Is Wall Top 5 PG?

[payitforward]

...What I think is Wizards fans are somewhat haters- there really isn't a way to know if he is top 5 because it's somewhat subjective. We all know I he is pretty good and that he is better than Most. But the difference between the 3-9 is very subjective and dependent on the players around them.

Why would Wizards fans be "haters" more than fans of any other team? I mean, a lot of us are sick to death of Ernie and his history of ham-handed, ineffective moves. But, I don't see any Wall-"haters" around here.

Whether someone is in the top 5 doesn't seem subjective to me, any more than "pretty good and... better than most." Why is it more subjective than who the top 3 are? They have players around them too.

Basically, Curry is miles better than anyone, and Westbrook and Paul are significantly better than the rest. The numbers show that. And the numbers also show -- in exactly the same way -- that Lowry, Rondo & Rubio are significantly better than the next tier of players, which is where John Wall sits.

For example Kyrie and Kevin Love where considered significantly better before they teamed up with Lebron...so did they fall off or is their "ranking" dependent on how the play within the team concept? I distinctly remember all these wizards fans saying they would like to have Kyrie over John but...now?...

Kyrie Irving was outstanding his rookie year -- for a rookie. And he was 19 to boot, coming off 1 year at Duke, in which he played all of 11 games! He was much better as a rookie than Wall was. Better as a rookie than Wall was his 3d year in the league.

So it was no surprise that people were blown away and talked him up. But, he hasn't developed, and what was amazing for a rookie ain't all that great in your 5th season. That's all there is to it. His numbers haven't changed much. Note that this isn't "subjective" either.

[payitforward]

"Wall is not seen as top 5" -- not that I think you disagree, I just want to point out that this is a matter of analysis not of how someone is "seen." E.g. if you look at Lowry's numbers, or even at Rondo's numbers or Rubio's, the overall higher level of their play jumps out at you.

Do you really think the people here that claim Wall is a top 5 pg are analyzing the numbers?

I appreciate that you analyze the numbers and I do take them into consideration but I know that being a fan sways some people to hold their players to a higher than reasonable standard and others to give them leeway when they make mistakes.

All you guys that think that the numbers telling you Rondo and Rubio are better than John invalidate your argument to someone like me. You are the same guys saying the Wiz are better with Temple on the floor than Beal. You think LL better than KoolMoeD. Hell-some of you may even be ballers and you would have voted for Harden as MVP last year over Curry. I get it...there is some number somewhere that tells you that what you are READING about Rubio and Rondo make them better than Wall. When the GM of Timberwolves wants to start Zach at point and has been shopping Rubio for over a year. AND Rubio isn't even the leader of his team when John would take that team to play off levels (IMO) and LEAD that team. And Rondo's attitude makes him a team MUCH Better than wall in some distant bizarre dimision that doesn't include Danny Ainge, George Karl, Mark Cuban or Ray Allen.

So if your analysis of the numbers tell you that Rondo or Rubio are better than John and you worked for me...I would make you have you queries doubled checked and your analysis audited before I fired your....for letting misleading data get turned into information and presenting this information as facts which clearly contradict observable evidence.

Oh yeah, well if you worked for me I'd make you go back and run spell check before I fired your... for letting your homer prejudices be paraded as if they were information and then disregarding the clearly observable evidence that shows how wrong you are, yes I would I really would so there!

OTOH, you are a Wizards fan, so I give you a pass on your insistent desire to over-rate John Wall. He's a heck of a basketball player, a heck of a point guard, just not as good as you think. Well, no, "think" doesn't have much to do with it -- say, just not as good as you want him to be.

I don't know why "top 5" is so important, btw. John Wall's performance level sure as h#ll isn't a problem, it's not what's wrong w/ this franchise. What's wrong is simple: we're living with the results of too many mistaken moves by a GM who isn't competitive w/ his counterparts on other teams. When you blow 6 picks in 4 years (3 in 2011, 1 in 2012, 1 in 2013, 1 in 2014) and give away pointlessly another 3 picks in that same span, and then hamstring your future by trading away 3 future picks, and then you are a sub .500 team, we can conclude that you are *not* in the top 5 GMs.

[montestewart]

I used to enjoy reading threads on this board. Now, every thread is full of anti-stats, eye-test homers. Might as well be reading BF.

I attribute it to the rise of Trump.

Every year I make my prediction for the Wizards season and have to endure epithets from the anti-stat homers about how I'm a hater, don't understand the game, probably never played it, have Dish, use dryer sheets, etc. And every year my prediction is either right on or the Wizards win total falls short of my prediction. A consistently accurate prediction, based on past performance and realistic variables, is only pessimism in the eyes of the illogical optimist. Deneem predicted 57 wins for 2013-14 season, and 57 wins again for the 2014-15 season. (Verbal8 predicted 83-0 for for the 2014-15 season. deneem4 was more realistic by comparison.)

It's fascism, I tell you, fascism.

PS: I still miss hands.

[payitforward]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

What you just said proves my point. Sessions has a better TS and less turnovers yet Wall is 10x a better player. That stuff doesn't tell the whole story

You are so right -- "that stuff" (i.e. TS% and Turnovers) doesn't tell the whole story. You have to add the other stuff: assists, steals, rebounding, fouls, blocks, etc. before you get to the whole story.

But that doesn't mean 17 turnovers in 2 games is ok, does it? Or maybe you think it is -- tell me, is it ok?

Kyle Lowry gets the line 35% more often than John Wall, and he shoots 83.7% to Wall's 78%. Is that some more of the "stuff" that "doesn't tell the whole story"??

Lowry shoots 16.7 times in 40 minutes, and those shots produce 17.7 points. Wall takes 2.8 more shots to produce .7 more points. More meaningless stuff?

tontoz was making a specific point. Wall's turnovers and his missed shots -- and his missed free throws too -- are on him, not on his supporting cast, which is what deneem was claiming.

[payitforward]

Seriously I've been on a ton of boards and this is by far the most negative on the site. All you guys do is hate on everything. The guy is over 20pts, 10ast, 5reb, 2stls, and 1blk even after the worst November you will ever see on a roster that you guys say suck even when healthy let alone leading the league in injuries and the worst coaching staff in the league

You're being a twerp, which is unusual for you. No one is hating on John Wall. He just isn't one of the top 5 PGs in the league -- I'd say this season he's about #8.

And all these terrible things people are saying about him -- i.e. he turns it over a lot -- are just brought up as the things that, if they changed, would make it possible to say that, yes, John Wall is a "top 5 PG", which is what this thread is about.

[dlts20]

Nothing would make me happier than to see us sneak in the playoffs and matchup with the Raps just to see Wall bust Lowry's asz. No way are you going to convince me that he and some of the others you guys named are better. Don't tell me about what he shoots unless you are factoring coaching, injuries, and a All Star penetrating machine like Derozan starting next to him all year while Wall has Garrett "d-league" Temple beside him most of the year. Those numbers would change alot

[dlts20]

Again this is John Wall we are talking about. He wants to pass first. If we get KD next year with a full season Beal and Morris then i think we all agree that he would pass even more while also being more efficient but when you are encouraged to shoot midrange J's and you are passing alot to Temple & Porter who are bricking or career role players like Dud, Hump, Blair, Golden, or Eddie then you will be forced to shoot more and will be less efficient.

[nate33]

Seriously I've been on a ton of boards and this is by far the most negative on the site. All you guys do is hate on everything. The guy is over 20pts, 10ast, 5reb, 2stls, and 1blk even after the worst November you will ever see on a roster that you guys say suck even when healthy let alone leading the league in injuries and the worst coaching staff in the league

We are not negative. We are realistic.

When people say ridiculous things like Wall is a top 5 PG, we point out why that is not the case. That doesn't mean Wall isn't a really good player. It's just that he has enough warts in his game to keep him out of the top 5. (He is out of the top 5 this year. Last year, he had a real good argument to be in the top 4-7 range.)

But at the same time, when people say ridiculous things like Gortat is a lousy center who shouldn't start, we point out that Gortat is actually quite good and very consistent. Gortat is an above-average center and arguably our best player this season.

The same people who you think are "haters" because they point out that Beal is an utterly average SG who doesn't even rank among the top 15 SG's this season will also point out that Porter is an underrated player who is possibly a top 10 SF.

[CobraCommander]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

What you just said proves my point. Sessions has a better TS and less turnovers yet Wall is 10x a better player. That stuff doesn't tell the whole story

You are so right -- "that stuff" (i.e. TS% and Turnovers) doesn't tell the whole story. You have to add the other stuff: assists, steals, rebounding, fouls, blocks, etc. before you get to the whole story.

But that doesn't mean 17 turnovers in 2 games is ok, does it? Or maybe you think it is -- tell me, is it ok?

Kyle Lowry gets the line 35% more often than John Wall, and he shoots 83.7% to Wall's 78%. Is that some more of the "stuff" that "doesn't tell the whole story"??

Lowry shoots 16.7 times in 40 minutes, and those shots produce 17.7 points. Wall takes 2.8 more shots to produce .7 more points. More meaningless stuff?

tontoz was making a specific point. Wall's turnovers and his missed shots -- and his missed free throws too -- are on him, not on his supporting cast, which is what deneem was claiming.

A board like this is for fans to express their opinions. As a fan, as I stated, my opinion is swayed by my fan loyalty. Claiming that I was as unbiased as you are for a mere human like me would be impossible. But I watch enough and played enough ball to know every baller is flawed. My opinion that Wall is one of the top 5 point guards is shared by ESPN pre-season rankings as well (I think) but hey...its just an opinion. My question for you is this. Would the wiz be significantly better with lowery and the exact same roster... My opinion- No. Y'all gonna miss JW when he demands a trade and we go through another decade of lottery basketball.

[CobraCommander]

Sessions focus is scoring and getting to the line...like I said wall ts% is lower than other star guards because he doesn't get to the line as frequently...

Obviously Sessions is better than Wall too. The way Tontoz sounds Wall isn't even top 5 on Wiz.


Either way...ill take that 4 game winnings streak with Wall getting 24, 10 and 1 turn over. Is that good enough?

Oh yeah and the wiz supporting cast isn't that good-

I'm generally not a fan boy but all this hate making me feel like a John Wall Apologist. SO I'm gonna just say Wall is top 3!

And now the inevitable strawman arguments.

You claimed that Wall's poor TS and turnovers were partially caused by weak teammates. Sessions plays on the same team and doesn't have a problem with TS or turnovers, so obviously that argument doesn't hold up not that it ever made sense anyway.

Then you resort to strawman nonsense with the "Sessions is better than Wall" and "Wall isnt top 5 on the Wiz", things nobody actually said. I understand. When you can't make a coherent argument the strawman is a convenient fallback option.

If Wall played 82 games against Calderon he probably would be top 3.

I hate a strawman too... Like if Wall played against Calderon he would be top 3. Like the other point guards don't play against Calderon too. Either way I think we will agree to disagree.

[tontoz]

Obviously Sessions is better than Wall too. The way Tontoz sounds Wall isn't even top 5 on Wiz.


Either way...ill take that 4 game winnings streak with Wall getting 24, 10 and 1 turn over. Is that good enough?

Oh yeah and the wiz supporting cast isn't that good-

I'm generally not a fan boy but all this hate making me feel like a John Wall Apologist. SO I'm gonna just say Wall is top 3!

And now the inevitable strawman arguments.

You claimed that Wall's poor TS and turnovers were partially caused by weak teammates. Sessions plays on the same team and doesn't have a problem with TS or turnovers, so obviously that argument doesn't hold up not that it ever made sense anyway.

Then you resort to strawman nonsense with the "Sessions is better than Wall" and "Wall isnt top 5 on the Wiz", things nobody actually said. I understand. When you can't make a coherent argument the strawman is a convenient fallback option.

If Wall played 82 games against Calderon he probably would be top 3.

I hate a strawman too... Like if Wall played against Calderon he would be top 3. Like the other point guards don't play against Calderon too. Either way I think we will agree to disagree.

You should look up the definition of a strawman argument since you clearly don't know what it is. Mocking someones argument and making up a strawman are two different things.

You quoted the stats for one game, which was against Calderon, as if that is somehow representative of how Wall plays.
Why did you quote the stats for one game while ignoring the 68 games that preceded it? Funny how you have been downplaying stats for the past week but when Wall has a good game against a lame defender you are quick to post the stats. You clearly don't have enough sense to see the contradiction here but i am sure everyone else can see it.

If Wall averaged 24/10 with one turnover and good shooting then he would be top 3. Unfortunately he averages 4 turnovers per game on poor shooting. And it isn't because of his teammates or coaches, it is because of him.

[dckingsfan]

Nothing would make me happier than to see us sneak in the playoffs and matchup with the Raps just to see Wall bust Lowry's asz. No way are you going to convince me that he and some of the others you guys named are better. Don't tell me about what he shoots unless you are factoring coaching, injuries, and a All Star penetrating machine like Derozan starting next to him all year while Wall has Garrett "d-league" Temple beside him most of the year. Those numbers would change alot

Meeeee toooooo - that would be in the ECF!!!!

[deneem4]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=westbru01&y1=2015&p2=walljo01&y2=2016&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Let's lose our most efficient player...so wall can be more aggressive...we might miss the playoffs but next season he will be regarded as a top 3 point guard even with the horrible efficiency and turnover rate...

I wonder how is Westbrook top 3 with efficiency numbers like that without durant...
Points don't matter right? I mean that's what they say when I bring up cousins production...

Thunder didn't make the playoffs last year...so was Russell Westbrook bad???..is Russell Westbrook a top 3 point guard without durant?

[deneem4]

And before you bring up ts%....examine the raw %s...

[deneem4]

And lastly once again, less than 1 month ago....

https://youtu.be/yvzSMv2U2hM

[deneem4]

If John wall isn't a top 5 point guard which point guards has had more success in the last 2 seasons??
Curry?
Cp3?

Wall hasn't had another all star nor all nba talent, overall or defensively on his team...but he's had more success than the guards who has...
Or is leading your team to the playoffs and winning overrated?

We're speaking of this current season effort but considering every guard we have him ranked against has had a relative healthy team, how do you compare them?
That's why I included the Westbrook comparison up top by the way

[bondom34]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=westbru01&y1=2015&p2=walljo01&y2=2016&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Let's lose our most efficient player...so wall can be more aggressive...we might miss the playoffs but next season he will be regarded as a top 3 point guard even with the horrible efficiency and turnover rate...

I wonder how is Westbrook top 3 with efficiency numbers like that without durant...
Points don't matter right? I mean that's what they say when I bring up cousins production...

Thunder didn't make the playoffs last year...so was Russell Westbrook bad???..is Russell Westbrook a top 3 point guard without durant?

Westbrook missed 13 games, OKC was 1 game out of the playoffs, they were easily in with him. And they still had 45 wins.

[thricethefun]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=westbru01&y1=2015&p2=walljo01&y2=2016&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Let's lose our most efficient player...so wall can be more aggressive...we might miss the playoffs but next season he will be regarded as a top 3 point guard even with the horrible efficiency and turnover rate...

I wonder how is Westbrook top 3 with efficiency numbers like that without durant...
Points don't matter right? I mean that's what they say when I bring up cousins production...

Thunder didn't make the playoffs last year...so was Russell Westbrook bad???..is Russell Westbrook a top 3 point guard without durant?

Westbrook missed 13 games, OKC was 1 game out of the playoffs, they were easily in with him. And they still had 45 wins.

19 of those 45 wins were with Kevin Durant in the lineup last year. If he's out the whole year I doubt they get to 40 wins.

[bondom34]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=westbru01&y1=2015&p2=walljo01&y2=2016&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Let's lose our most efficient player...so wall can be more aggressive...we might miss the playoffs but next season he will be regarded as a top 3 point guard even with the horrible efficiency and turnover rate...

I wonder how is Westbrook top 3 with efficiency numbers like that without durant...
Points don't matter right? I mean that's what they say when I bring up cousins production...

Thunder didn't make the playoffs last year...so was Russell Westbrook bad???..is Russell Westbrook a top 3 point guard without durant?

Westbrook missed 13 games, OKC was 1 game out of the playoffs, they were easily in with him. And they still had 45 wins.

19 of those 45 wins were with Kevin Durant in the lineup last year. If he's out the whole year I doubt they get to 40 wins.

And they missed Ibaka, Adams, Roberson, and Collison a month. Add them in and they win a bunch more. It wasn't just KD, it wasRuss and the bench playing.

Edit: Here is game by game roster status, it was nuts:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2015_roster_status.html

Also, they were 22-18 with WB, no KD. So about 45 wins. 18-9 with Durant.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01/gamelog/2015/

[deneem4]

Westbrook missed 13 games, OKC was 1 game out of the playoffs, they were easily in with him. And they still had 45 wins.

19 of those 45 wins were with Kevin Durant in the lineup last year. If he's out the whole year I doubt they get to 40 wins.

And they missed Ibaka, Adams, Roberson, and Collison a month. Add them in and they win a bunch more. It wasn't just KD, it wasRuss and the bench playing.

Edit: Here is game by game roster status, it was nuts:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2015_roster_status.html

Are you giving injury excuses for Westbrook play?