ImageImageImageImageImage

Political Roundtable Part XI

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#721 » by Induveca » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:14 pm

DCZards wrote:
TGW wrote:I thought what the Hamilton cast did was unprofessional and un-american. Pence wasn't at the show as a politician, he was there as a paying customer. I'm sure liberals would have been pissed if Obama attended a Dallas Mavericks game, and over the intercom at halftime, the announcer started to lecture Obama on how much Texans hate Obamacare. It was petty, stupid, and not the right time or place to vent or rant on politics.

With that being said, Trump is a big baby. Playtime is over. We have more important things to deal with...stop wasting time on social media and worry about your terrible cabinet choices.


A group of people deciding to use their unique platform to collectively speak up for those who don't have that platform...I love it! And I particularly like it because it came from artists, who have often been the conscience of this country.

Un-American? No, it's called free speech. If people want to complain about what the Hamilton cast did (or the Mavs making an announcement about Obamacare over the intercom) let them use that same First Amendment right to do just that.


Considering Manuel-Miranda/Hamilton directly raised an estimated $6.4 million (some seats sold as high as 100k) for the Clinton campaign, and did another fundraiser in mid October for her not a huge surprise.

http://variety.com/2016/legit/news/hamilton-fundraiser-hillary-clinton-1201803679/

The Clinton campaign even communicated directly with Hamilton producers (even insulted them) via leaked Wikileaks communications. That level of corroboration? That's not free speech, that's a political hit by the DNC.

It's pointless though, I took my better half to see it and she loved it many months ago. But let's not act as if this was a spontaneous uprising. They obviously spoke with the DNC when it was apparent Pence would be attending.
User avatar
TGW
RealGM
Posts: 13,498
And1: 6,912
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#722 » by TGW » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:17 pm

DCZards wrote:
TGW wrote:I thought what the Hamilton cast did was unprofessional and un-american. Pence wasn't at the show as a politician, he was there as a paying customer. I'm sure liberals would have been pissed if Obama attended a Dallas Mavericks game, and over the intercom at halftime, the announcer started to lecture Obama on how much Texans hate Obamacare. It was petty, stupid, and not the right time or place to vent or rant on politics.

With that being said, Trump is a big baby. Playtime is over. We have more important things to deal with...stop wasting time on social media and worry about your terrible cabinet choices.


A group of people deciding to use their unique platform to collectively speak up for those who don't have that platform...I love it! And I particularly like it because it came from artists, who have often been the conscience of this country.

Un-American? No, it's called free speech. If people want to complain about what the Hamilton cast did (or the Mavs making an announcement about Obamacare over the intercom) let them use that same First Amendment right to do just that.


No one is talking about free speech. We're talking about the separation of politics from daily life. It opens up a can of worms that I particularly don't like. I don't want to go to a movie, play, sporting event, or anything of that nature, and have to hear some political rant, whether I disagree with it or not. What's next...me having to hear the foot locker employee rant about not buying Nike because they're made in China? Or how about the Safeway clerk lecturing me because I bought some Mexican beans? It's along the same line, and personally I don't want that being normalized in America.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 71,443
And1: 24,114
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#723 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:44 pm

DCZards wrote:A group of people deciding to use their unique platform to collectively speak up for those who don't have that platform...I love it! And I particularly like it because it came from artists, who have often been the conscience of this country.

Un-American? No, it's called free speech. If people want to complain about what the Hamilton cast did (or the Mavs making an announcement about Obamacare over the intercom) let them use that same First Amendment right to do just that.

If a group of hockey fans booed Obama when he walked in to attend a game, you would lose your freakin' mind.
DCZards
RealGM
Posts: 11,236
And1: 5,107
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Location: The Streets of DC
     

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#724 » by DCZards » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:40 pm

nate33 wrote:
DCZards wrote:A group of people deciding to use their unique platform to collectively speak up for those who don't have that platform...I love it! And I particularly like it because it came from artists, who have often been the conscience of this country.

Un-American? No, it's called free speech. If people want to complain about what the Hamilton cast did (or the Mavs making an announcement about Obamacare over the intercom) let them use that same First Amendment right to do just that.

If a group of hockey fans booed Obama when he walked in to attend a game, you would lose your freakin' mind.


Like I care what freakin' hockey fans do.
DCZards
RealGM
Posts: 11,236
And1: 5,107
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Location: The Streets of DC
     

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#725 » by DCZards » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:43 pm

TGW wrote:
No one is talking about free speech. We're talking about the separation of politics from daily life. It opens up a can of worms that I particularly don't like. I don't want to go to a movie, play, sporting event, or anything of that nature, and have to hear some political rant, whether I disagree with it or not. What's next...me having to hear the foot locker employee rant about not buying Nike because they're made in China? Or how about the Safeway clerk lecturing me because I bought some Mexican beans? It's along the same line, and personally I don't want that being normalized in America.


What I don't want to see "normalized" is the bigotry and bullying that Trump and his campaign exemplify, imo. And that was the essence of the message from the Hamilton cast.
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#726 » by Induveca » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:13 pm

DCZards wrote:
TGW wrote:
No one is talking about free speech. We're talking about the separation of politics from daily life. It opens up a can of worms that I particularly don't like. I don't want to go to a movie, play, sporting event, or anything of that nature, and have to hear some political rant, whether I disagree with it or not. What's next...me having to hear the foot locker employee rant about not buying Nike because they're made in China? Or how about the Safeway clerk lecturing me because I bought some Mexican beans? It's along the same line, and personally I don't want that being normalized in America.


What I don't want to see "normalized" is the bigotry and bullying that Trump and his campaign exemplify, imo. And that was the essence of the message from the Hamilton cast.


Again, who raised over 6 million dollars for the DNC in two separate events and communicated with them directly via Wikileaks. Manuel-Miranda laughed at the possibility of a Trump presidency on SNL, while getting his message approved by the DNC.

If you don't think they scripted that for Pence being in the audience, you're delusional or completely dishonest.

If anyone is pulling apart America, it's the continued efforts by far left liberals who refuse to give Trump a chance. I'm all for the protests, it's a fundamental right. But have a realistic goal, at least a message beyond "we hate you, we want our candidate". That's not how democracy works.
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 21,497
And1: 5,684
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#727 » by tontoz » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:19 pm

NANANANNANANANANA....I CAN'T HEAR YOU.....NANANNANANANANANANNAANANNANNANANANANANA
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD
DCZards
RealGM
Posts: 11,236
And1: 5,107
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Location: The Streets of DC
     

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#728 » by DCZards » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:21 pm

Induveca wrote:
If you don't think they scripted that for Pence being in the audience, you're delusional or completely dishonest.

If anyone is pulling apart America, it's the continued efforts by far left liberals who refuse to give Trump a chance.


I'm guessing that far left liberals will give Trump more of a chance to move the country forward than the far right gave Obama.

And you really don't know whether or not the statement from the cast was "scripted" by the DNC. Maybe you should give these actors a little credit for having their own views on the issue.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 71,443
And1: 24,114
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#729 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:22 pm

Induveca wrote:If anyone is pulling apart America, it's the continued efforts by far left liberals who refuse to give Trump a chance. I'm all for the protests, it's a fundamental right. But have a realistic goal, at least a message beyond "we hate you, we want our candidate". That's not how democracy works.

It doesn't bother me at all. The longer the left thinks that insulting Trump voters is an effective strategy, the greater the likelihood that Republicans blow them out in the 2018 midterms and consolidate power even more.
AFM
RealGM
Posts: 12,888
And1: 9,174
Joined: May 25, 2012
   

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#730 » by AFM » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:17 pm

Donald "Literally Hitler" Trump
Image

Dude's a fascist
verbal8
General Manager
Posts: 8,359
And1: 1,381
Joined: Jul 20, 2006
Location: Herndon, VA
     

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#731 » by verbal8 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:15 am

DCZards wrote:
TGW wrote:I thought what the Hamilton cast did was unprofessional and un-american. Pence wasn't at the show as a politician, he was there as a paying customer. I'm sure liberals would have been pissed if Obama attended a Dallas Mavericks game, and over the intercom at halftime, the announcer started to lecture Obama on how much Texans hate Obamacare. It was petty, stupid, and not the right time or place to vent or rant on politics.

With that being said, Trump is a big baby. Playtime is over. We have more important things to deal with...stop wasting time on social media and worry about your terrible cabinet choices.


A group of people deciding to use their unique platform to collectively speak up for those who don't have that platform...I love it! And I particularly like it because it came from artists, who have often been the conscience of this country.

Un-American? No, it's called free speech. If people want to complain about what the Hamilton cast did (or the Mavs making an announcement about Obamacare over the intercom) let them use that same First Amendment right to do just that.


I think the statement by the cast to Pence was pretty respectful consider how strongly they disagreed with his policies. I think they were able to bring to attention the serious concerns many opponents of the next administration have. In a couple minutes they accomplished what thousands of protesters really haven't been able to accomplish.
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#732 » by Induveca » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:59 am

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/media/306857-the-media-needs-to-get-off-their-fake-news-false-narrative

The "Fake News" campaign is ridiculous. This reminds me of traditional newspapers desperately trying to kill off internet based news aggregators in the mid/late 90s.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,328
And1: 4,915
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#733 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:34 pm

Ok STOP TALKING about Hamilton. For Jeebum Crow's sake. NOBODY CARES.

Fascists are taking over our country. And we're talking about Hamilton.

"Tuesday, on Facebook, Yale historian and Holocaust expert Timothy Snyder wrote: "Americans are no wiser than the Europeans who saw democracy yield to fascism, Nazism, or communism. Our one advantage is that we might learn from their experience. Now is a good time to do so." Snyder's a member of the Council on Foreign Relations (which includes former Secretaries of State), and consults on political situations around the globe. He says, "Here are twenty lessons from the twentieth century, adapted to the circumstances of today.

1. Do not obey in advance. Much of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. In times like these, individuals think ahead about what a more repressive government will want, and then start to do it without being asked. You've already done this, haven't you? Stop. Anticipatory obedience teaches authorities what is possible and accelerates unfreedom.

2. Defend an institution. Follow the courts or the media, or a court or a newspaper. Do not speak of "our institutions" unless you are making them yours by acting on their behalf. Institutions don't protect themselves. They go down like dominoes unless each is defended from the beginning.

3. Recall professional ethics. When the leaders of state set a negative example, professional commitments to just practice become much more important. It is hard to break a rule-of-law state without lawyers, and it is hard to have show trials without judges.

4. When listening to politicians, distinguish certain words. Look out for the expansive use of "terrorism" and "extremism." Be alive to the fatal notions of "exception" and "emergency." Be angry about the treacherous use of patriotic vocabulary.

5. Be calm when the unthinkable arrives. When the terrorist attack comes, remember that all authoritarians at all times either await or plan such events in order to consolidate power. Think of the Reichstag fire. The sudden disaster that requires the end of the balance of power, the end of opposition parties, and so on, is the oldest trick in the Hitlerian book. Don't fall for it.

6. Be kind to our language. Avoid pronouncing the phrases everyone else does. Think up your own way of speaking, even if only to convey that thing you think everyone is saying. (Don't use the internet before bed. Charge your gadgets away from your bedroom, and read.) What to read? Perhaps "The Power of the Powerless" by Václav Havel, 1984 by George Orwell, The Captive Mind by Czesław Milosz, The Rebel by Albert Camus, The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt, or Nothing is True and Everything is Possible by Peter Pomerantsev.

7. Stand out. Someone has to. It is easy, in words and deeds, to follow along. It can feel strange to do or say something different. But without that unease, there is no freedom. And the moment you set an example, the spell of the status quo is broken, and others will follow.

8. Believe in truth. To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power, because there is no basis upon which to do so. If nothing is true, then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights.

9. Investigate. Figure things out for yourself. Spend more time with long articles. Subsidize investigative journalism by subscribing to print media. Realize that some of what is on your screen is there to harm you. Bookmark PropOrNot or other sites that investigate foreign propaganda pushes.

10. Practice corporeal politics. Power wants your body softening in your chair and your emotions dissipating on the screen. Get outside. Put your body in unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people. Make new friends and march with them.

11. Make eye contact and small talk. This is not just polite. It is a way to stay in touch with your surroundings, break down unnecessary social barriers, and come to understand whom you should and should not trust. If we enter a culture of denunciation, you will want to know the psychological landscape of your daily life.

12. Take responsibility for the face of the world. Notice the swastikas and the other signs of hate. Do not look away and do not get used to them. Remove them yourself and set an example for others to do so.

13. Hinder the one-party state. The parties that took over states were once something else. They exploited a historical moment to make political life impossible for their rivals. Vote in local and state elections while you can.

14. Give regularly to good causes, if you can. Pick a charity and set up autopay. Then you will know that you have made a free choice that is supporting civil society helping others doing something good.

15. Establish a private life. Nastier rulers will use what they know about you to push you around. Scrub your computer of malware. Remember that email is skywriting. Consider using alternative forms of the internet, or simply using it less. Have personal exchanges in person. For the same reason, resolve any legal trouble. Authoritarianism works as a blackmail state, looking for the hook on which to hang you. Try not to have too many hooks.

16. Learn from others in other countries. Keep up your friendships abroad, or make new friends abroad. The present difficulties here are an element of a general trend. And no country is going to find a solution by itself. Make sure you and your family have passports.

17. Watch out for the paramilitaries. When the men with guns who have always claimed to be against the system start wearing uniforms and marching around with torches and pictures of a Leader, the end is nigh. When the pro-Leader paramilitary and the official police and military intermingle, the game is over.

18. Be reflective if you must be armed. If you carry a weapon in public service, God bless you and keep you. But know that evils of the past involved policemen and soldiers finding themselves, one day, doing irregular things. Be ready to say no. (If you do not know what this means, contact the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and ask about training in professional ethics.)

19. Be as courageous as you can. If none of us is prepared to die for freedom, then all of us will die in unfreedom.

20. Be a patriot. The incoming president is not. Set a good example of what America means for the generations to come. They will need it.""
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
User avatar
Kanyewest
RealGM
Posts: 10,739
And1: 2,897
Joined: Jul 05, 2004

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#734 » by Kanyewest » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:26 pm

nate33 wrote:
Induveca wrote:If anyone is pulling apart America, it's the continued efforts by far left liberals who refuse to give Trump a chance. I'm all for the protests, it's a fundamental right. But have a realistic goal, at least a message beyond "we hate you, we want our candidate". That's not how democracy works.

It doesn't bother me at all. The longer the left things that insulting Trump voters is an effective strategy, the greater the likelihood that Republicans blow them out in the 2018 midterms and consolidate power even more.


I'm not sure what works and what doesn't work anymore. It's not like Trump rationalized away a lot of Hillary supporters; there was a lot of anger behind it that fired up the base. The same may be true for the Democrats in future elections but then again it may not matter if the Democrats fail to find a good nominee.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 71,443
And1: 24,114
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#735 » by nate33 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:37 pm

If either the modern left of the modern right can be characterized as "facists", it's surely the left. Which side has violent protests on a weekly or monthly basis? Which side pulls people out of cars and beats them up for voting for the other candidate? Which side will seek to get you fired and destroy your livelihood for saying the wrong type of speech? Which side is trying to seize guns from law abiding citizens? Which side features collusion between media and political operatives to rig debates and attack the opposition? Which side is seeking to censor and shut down media sites based on the premise of "fake news"?

The rise of Trump is not fascism. It is the response to liberal fascism.
AFM
RealGM
Posts: 12,888
And1: 9,174
Joined: May 25, 2012
   

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#736 » by AFM » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:26 pm

Image
DCZards
RealGM
Posts: 11,236
And1: 5,107
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Location: The Streets of DC
     

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#737 » by DCZards » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:35 pm

nate33 wrote:If either the modern left of the modern right can be characterized as "facists", it's surely the left. Which side has violent protests on a weekly or monthly basis? Which side pulls people out of cars and beats them up for voting for the other candidate? Which side will seek to get you fired and destroy your livelihood for saying the wrong type of speech? Which side is trying to seize guns from law abiding citizens? Which side features collusion between media and political operatives to rig debates and attack the opposition? Which side is seeking to censor and shut down media sites based on the premise of "fake news"?

The rise of Trump is not fascism. It is the response to liberal fascism.


Actually, it's Donald Trump who has openly talked about limiting the media's First Amendment rights.

BTW, did you see the video of the alt-right meeting at a DC restaurant last Saturday where participants did the "Heil Victory, Heil Trump" salute? Scary stuff.
User avatar
TGW
RealGM
Posts: 13,498
And1: 6,912
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#738 » by TGW » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:51 pm

DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:If either the modern left of the modern right can be characterized as "facists", it's surely the left. Which side has violent protests on a weekly or monthly basis? Which side pulls people out of cars and beats them up for voting for the other candidate? Which side will seek to get you fired and destroy your livelihood for saying the wrong type of speech? Which side is trying to seize guns from law abiding citizens? Which side features collusion between media and political operatives to rig debates and attack the opposition? Which side is seeking to censor and shut down media sites based on the premise of "fake news"?

The rise of Trump is not fascism. It is the response to liberal fascism.


Actually, it's Donald Trump who has openly talked about limiting the media's First Amendment rights.

BTW, did you see the video of the alt-right meeting at a DC restaurant last Saturday where participants did the "Heil Victory, Heil Trump" salute? Scary stuff.


Oh please! Those are just paid actors funded by the liberal media for a fake "story". Put down your liberal goggles and stop sipping the leftist kool-aid.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 71,443
And1: 24,114
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#739 » by nate33 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:15 pm

TGW wrote:
DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:If either the modern left of the modern right can be characterized as "facists", it's surely the left. Which side has violent protests on a weekly or monthly basis? Which side pulls people out of cars and beats them up for voting for the other candidate? Which side will seek to get you fired and destroy your livelihood for saying the wrong type of speech? Which side is trying to seize guns from law abiding citizens? Which side features collusion between media and political operatives to rig debates and attack the opposition? Which side is seeking to censor and shut down media sites based on the premise of "fake news"?

The rise of Trump is not fascism. It is the response to liberal fascism.


Actually, it's Donald Trump who has openly talked about limiting the media's First Amendment rights.

BTW, did you see the video of the alt-right meeting at a DC restaurant last Saturday where participants did the "Heil Victory, Heil Trump" salute? Scary stuff.


Oh please! Those are just paid actors funded by the liberal media for a fake "story". Put down your liberal goggles and stop sipping the leftist kool-aid.

No, it's a fringe group of white nationalists headed by attention whore Richard Spencer. The media flattered him by labeling him the "leader of the alt-right" and now Spencer thinks he is a significant figure when, in fact, all he is is a straw man whom the media set up so they can tear him down in an effort to impugn all Trump supporters. If Spencer really was a Trump supporter, he'd shut the hell up and stay in the shadows rather than try and hurt Trump politically with his odious presence.

There were what, 50 people there? And maybe a dozen saluted him? Nobody is saying that there aren't white nationalists out there. It's just that there's so few of them that they're not worth discussing. The only reason they're in the news is because it drives a media Narrative. The fact that Spencer is out there making an ass out of himself should give you relief. Clearly, the sinister White Nationalists have no sense of strategy.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,328
And1: 4,915
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#740 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:39 pm

"liberal fascism," snicker

Ok, first off, let's agree what fascism is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

"Robert Paxton says that fascism is "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

Ok, so on both sides you have "victimization," although on the white side it's pretty much imaginary, except for uneducated white people, and on the "liberal" side you have babies crying about being summarily executed in the streets by police, boo hoo.

On the left side you have a message of love and unity and how wonderful this country is. On the alt-right we have Bannon and a bunch of gun nuts wailing about how awful things are (despite the economy doing better than it has in decades), blaming Muslims and Mexicans for all their problems and loudly and consistently proposing policies to persecute them.

And we have Trump loudly and openly persecuting the press.

The only element of fascism that we don't have yet from the alt-right is scooping up Muslims into camps and sending them to the gas chambers. It hasn't happened yet because we are at the early stages of fascism where that behavior has not yet been normalized. We are getting closer and closer every day.

And if we don't call a spade a spade, and call out fascist behavior where we see it, and condemn it loudly, and march out in the streets yelling as loudly as we can that we won't tolerate it, it WILL happen. Because people are fundamentally tribal creatures. We've evolved to have absolutely no moral qualms with killing people who aren't members of our tribe. It's something we have to constantly battle with. We're losing that battle right now in the US.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.

Return to Washington Wizards