Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[tsherkin]

But, I think I mostly agree with your general point. Scottie finishes mostly with his physicality which works best when he has a more significant size advantage. When he has to score over a Mobley type or even Siakam, it's more difficult for him finishing over that length when he can't overpower them as easily.

Scottie needs to learn the value of horizontal separation and how to finish his shots. If he can do that, then he'll be just fine against 3s, 4s, against basically anyone.

RJ was too much dead weight to carry

Basically no one shot well last night. Scottie was 12/26.

Poeltl was 4/11. Mitchell was 1/7. Barrett was 7/19. Agbaji was 0/4. Shead was 3/9.

Now, Boucher was 4/9, Fernando was 4/7, Battle was 4/9 and Mogbo was 2/3. That was something. But the team as a whole shot 39%, and Scottie was bringing that up some even on a bleh night.

What I did enjoy about Scottie was that he was hammering it in the paint in the second half. He cooled off significantly after the second quarter, but he was like 4/10 in the paint in the second half. 10 shots in the key is a pretty big deal, even against a squad like Detroit. He was aggressive, he was finding his way to the right places, he just couldn't finish late. And he had no support, really, so we couldn't weather those misses.

I was half joking but, it's not just the shooting, he provided nothing else on the court. His defence was bad, he wasn't pulling in boards, not setting people up, turning the ball over, etc. As bad as others were last night, at least Jak still provides defence and rebounding, expectations should be higher for him than bench players, especially against the pistons.

Yeah, tbf, I was broadening out from your point, not responding directly I guess. Just wanted to point out how the rest of the team fared. That put a huge amount of pressure on Scottie.

[YogurtProducer]

This poor guy has no spacing still in 2024.. Horrible roster construction.. He is playing in hard mode on our current team... Guess it's good for tanking

IQ, Dick, JaKobe, and Kelly were not playing.

And even Brown is an upgrade over guys like Shead

Yeah we are essentially missing like

IQ - 7 3's a game @ 39.4% as a Raptor
Dick - 7 3's a game @ 35.8% as a Raptor (2024 volume + career %'s)
Walter - IDK yet - shot 34.1% on 6 a game in college
Brown - 33% or so guy. Not great but also huge upgrade over Shead/Mitchell/Mogbo/Boucher
Kelly 2-3 3's a game @ 36.9%

Like we are missing damn near 20 3's a game missing from our rotation and have replaced them with Mitchell, Shead, Mogbo, Boucher, and Fernando. Conceivably eventually we can roll

IQ/Mitchell
Dick/RJ
Agbaji/Brown
Barnes/Battle
Poeltl/Olynyk

and suddenly that is a lot of guys who can shoot around Barnes and we will finally see him in a 4 or 5 out offence.

[tsherkin]

Yeah we are essentially missing like

IQ - 7 3's a game @ 39.4% as a Raptor
Dick - 7 3's a game @ 35.8% as a Raptor (2024 volume + career %'s)
Walter - IDK yet - shot 34.1% on 6 a game in college
Brown - 33% or so guy. Not great but also huge upgrade over Shead/Mitchell/Mogbo/Boucher
Kelly 2-3 3's a game @ 36.9%

This is a huge deal, no doubt.

And when we get even half of those guys on the court regularly, it should in theory give us the ability to throttle back on RJ while also opening up the inside for him and for Scottie. Having the spacing those guys provide would be an immense boon to both of them, and to the team overall.

[nikster]

IQ, Dick, JaKobe, and Kelly were not playing.

And even Brown is an upgrade over guys like Shead

Yeah we are essentially missing like

IQ - 7 3's a game @ 39.4% as a Raptor
Dick - 7 3's a game @ 35.8% as a Raptor (2024 volume + career %'s)
Walter - IDK yet - shot 34.1% on 6 a game in college
Brown - 33% or so guy. Not great but also huge upgrade over Shead/Mitchell/Mogbo/Boucher
Kelly 2-3 3's a game @ 36.9%

Like we are missing damn near 20 3's a game missing from our rotation and have replaced them with Mitchell, Shead, Mogbo, Boucher, and Fernando. Conceivably eventually we can roll

IQ/Mitchell
Dick/RJ
Agbaji/Brown
Barnes/Battle
Poeltl/Olynyk

and suddenly that is a lot of guys who can shoot around Barnes and we will finally see him in a 4 or 5 out offence.

Yeah I'm excited to see them healthy and see Barnes operate with more space. Will be nice to have Kelly back and have a true big that can open up the floor for stretches. Gives us more flexibility in how we can put shooting around Scottie

[Scase]

But, I think I mostly agree with your general point. Scottie finishes mostly with his physicality which works best when he has a more significant size advantage. When he has to score over a Mobley type or even Siakam, it's more difficult for him finishing over that length when he can't overpower them as easily.

Scottie needs to learn the value of horizontal separation and how to finish his shots. If he can do that, then he'll be just fine against 3s, 4s, against basically anyone.

Basically no one shot well last night. Scottie was 12/26.

Poeltl was 4/11. Mitchell was 1/7. Barrett was 7/19. Agbaji was 0/4. Shead was 3/9.

Now, Boucher was 4/9, Fernando was 4/7, Battle was 4/9 and Mogbo was 2/3. That was something. But the team as a whole shot 39%, and Scottie was bringing that up some even on a bleh night.

What I did enjoy about Scottie was that he was hammering it in the paint in the second half. He cooled off significantly after the second quarter, but he was like 4/10 in the paint in the second half. 10 shots in the key is a pretty big deal, even against a squad like Detroit. He was aggressive, he was finding his way to the right places, he just couldn't finish late. And he had no support, really, so we couldn't weather those misses.

I was half joking but, it's not just the shooting, he provided nothing else on the court. His defence was bad, he wasn't pulling in boards, not setting people up, turning the ball over, etc. As bad as others were last night, at least Jak still provides defence and rebounding, expectations should be higher for him than bench players, especially against the pistons.

Yeah, tbf, I was broadening out from your point, not responding directly I guess. Just wanted to point out how the rest of the team fared. That put a huge amount of pressure on Scottie.

Those are the types of games that give me hopes for Scottie being an integral part of a winning teams, he's virtually always productive, irrespective of his scoring or efficiency. I mentioned it elsewhere but, Scottie IMO is a player that elevates teams with good players, but teams with bad to mediocre players drag him down.

It seems like a cop out and to put blame elsewhere, but his assist numbers and what we talked about a couple posts back is what I mean. He should have had a triple double, but ignoring him personal accolades, getting a TD shows that he's getting better production out of his teammates. It drives me nuts to watch him night in and out, miss out on a couple assists because of absolute bunnies being missed, or guys with brick hands dropping crisp passes.

I don't think it's quite "He can't win with these cats" levels, but it's not that far off from the truth. The compete level of our team is high, the talent level is not. Scottie has plenty of holes in his game that he needs to get better at, but I would say overall the team tends to let him down, way more than he lets the team down.

[tsherkin]

Those are the types of games that give me hopes for Scottie being an integral part of a winning teams, he's virtually always productive, irrespective of his scoring or efficiency. I mentioned it elsewhere but, Scottie IMO is a player that elevates teams with good players, but teams with bad to mediocre players drag him down.

That's fair, yeah. This game is a good example of us asking a little too much of him as a scorer, but also of him showcasing the breadth of his game.

I don't think it's quite "He can't win with these cats" levels, but it's not that far off from the truth. The compete level of our team is high, the talent level is not. Scottie has plenty of holes in his game that he needs to get better at, but I would say overall the team tends to let him down, way more than he lets the team down.

I mean, we're injured as hell right now, right? At a minimum, we didn't have Quick or Gradey, and we didn't have Olynyk. We're missing a whole pile of shooting, Olynyk's a pretty good passer, Quick has some ability to apply north-south pressure. Gradey's a movement shooter plus, like we're missing so many parts which could elevate us.

With Scottie (and by extension, with RJ as well), we're not quite seeing what they'd look like in the optimal scenario with even our actual roster. Yogurt said something about this just a minute ago and it's quite on-point.

[PushDaRock]

IQ, Dick, JaKobe, and Kelly were not playing.

And even Brown is an upgrade over guys like Shead

Yeah we are essentially missing like

IQ - 7 3's a game @ 39.4% as a Raptor
Dick - 7 3's a game @ 35.8% as a Raptor (2024 volume + career %'s)
Walter - IDK yet - shot 34.1% on 6 a game in college
Brown - 33% or so guy. Not great but also huge upgrade over Shead/Mitchell/Mogbo/Boucher
Kelly 2-3 3's a game @ 36.9%

Like we are missing damn near 20 3's a game missing from our rotation and have replaced them with Mitchell, Shead, Mogbo, Boucher, and Fernando. Conceivably eventually we can roll

IQ/Mitchell
Dick/RJ
Agbaji/Brown
Barnes/Battle
Poeltl/Olynyk

and suddenly that is a lot of guys who can shoot around Barnes and we will finally see him in a 4 or 5 out offence.

It's just difficult to evaluate anyone right now given how disadvantaged we are with who is available. Someone like Ochai is shooting a good percentage but he's not a volume guy and is limited in the type of 3's he can make. Right now, Battle is our only volume guy but obviously he's an undrafted rookie and isn't playing a ton of minutes either. But, the spacing has also looked a bit better when he's out there in his limited minutes which probably isn't an accident either.

[AbC?]

All this talk of poor spacing around Scottie when he himself is a major contributor to the poor spacing. Newsflash, every single player of any archetype benefits from playing with floor spacers. If he needs 4 shooters to be successful around him I'd rather just go all the way and have 5 shooters out there instead.

Scottie does a lot of good, useful things on the basketball court but I'm over the excuses for his limitations. Just accept them and hope he improves the non-physical ones. He's not a franchise guy, not a guy to build your team around, not your 1st or 2nd best player on a contender, not a primary scoring OR offensive option (there's no difference btw).

[Scase]

Those are the types of games that give me hopes for Scottie being an integral part of a winning teams, he's virtually always productive, irrespective of his scoring or efficiency. I mentioned it elsewhere but, Scottie IMO is a player that elevates teams with good players, but teams with bad to mediocre players drag him down.

That's fair, yeah. This game is a good example of us asking a little too much of him as a scorer, but also of him showcasing the breadth of his game.

I don't think it's quite "He can't win with these cats" levels, but it's not that far off from the truth. The compete level of our team is high, the talent level is not. Scottie has plenty of holes in his game that he needs to get better at, but I would say overall the team tends to let him down, way more than he lets the team down.

I mean, we're injured as hell right now, right? At a minimum, we didn't have Quick or Gradey, and we didn't have Olynyk. We're missing a whole pile of shooting, Olynyk's a pretty good passer, Quick has some ability to apply north-south pressure. Gradey's a movement shooter plus, like we're missing so many parts which could elevate us.

With Scottie (and by extension, with RJ as well), we're not quite seeing what they'd look like in the optimal scenario with even our actual roster. Yogurt said something about this just a minute ago and it's quite on-point.

I think the disconnect for me, is that I really don't think the injuries are as impactful as people think they are. Like yeah, losing 3pt shooting is going to hurt us, but it's not like we're missing Curry out there. IQ is on average, at best is going to add 2-2.5 3PM a game, Gradey as high as I am on him, is showing the struggles of transitioning to an actual offensive threat, and he's a second year player, that shouldn't be a big factor. Olynyk aside from a few early years in his career gives up more points to the opponent, than his teams score, so whatever passing he might provide is outweighed by his poor defence, BB is not going to get magically better after his apparent injury is healed, cause his advanced stats in IND are practically identical to this mythical "good Bruce" from when he was in DEN.

I'm not going to say that we aren't likely a better team when fully healthy, but so is every single team in the league. The difference is, the guys who are injured right now, that could have an actual impact on this teams ceiling, is limited to just IQ. None of the rest of these guys are needle movers, Gradey I think will be some day, but again, heaping that kind of expectation on a 2nd year player is kind of the problem in itself.

It also only speaks to one side of the ball. IQ/Olynyk/Gradey are not good defensive players, and BB is average, so it stands to reason that whatever potential offensive uplift we may gain from these players being back, is likely wildly outweighed by the negative defensive change.

The more IQ, the less Mitchell/Shead, the more Olynyk, the less Mogbo, and so on. But if we are talking strictly about offence, then yeah we'd probably be better on that side of the ball with these guys back. I still think we keep losing though, these players coming back aren't net additions, minutes/FGAs/possessions and so on, have to come from someone else, and I don't think the guys replacing them (outside of IQ) are that much worse than the guys that are out.

[tsherkin]

I think the disconnect for me, is that I really don't think the injuries are as impactful as people think they are. Like yeah, losing 3pt shooting is going to hurt us, but it's not like we're missing Curry out there. IQ is on average, at best is going to add 2-2.5 3PM a game, Gradey as high as I am on him, is showing the struggles of transitioning to an actual offensive threat, and he's a second year player, that shouldn't be a big factor. Olynyk aside from a few early years in his career gives up more points to the opponent, than his teams score, so whatever passing he might provide is outweighed by his poor defence, BB is not going to get magically better after his apparent injury is healed, cause his advanced stats in IND are practically identical to this mythical "good Bruce" from when he was in DEN.

It's not just the volume, though. It's the effect the threat of such shooting has, especially when a bunch of it is on the court at the time. It's the movement created by Gradey running around off-ball. The options created by Quick and Barnes dominating the initial phases of a possession and letting RJ attack a shifted defense with passing support.

Olynyk is a big with good passing and a shot. That's another important wrinkle.

[Vampirate]

All this talk of poor spacing around Scottie when he himself is a major contributor to the poor spacing. Newsflash, every single player of any archetype benefits from playing with floor spacers. If he needs 4 shooters to be successful around him I'd rather just go all the way and have 5 shooters out there instead.

Scottie does a lot of good, useful things on the basketball court but I'm over the excuses for his limitations. Just accept them and hope he improves the non-physical ones. He's not a franchise guy, not a guy to build your team around, not your 1st or 2nd best player on a contender, not a primary scoring OR offensive option (there's no difference btw).

I legitimately think you're writing him off early and I think your bias against him is showing.

Including the misses he had, I was actually impressed with the handle he displayed last night.

I think both his shooting and handle improved, just not to All Star levels yet.

[Scase]

I think the disconnect for me, is that I really don't think the injuries are as impactful as people think they are. Like yeah, losing 3pt shooting is going to hurt us, but it's not like we're missing Curry out there. IQ is on average, at best is going to add 2-2.5 3PM a game, Gradey as high as I am on him, is showing the struggles of transitioning to an actual offensive threat, and he's a second year player, that shouldn't be a big factor. Olynyk aside from a few early years in his career gives up more points to the opponent, than his teams score, so whatever passing he might provide is outweighed by his poor defence, BB is not going to get magically better after his apparent injury is healed, cause his advanced stats in IND are practically identical to this mythical "good Bruce" from when he was in DEN.

It's not just the volume, though. It's the effect the threat of such shooting has, especially when a bunch of it is on the court at the time. It's the movement created by Gradey running around off-ball. The options created by Quick and Barnes dominating the initial phases of a possession and letting RJ attack a shifted defense with passing support.

Olynyk is a big with good passing and a shot. That's another important wrinkle.

I dont doubt the impact, I doubt the level of said impact. And like I mentioned, if we factor in the defensive side of the ball, that absolutely gets worse, like indisputably so. And I don't think it's wild to say that it likely gets worse than the offence gets better. Maybe we eke out another win or 2 in those close games, but who is to say those games even stay close with those much worse defenders on the court?

I would rather have a fully healthy team so we can see how all the moving parts fit together, but that's not the reality of the situation so the best we can do is evaluate based on what is actually happening. And I think the vast majority of shortcomings the team has, don't disappear with a healthy roster. But again, if we're only talking offence, yeah that likely gets better overall.

[tsherkin]

I dont doubt the impact, I doubt the level of said impact. And like I mentioned, if we factor in the defensive side of the ball, that absolutely gets worse, like indisputably so. And I don't think it's wild to say that it likely gets worse than the offence gets better. Maybe we eke out another win or 2 in those close games, but who is to say those games even stay close with those much worse defenders on the court?

Oh, I'm unsure of the magnitude of said impact. I'm only sure that it brings us closer to the environment in which someone like RJ was working last year, and opens some doors for Scottie on O. I want to see what it looks like. And we still have defense to worry about.

[Vampirate]

It feels like there's 2 types of people in this thread.

There's the type that tried to make excuses for him on everything, and then there's the type that has just made up their mind on the guy regardless and think of him as a 4th option.

The matter of the fact is on a back to back with all his starters **** the bed and with no spacing, he put up 31/14/7/1/1. That's exactly what you want to see.

His performance against the Pistons doesn't take away his poor performance against the Cavs. And vice versa.

It feels like people who are too pro Barnes won't criticize him, and people who are anti Barnes won't give him actual credit when it's due.

[Scase]

I dont doubt the impact, I doubt the level of said impact. And like I mentioned, if we factor in the defensive side of the ball, that absolutely gets worse, like indisputably so. And I don't think it's wild to say that it likely gets worse than the offence gets better. Maybe we eke out another win or 2 in those close games, but who is to say those games even stay close with those much worse defenders on the court?

Oh, I'm unsure of the magnitude of said impact. I'm only sure that it brings us closer to the environment in which someone like RJ was working last year, and opens some doors for Scottie on O. I want to see what it looks like. And we still have defense to worry about.

Fair enough, hopefully we can get IQ back soon to see how they play together for an extended period of time, so long as it doesn't hurt the ping pong balls I'm all aboard

[tsherkin]

Fair enough, hopefully we can get IQ back soon to see how they play together for an extended period of time, so long as it doesn't hurt the ping pong balls I'm all aboard

I'd love to see a situation where I can really get onboard with Scottie and RJ. I am frequently the voice of skepticism/pessimism and all that, but I'd love to be able to just watch them crushing it.

[Scase]

Fair enough, hopefully we can get IQ back soon to see how they play together for an extended period of time, so long as it doesn't hurt the ping pong balls I'm all aboard

I'd love to see a situation where I can really get onboard with Scottie and RJ. I am frequently the voice of skepticism/pessimism and all that, but I'd love to be able to just watch them crushing it.

I would love to be wrong about the pairing as well, cause then that means we have a great foundation and a fun team to watch. But so far, that hasn't been the case. Fingers crossed the two of them can stay healthy the rest of the year and we can get a somewhat relevant sample size.

[tsherkin]

Fair enough, hopefully we can get IQ back soon to see how they play together for an extended period of time, so long as it doesn't hurt the ping pong balls I'm all aboard

I'd love to see a situation where I can really get onboard with Scottie and RJ. I am frequently the voice of skepticism/pessimism and all that, but I'd love to be able to just watch them crushing it.

I would love to be wrong about the pairing as well, cause then that means we have a great foundation and a fun team to watch. But so far, that hasn't been the case. Fingers crossed the two of them can stay healthy the rest of the year and we can get a somewhat relevant sample size.

I'm happy to see how this season goes, at least. I want to see what RJ looks like with more spacing and offensive talent. He wouldn't have to shoot so much with a lot fo those guys back, and Scottie's passing looks better when he has real finishers around him.

[Vampirate]

I'd love to see a situation where I can really get onboard with Scottie and RJ. I am frequently the voice of skepticism/pessimism and all that, but I'd love to be able to just watch them crushing it.

I would love to be wrong about the pairing as well, cause then that means we have a great foundation and a fun team to watch. But so far, that hasn't been the case. Fingers crossed the two of them can stay healthy the rest of the year and we can get a somewhat relevant sample size.

I'm happy to see how this season goes, at least. I want to see what RJ looks like with more spacing and offensive talent. He wouldn't have to shoot so much with a lot fo those guys back, and Scottie's passing looks better when he has real finishers around him.

Sometimes things need to get dire in order for a player to raise their game up.

A perfect example of this is Franz when Paolo went down.

[tsherkin]

Sometimes things need to get dire in order for a player to raise their game up.

A perfect example of this is Franz when Paolo went down.

That clearly isn't what's happening here. He's had half a decade and more to sort of figure it out in adverse conditions and he has not done. He is a weak FT shooter for a guard. He isn't consistent from 3, though he also doesn't do a lot of catch-and-shoot, and he has been pretty reasonable from the corners when he's taken those shots this season so far. He has no on-ball shooting skill outside of the RA and below the arc. Like, none. So he has huge leaps and bounds to go on that. He DOES cut well, and he does also bull his way into the paint quite well. He doesn't finish well when he gets there, but he gets there, and that's not a trivial thing.

At this point, though, it's clearly time to start arranging more optimal conditions and responsibilities for RJ instead of really hoping he figures it all out just cuz, you know?