Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

[buckboy]

I'm not a regular Simmons listener these days, but I tuned in to the conversation on the Bucks, and almost turned the pod off because I was again reminded of how obnoxious I find Russillo. Simmons at least has the good sense to suggest he's self-aware of his shoot from the hips takes, but Russillo just subs in aggressive and confident declarations equal in proportion to his lack of actual knowledge on a subject.

Yeah, Russillo is a complete turd.

[BucksFanSD]

The trade is all about needing better play in the playoffs and better offense in the half court.


We might lose a few extra regular season games with a light bench, but you guys can't forget how painful this offense was to watch in the playoffs right?

Concur, these trades were all about improving playoff performance, even if our regular season outcome drops some. That was the right logic by Horst.

[Frank Nova]

And they were clear that the level of player you got in return is a key factor in the analysis. i.e. Yes, you'd pour those assets out for AD, but is Jrue a top 15 player? Top 25?

Variable I'm looking out for is how Holiday responds to playing alongside Giannis + Middleton in Bud's system.

He played with AD but this team has a different tier of talent and drive to win. The Bucks badly need a steady floor general, and Holiday should see more wide open shots than he ever has before as well.

Jrue has an opportunity to take his game up a notch and build a legacy.

The fact that Giannis Khris and Jrue were all top 10 in real plus/minus last year should lead anyone to believe that the 3 of them are likely to dominate the majority of the time they share the court. I’ve already said I feel like the term “star guard” has been thrown around a little loosely in the media in regards to Holiday, but having said that, you’re absolutely correct that Holiday will have every opportunity and more to look like a star guard in Milwaukee now. It’s not out of the realm of possibility for Jrue to be the best PG in the East next season. With Curry and Lillard still out west, Holiday may not be the polarizing player that Kyrie is but you could make a case that he’s easily the better 2 way player and the gap between Jrue and Kyries defense is much wider than the gap on offense.

I get that Jrue isn’t 25yrs old and the untapped potential is gone from a prospect perspective but this is real opportunity for Holiday to shine and elevate his game and legacy, like you said, so if he seizes it, he will end up being atleast the top 25 player you would have little to no problem with emptying your asset cupboard for.

None the less, the starting 5 as is right now should widely be considered the best in the league. We’re talking an average of about 100pts per night between them, that’s insane. Add in a Dj Augustine or Jerami Grant and points in the playoffs shouldn’t be nearly as hard to come by as they have in the last 2 seasons when the competition stiffens.

One last thing, **** Simmons and Russilo, they’re both bozos. If Boston traded Hayward Smart and 3 FRPs for Holiday or some type of move like that, the whole podcast would’ve been about how Holiday Tatum and Brown is the best big 3 in the league. You can’t take them dudes seriously.

[coolhandluke121]

What would you have done then? I'm not being flippant either, as you usually have a plan.

The way I see it, either this deal goes through or Giannis walks.

We don't know if Giannis walks and we don't know what else was out there, so it's hard to say what the plan could be. I definitely would have overpaid to a point for Jrue because of the premium value on contending now. However, it is very rare that a better deal than this is not available eventually if you're patient and you're determined to give up that much. They have until the trade deadline to make something happen. Bledsoe and Hill can easily help them to a great record in the regular season again. In fact, I would argue that having Bledsoe and Hill projects to a better regular season record than Jrue + a minimum contract guy. Bogdan is probably a great complement to Bledsoe in the backcourt, and there's no harm in letting it play out until the trade deadline. Then if you're really dead-set on giving up so much, you can usually make a trade like this at some point. But like I said, I don't know who will be available during the season. There's usually one or two reset teams with a guy like Beal, Booker, or Conley available.

I'm not even against trading the picks, but it's foolish to not wait for a better deal to come along, because it should not be this hard to acquire a top 30-ish player who is probably at the end of his prime for the incredible package the Bucks offered.

If Giannis insists on trades like this and can't understand why you have to get good value when making trades like this in order to have sustained success, then the fact is he's just going to end up bankrupting the future for short-term success and leave a mess behind like Lebron always does to his teams anyway. The Cavs did get a title out of it, but Giannis is no prime Lebron. Also, you have to wonder how many titles the Cavs might have won if they could have waited for someone a little better than Love to be available. And the Bucks trade is even worse because they traded players who were a big part of having the best record in the NBA two years in a row for Jrue, so it's not like they didn't already have help.

The Sixers, Celtics, and Pelicans absolutely played the Bucks on this. Giannis better re-sign this summer. That's all I can say about it. I'm not even convinced this team is any better than the last two years.

[German Athens]

I really don’t see this being as bad as the nets trade, but time could certainly prove me wrong. A couple things were baffling with the nets trade in that

1. They weren’t contenders after they made the trade, so what exactly was the point of that one. We are, even if we were before - getting marginally better is a big step forward when you’re towards the top.

2. They traded for formerly great players in 36 year old Paul pierce, 36 year old Jason terry, and 37 year old Kevin Garnett. We are trading for a player who will turn 31 in June. That 5 year gap is big.

The 2027 pick is very dangerous, but if we keep Giannis through his deal, assuming it’s the 5 year max, his last season would be in 2026. I’d think we would be at least a good team for that entire time, but who knows.

Lastly, if it came down to it, I’d gladly set us back a future decade to win a title now. I think a lot of you would say the same, and it’s fair to question if jrue was the piece to go all-in on. Fingers crossed it works out for us.

[JimmyTheKid]

What would you have done then? I'm not being flippant either, as you usually have a plan.

The way I see it, either this deal goes through or Giannis walks.

We don't know if Giannis walks and we don't know what else was out there, so it's hard to say what the plan could be. I definitely would have overpaid to a point for Jrue because of the premium value on contending now. However, it is very rare that a better deal than this is not available eventually if you're patient and you're determined to give up that much. They have until the trade deadline to make something happen. Bledsoe and Hill can easily help them to a great record in the regular season again. In fact, I would argue that having Bledsoe and Hill projects to a better regular season record than Jrue + a minimum contract guy. Bogdan is probably a great complement to Bledsoe in the backcourt, and there's no harm in letting it play out until the trade deadline. Then if you're really dead-set on giving up so much, you can usually make a trade like this at some point. But like I said, I don't know who will be available during the season. There's usually one or two reset teams with a guy like Beal, Booker, or Conley available.

I'm not even against trading the picks, but it's foolish to not wait for a better deal to come along, because it should not be this hard to acquire a top 30-ish player who is probably at the end of his prime for the incredible package the Bucks offered.

If Giannis insists on trades like this and can't understand why you have to get good value when making trades like this in order to have sustained success, then the fact is he's just going to end up bankrupting the future for short-term success and leave a mess behind like Lebron always does to his teams anyway. The Cavs did get a title out of it, but Giannis is no prime Lebron. Also, you have to wonder how many titles the Cavs might have won if they could have waited for someone a little better than Love to be available. And the Bucks trade is even worse because they traded players who were a big part of having the best record in the NBA two years in a row for Jrue, so it's not like they didn't already have help.

The Sixers, Celtics, and Pelicans absolutely played the Bucks on this. Giannis better re-sign this summer. That's all I can say about it. I'm not even convinced this team is any better than the last two years.

Do you truly believe that a deadline deal in that situation is a legitimate option? Have a great first half like the previous two seasons and then BAM!, blow it all up at the deadline?

And the Celtics and Sixers didn't "play the Bucks," they badly wanted Jrue Holiday for their own teams and were outbid. This isn't some conspiracy to "drive up the price" for Milwaukee.

[buckboy]

The Nets trade comparison is ridiculous. Did the Nets have the best player in the league when they made that deal? Garnett and Pierce were like 37 & 35. You could see trouble a mile away on that deal.

Edit: I see this was already covered.

[raferfenix]

Holiday makes that much more sense for the Bucks if we fear that Harden is coming out East.

Philly would be particularly formidable with him in tow.

I'm way less afraid of NJ since Kryie is such trash.

But they have D'antoni (and Nash) now, and of course could just deal Irving to some other hapless franchise.

[coolhandluke121]

The Nets trade comparison is ridiculous. Did the Nets have the best player in the league when they made that deal? Garnett and Pierce were like 37 & 35. You could see trouble a mile away on that deal.

Edit: I see this was already covered.

They also had Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Brook Lopez in their primes and were a good team without KG and Pierce. Most people thought they would be good for a while and the picks wouldn't be that great. That's where the comparison comes in, the short-sightedness of that sort of rationalization. The Bucks should have a longer window than those Nets did, but the picks are even further out. The trade that was justified to help keep Giannis only make it more likely that he forces his way out eventually when the supporting cast ages and they have no means of rebuilding. Preventing the normal contend-rebuild cycle is hard enough even when you don't trade picks like this, let alone when you do. The Spurs never had to do crap like this to stay great for so long. Resisting the urge to make terrible deals is precisely what kept them on top.

[M-C-G]

Giannis hits a wall and cant do anything. Bledsoe becomes so painfully bad you wonder if he's had some freaky Friday incident with a fan, midds gets streaky, Lopez, DDV, patty c, etc. all clank, clank, clank. Bricks all day. No movement, no offense, no creativity. Just Giannis hits a wall and someone shoots a brick.

Now we have TWO guys that have history of upping their game in big moments, can create, can dish, and can catch and shoot.

This appears to be a fantastic solution for a problem we have painfully watched these past 2 post seasons.

Ding Ding DING.

Our Coach and GM realized we have a major deficiency on our team that most notably presents itself in the playoffs and they went all in to address it. So far, we have lost draft picks and a fan favorite but make no mistake this is a better team right now, especially come playoff time if healthy.

[LUKE23]

There is literally no argument to be made that this team isn’t far better suited for the playoffs, especially in terms of being tougher to guard on offense. JRue is 10% better on catch and shoot 3s and 15% better on corner 3s than Bled, and Bogdan is a near Middleton level shooter who also can maneuver to get shots off the bounce, which Wes was incapable of. The upgrade offensively from Bled/Wes to Jrue/Bogdan cannot be overstated.

Oh, and we still have two top 5 defenders in the entire league and another who is probably top 10. This starting five is nasty.

[LedZepp007]

There is literally no argument to be made that this team isn’t far better suited for the playoffs, especially in terms of being tougher to guard on offense. JRue is 10% better on catch and shoot 3s and 15% better on corner 3s than Bled, and Bogdan is a near Middleton level shooter who also can maneuver to get shots off the bounce, which Wes was incapable of. The upgrade offensively from Bled/Wes to Jrue/Bogdan cannot be overstated.

Oh, and we still have two top 5 defenders in the entire league and another who is probably top 10. This starting five is nasty.

This


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[LUKE23]

Also, I see no reality where the Bucks make these moves while also not knowing that Giannis signs the supermax if they do make the moves. If that ends up being the case, the entire fanbase will lamblast them for all eternity. I would just be absolutely shocked if that's even a possibility at this point.

[worthlessBucks]

Listened to SImmons pod. There are a lot of topics to unpack from it. Will save some for later. Here were my two big takeaways.

They both like the Bogdan trade. Feel that he's a guy that is able to get some shots off when defenses clamp down in the playoffs. Much more so than the other guys the Bucks ran out there with Giannis in the past.

On Jrue, will try to cobble together what I think was a main theme. Shouldn't the superstar that wants help, be more cognizant that overpaying for help might be crazy damaging to the franchise, and prevent said superstar from getting help down the road. The question was posed: Wouldn't it be more important for the Bucks/Giannis success to have some of those assets to use in the next couple years, versus dumping everything on the table for Jrue Holiday.

And they were clear that the level of player you got in return is a key factor in the analysis. i.e. Yes, you'd pour those assets out for AD, but is Jrue a top 15 player? Top 25? Would David Griffin have really hung up the phone if Horst said "I'm only doing one pick swap instead of two".

Those were fair observations we'll all struggle with in the years ahead.

Many head nods.

[SupremeHustle]

We don't know yet if this is the best team Giannis has had in MKE, but we know coming into it that it's the most talented team.

We're going to learn a lot about Giannis' BBIQ this season, specifically when it comes to making reads and knowing when to delegate. I know there are a couple of posters who are skeptical on that front.

[Finn]

I liked this quote from The Ringer article:

"If that rationale is based in fact (and a number of plugged-in insiders seem to think that it is) and if Holiday’s arrival is followed in a few months by a multiyear extension, then the calculus shifts, taking on a shape similar to the Clippers’ megadeal with the Thunder last offseason. Milwaukee’s not trading three good players, five picks, and about $11.5 million in expiring contracts for Holiday and Bogdanovic; it’s trading that package for Holiday, Bogdanovic, and Giannis. And if that’s what it is, then you do it 100 times out of 100."

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Anyone who is worried about a few years of no first rounder (yes even potentially a high lottery pick) needs to look back at 30 years of 8th seed or bust.

Exactly. The Bucks screwed up so many first round picks anyway. Yes, it's an overpay. No, I don't want to read you crying about it for 20 pages right now.

Ridiculous false dilemma. This is not an 8th seed or bust team anyway. This is not justification for getting completely raped in a trade for a 30-year-old one-time all-star who made the ASG playing in of the East's worst years for talent. Mortgaging the future is exactly what makes you a perpetual 8th-seed or bust team in the first place. This is a desperate move.

If you don't want to read 20 pages of it, then don't. I don't particularly want to read 20 pages of short-sighted justifications for such a mind-boggling bad value trade either. This is worse than the Nets trading for KG and Pierce. It's an unconscionably high price.

Splicing words, but i don't think it is necessary high but extremely risky. Chances that any of those picks gets you a starting caliber player is pretty small. But the risk exposure is pretty high.

Honestly, I would feel a lot better if we just made the Boggie trade. Kept bledsoe and Hill and made a trade at the deadline. Jrue contract situation is pretty scary where you have to pay a 30+ year old guard max money in 7 months. I think we are better next year and ok with the trade, but value wise we did pretty poor. We will be paying 34 year olds Midds and Holiday 75m combined at the end of Giannis's peak. That is scary.

[Licensed to Il]

Bucks Real Gm: using group think to rationalize terrible organizational moves for almost 20 years!

I kid, I kid. I share the consensus that if these moves get Giannis to resign they are worth it. I also shudder at the realization that probably >85% of the trades, draft picks, hirings, and signings the prior and current ownership have signed off on have been quite poor. History is not on our side. So I get why the media mostly craps on us.

[LUKE23]

Random fun fact: Bucks starting five averaged 114.8 points per 36 last year.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Exactly. The Bucks screwed up so many first round picks anyway. Yes, it's an overpay. No, I don't want to read you crying about it for 20 pages right now.

Ridiculous false dilemma. This is not an 8th seed or bust team anyway. This is not justification for getting completely raped in a trade for a 30-year-old one-time all-star who made the ASG playing in of the East's worst years for talent. Mortgaging the future is exactly what makes you a perpetual 8th-seed or bust team in the first place. This is a desperate move.

If you don't want to read 20 pages of it, then don't. I don't particularly want to read 20 pages of short-sighted justifications for such a mind-boggling bad value trade either. This is worse than the Nets trading for KG and Pierce. It's an unconscionably high price.

What would you have done then? I'm not being flippant either, as you usually have a plan.

The way I see it, either this deal goes through or Giannis walks.

If that is true, sure. But no one knows how attached he is to Holiday. You do the Bogdan trade - i don't think anyone disagrees. Then you pass on Holiday. You have Bledsoe, Hill, and 3 draft picks to work with. I think we could've done better than Holiday (at least long-term)

XXX/
Bogdan/
Midds/
Giannis/
Brook/