OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[Chi town]

Its estimated that at least 4 million people in India died of covid.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/20/1018438334/indias-pandemic-death-toll-estimated-at-about-4-million-10-times-the-official-co

I'm guessing that had the US not vaccinated, we would have seen a tremendous number of deaths and then the virus would be pretty much done. It was never going to go on forever.

To some degree, we were lied to. The vaccine was never going to eliminate covid and a lot of experts were aware of this. The real intent was to break the link between getting covid and having a funeral.

Yep. Herd immunity at 70% and vaccine would end COVID. Neither have. The vaccine is very effective at taking the edge off of Covid and keeping you from a hospital or death. I have plenty of friends that partied it up in crowds after the vaccine and got COVID. Pretty much everyone I’m talking to now has come to terms with getting COVID. No way around it unless you don’t leave your home. No way back to normal anytime soon without getting it. The vaccine lessens the symptoms.

[Almost Retired]

So we agree. The less it can sites the less likely it is to mutate.

You're right. There shouldn't be any discussion. Anyone wth real expertise points to the vaccine as the solution. But a few guys on the internet think they are smarter than them.

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A vaccine is the solution. This vaccine is not the solution.

Is that why for every 1 vaccinated person in the hospital with Covid there are 16 unvaccinated?

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I cover 3 of the largest hospitals in Austin. That's not what I've seen over the past 6 weeks. At least 30-40% of our Covid admits have been fully vaccinated. I will say that there have been more breakthrough infections in patients who received the J & J jab. The Moderna jab does seem to be less represented among the vaccinated breakthroughs. Early on a lot of patients were enticed to go with the J & J jab because it promised to be a one shot deal. Moderna and Pfizer required 2 jabs.

[TheStig]

So we agree. The less it can sites the less likely it is to mutate.

You're right. There shouldn't be any discussion. Anyone wth real expertise points to the vaccine as the solution. But a few guys on the internet think they are smarter than them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

A vaccine is the solution. This vaccine is not the solution.

Is that why for every 1 vaccinated person in the hospital with Covid there are 16 unvaccinated?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

It's the best treatment they have. It's not the cure.

[TheStig]

I think work from home and not having crowded events helps.

Completely agree. I can say my risk factors are way down. I'm around crowds way, way less than I used to be when I rode the metra every day into the city. Simply the number of people that I come into contact with where I would have a chance to get sick from them is probably literally down by 90%+.

I don't believe that wearing a bandana on your face makes an impactful change. I think if we would mass produce n95's that could make a impactful change. But wearing a thin cloth is not helping.

Any mask that you put on that you put your hand in front of it and blow out and can't feel your breath helps significantly in you stopping spreading your viral load to others. Your breath simply isn't putting your viral load into a wide area. This should be pretty intuitively obvious.

In terms of protection from receiving a viral load, I think that's a lot more questionable. I'd imagine it helps some, but I'd guess masks do a lot more to protect others from you than they do to protect you from others.

Beyond quality of mask, you simply have issues of whether people are consistent or not. Many people do not wear masks over the nose purposefully so they can breath easier and defeat the entire purpose.

How many people do you see out there wearing a mask like that? Everyone is wearing little paper things that do less than a kleenex.

[micromonkey]

In older pandemics -when we had no vaccines we have always seen waves-so it’s doubtful we would have had a one time off die off and then back to normal.  The Spanish flu had three waves and no vaccines. The black death ravaged areas for decades and smaller outbreaks still popped up over 300 years. I think they would have preferred a vaccine?

As for the vaccines causing variants-sure eventually it might-but in months-doubtful.  Some viruses seem to have larger pressures than others. Measles vaccine still works today decades later-we can tweak it as we go. We don't know about COVID yet--some are saying it doesn't have many mutations it can do and still be a threat to humans (AZ creator said as much today--not sure I buy it). But as soon as the updates come- just you wait-the same group complaining about vaccines causing variants will then say we rushed, we don’t know enough, it’s a government conspiracy etc on the updates.  Africa with its large HIV positive population with weakened immune systems--is more likely to be an issue for mutations than vaccines.

As for Israel v Sweden the vax rates are pretty similar today. Israel got 50% vaccinated by late Feb/early March-and we know 6 months later what happens to Pfizer efficacy-that’s right or drops. And 9/23 -is right past 6 months for half their population-which you know who got the first doses-yea the most vulnerable/older.  Israel and Sweden vax rate today is 62% fully vaxxed--for both. But it happened much more recently--Sweden didn't hit 50% 1 dose until early July.  

Overall Israel has 838.59 deaths per million and Sweden is at 1,439.8 per million. So that's how I explain what is going on in those 2 countries. So it isn't like Sweden is winning--in fact they are doing much worse (1.7x the deaths per capita) and it is a richer nation. So maybe Israel has slightly higher rates now but net/net their moves were better than Sweden.

The ideal dosing would have been spaced farther apart (4-6 months) but we went for closer to keep the death toll lower--so it worked--but now vulnerable groups will need a booster. And yes we knew this as both manufactures were already doing booster tests.

The potential pulmonary damage, kidney damage, and even grey matter loss from COVID--remains to be seen how bad the long term effects are. So whatever the issues with the vaccines are--they are a drop compared to the risks of nothing.

[Almost Retired]

OK. Then explain the results in Uttar Pradesh state in India. UP is a pretty densely populated area of India. That state alone has probably 65% of the population of America in total. And not to disparage India, or the Indian people, but their per capita wealth is much lower than ours. And that population density forces people to live in close proximity. Hygeine conditions are, most likely, diminished as compared to America. The situation was perfect for a severe outbreak. Yet the state has almost fully eradicated Covid despite having a vaccination rate closer to 11%. Indian clinicians attribute their success to the widespread use of prophylactic Ivermectin. Other states within India, such as Kerala in south India where they relied on mass vaccination, have seen much higher infection rates. You can digest and regurgitate what the mainstream media and our lying government tell you. Or you can look beyond the official propaganda at other places where your accepted theories don't hold water. Sweden. Israel. Uttar Pradesh. More countries are starting to follow India's lead and are starting to rely more on prophylaxis with safe, cheap and readily available ivermectin. You got the mRNA nano implant. Great. I did too. Reluctantly. Each individual has the right to make his or her own decision on the matter, free of coercion, shaming, and ridicule. We aren't communist China...yet. As in the words of one of my favorite movies of all time....Free Your Mind.

I take it by your shift of conversation from your point that was 100% disproven by objective fact that you now agree the first scenario you made up was completely fictional and that Delta actually spread through non vaccinated people and vaccinated people didn't create delta and your previous post was completely incorrect, and you'd now like to retract said post as 100% ignorance on your part?
[/b]
In terms of Ivermectin, I hope that it is studied and is very successful in treating COVID symptoms. Over the last year and change there have been a number of "wonder drugs" that were going to solve this, and the others did not. I sure hope Ivermectin is the one that does.

Given that Ivermectin is generally pushed only by people whom seem to be generally anti-vaccine, anti-mask, antigovernmental conspiracy theorists that argue about COVID as part of a political or ideological belief system rather than science, I'm very skeptical of anything they have to say.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns

As you dig into Ivermectin, many of the studies around it have been withdrawn, and it certainly would appear that someone is trying to just make a buck with Ivermectin.

I don't retract or disagree with anything I wrote previously. Since the link I tried to provide to the Quanta Magazine article apparently won't work it can be easily found under the Biology section at www.quantamagazine.org. The article is entitled "Vaccines Are Pushing Pathogens To Evolve" by Melinda Wenner Moyer, dated May 10, 2018. It pre-dates covid. But the principles laid out are just as relevant.

I never said Ivermectin was a CURE for Covid. What Ivermectin does is act as an ionophore, it allows more zinc ions to enter our cells. The zinc ions interfere with the viral replication. After an exposure the virus cannot get to critical mass to cause a serious case of Covid, except perhaps in those with serious co-morbidities. Ivermectin has to be taken around the time of exposure, certainly within the first 24-48 hours. Which is why in Uttar Pradesh state they were giving people a dose once a week....as a prophylactic measure. I go in and out of 3 hospitals on a pretty frequent basis. I've probably had dozens of small exposures of the virus just be bing inside the walls of the facilities. I've been on airplanes. I've been to 2 Music Festivals. Not even a sneeze. And I attribute that to my daily intake of quercetin, zinc, Vitamin D, Vit C and Tumeric. I don't worry about the alpha strain, the Delta variant or any other mutation that comes along unless our god-playing scientists really cook up a super-Covid bug that can defy zinc ions. Rely on the jabs. I've had 2 of the Moderna shots. But I won't be "encouraged" into getting any more. If I have to retire a few months early so be it.

I understand the business of pharmaceuticals pretty well since I've worked in the field for almost 40 years. Who exactly do you think makes any real money off a generic drug like Ivermectin that's been on the market worldwide for decades and no longer has patent protection? And how much money is being made by the companies producing the Covid jabs? If you want to follow a money trail look into who exactly is benefiting financially from the "vaccines". Who were the players seeking patents on Coronaviruses a decade or more ago?

[chifan1798]

Is that why for every 1 vaccinated person in the hospital with Covid there are 16 unvaccinated?

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It's the best treatment they have. It's not the cure.

If you are expecting a cure, you will be sorely disappointed. Viral illnesses don’t usually have cures. The best bet is to avoid having the viral illness, or to mitigate the symptoms when you get it. Why do you think that people with genital herpes are never cured, and they always have outbreaks? The antiviral medications that they take, are to help the symptoms of the outbreak. People with the Varicella (chicken pox) as children, can get Herpes Zoster later in life (shingles), because the virus is not killed or cured, it just remains dormant for a while, and not doing anything. Same with HIV….there’s no cure, but there are medications that can help with viral load, thus lessening the chance of transmission, or getting severe symptoms. There will likely never be a cure for COVID. The best bet is to limit your chance of catching the virus.

[TheStig]

Is that why for every 1 vaccinated person in the hospital with Covid there are 16 unvaccinated?

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It's the best treatment they have. It's not the cure.

If you are expecting a cure, you will be sorely disappointed. Viral illnesses don’t usually have cures. The best bet is to avoid having the viral illness, or to mitigate the symptoms when you get it. Why do you think that people with genital herpes are never cured, and they always have outbreaks? The antiviral medications that they take, are to help the symptoms of the outbreak. People with the Varicella (chicken pox) as children, can get Herpes Zoster later in life (shingles), because the virus is not killed or cured, it just remains dormant for a while, and not doing anything. Same with HIV….there’s no cure, but there are medications that can help with viral load, thus lessening the chance of transmission, or getting severe symptoms. There will likely never be a cure for COVID. The best bet is to limit your chance of catching the virus.

The measles vaccine has a 97% rate of preventing measles after both doses. That is effectively a cure. I'm not worried in interacting with anyone with measles and probably couldn't find someone if I tried.

A vaccine that requires the vaccinated be protected from the unvaccinated is not a real solution to Covid.

[Almost Retired]

Stig, this should unleash a firestorm:
https://rightsfreedoms.wordpress.com/2021/06/16/researcher-we-made-a-big-mistake-on-covid-19-vaccine/

[micromonkey]

If you actually read the quanta article (it's there)--the timelines they are dealing with are much different. And it varies from virus to virus. It was a decade with Prevnar/pneumonia.

Its valid--but its not a valid concern yet. And we don't know if Covid will be like pneumonia or like other viruses that have been stable for multiple decades.

Delta-India
Mu-Colombia
Neither were highly vaccinated.
I think we are a ways off from worrying about that--its potentially a longer term concern--not a 2021-2023 concern.

We will possibly have vaccines that will prevent escape/mutation. It can obviously mutate but where it would mutate would be to not hurting humans.

Remember these mRNA vaccines were done in 2 weeks--with the best available information. With more time we can likely develop far better ones but these are working fine as far as keeping folks out of the morgue and/or long term damage.

Its also possible it fizzles out like the 4 other coronaviruses that circulate--not disappearing but not common or causing any real damage.

[micromonkey]

Stig, this should unleash a firestorm:
https://rightsfreedoms.wordpress.com/2021/06/16/researcher-we-made-a-big-mistake-on-covid-19-vaccine/

If you actually read other research you would know this is all garbage.

#1 anyone using Mercola as a reference for anything other than essential oils for toenail fungus--will be sadly misinformed
#2 As expected--no links to anything
#3 the scary stuff is referring to the spike protein of actual SARS-COV2 - I agree on that--which is why you don't want the actual virus.
#4 the mRNA do not have the actual or attenuated spike protein (more misinformation)

“We made a big mistake,” Bridle says. “We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen; we never knew the spike protein itself was a toxin and was a pathogenic protein. So, by vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin.”

Whomever this guy is--is either an outright scammer or idiot. None of these people have a basic understanding of what is in the mRNA vaccine--or more likely--they do and are misleading others.

They are not using the entire spike protein. In fact they obviously knew it was a toxin so they targeted it in a clever way. It does not attach the same way as the actual wild spike protein which fuses to the cell membranes and initiates cellular infection.

In the mRNA spike protein-2 proline amino acids were inserted to lock the spike protein into its pre-fusion conformation. It can't fuse and infect.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7945883/

All it does is deliver a proline locked spike protein that the body sees and develops antibodies and immune response to. It isn't exactly the same--but enough for the body to generate a response.

(Had you watched the video refuting this conspiracy belief 5 pages ago you would be wise to these crap tactics--but clearly you have only one misguided agenda)

So all of the arguments by Mercola are bunk because he's talking apples and oranges. They are not using spike protein (which is bad) they are using a proline locked version--proline isn't mentioned in that article because in addition to being liars---they are lazy

This is a drive by argument, A link to a bad blog with no references and purposeful misrepresentation of facts. Yes the spike protein does all these terrible things--it is known. NO the mRNA does NOT use the actual spike protein--so the whole premise is flawed.

But again you refuse to look at any sources other than sketchy websites--there is no real debate. You just poop post garbage references of dubious quality, refuse any better peer reviewed / published data and move on spreading FUD with no real data.

The quacks really need to get better arguments-a basic biochem student who can read articles can quickly swat down all these "arguments".

[tedwilliams1999]

I just wanted to leave a few coronavirus resources here from experts around the world:

https://www.nejm.org/coronavirus

https://www.thelancet.com/coronavirus

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/pages/coronavirus-alert

Just get vaccinated and get the boosters as they roll out to cover additional variants - these vaccines are safer than getting into and driving a car in the US, and they're safer than a lot of the medicines you're probably taking over the counter.

[dougthonus]

Yep. Herd immunity at 70% and vaccine would end COVID. Neither have. The vaccine is very effective at taking the edge off of Covid and keeping you from a hospital or death. I have plenty of friends that partied it up in crowds after the vaccine and got COVID. Pretty much everyone I’m talking to now has come to terms with getting COVID. No way around it unless you don’t leave your home. No way back to normal anytime soon without getting it. The vaccine lessens the symptoms.

The vaccine definitely isn't bullet proof and lots of people who get the vaccine are still getting more minor symptoms, and I know many vaccinated people whom are in that boat as well.

At the same time, I also know many people where one person got it and no one else in their house was vaccinated got it, whereas before the vaccine, everyone I knew who shared a house once one person got it the whole family was sick. The vaccine does still seem to prevent many people from getting it too. It isn't _only_ taking the edge off, in many, many cases it is preventative as well. Also, taking the edge off is a pretty light way to describe potentially moving you from being dead to being sick to a week.

[Stratmaster]

A vaccine is the solution. This vaccine is not the solution.

Is that why for every 1 vaccinated person in the hospital with Covid there are 16 unvaccinated?

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I cover 3 of the largest hospitals in Austin. That's not what I've seen over the past 6 weeks. At least 30-40% of our Covid admits have been fully vaccinated. I will say that there have been more breakthrough infections in patients who received the J & J jab. The Moderna jab does seem to be less represented among the vaccinated breakthroughs. Early on a lot of patients were enticed to go with the J & J jab because it promised to be a one shot deal. Moderna and Pfizer required 2 jabs.

Your numbers are way off what the CDC and other health facilities are reporting so I don't know what to tell you. Have you looked up the stats from those 3 hospitals you cover?

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[Stratmaster]

A vaccine is the solution. This vaccine is not the solution.

Is that why for every 1 vaccinated person in the hospital with Covid there are 16 unvaccinated?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

It's the best treatment they have. It's not the cure.

No one has ever claimed its a cure. Vaccines aren't cures. The simply stimulate an immune system response that the cells in the body remember should you cone in contact with the actual virus.

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[Stratmaster]

Stig, this should unleash a firestorm:
https://rightsfreedoms.wordpress.com/2021/06/16/researcher-we-made-a-big-mistake-on-covid-19-vaccine/

If you actually read other research you would know this is all garbage.

#1 anyone using Mercola as a reference for anything other than essential oils for toenail fungus--will be sadly misinformed
#2 As expected--no links to anything
#3 the scary stuff is referring to the spike protein of actual SARS-COV2 - I agree on that--which is why you don't want the actual virus.
#4 the mRNA do not have the actual or attenuated spike protein (more misinformation)

“We made a big mistake,” Bridle says. “We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen; we never knew the spike protein itself was a toxin and was a pathogenic protein. So, by vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin.”

Whomever this guy is--is either an outright scammer or idiot. None of these people have a basic understanding of what is in the mRNA vaccine--or more likely--they do and are misleading others.

They are not using the entire spike protein. In fact they obviously knew it was a toxin so they targeted it in a clever way. It does not attach the same way as the actual wild spike protein which fuses to the cell membranes and initiates cellular infection.

In the mRNA spike protein-2 proline amino acids were inserted to lock the spike protein into its pre-fusion conformation. It can't fuse and infect.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7945883/

All it does is deliver a proline locked spike protein that the body sees and develops antibodies and immune response to. It isn't exactly the same--but enough for the body to generate a response.

(Had you watched the video refuting this conspiracy belief 5 pages ago you would be wise to these crap tactics--but clearly you have only one misguided agenda)

So all of the arguments by Mercola are bunk because he's talking apples and oranges. They are not using spike protein (which is bad) they are using a proline locked version--proline isn't mentioned in that article because in addition to being liars---they are lazy

This is a drive by argument, A link to a bad blog with no references and purposeful misrepresentation of facts. Yes the spike protein does all these terrible things--it is known. NO the mRNA does NOT use the actual spike protein--so the whole premise is flawed.

But again you refuse to look at any sources other than sketchy websites--there is no real debate. You just poop post garbage references of dubious quality, refuse any better peer reviewed / published data and move on spreading FUD with no real data.

The quacks really need to get better arguments-a basic biochem student who can read articles can quickly swat down all these "arguments".

What I don't get is why people want so badly for this vaccine to be a failure that they search out people like Mercola to reinforce their preconceived agenda.

It boggles the mind.

Not to mention most these guys are selling some supplement they claim is really what you need... against all the real experts advice.

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[dougthonus]

I don't retract or disagree with anything I wrote previously. Since the link I tried to provide to the Quanta Magazine article apparently won't work it can be easily found under the Biology section at www.quantamagazine.org. The article is entitled "Vaccines Are Pushing Pathogens To Evolve" by Melinda Wenner Moyer, dated May 10, 2018. It pre-dates covid. But the principles laid out are just as relevant.

So you then know what actually happened. We agree that Delta was not caused by vaccines because it came into prominence before vaccines existed in an area which has a 0% vaccination rate. So you agree that happened, but you still want to talk about something that didn't happen and pretend it did happen and then make decisions based on your fictional reality when you agree that the objective, factual reality is different?

I can't think of a more intellectually dishonest position to take.

I never said Ivermectin was a CURE for Covid. What Ivermectin does is act as an ionophore, it allows more zinc ions to enter our cells. The zinc ions interfere with the viral replication. After an exposure the virus cannot get to critical mass to cause a serious case of Covid, except perhaps in those with serious co-morbidities.

Zinc has been tested for other much less dangerous viral infections for decades and has no conclusive evidence for it. There was a lot of hype over it for a long time for all kinds of stuff up until people realized Zicam and its like is just a scam.

Ivermectin has to be taken around the time of exposure, certainly within the first 24-48 hours. Which is why in Uttar Pradesh state they were giving people a dose once a week....as a prophylactic measure. I go in and out of 3 hospitals on a pretty frequent basis. I've probably had dozens of small exposures of the virus just be bing inside the walls of the facilities. I've been on airplanes. I've been to 2 Music Festivals. Not even a sneeze. And I attribute that to my daily intake of quercetin, zinc, Vitamin D, Vit C and Tumeric. I don't worry about the alpha strain, the Delta variant or any other mutation that comes along unless our god-playing scientists really cook up a super-Covid bug that can defy zinc ions. Rely on the jabs. I've had 2 of the Moderna shots. But I won't be "encouraged" into getting any more. If I have to retire a few months early so be it.

So you have decided based on nothing other than your preconceived notion that vaccines are bad and filled with microchips that it was the Zinc rather than a vaccine that helped you from getting COVID.

I understand the business of pharmaceuticals pretty well since I've worked in the field for almost 40 years. Who exactly do you think makes any real money off a generic drug like Ivermectin that's been on the market worldwide for decades and no longer has patent protection? And how much money is being made by the companies producing the Covid jabs? If you want to follow a money trail look into who exactly is benefiting financially from the "vaccines". Who were the players seeking patents on Coronaviruses a decade or more ago?

I absolutely think that large pharmaceutical companies are happy to make money off vaccines. Where you lost me is where all the scientists not at large pharmaceutical companies and all of the governments around the world that are paying for the vaccines are going to just agree to go along with it.

Whether Ivermectin is generic or not, people will sell it and people will try and hoard it for profit if they can convince it is a wonder drug. The author of the study you linked has a web page that is nothing but him pushing Ivermectin, you don't think he is biased? He's far more obviously biased.

I don't have a strong trust in Pfizer or Moderna, but the affects of their vaccines have data points around a billion each if I'm guessing. They have been rigorously and thoroughly studied by third parties at this point and the affects both good and bad are now well known and defined.

[Chi town]

Yep. Herd immunity at 70% and vaccine would end COVID. Neither have. The vaccine is very effective at taking the edge off of Covid and keeping you from a hospital or death. I have plenty of friends that partied it up in crowds after the vaccine and got COVID. Pretty much everyone I’m talking to now has come to terms with getting COVID. No way around it unless you don’t leave your home. No way back to normal anytime soon without getting it. The vaccine lessens the symptoms.

The vaccine definitely isn't bullet proof and lots of people who get the vaccine are still getting more minor symptoms, and I know many vaccinated people whom are in that boat as well.

At the same time, I also know many people where one person got it and no one else in their house was vaccinated got it, whereas before the vaccine, everyone I knew who shared a house once one person got it the whole family was sick. The vaccine does still seem to prevent many people from getting it too. It isn't _only_ taking the edge off, in many, many cases it is preventative as well. Also, taking the edge off is a pretty light way to describe potentially moving you from being dead to being sick to a week.

I know half a dozen couples where one person got it and the spouse didn’t. Shared rooms etc. Kind of mind boggling.

I’m hearing more of long COVID from people that have had it. Low energy for months.

Also have over a dozen friends that have told me after the vaccine they had brain fog for a couple of weeks. Scattered thoughts. Know several more middle aged healthy males with blood clots post vaccine too. Overall vaccine is effective but still has risks. I understand healthy people that have had Covid being vacc hesitant.

[micromonkey]

Although it is not yet proven--one hypothesis is those having severe vaccine reactions are likely to have been people severely affected by actual covid. Or at least a large percentage would likely have been. When you hear about Clapton and then realize he has peripheral neuropathy--then yes he was already in a very high risk category--the real thing might have been much worse damage or death.

The real risk is younger males and myocarditis.
Yet this isn't unique to mRNA or somehow have anything to to with the delivery method. Like the smallpox vaccine--its based on the immune response (likely overreaction).

Based on the old smallpox vaccine myocarditis was seen in
16.1 per 100, 000

The rate with mRNA COVID vaccines is
12.6 20 per 1 million

So while of course its not perfect--these side effects are are more than 10x less likely than with the old smallpox vaccine.
I think we are all doing the best we can--big pharma included.

[micromonkey]

What I don't get is why people want so badly for this vaccine to be a failure that they search out people like Mercola to reinforce their preconceived agenda.

It boggles the mind.

Not to mention most these guys are selling some supplement they claim is really what you need... against all the real experts advice.

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It points to the motivations IMO.
There are real issues (myocarditis/clots) but none are out of range with past vaccines. Reasonable people understand no vaccine is perfect and that there are always risks for side effects. Although I know no one who had anything serious at all. I had nothing at all from moderna--only minor arm pain.

It really is about muddying the waters--FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt)--for what gain? To get some website clicks, sell some magic beans--to gain a niche tribe/crowd built on shared lies? All of the above it seems. And there are cheap therapeutics that do work and the establishment regularly uses--yet the hucksters won't mention that--doesn't fit the narrative. There is also an underlying theme of attained secret knowledge--that is enticing to some people.

It's similar to the playbook for HIV--blame it on some government conspiracy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4265931/
Sadly the same tropes are playing out just a change in players.

I just hope casual readers don't fall for any of it.