MVP Rankings 1.0

[Greatness]

I'm one of the biggest LeBron fans and Kobe haters, but I gotta admit that Kobe would get MVP if the season ended today. He shouldn't be penalized for having lower numbers than LeBron, but LeBron shouldn't also be penalized for his team record not being great as of yet. I think everything will balance out and become more clear soon.

[jrich88]

There are a myriad of stats out there, there are cases for many depending on what you choose. I would say the increased efficiency of Kobe's teammates SHOULD factor in just as much as an assist or rebound. I think ball denial SHOULD be a stat but we don't register it. NBA hockey assists aren't counted, neither is there a stat for getting the ball to a teammate in the best postion for them to score. Successful boxouts aren't counted(unless you're playing NBA2k My Player, LOL), but it should just as much as boards.

The truth is that the NBA doesn't keep enough stats and should have expanded long ago. There is so much that happens which doesn't get counted or quantified. So YES, based on the point/rebounds/assist combo(and so-called "advanced" stats like PER which use them as a base), I guess you can say Lebron is ahead. But in reality, only 10-20% of what happens on the court is actually counted. This is why the Kobe vs Lebron argument gets so muddy. This is also why guys like Magic/Bird get underrated, and guys like Tmac get overrated.

Good post.

[LeBronade]

Cavs will likely finish ahead of LA, based on current form and the pending doom of LA's schedule!

[semi-sentient]

It couldn't just be that Gasol and Bynum got better primarily because of their own hard work just like Kobe did when he was Shaq's teammate, could it? How was throwing Bynum under the bus a couple of years ago a sign of Kobe's leadership?

You can spin that anyway you want...the fact is, they are both better players when Kobe is on the court.

where are the stats to back that up?

Gasol with Grizzlies: .509 FG%
Gasol with Lakers: .572 FG%

You can certainly attribute some of that to the system and the fact that the Lakers have some good passers, but you can't deny that having all the attention on Kobe has greatly opened up the floor for him to go to work. Nevermind all the easy dunks/putbacks he gets from Kobe penetrating in addition to them running a great pick-n-roll. Gasol was a pretty damn good player before he played with Kobe, but now he's even better.

[semi-sentient]

Here's an interesting look at how both Kobe and LeBron fare when put up against their peers (position), noting that I threw in Carmelo and Wade just for the hell of it:

Code: Select all

              Kobe   LeBron   Carmelo   Wade

Points        1      2        1         2
Rebounds      2      4        9         4
FG Shooting   4      2        5         15
FT Shooting   8      14       2         24
3P Shooting   35     15       12        37
Assists       7      1        7         1
Steals        2      6        9         8
Blocks        16     6        21        1
Turnovers     5      1        3         4

Both players have an equal number of #1, #2, and #4 rankings. They both have the same number of top 10 rankings. The biggest difference it seems is 3P shooting which will get closer as the season goes on. Note that the lower ranking for turnovers is better since that's not an area where you want to lead the league.

Anyway, food for thought.

[Original Baller]

I hope people here understand that your arguments for MVP mean nothing because the media is the ones who decide it. I don't get why people feel the need to convince others that their position is right.

I think Kobe MVP cause I think he's the best player and most important reason for his team winning. Thats just my standard for what I think an MVP is.

LeBron fans may feel that its the guy who puts up the best stats that determines who the best player is. I disagree but hey everyone has a right to their opinion. One thing we do know is that STATS rarely decide an MVP. The media really has their own prerogative when it comes to handing out MVPs. I disagreed many times with their methodology but it didn't change anything.

So LeBron fans just need to chill. Most astute basketball observers don't keep their noses in box scores and decide who deserves MVP based on that. Whatever you wanna believe about PER, win shares, or whatever new stat some nerd creates, the TRUTH is that most people in the NBA believe Kobe's the best.

You can say that the opinion is unfounded on what you consider facts, however I would disagree. So I think we should just leave it at that rather than acting like your methodology holds absolute truth while others on the other side are obviously wrong.

[Original Baller]

Cavs will likely finish ahead of LA, based on current form and the pending doom of LA's schedule!

I guess there's nothing wrong with wishful thinking but I had to at this post

LOL @ pending doom

obviously you aren't aware of the fact the Lakers had the best road record in the NBA last year

[LeBronade]

It will either go to the best player of the best team (unless that team is Boston) or it will go to Nash!

[JimMurray]

I hope people here understand that your arguments for MVP mean nothing because the media is the ones who decide it. I don't get why people feel the need to convince others that their position is right.

What else are we going to do at work to pretend were working?

[INKtastic]

I think it's interesting that people only count box score stats (or some calculation thereof) as "production" or "performance". At the same time these people have no problem accepting prime Shaq's offensive performance as being greater than his stats

What are you talking about. Shaq had some of the best statistical seasons in league history. He's #2 all time in career PER.

[THEGURU]

the problem with justifing an mvp soleythrough stats is the fact that stats dont always tell the whole truth. if we were going off of stats for mvp than dwayne wade was hands down the mvp last year. higher shooting percentage than lebron, more points, more assist, more steals and did just as much with a terrible team.

lebron is a huge reason why the cavs have and are having the success that they are achieving, but you gotta look at the system that lebron and kobe play in. lebron plays in an offense that is built to get him either points or an assist on almost every possesion. lebron brings the ball up the court, has a pick set for him, he drives and if they collapse he kicks out to a wide open shooter or he finishes if they dnt help out and he scored or gets fouls and then scores. so its kinda easy to see how he is able to put those numbers.

kobe actually plays in a real offense that he has to play his role in. kobe doesnt bring the ball up the court, kobe doesnt have picks set for him on every posession he doesnt even handle the ball on every posession. i have seen both kobe and wade go 5 and 6 posessions without even touching the ball. The ball is in lebrons hands literally every posession. kobe has to actually look and find the open man to get his assist, kobe has to actually create his shots to score. so with that you can see where kobe has to work harder for his numbers yet puts up similar stats.

and for the record im a wade guy, so this is an objective POV.

[LebronsCavs]

the problem with justifing an mvp soleythrough stats is the fact that stats dont always tell the whole truth. if we were going off of stats for mvp than dwayne wade was hands down the mvp last year. higher shooting percentage than lebron, more points, more assist, more steals and did just as much with a terrible team.

lebron is a huge reason why the cavs have and are having the success that they are achieving, but you gotta look at the system that lebron and kobe play in. lebron plays in an offense that is built to get him either points or an assist on almost every possesion. lebron brings the ball up the court, has a pick set for him, he drives and if they collapse he kicks out to a wide open shooter or he finishes if they dnt help out and he scored or gets fouls and then scores. so its kinda easy to see how he is able to put those numbers.

kobe actually plays in a real offense that he has to play his role in. kobe doesnt bring the ball up the court, kobe doesnt have picks set for him on every posession he doesnt even handle the ball on every posession. i have seen both kobe and wade go 5 and 6 posessions without even touching the ball. The ball is in lebrons hands literally every posession. kobe has to actually look and find the open man to get his assist, kobe has to actually create his shots to score. so with that you can see where kobe has to work harder for his numbers yet puts up similar stats.

and for the record im a wade guy, so this is an objective POV.

Actually Lebron had better stats, you cant rely on raw stats too much. Advanced stats showed Lebron had the better season.

[LebronsCavs]

[quote="Original Baller"]I hope people here understand that your arguments for MVP mean nothing because the media is the ones who decide it. I don't get why people feel the need to convince others that their position is right.

I think Kobe MVP cause I think he's the best player and most important reason for his team winning. Thats just my standard for what I think an MVP is.

LeBron fans may feel that its the guy who puts up the best stats that determines who the best player is. I disagree but hey everyone has a right to their opinion. One thing we do know is that STATS rarely decide an MVP. The media really has their own prerogative when it comes to handing out MVPs. I disagreed many times with their methodology but it didn't change anything.

So LeBron fans just need to chill. Most astute basketball observers don't keep their noses in box scores and decide who deserves MVP based on that. Whatever you wanna believe about PER, win shares, or whatever new stat some nerd creates, the TRUTH is that most people in the NBA believe Kobe's the best.

You can say that the opinion is unfounded on what you consider facts, however I would disagree. So I think we should just leave it at that rather than acting like your methodology holds absolute truth while others on the other side are obviously wrong.[/quote]

lol worse thing i've seen written on here. Then what is the point of realgm, we know our debates dont influence the media.

[JimMurray]

Actually Lebron had better stats, you cant rely on raw stats too much. Advanced stats showed Lebron had the better season.

F**** advanced stats. The problem with advanced stats is people don't know how to interpret them. Furthermore they detract too much from what basketball is. This is not baseball.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Actually Lebron had better stats, you cant rely on raw stats too much. Advanced stats showed Lebron had the better season.

"Advanced stats" are based on raw stats though, so they fall victim to the same issues. If NBA stats were expanded to include the intangibles of the game, then they would be much more accurate.

[INKtastic]

LeBron vs Kobe

Shooting:
FGA: 19.8 vs 22.2
PPG: 28.9 vs 28.9
FG%: .507 vs .485
3PFG%: .368 vs .295
FT%: .782 vs .846
eFG%: .549 vs .507
TS%: .606 vs .566

It takes Kobe 2.4 more shots to score the same number of points.

Rebounding: 6.8 vs 5.2
Rebound rate: 10.8% vs 7.9%

Assists: 8.0 vs 4.1
Turnovers: 3.7 vs 3.1
Assist/TO Ratio: 2.1 vs 1.3

Advanced Stats:

PER: 30.32 vs 25.11
Win Share: 5.9 vs 4.1
Offensive Rating: 119 vs 112
Defensive Rating: 102 vs 99
Estimated Wins Added: 9.7 vs 6.5

So PPG is a tie and Kobe has the advantage in foul shooting (but not TS%), turnovers (but not assist/to ratio), defensive rating. LeBron has the advantage in everything else. for most things the gaps are quit substantial. nearly 2x the assists, 30% more rebounds, 20% better PER, 40% better win share, 60% better assist/turnover ratio.

Using FGA + FTA*0.44 + Assists + Turnovers to count possessions, LeBron ends 35.5 possessions/game while Kobe ends 32.7 possessions. LeBron generates at least 44.9 points (I didn't try to estimate 3 point shots) while Kobe genets 37.1 points. That works out to about 1.3 points per possession ended vs 1.1 points per possession ended.

It's been suggested that LeBron's better stats are simply a result of being in a system that requires him to do more. I have two questions about that.

1 - isn't being relied on to do more the same thing as being more valuable?
2 - doesn't having to do more make it more difficult to be efficient?

Doesn't being required to do more (as kobe fans say LeBron has to in the cavs system) while also producing at a more efficient rate mean you are by definition more valuable?

[INKtastic]

Hollinger today

Sean (La La Land): You really think Lebron is the best player in the world?

John Hollinger (3:54 PM) Absolutely. This drives the Kobe fan Army crazy, but the evidence is overwhelming.

[LeBronade]

Shaq/LeBron/Jordan is the polar opposite to Kobe in efficiency!

[Benedict_Boozer]

Doesn't being required to do more (as kobe fans say LeBron has to in the cavs system) while also producing at a more efficient rate mean you are by definition more valuable?

Interesting point. Lebron puts up the numbers and has a high usage rate, but he is extremely efficient in doing so and his production reflects the load he has to carry from night to night (arguably the largest in the league in terms of keeping CLE at/near "contender" status).

I agree the fact he has to carry such a large burden and is historically efficient in doing so (on a successful team) is in itself MVP worthy.

[semi-sentient]

I hope people here understand that your arguments for MVP mean nothing because the media is the ones who decide it. I don't get why people feel the need to convince others that their position is right.

What else are we going to do at work to pretend were working?

This.