrong with that thinking either.

(I get they'll bring back both of Frank and DSJr and have, just I figure one gets packaged out in deal at some point, hopefully sooner than later)

I think they’ll bring back Payton (assuming they don’t trade for cp3) Frank and DSJ haven’t exactly been consistent or even reliable health wise. Plus Payton is Scott Perry’s love child. I would go with our rookie PG and roll the dice on DSJ and Frank with a g-league backup to fill in if they go down, but I don’t think they’ll let that happen. There will always be some vet to take their minutes. On the DSJ and frank question, I would definitely keep frank if I could only keep one, unless DSJ makes some miraculous transformation this summer. But at the end of the season I think they’ll only end up bringing one of them back for another contract. If they bring back either of them at all.

Can’t help but notice Cole wasn’t a consideration yet he seems like he fit the description of being able to attack and get into the paint

Nice work worth the Haliburton frank comp. Bang on comparison 10/10.

[robillionaire]

Change of plans, we have our PG now. Maybe draft wiseman to shore up the middle

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[Deeeez Knicks]

my major concern is what starting backcourt in the NBA is dominant with both guys being unable to shoot? I don't see Lamelo or RJ being +35% 3 point shooters and that is low effeciency from positions that need to be able to shoot it. You would literally have to have your forwards being lights out shooters.

Thats not saying Lamelo isn't talented. And I know we aren't in a position to look at "fit" at the moment. Which is why if we are in the top 3 and he's there I probably take him.

I just refuse to trade up in this draft with lack of tier 1 talent.

My plan would be to move RJ to SF and bring in some shooter free agents at the 2 and stretch 4. Or if we must keep RJ at the 2, shooters at the 3 and 4. Lamelo doesn’t have to shoot 35% to be effective. Luka shot 31.8%. Do I think LaMelo could at least shoot that? Yes. He will make more than enough to keep a defense honest. His shot will be better than people think. It’s actually shot selection that’s the biggest culprit imo and that’s coachable.

I also think RJ puts in the work to improve his percentages although he will never be a great shooter. But his 32% isn’t as horrendous as I feared from him. I hope he could just maintain that. But we still need to bring in some elite shooting talent to fill the gaps. Especially at the stretch 4 if we want Mitch to play.

Yea, I think LaMelo's jumper will eventually be ok enough to at least keep defenses honest. Find good shooters next to them and we can be ok for now. His passing/vision will help guys get better looks and make everyone better. Those type of players are just much harder to find then shooters. If we have the chance, we have to take him.

A lot of top prospects don't come in the league as great shooters. It is one of those things that can be improved...I kinda have faith RJ will get better too. He has shown some improvement, and seems like a hard worker that he can figure it out. LaMelo/RJ/Mitch...would just love to have that core next season.

If the shooting never comes around, can worry about that later.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Change of plans, we have our PG now. Maybe draft wiseman to shore up the middle

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[god shammgod]

mitch been working. he broke quarantine on day 1. wiseman somewhere eating flaming hot cheetos probably.

[WargamesX]

I know they are all NBA players but I just get the feel that the youth are gym rats among gym rats. I wonder is that part of the draft profile they look for.