Official Trade Thread Part XLV

[payitforward]

But wait...
since we don't have Bertans, we have to find an alternative way to trade for Porzingis.

How about this?

Spoiler:

They were eager to move him, obviously, so how about this: Dinwiddie plus our '22 R1 pick for KP plus their '23 R1 pick.

So... we don't have Johnny Davis, but we do have the #8 & 10 picks in this draft!

& here's the best part:

Spoiler:

Watching what Tommy has done, the Clippers hire him away from us & fire Michael Winger -- who comes here! Bringing Will Dawkins naturally....

[Jay81]

just like terrible players can have great games...terrible Gms can make some good moves. Tommy made some good trades but his #1 job is evalulate his own talent and evaluate talent that he can bring in and he was terrible at that. And that makes him a terrible GM. Not only do you set your team back significantly when you miss on a draft pick, but you also help the other team your competing against get better when that players lands with them. Tommy what everyone feared. Ernie 2.0. Playing for the 8 seed and missing on draft picks. What him and his scouts saw in Deni to have him first on their board even willing to trade up to 4....omg...and then there is Johnny davis. Rui was picked too high at 9. You can have the best plan in the world, but if you can build a roster through the most important tool out there(the draft)---the plan will never work. Tommys last year was historically bad...almost as bad as ernie 2016. Signing Beal to that awful contract with NT Clause. THe pick of johnny davis...and then wtf we picked in the 2nd round. then trading for an ernie player like Wil Barton...not trading Kuzma or Delon at trading deadline....not getting any value for trading Rui....and then the worst sin of last year...not properly tanking for a top 3 pick....unforgivable and terrible. Tommy was terrible. but he made a few good trades. I mean he was so bad..Ted fired him...and Ted fires nobody

[nate33]

@nate -- I love it! & I think that one difference alone makes us better than a .500 team.
Haliburton's performance in his 3d season has catapulted him into a true star -- a superstar if it continues!

Now think about this: what if we take Boston's offer of a late R1 pick in that same draft in return for Bertans -- & we pick Desmond Bane. Then we trade up for Tillman instead of letting Memphis do it!

We are the best young team in the league.
Instead of being fired, Tommy is NBA Executive of the year!

Yes, there are certainly other woulda, shoulda coulda's. But the Haliburton error was easily the most obvious to see happening in real time. And that single mistake had profound consequences.

Though I suppose if we are being real about it, if we drafted Haliburton, we probably wouldn't have expanded the Westbrook trade to include absorbing Dinwiddie into the TPE. And without Dinwiddie, we couldn't have acquired Porzingis. So that revisionist timeline is probably unrealistic.

[payitforward]

No doubt. Once you go back & make a change, nothing looks the same going forward from that point. Might have been good might have been bad -- you can't know.

That said, Dallas was eager to move KP, so if we'd wanted him there might well have been a way.
In any case, with Haliburton many things change -- e.g. we probably have a different pick position in '21. & in '22.

[doclinkin]

Depending on what happens on draft day, I could see Portland considering a Kuzma sign-and-trade for Anfernee Simons.

As far as counting stats its almost a wash. Simons is younger, Kuz has the championship pedigree and upgraded defensive awareness.
Otherwise per 36 numbers they score and assist at the same rate, at the same number of possessions, with Simons shooting better from outside and Kuz rebounding well.

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3476&player_ids%5B%5D=3285&season=2022

Not much of an upgrade for the Wiz, but in a something for nothing trade it benefits the Wizards, where Portland shifts from youth to a more experienced player at a position of need. Not sure either team could demand extra incentive from the other. Wiz get an upside player who likely helps the tank, and is a fallback at 2 guard if Beal agrees to a swap somewhere.

I think I'd like it better if a 3rd team was involved as a destination for Simons with the Wiz getting back I dunno what. Future picks and a prospect I guess.

[payitforward]

I don't like that much as a move, doc. Simons is not good -- he's a pretty good shooter but way way below average at everything else. Above all, & he's guaranteed almost $80m over the next 3 seasons. That's the last thing a rebuilding team needs.

Your last para nails it: "future picks & a prospect" would be ideal.

[nate33]

Depending on what happens on draft day, I could see Portland considering a Kuzma sign-and-trade for Anfernee Simons.

As far as counting stats its almost a wash. Simons is younger, Kuz has the championship pedigree and upgraded defensive awareness.
Otherwise per 36 numbers they score and assist at the same rate, at the same number of possessions, with Simons shooting better from outside and Kuz rebounding well.

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3476&player_ids%5B%5D=3285&season=2022

Not much of an upgrade for the Wiz, but in a something for nothing trade it benefits the Wizards, where Portland shifts from youth to a more experienced player at a position of need. Not sure either team could demand extra incentive from the other. Wiz get an upside player who likely helps the tank, and is a fallback at 2 guard if Beal agrees to a swap somewhere.

I think I'd like it better if a 3rd team was involved as a destination for Simons with the Wiz getting back I dunno what. Future picks and a prospect I guess.

I get the idea behind getting younger, but I just don't see Simons as a guy that starts on a championship team. Kuzma won't be good enough to start by the time we are a contender either. Basically, I don't really want either of them, so to me, the choice between the two simply comes down to which of the two players had better trade value. I'd say that's Kuzma. So I wouldn't swap him for Simons.

[payitforward]

Plus, Simons comes with the very problem we trying to avoid by trading Kuzma -- a big, multi-season, guaranteed contract at a level well above the guy's productivity.

Yet, we really won't be able to trade Kuz for "picks & a prospect." A sign and trade deal will have to return a salary high enough to make the move legal.

Obviously, we'll want that to be an expiring contract if at all possible.

Could there be a deal w/ the Clippers in which they pick up Gordon's option & we live with it for a year? Seems like we have the ideal new FO guy to make that work!!

[Dat2U]

Simons just turned is 24 coming off a season averaging more than 20 ppg on 58 TS%. Viewing him as a problem contract seems like a stretch and thinking he cannot improve is presumptive. Yall sounding like he's Brad's age. I like that he's had some of his best peformances with Lillard out and think he could tackle a bigger scoring role if needed. I would have no problem with Simons on the Wizards.

[tleikheen]

Simons is not good -- he's a pretty good shooter but way way below average at everything else.

This is just so clueless and stupid ...... Simons turned 24 just 3 days ago and for a young age has shot 39 percent on 3pters on 1541 attempts . He finished 4th in 3 pts (3.4) made per game this past season and he is a past slam dunk champion already . When Dame is injured and Simons plays PG is avg jumps up to 25 ppg . On a rebuilding team you dont want a guy this good at PG and call him not good . He would be able to go up against ALL Eastern PGs and with his athleticism and long range gunning and easily hold up his own . The solid 3 would become the Big 3 with Simons/Beal/Porzingis.

[joshuacf]

Simons is not good -- he's a pretty good shooter but way way below average at everything else.

This is just so clueless and stupid ...... Simons turned 24 just 3 days ago and for a young age has shot 39 percent on 3pters on 1541 attempts . He finished 4th in 3 pts (3.4) made per game this past season and he is a past slam dunk champion already . When Dame is injured and Simons plays PG is avg jumps up to 25 ppg . On a rebuilding team you dont want a guy this good at PG and call him not good . He would be able to go up against ALL Eastern PGs and with his athleticism and long range gunning and easily hold up his own . The solid 3 would become the Big 3 with Simons/Beal/Porzingis.

A Kuzma for Simons swap is not going to turn this team around.

I think Simons is a good player. I'd be interested in taking him; he's only 24, a great shooter, and can score. But he's not an elite player in the league. He's not even an All-Star. Swapping him for Kuzma and then expecting us to be a good team isn't a viable strategy IMO.

Beal 100% has to go for us to be able to do anything. At the absolute height of his powers, Beal might have been a guy who could have led a team to an ECF if the team around him was superb. He was never the #1 guy on a championship team.

At this stage in his career, Beal is likely the third-best player on a championship team. The guy may not even be capable of leading a team to the playoffs anymore. Trading for Simons and running it back with Beal/KP/Simons isn't getting us anywhere.

All that being said, I'd happily take Simons if it meant getting out of Beal's contract.

[payitforward]

Sadly, it seems that tleikheen can't be reformed. He is unable to write a post disagreeing with someone without starting it by calling the person names.

I like the fact that he or anyone has strong opinions, a real point of view, but this other stuff is just not ok. If it doesn't stop soon, I'll just put tleikheen on "Ignore," so that his posts simply don't show up on the page. Not something I want to do....

[payitforward]

...I think Simons is a good player....

Every player in the NBA is a good player, obviously.
On the numbers, Simons is a pretty good scorer (as I've already written) -- no question about it.

But his being a good scorer doesn't suffice to make him an above average NBA player overall. & he's guaranteed too much $$ for too long to be worth pursuing. As you say...

...he's not an elite player in the league....

OTOH...

...I'd happily take Simons if it meant getting out of Beal's contract.

...makes sense. He'd have the runway to develop if he's going to. Meanwhile, we'd have moved off of Brad & gained flexibiity.

[gambitx777]

...I think Simons is a good player....

Every player in the NBA is a good player, obviously.
On the numbers, Simons is a pretty good scorer (as I've already written) -- no question about it.

But his being a good scorer doesn't suffice to make him an above average NBA player overall. & he's guaranteed too much $$ for too long to be worth pursuing. As you say...

...he's not an elite player in the league....

OTOH...

...I'd happily take Simons if it meant getting out of Beal's contract.

...makes sense. He'd have the runway to develop if he's going to. Meanwhile, we'd have moved off of Brad & gained flexibiity.

Are you saying that Eric Maynard was a good player?

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

[penbeast0]

Are you saying that Eric Maynard was a good player?

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

Horrible NBA player of course; but he was impressive in college and take him out to Candy Cane City and he'd be the bomb.

[doclinkin]

Simons just turned is 24 coming off a season averaging more than 20 ppg on 58 TS%. Viewing him as a problem contract seems like a stretch and thinking he cannot improve is presumptive. Yall sounding like he's Brad's age. I like that he's had some of his best peformances with Lillard out and think he could tackle a bigger scoring role if needed. I would have no problem with Simons on the Wizards.

A Kuzma for Simons swap is not going to turn this team around.

I think Simons is a good player. I'd be interested in taking him; he's only 24, a great shooter, and can score. But he's not an elite player in the league. He's not even an All-Star. Swapping him for Kuzma and then expecting us to be a good team isn't a viable strategy IMO..

Right. I said he was on par with Kuzma, which suggests we'd still be a 30-some win team. The thought was if we were going to lose Kuzma for nothing, we might get an asset back. Not towards a championship, but as a tradable piece under team control. We lack sufficient assets to waste any opportunities to land them. Is SImons a winning player? No. He's a dynamic scorer. Teams will pay for scorers. Overpay even. So landing an asset that we can later swap may be an early step towards a better result.

If we can do it with a 3rd team involved and land picks plus overlooked prospects the analytics like, then great. If not, I don't hate the idea of landing a dynamic scorer who looks the part, has a chance to improve, is under team control for a few years, and potentially helps the tank while still putting up numbers.

Plus we might be able to leverage more in the swap. Portland is hot to add veterans. Whatever we think about Kuzma, players respect him. He has shown a few games a year where he can pull off a triple double, or get hot and go for upwards of 30 points, or a string of double doubles. There will be teams bidding for him. If P-land gets in on the bidding war in order to appease Dame, then they might offer this or that to take Simons, now that Shaeden Sharpe is showing something. Otherwise we take whatever deal is an upgrade. I think Kuzma gets 25 mil a year. We have to take back a portion of that, unless we can get another team involved and get future picks and a giant trade exception.

[payitforward]

Well, this is speculative -- but of course if there's more coming back than Simons then it deserves more consideration.

Still, keep in mind that Simons is guaranteed $78m. & I'm not sure why he would be more tradable than Kuzma.

It's certainly true that he's a pretty good scorer -- he's posted a .584 TS% over the combined last two years combined, which is not as good as late-career Brad this last year (& not near as good as mid-career Brad) but still pretty good.

Of course, Simons is still young & may improve. But keep in mind that at his age, Brad already had his breakout season behind him. Not to mention that Simons is being paid as if he'd already had that kind of season -- & has 3 guaranteed seasons ahead of him.

Kuz is about to get way overpaid. Moving him for a guy who is already overpaid doesn't seem like a smart way to deal with the problem.

[nate33]

Simons is not good -- he's a pretty good shooter but way way below average at everything else.

This is just so clueless and stupid ...... Simons turned 24 just 3 days ago and for a young age has shot 39 percent on 3pters on 1541 attempts . He finished 4th in 3 pts (3.4) made per game this past season and he is a past slam dunk champion already . When Dame is injured and Simons plays PG is avg jumps up to 25 ppg . On a rebuilding team you dont want a guy this good at PG and call him not good . He would be able to go up against ALL Eastern PGs and with his athleticism and long range gunning and easily hold up his own . The solid 3 would become the Big 3 with Simons/Beal/Porzingis.

You can do better tleikheen.

[tleikheen]

You can do better tleikheen

Monitor both directions where Ive let alot of statements pass on my intelligence and character. I could pull them all up and show and nothing was said when it went my direction .

[payitforward]

Simons just turned is 24 coming off a season averaging more than 20 ppg on 58 TS%. Viewing him as a problem contract seems like a stretch and thinking he cannot improve is presumptive. Yall sounding like he's Brad's age. I like that he's had some of his best peformances with Lillard out and think he could tackle a bigger scoring role if needed. I would have no problem with Simons on the Wizards.

My objection is not to Anfernee Simons, nor would I presume that he has no more development in him. We don't know that his game will improve, but I certainly wouldn't deny the possibility.

Of course, I might be more optimistic if his '22-23 numbers were better than his '21-22 numbers. They aren't. Nor were his '21-22 numbers a big jump (or even a little one) over his '20-21 numbers.

You're aware of that, right Dat?

To be more specific, you are aware that his 3pt % & TS% were both higher in 21-22 than in '22-23. Right?
Oh, & you were also aware that both were also higher in '20-21 than they were in '21-22? Correct?

You knew about that trend -- for example, that his 3pt% went down from 42.5% to 40.5% to 37.8% over the 3 seasons -- right?

Are those the kinds of facts that make you "think he could tackle a bigger scoring role if needed?"
Or is it just the fact that he scored more when Dame wasn't playing (gee... what a surprise!)?

Now... it is certainly true that Simons is still young -- just turned 24 & going into his 6th season.
In fact, both his age & where he are in his career are exactly the same as Brad as he was about to start the 2017-18 season.

With the slight difference, of course, that Brad had just come off a true breakout season (2016-17) about a zillion times better than anything Simons has even sniffed at.

Now... don't get me wrong. It's possible that Simons will continue developing -- or maybe better say that he'll start developing again, as he did his first 3 seasons in the league.

My objection is to the fact that Simons is already paid as if he was already good.
He's looking at 3 guaranteed years ahead. For a total of almost $78m.

To put it another way, this whole subject comes up in a discussion of how to move Kyle Kuzma. So that we don't do something foolish like sign him for 3 years at about $78m.

Acquiring Simons in his place is just giving the same problem a different name.