Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 5

[Rapsfan07]

Wroten's got a crazy high ceiling. I'd move Ed or Bayless but I'm hoping a Calderon/Barbosa deal will take care of that.

When's the deadline?

[Dr Positivity]

I'm becoming more and more unsold on Drummond's talent level. With PJIII at least I see a guy with a lot of skill and fluidity and obvious talent. I wonder if Drummond is just that natural of a basketball player. It seems like fluidity is something somewhat underrated. Players who look like they're playing on water in the NBA always make it. Lawson, Monroe, Harden, etc. Lamb DEFINITELY feels like one of those players. PJIII, as much of a pussy as he is, is real smooth and natural on the court. Almost like he's sinking in the background of a game. Seems like everyone is starting to agree Drummond's going to be a McGee Deandre type in the NBA. Maybe in the 2nd half of his career he gets smarter and becomes Tyson Chandler. I feel like taking the guy who doesn't feel like a basketball player over the guy who makes you yell "that guy's a basketball player!" is something that ends badly like, 95-99% of the time. It's a DANGER DANGER!!! I'm all about drafting the most talented players but maybe Drummond's is just overrated. Much more to talent than size and explosiveness

IMO

1. A Davis
2. Leonard - yeah yeah yeah I know this place doesn't like the Captain America machine Hansbrough/Zeller. Still see a young LMA
3. Lamb - Just a STUD. One of those guys I have almost no doubt about.

Then more murky after that. I think I like PJIII and Moultrie more than Drummond. Jones III looks like Chris Bosh 2 to me. Same physical talent, really skilled, giant pussy, still a great guy and solid teammate. I see him being the Gay/Monroe pick as the "heartless" guy that's a massive steal like out of the top 7. Talent is talent. Moultrie is a reach but he really looks like he has the size, athleticism and skill that makes all-stars. He's like the happy medium between Sullinger and Jones III. Has the physical ability Sullinger doesn't, has the 10 reb+/game numbers and motor Jones doesn't and like them both is really skilled. He just screams all-star 2nd banana to me. He would be an amazing fit for Kyrie in Cleveland in the D West/Boozer/Roy era Aldridge role if they're ballsy enough to draft PF again

[fredericklove]

RealSkipBayless Skip Bayless
Something is wrong when a player as talented as Harrison Barnes lets his team get outscored 13-2 in final 2:10 at home by arch rival.
Il y a 32 minutes

I don't often agree with Skip, but I do on this one. Barnes is talented, and I would be happy to get him. But he doesnt have that ''it'' factor.

If there is a person on earth that you should not agree with, then its Skip, the guy talks some stupid stuff. And what the hell is he saying about Barnes letting hi steam get outscored, its not entirely his fault, its his team's effort, so wtf is Skip saying? And I think Barnes has the "it" factor, better than the person that you ranked above him on your sig list.

[Kabookalu]

Nah, Tony Wroten has been ballin' lately. From the games I've seen, like 2 or 3 games, he's actually not that bad at finding and setting up his teammates. I find that, he's more of a risk-taker with his passing going for the "ooh's and ahh's" instead of making simple passes. His court-vision is stellar, though. He'll routinely find his bigs around the basket darting laser beam passes from the wing, but sometimes, it gets picked off because he's trying to squeeze the pass inside through congested traffic in the lane. Still, he's good at the draw-and-kick when he sees an open man on the perimeter, dump off passes when penetrating the defense (bread-and-butter) or stepping into a crossover for the shovel pass. If he learns to pace himself and slow down, the turnovers should cut down. But it's kind of hard to gauge how well Wroten runs an offense because of the talent that's on the roster and lack of a big to run a two-man game.

Being able to find people open and setting up an offense are different though. Like I've cited I saw Roko Ukic make some truly impressive passes but he had absolutely no point guard abilities at all that at times we were forced to play Anthony Parker at point. I see the same thing with Wroten. Say that this problem is fixable, which I don't think it is, that's another project for us to deal with that may not even pan out.

[WhatsaTDot]

One guy I dont want and that I dont think would be a good fit anyways is Thomas Robinson. Even though he recorded a double double v Baylor, I didn't see any of the athleticism he's reputed for. He looked more robotic than he did fluid. Sure he's built like a tank but that wont mean as much in the NBA.

[sunny]

Is Tony Wroten still going by his high school highlights? The guy is a terrible point guard and not much better as a shooting guard. He makes flashy passes from time to time, but so did Roko Ukic and he was clueless on how to run an offense. Ed Davis and Jerryd Bayless for Tony Wroten would be one of the worst trades in history.

Nah, Tony Wroten has been ballin' lately. From the games I've seen, like 2 or 3 games, he's actually not that bad at finding and setting up his teammates. I find that, he's more of a risk-taker with his passing going for the "ooh's and ahh's" instead of making simple passes. His court-vision is stellar, though. He'll routinely find his bigs around the basket darting laser beam passes from the wing, but sometimes, it gets picked off because he's trying to squeeze the pass inside through congested traffic in the lane. Still, he's good at the draw-and-kick when he sees an open man on the perimeter, dump off passes when penetrating the defense (bread-and-butter) or stepping into a crossover for the shovel pass. If he learns to pace himself and slow down, the turnovers should cut down. But it's kind of hard to gauge how well Wroten runs an offense because of the talent that's on the roster and lack of a big to run a two-man game.

Wroten isn't even considered lotto bound by most teams either way, so giving up two former lotto picks is way too much when they still got potential. I mean, there's still a nice crop of PGs coming out next year like Josiah Turner, Ryan Harrow, and Myck Kabongo if he decides not to declare that the Raptors can wait for.

The flaws in Wroten's game all look like teachable or disciplinary flaws to me. And attitude, which is always a bit of an unknown. But I'd like to see what a demanding coach like Casey could do with him.

His natural abilities are tremendous and I see his ceiling being really high, a bigger Rondo maybe. But his floor is also low as hell. That's exactly the sort of risky player that would be perfect to get a second pick for, 17-25 or something like that. But not a lottery pick, and not worth giving up both Bayless and Davis for.

you should have watched washington's game last night. Him and his entire team just didn't care at all or put any effort into it. Attitude problems + lack of pg skills are two huge red flags which im not sure could be overcome.

[Kevin Willis]

No to Wroten. He needs to stay for a couple of years, he's no better a prospect than Bay right now. I've only watched three games from him but this is my impression of him.

Plus

- size, handles, penetration skills, 'swagger', decent shot

Negatives

- ball massive black hole, bad body language, bad FT shooter, bad 3pt Shooter, bad vision, poor Bball IQ

A US property flipper's version of Evans. And I doubt he would ever be even close - Evans was never this selfish and that says a lot. Not much to see here.

On the flip side, Ross would be much better with a passing PG. He's had Isiah Thomas and now Wroten. He might be better than advertised.

[niQ]

Just noticed nbadraft.net's new update.

If we can't have Jeremy Lin, let's take Jeremy Lamb!

lol j/k.

The more the season goes on the more I like Lamb BECAUSE we need a legit 2nd scoring threat. Of course at the beginning of the season I was hoping that would be my boy Quincy but imo he's just not looking like the player he was in highschool...if he were I would take him by a landslide (outside of the 2 ADs).

But I like Lamb the most because not only can he shoot the lights out like Barnes but he has better handles. He also has freakish length for his position. He plays some pretty good D as he averages close to a block per game and 1.5spg. Barnes is right there with him for me (at this point)...I don't see superstar in him but he can score and play Deng like defence. He's likened to Deng a lot for good reason but I think he can be a better scorer then Luol was/is which is a heck of a player. My only issue is I think we need to get another pick to fill out either SG or SF (obviously depending on if we pick Lamb or Barnes).

I just can't get excited about a guy like MKG as much as I try to....unless we already drafted a good scorer first. To me he's an incredible glue guy who is Gerald Wallace with better leadership which is again a great player but the bottomline is every team needs at least two guys they can count on to score and I think while his D is more disruptive overall for teams it's not miles above the previous two names. Not to mention Kidd is NOT that big for his position; listed as 6'7 but looks 6'6 at best to me...imho he actually looks physically better suited at SG like Tony Allen but I guess we'll see.

I agree with a lot you said. Barnes and MKG are really close right now but I'd give a SLIGHT edge to Barnes cause he's more of a "scorer" which our team needs. I love what MKG brings to the table, but yea, I just can't get excited about it. And yea, he's essentially DeRozan's height. I wouldn't be mad if we got Lamb. Dude can straight out ball. I don't know why he's not higher on some draft sites...

[sunny]

No to Wroten. He needs to stay for a couple of years, he's no better a prospect than Bay right now. I've only watched three games from him but this is my impression of him.

Plus

- size, handles, penetration skills, 'swagger', decent shot

Negatives

- ball massive black hole, bad body language, bad FT shooter, bad 3pt Shooter, bad vision, poor Bball IQ

A US property flipper's version of Evans. And I doubt he would ever be even close - Evans was never this selfish and that says a lot. Not much to see here.

On the flip side, Ross would be much better with a passing PG. He's had Isiah Thomas and now Wroten. He might be better than advertised.

I agree with what you wrote. However Isaiah Thomas, Abdul Gaddy and to a lesser extent Wroten are much better than the majority of of college players get in terms of a pg.

[Kevin Willis]

Sunny - that's true. They're all good guards but I think we're getting carried away with how good Wroten can potentially be. He's not much of an upgrade to what we have currently. I also think Ross is underated too. He can easily have a Mo Pete type of career.

[Greg Stink]

Yeah, if you want to play like Tyreke then you'd better be good, even Tyreke is a negative impact player when he's not right. Wroten could be in the red many nights. The lack of guards in the draft doesn't make him a better player.

Here's a decent piece on Wroten from a week ago, NSIP:

http://theclassical.org/articles/tony-wroten-stays-home

After 21 games, Wroten’s stat line is swollen: 17.1 points, 4.6 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 2.0 steals, 3.0 personal fouls, 4.0 turnovers. But he has been all over the place. One massive end-game gaffe. One game-saving play. When a fed-up Romar told the team he was shortening its leash early in the season against Houston Baptist, he used Wroten to prove the point. Following a second no-look, negative-result pass, Wroten—whose court vision was one of his biggest selling points in high school—was yanked from the game. When he returned, he threw an accurate no-look. He penetrated and dropped a two-handed bounce pass to Gaddy, appearing to fight ingrained fibers in doing so. He dribbled in, then pulled back.

Now midway through conference play, his evolution is apparent. Wroten saved a road win for Washington last weekend when he blocked the game-winning attempt by Arizona’s Josiah Turner. After switching against a pick, Wroten tracked down on help defense for the swat to end it. Help defense is as sexy as a hobbit. Wroten came through with the dazzle two days earlier when he crammed over a grounded Arizona State defender. Quickly, ESPN was cutting the tape to enter into its top 10.

[Undefeated]

Who does Wroten have on UW to work with besides Terrence Ross and C.J. Wilcox whom are both shooters? That's why I don't get this talk about Wroten not being able to set up an offense or being a massive black hole offensively when it's evident that the talent isn't there to work with to begin.

Still, I think Wroten's game is better suited in the NBA with the dribble-drive offense. The Raptors need a dynamic player, and Wroten is one. With his ability to penetrate defenses at will already playing in a packed paint at the collegiate level, imagine what he'll do in the NBA, and his stellar court-vision, he's going to create a plethora of open looks for Bargnani and DeRozan on the perimeter. Players that can draw attention with their slashing will always have an impact on the game. I was watching the game last night OKC vs. SAC, and Tyreke Evans just literally shed OKC's interior defense apart: turning the corner off the ball screen, driving to the basket often drawing 3 Thunder defenders making either the dump off pass down low for a dunk or finding Marcus Thornton for the 25-foot jumper. That's the sort of impact I envision Wroten having playing for the Raptors. What's not to like about that?

Of all the PGs in this class, he's by far outplaying every one of them. Despite playing with far superior talent on Kentucky, Marquis Teague hasn't looked any better than Wroten yet he gets no criticism? If you guys want a PG who can set up an offense, take Kendall Marshall or Aaron Craft then, but their ceiling is mad low. By no means am I advocating selecting Wroten with the lotto pick, but with a second pick in the late first-round or early second-round, you take the risk of taking a potential home run.

[Dr Positivity]

For some reason I'm feeling like we could pick Wroten. Wroten fits two things I feel like BC wants to do, a) Get an all-star talent, b) Leave Derozan, Bargnani, JVal as SG/PF/C of the future. Other than Barnes and MKG, Wroten is the guy who leaves the least ripples in the rest of our lineup, for what it's worth. Starting next season with Wroten, Derozan, JJ, Bargnani, Valanciunas kind of fits. That's a pretty exciting team to sell ones self on.

The question is whether he fits BC's character mantra. He sounds more like Russell Westbrook type in that article as an emotional guy who makes mistakes, but not a poor teammate

[fredericklove]

No thanks. Beal or River before Wroten.

[sunny]

Yeah, if you want to play like Tyreke then you'd better be good, even Tyreke is a negative impact player when he's not right. Wroten could be in the red many nights. The lack of guards in the draft doesn't make him a better player.

Here's a decent piece on Wroten from a week ago, NSIP:

http://theclassical.org/articles/tony-wroten-stays-home

After 21 games, Wroten’s stat line is swollen: 17.1 points, 4.6 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 2.0 steals, 3.0 personal fouls, 4.0 turnovers. But he has been all over the place. One massive end-game gaffe. One game-saving play. When a fed-up Romar told the team he was shortening its leash early in the season against Houston Baptist, he used Wroten to prove the point. Following a second no-look, negative-result pass, Wroten—whose court vision was one of his biggest selling points in high school—was yanked from the game. When he returned, he threw an accurate no-look. He penetrated and dropped a two-handed bounce pass to Gaddy, appearing to fight ingrained fibers in doing so. He dribbled in, then pulled back.

Now midway through conference play, his evolution is apparent. Wroten saved a road win for Washington last weekend when he blocked the game-winning attempt by Arizona’s Josiah Turner. After switching against a pick, Wroten tracked down on help defense for the swat to end it. Help defense is as sexy as a hobbit. Wroten came through with the dazzle two days earlier when he crammed over a grounded Arizona State defender. Quickly, ESPN was cutting the tape to enter into its top 10.

actually, Wroten is the reason why Arizona was able to get back into the game. Also, his last second block was an obvious foul that was not the smart play to do with .5 seconds left.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Usually when a highly scouted guy like Wroten gets written off for being of poor character/IQ it tends to stick. You really have to break the efficiency bank for NBA teams to put up with your #@$@, and right now he's just kinda doing ok. Right now he just seems like your typical Lance Stephenson/Bill Walker flavour of the year.

[Reignman]

I'm starting to feel like it's time to start pushing Drummond and PJ3 down a couple of notches. I'll give them a couple of more games but both guys have tin man syndrome, not a good look.

Now that doesn't mean they will forever play that way but it's a flag nonetheless.

Until now I thought Drummond would have the #2 pick on lock and PJ3 would go top 6 at worst. I'm not sure that is still going to be the case on draft night.

[Big Shot]

I'm starting to feel like it's time to start pushing Drummond and PJ3 down a couple of notches. I'll give them a couple of more games but both guys have tin man syndrome, not a good look.

Now that doesn't mean they will forever play that way but it's a flag nonetheless.

Until now I thought Drummond would have the #2 pick on lock and PJ3 would go top 6 at worst. I'm not sure that is still going to be the case on draft night.

I think BC would have hell of a job to determine who to draft if he gets a #2 pick.

[DreamTeam09]

^^

No he doesn't, he takes H.Barnes and then we are off to making other moves... the only thing he can do is gage how far down Barnes will be selected and possibly swing a deal with team 3-4-5 but I don't think Barnes slips that far..

[Dr Positivity]

I don't see us taking Drummond 2nd. I have no evidence for this but I just have a feeling BC loves Jeremy Lamb and is one of the few GMs who prefers him to Barnes or MKG